I have had my fair share of helping to raise MANY MANY children over the years. Currently I have been helping a friend with her two grandbabies that she has custody of. She has FULL custody through social services and the mother can only visit when she comes to their house. Their mom is 20 years old and hops from house to house living wherever she can.One is 18 months and one is 5 & 1/2 months now. I have babysat them Both since they were 2 weeks old. Almost every weekend Grandma(whom is a friend of mine) drops them off at my house at 4 pm on Friday and Picks them Up Sunday night around 10 pm when she gets out of work or Monday when she gets up. She ONLY works weekends. Basically you could say I am a part time Mommy to these two since I have them 3 or 4 days a week. I love them to pieces. There was a time I was going to adopt them both but the Biological mother said she won't allow it even though she does not want to raise them...that's another long story and Not one I am gonna visit today.

Now..The problem is when the New baby was born the Older one started immediately being jealous. I know that's normal so I and gram tried to make sure time spent with the Older child was just as frequent as possible one on one.She had just turned a year a month before her sister was born. Anyways the Jealousy has not stopped much at all. Also the 18 mo. old does NOT listen to NO at all. I and the gram have tried several approaches and NONE are working. We have tried a tap on the hand,a tap on the butt, short time outs, etc. She will hit her baby sister alot. Throw things and scream ..And she is VERY loud. It can be over someone holding her sister,or maybe she did not get a cookie or something that she wanted or maybe because someone leaves or can be for no reason at all.She has on many occasions thrown her sippy cup at her sister..today in fact twice she did and now the poor baby has a bump on her head. I do not have the babies now...I was just talking with the gram because she is at wits end as to what to do to get this temper tantrum to stop.

We have even tried getting The older one to be involved when feeding the younger one or hold both at same time so she does not feel neglected etc.

I have seen times where She will throw herself on the floor and scream and scream and kick. When that happens I normally try many things...including ignoring her tantrum and not giving her what she wants..if that does not work then i try the picking her up and cuddling to see if that calms her..If that does not work and she is still giving a fit I will put her either in the playpen till she calms down or in her crib for a nap.

However this is a daily occurance and I have honestly gotten frustrated to the point that I will put her in the playpen and give myself a time out in another room because I do NOT want to yell at her because I know that solves nothing but Constant screaming brings it to a level where i want to. So I need a few minutes away from her to calm me down.

Now I started recently..about 2 weeks ago taking the older one out on the front porch with me...she loves to be out there but still does not listen at all.

I would think by this age when she is repeatedly told no not to do something eventually she would listen,

For instance she stands on the couch and runs back and forth and I will say NO,Sit down..She will look at me with a big grin and totally ignore me and remain standing. I will then get up and as walking toward her she sits down. Don't you think after hundreds of times of doing the same thing she would learn standing is not acceptable and sit..Or at least sit the first time i say sit and not wait until i get up to head to her. Once I get to her I always take her OFF the couch or whatever she was standing on and place her on the floor to show that No we do not stand and sitting fast before I get to you is Not going to mean you get to stay on the furniture.

Now at 18 months old the only words she says is..Dog,baba(which she no longer gets),byebye,kitty and mama & dadda She does not even see her mama & dadda that often..they are both selfish people who want someone else to raise them.

The mother actually wants MONEY when asked to come watch the kids..CRAZYY! The father and Mother might see the babies once a month..both are pissed that they have to pay $15 a week child support and the Father actually said that to my face once. I was not holding back lemme tell ya..I said are You serious? $15 a week??? That does not even cover diapers! Then tehre is clothing,food,wipes,formula, and the list goes on! I told him sorry You need to grow up because I am not even their mother and I spend Money on these kids left and right and NEVER ever would complain about that because I love them and they depend on us ADULTS to survive. How could you complain about a Measly $15 a week. SO sad. ok rant over about him..again I could go on and on but again thats not why I posted.



Anyways I need advice..I know that MANY people have children on here so any advice is appreciated. I was thinking maybe she even needs to have her evaluated to see if she needs special help with behavioral issues or ..like I said Maybe i have just been lucky up till now and this is normal and I just never experience it with the other children I have watched.

Thanks for any advice.

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~*~Live life to the fullest*~*

No great advice, but one thing to keep in mind is that you're dealing with a child who is living a very abnormal life. It sounds like you are giving her great care and that she is loved by many people, which is awesome in one regard... but very atypical in another. Normally a child that age would have just one or two voices/parental figures - a mom and a dad, and perhaps a daytime babysitter - but she apparently has a mom and a dad who separately come and go for visits, and two 'homes' she bounces back and forth from, both yours and her grandma's. She hasn't established a single primary bond, and the multiple come-and-go situations she experiences at that young age have probably left her without a person she considers THE sole voice of authority in her world. That means when any of you tell her what not to do, you aren't *the* final-final word, kwim?

I can tell you what to do about the temper tantrums. It is of supreme importance that you remain unimpressed. The next time she starts, acknowledge her anger. Tell her that you worry about her hurting herself as she thrashes about and to please go to her room until she wants to be with people again. Because you reacted in the past by cuddling, you will probably have quite a few ore episodes.

The fact that she smiles when you tell her to stop tells me that she is getting the reaction that she wants from you. She knows exactly what she's doing. She is testing you. She thinks she is winning.

You cannot tolerate her bad behaviour. The next time that she does not obey, put her in time out, facing the wall, or send her to her room. In a child her age, 10 minutes ought to do it. Does she have something like a doll or a bear that she's attached to? You can take that away. 10 minutes ought to do it.

A lot of children have more than one caregiver. In fact, most do. It's no excuse for bad behaviour.

Gee, she'll be 2 in 6 months.

It sounds like this little girl has a situation that is much different than a 'caregiver'. That's not a criticism of anyone whatsoever. It sounds like everyone is doing as much as they possibly can to be there for this little girl. That's a good thing.

But a 'caregiver' is a babysitter. It doesn't sound like this little girl has anyone she can categorize as her *parent* and the dominant voice of authority. Personalities are basically formed by the time a child is... what is it? Six years old? Five? This little girl is about 30% - 40% of the way to that milestone and has had a lot of attachment chaos. That, on top of tendencies that are completely typical for a child her age and in her situation with a new baby, well... I just don't think it can be discounted that she does a lot of going from house to house with 'mom' and 'dad' coming and going at random times.

It just adds a whole atypical element to things. I think that normally kids who have a healthy bond with their parents - or a grandparent - see the behaviors taught in that venue as foundational, basic, expectations. And then if they have a caregiver with a different set of rules, they establish the understanding that *this* is okay when I'm at daycare, but the *real* way is the way my mommy and daddy have me do it. Ultimately the values they internalize come from the people they have the primary bond with.

This little girl, through nobody's fault but that of her irresponsible bio parents, has her grandma (is there a grandad?) who should be in that role, but schedules mean, according to the OP, that the toddler spends almost a full one half of her lifