If anyone can help or offer any advice to find the answer to this question I would deeply appreciate it very much. Long story short my paternal grandfather committed suicide when he was 40 years old back in 1942. My dad was 9 and his older brother was 10 when they found him. My grandmother left my dad and his 4 siblings and her husband and went off with another man. At the time she took the 2 youngest kids they were 1 and 2. Anyway when my grandfather died, they were very very poor and had no money to be buried. So they took my grandfather to the city morgue and he was buried in potters field here in New York City. The question I have is that first there is no pictures of my grandfather who I would love to see. As told by my dad and his siblings their dad who did drink and worked off and on tried the best he could with the suituation and sadly decided his life was better to end. Anyway my dad heard from someone today at the veterans hospital he goes and see's his doctors, that if someone was buried in potters field and unclaimed that they take a photo of the deceased before being buried. Does anyone here know anything or how to find out any information. I do have his birth certificate and his death certificate, but again its almost as if he never lived except for these 2 papers and some memories of my dad and his 2 sisters who are living. My grandmother did go on and marry the other man and had 5 more kids. Total she had was 14 out of her 14 kids only 6 survive. So please any help to find any information I would sincerely appreciate from the bottom of my heart for me and my family and especially my dad. Peace. Catherine

First of all, no one is buried in a city morgue. A morgue typically is where indigent people, unclaimed people, or people dying suspiciously are taken.

You have to realize that each state operates differently and who knows how they operated way back then.

He most likely was buried in what is commonly referred to as Potter's field. It's a city/or/county owned cemetery for the purpose of burying indigent and unclaimed people. Typically the graves are unmarked as budgets didn't include markers.

I would find it very curious that cemetery personnel would have taken pictures since the caskets arrive closed and stay closed. Also in the 40's I would find it curious if even morgue personnel took pictures. In that era, it was more of a housekeeping thing, something they did on a rote basis to get it done. Today is different, there are layers of attempted documentation because as soon as someone could find a tidbit not quite right, a lawsuit would spring.

You should start with the current morge or medical examiner system there and see if they will allow you access to any records or share information. They may be very open with information since it's been approximately 60 years, or they may require proof that you are family. You could do that with his death certificate, your father's, and your's if I got the relationships correct.

It's also possible that a local library could have resources for you, or city hall. You have to start making inquiries. Good lluck.

dl

I think that the only people that were photographed are those that couldn't be identified.
They had a something on the news a few months back.

Finding relatives in Potter's Field - 2/04/09 - New York News and Tri-State News - 7online.com

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Deddlastt your correct my grandfather was brought to the city morgue and then buried in potters field. Like I mentioned before my dad and his 2 sisters who shared the same mother and father are the only ones who remember what my grandfather looked like more my dad because he was 10 however my aunts were younger 6 and 7. My dad also has 3 half siblings and never met my grandfather. I am going to try really hard to to try to find any information . Thanks again to all . Peace. Catherine

My mom works in a funeral home, and I know that they take pictures to keep in the individuals file. I don't know what the practice was back then, but now they do take pictures.

I am thinking that in 1942, it might have cost a lot to take pictures. I would think pictures back then were more of a luxury thing---wasn't it expensive? And didn't it take a while to TAKE the pic? It's not like today, with all of our cellphones having cameras. Now, anyone can snap a pic, no film required, no developing needed, heck, even the batteries are rechargable! Upload to the 'net, and share with the world in less than 30 seconds! I'm sorry, but I am thinking you are going to have a really hard time finding a picture of your grandfather. I'm sorry your family suffered through this sad tragedy. But don't give up---you might find some really interesting information out there about him, maybe even better than a picture. Good Luck!

I have tons of family pics from that time period and before. I don't know about the cost but my family was far from wealthy, so it couldn't have cost all that much. And of course cameras then required a roll of film, no batteries and somewhere to get the film developed. Taking the picture, by that time, only took a second. Getting the film developed probably took a week or two. But that was readily available as well. So there might be pictures somewhere.

Catherine, you might try asking your dad if there were family friends or relatives who might have some pictures. I know we got a surprise envelope in the mail a few years back of pictures that had been taken of my husbands mom on a trip to visit some relatives in another state years before. The original owner had died and the family thought we would be more interested in having them than they were. There might have been a neighbor with photos, or a distant relative. A friend of mine is heavily into genealogy and she might have some suggestions on where and how to look. She's out of town right now, but when she returns, I'll see if she has any ideas for you. BTW I have a memory like a steel sieve so if I haven't gotten back to you in a couple of weeks, PM me and remind me please.

Thanks to everyone for some help, like I said I have his death certificate and on it , it does state he was brought first to the city morgue and then taken to Harts Island where Potters field is in the Bronx of New York City. My father has tried to explain to me what his dad looked like, I do know this for sure my dad has very pretty blue/green eyes and my dad told me his dad had the same, he also told me that my grandfather has wavy blond hair, my paternal grandfather was 3/4 norweign sp ? and 1/.4 irish. I did some searching last nite and from some websites I was told that if a person has the orginal death certificate which we do and also if it reads that the person was taken first to the morgue that pictures was taken of the deceased. Again not 100 percent sure, the sad part is in finding out later in life there was room for him to be buried in several family plots, but because of the price of coffin and also because my grandmother left him and went with another man, we can only guess that was the reason for him to be buried in Potters field. Again my dad and his siblings were very very poor and any photos taken then would probably have been the last thing on their mind. I do however have a photo of my dad when he was 15 thats the youngest I have of him which I am grateful for. Thanks again. Peace. Catherine

I just had another thought. One of the things that was very, very typical in earlier years was a class picture each year in the school system. Almost all are taken on the front steps of the school, thus allowing for a class photo with fairly good headshots of all students behind the front row.

If you know the school, maybe the group shots are in a display case, hanging on the wall, archived, etc. I enjoy our country's history and have seen many of these. My great aunts/uncles on both sides had theirs, usually 8x10 size, framed with glass.

dl

deddlastt that is a great idea ,however I am not sure if my dad who was 10 at the time of his dad's death ever discussed where my grandfather went to school also he came here from Norway when he was 11 and his last name was shortned, we do know from my dad and his 2 remaining sisters that my grandfather worked on a tub boat and actually lived on one with my grandmother for 3 years with their 2 first born children. The strange thing for me is that the whole story behind my grandfather and his life which was so sad I find myself as I have gotten older I want to know more of this man who was my grandfather. I try to imagine his life , being a foreigner, being left with many young children to care for, having your wife leave you and move on with another man. Then on top jobs were so hard and of course alcohol played a part. But in the end to end his life so young, then to know you were buried in Potters field and no pictures of the man exists, its all so sad. Sorry to ramble on but the one thing I know for sure from stories told of my dad and his siblings when they were all alive is that my grandfather was a good man and good dad who was kind and tried the best he could in that time of his life. Thanks again to all. Peace. Catherine

My husbands family story is somewhat similar to yours, only earlier. His father came here from Norway in the twenties I think. His father was a ships captain who had lost his ship during a storm and it wiped him out financially and so several of the boys came here to make a living. My husbands mom was living and attending school in New York when they met. He was quite a bit older but he courted her for many years, during which time her father, (also from Norway and worked for the Salvation Army), dropped dead, leaving his wife, (another Norwegian with the SA), with 6 kids and no income just as the depression started.

It was rough but they all did well. The three oldest dropped out of school and took whatever jobs they could. None of them ever finished school but they all did fairly well. In fact my MIL was one of the first woman stock brokers.

Speaking just for myself personally, I think if I had not ever seen a relative before, I would not want the only image that I have of them to be a picture of them dead in a morgue. I'm not sure the deceased would want to be remembered that way either. That seems really strange to me. It just would not be that important to me and I'd prefer to concoct my own mental image or pursue other pictures or memories....but that's just me. YMMV, and it obviously does.

cj/

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I agree, but I my husband's family always took funeral pictures. That shocked me the first time we got that envelope in the mail, and as I said his family was also Norwegian, so maybe it's an ethnic or regional thing.

Sounds morbid to me. Once a loved one passes I would want to remebember the way they were in life. If I hadnt had the chance to meet them, a picture of them when they were living would be just fine.

Just my 2 cents.

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Brianna

When he immigrated to the US, do you know if he was processed through Ellis Island? I believe we were able to obtain family records through those records. If I recall correctly, there was a huge project underway some years back to make all those records accessible online.

Also, if you know his full name, it might be worth googling it. There are people who are really into the whole genealogy scene and if they knew your father's name it might appear in a family tree somewhere that they have put on the web hoping someone might 'find them' as they searched for those relatives that were missing links for them.

Are you referring to photos from an open casket wake? I guess I was thinking that the indigent would not likely receive mortuary services (whatever it's called to prep the body for viewing), but I guess I don't really know...

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Strangely, at least for awhile there, photos of the deceased were highly sought after on eBay. Children, especially. Very creepy and weird...

ETA: We have some very old family photos somewhere of deceased children being posed with their live siblings, as though they were all alive. The parents hadn't taken any photos of all of their children together, and then when a couple of them passed away (don't recall what accident happened) they posed them all together as though they were all alive and took pictures. Gives me the willies to look at them.

Yes, that's right. I was very surprised at the time because that's not something my family has ever done. And I'm sure you are right about the body preparation. But if there was no autopsy, the faces might be alright for a photo. I don't really know, not having dealt in that or even known anyone who has.

wowitsdark like I mentioned before he did come from Norway, not sure if he passed through Ellis Island I always thought all people who came from Europe did pass through Ellis Island, I have been thinking of him and this alot lately, however again my father is the oldest of his remaining siblings he is 76 and I am not sure if he would remember. Would you know for sure that anyone who did pass through Ellis Island if there picture was taken. Would you be able to offer the best website to find out any information, I would sincerely appreciate it very much. I do know that they did shortned his last name from Hendrickson to Hendricks my maiden name. To Cjs216, you are correct in some way as I have thought about this long and hard, I honestly would not want to remember my grandfather with this dead picture being the last photo of him, but then I think it might be the only picture I may ever have which I am not even sure. Cjs I also have tried in my mind from my dads memory and his siblings over the years to try to imagine my grandfathers image. The part that does make me happy is that over the years they have said my dad resembled him the most, talk and thin and fair skinned and blong wavy hair and the blue/green eyes. I also know and how heard of people who have taken pictures of their deceased relatives in the coffin, personally I could never do that . I sincerely appreciate who here who have given me any help and insight. Peace to all . Catherine

You might start by looking here:
Ellis Island - FREE Port of New York Passenger Records Search and also just googling his name as a previous poster mentioned. Many people do geneology as a hobby and have much info out there. You might also check your local library to see if they have help with researching geneology. I have a cousin that did our family's history and got so bitten by the bug that she holds classes and seminars, several of which are done at the librarty.

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It's about learning to dance in the rain.

It was, in the past, very common to take photos of the deceased. This was in part, due to respect that families had for each member (unlike what we are sinking into today) and in part to the long and difficult travel times for people to make it the the funeral. By having photos taken, they could then be kept or sent to those in other areas.

Babies, mainly, were put on postcards and mailed. Many, many pregnancies never made it full term and then when there was a successful birth, many of those children never made it through infancy. Their cards were predominantly white for innocence while those of the adults were black for mourning. You never wanted to receive a letter edged in black because it meant the contents would tell of a death. The black line would outline the envelope and note inside.

So many people think it morbid now to take pictures, however, they do videograph the service. There are many customs steeped in tradition (and done for valid reasons in that particular era) that this generation doesn't know about.

dl

dl personally I do not find it morbid at all, of course they would be for instance if someone a family member just passed away and say 2 days later your at the funeral and it someone wanted to take a photo I would not view it as morbid. However with my grandfather I do not know how long he stayed at the city morgue or how long it took to bury him and for those reasons I would not like as cjs 216 mentioned to be the picture I would want of him. Dead whether we like it or not is a part of life as you mentioned there are alot of taboo issues people believe in and practice in . While they may not be for me or you some people find it okay. Getting back to the op with my moms family they have so many old old photos while my dad like I said has so so few and also like I said the youngest photo I have of my dad is when he was 15. I am going to the ellis island website and see what I can find. I did not mention this before but I guess I will my dad told me after they found his fathers body, my grandmother never came to the house, she made her sister my great aunt Nellie handle the problem and also she placed 5 of her children my dad included in a home. I was told she did this because the man she left my grandfather for who was Italian did not want her 7 kids only the 2 youngest who were babies. Finally after several months they were all reunited. But as the story goes my grandmother went on to have several more children with this man, and he was very abusive to my dad and his siblings. Of course he only favored his children, my grandmother had 14 pregnancies from the ages of 17 till 44 and she died at 59 from liver cancer, at 59 she looked so old, I was only 7 years old when she passed so my memories of her are vague sad story. Sincerely hate to ramble on and on but there are times at my age now that I resent my grandmother for leaving her children, then I go back and say I was not in her shoes who really knows why she did what she did and honestly having resentment againist my grandma who is passed will not do me any good.Anyway ladies thanks for the vent and all your help I deeply appreciate it all. Peace. Catherine

I would ask for help at a geneology site. Somebody will help you there. You can also search for free at NaturalizationRecords.com for his naturalization papers and hope the link leads to photos. Ancestry.com has a lot of info but I don't know if they're free or not.

[quote=ILUVLUCY420;3282153]wowitsdark like I mentioned before he did come from Norway, not sure if he passed through Ellis Island I always thought all people who came from Europe did pass through Ellis Island, /QUOTE]

Well my husband has the impression that his grandmother on his mother's side came in through Seattle not Ellis Island. So not everyone did. He has no idea why this was, but since they were Salvation Army and moved around a lot, we are thinking that they were assigned to Canada at first and then migrated here.

This whole thread has got me wondering about the whys and wheres of his family. Mine have been here so long except for one branch and even they came before Ellis Island, that I think it might be more work that I want to do to track them down. But my husband's family is more recent so probably easier to find out about.

I'm wondering if the Salvation Army keeps those records. Does anyone know anything about that? The Ellis Island site is great. I found his father and even the picture of the ship he came here on. Thanks for that link cashchik.

I am going to go to the Ellis Island site and see if I can find any information or pictures of my paternal grandfather. Like I said he was 11 when he came from Norway with his mom and dad and 3 siblings, however again no pictures of none of them. From what my dad knows and has information is that his grandparents but died before he was born and are buried here in a cememtary in Queens New York, also of the three siblings of my grandfather 2 died very young also perhaps like early 30's again because of the suituation with my grandmother leaving there was no contact between the families. However my dad does know this one sibling of my grandfather moved away to Minnesota a sisiter his aunt I know her first name however that is all I know if she married and any family she may have had would be hard to find. She perhaps maybe would have had a picture of her brother my grandfather. She was older no I doubt she could be alive she would be like 106 years now. I am going to try to look up the last name and in Minnesota and perhaps my dad might have some cousins he never knew. Again years back one of my dads sisters who has since passed did a huge family history. While we have plenty of information on my paternal grandmother there is little of my dad, however again like I mentioned my great grandparents and their 2 other siblings are all buried here in New York and we have all that information, so there was room for my grandfather. But again because of the suituation my grandmother wanted nothing to do with his death and gave the body to the city morgue and hence they then brought it to Harts Island and then Potters Field to be buried. Looks like I have some work cut out for me. Thanks for the long vent and listening to all. Peace. Catherine

Catherine, just a word of warning, searching your family history can be like eating potato chips. Sometimes it's hard to stop once you get started. Especially if you like puzzles or treasure hunts.

My sweetie had a couple questions about his family and no living relatives to ask so I started looking into it for him. I was wound up in it for a long time and it wasn't even my birth family. It can be very fascinating.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

__________________

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass
It's about learning to dance in the rain.

As I said, not all came through Ellis. You might also check the west coast in Washington and Oregon. I know a lot of them settled there. Also the biggest bunch is probably in Minnesota and possibly the Dakotas. Ya dats so true. Ve haf da cusins in dose places as vell.

And I just had another thought. Try and see if there's a branch of The Son's of Norway in your area. They might have some ideas of where and how to look. Not only do the Son's of Norway like to party, (I hope you like oompah music and strong drinks), they usually have contacts in other parts of the country. If your grandfather hung with Norwegians, and they usually did, you might even find someone who knew him or of him.

Thanks for starting this thread C, I had started doing so research on my family history before my husband had the stroke, but had run into a stone wall with it just about the time of the stroke, so I had dropped it completely. I happened to click on the Ellis Island link that Cashchik had posted, hope you have had a chance to look at it. I only did a quick search on ONE of the spelling variations on my dad's last name,. I realized pretty quick that I am gonna have to gather up the names and dates of the family members that I have to do a real search. From the quick look I took at the site it has a LOT of good info. Hope you have luck with your search. Looks so far, like one thing you need in front of you is any birth, and death dates you have, plus full names and any possible variations, I have no clue, but I would assume, there may be miss spellings of some names also. Good Luck

My mother's brother (my uncle) died when he was 16 in a car accident in the
'30's. They took picture of him in the casket. When I was a kid, we happened on my grandmother's pictures in a box. If you lived on a farm (which they did), the wake was in the parlor of the house. Some houses had separate doors into the parlor for that purpose.

When you say possible variations regarding spelling of names, be prepared. Many, many surnames were shortened or incorrectly spelled for the convenience of those working at Ellis. I've talked to and know many people who do know this for a fact because they have documentation of their grandparents, great grandparents, and further back with the actual name, or were told.

Fascinating stuff.

dl

Sure is I am thousands of dollars and hours into my research and 10 fully proven generations back on one side, 4 on the other, plus I took some side trips on some of the "limbs" of the family tree when I found some fascinating stuff.

I have spent many middle of the night forays into researching and found a cousin on my fathers side who is alive and kicking that I was told had passed away who has helped open up some brick walls and he lives less than an hour from me and mom here in Florida. We're meeting up after DH gets here to look over family photos I have never seen of my Dad's Grandmother and Grandfather and some of my Grandfather its going to be so much fun to see the younger pictures of Dad and Grandpa and the older 1800's era pictures which there are few and far between. He wants to see the Deeds I have to the cemetery plots in IL and try to help decipher who is there and where so we can perhaps finally get some headstones for long lost family members buried there and determine if there are any empty spaces we can use in the future for him and his wife or sell.

I have been going through research withdrawels here because all my hard copies are in VA, I always keeps hard paper copies, then scan them and input in the PC and back up on the external hard drive I have lost many years of research in a PC crash before.

Its fun, Catherine if you want I would be more than happy to help you look I have a paid membership at Ancestry.com, I maybe slow with all the stuff going on here with DH and DS getting here, buying a home and packing but I can try to look stuff up for you during break time. You know how to reach me.

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~ Christine ~
Grammie to Trinity Lorayne Jean Keens Born June 9, 2011 Loving my awesome guitar picking 100% Country Boy boyfriend Kenny !
RIP Daddy~ 01/24/1930-06/01/2007 I miss you !
Dont Think you Can .. know you can ~ Jeff Hardy

Again ladies thanks for all your help and to Christine I will just take you up on the offer. Since you have facebook did you see the picture I posted of my dad when he was 20 years old I did it on Friday night. If you did not see you can view his old photos under my flippin old photos. Like I said from reading here it seems like alot of work . I also mentioned that they did shortned his last name from Hendrickson to Hendricks. My dad also has the name of the tug boat company he worked for so there is another lead, however not sure if they took any photos of their employees back then. Again to all the ladies here who offered any help I sincerely appreciate it very much. I will post any updates if I find anything. Peace. Catherine.

Catherine it is common for names to be shortened, mis-spelled even on census or even first names to be shortened nicknames used or middle names used as first names. Like my Mom's Dad his Name was Frederick Roch, I have found him as Roch, Fred, Frederick, Frederic, F. R. ,Roc and Fredrick the only way I knew it was him was his wife and the various children listed since there were 9 out of 11 living.

I did see the picture I have been gone most of the day to a baby shower, send me a note on Facebook with what information you know, birthdate, death, names and variations of it, spouse, parents if known and of course kids and any siblings he may have had and the area where you believe he may have been I know you said NY and I will look around and see if I can find anything over the next few weeks of any substance for you.

__________________
~ Christine ~
Grammie to Trinity Lorayne Jean Keens Born June 9, 2011 Loving my awesome guitar picking 100% Country Boy boyfriend Kenny !
RIP Daddy~ 01/24/1930-06/01/2007 I miss you !
Dont Think you Can .. know you can ~ Jeff Hardy

Ok Christine will do that is so sweet of you to offer to help, you already have so much on your plate with your mom. I will send you a personal message on facebook with all the information I have. Thanks hon I sincerely appreciate it very much. Peace. Catherine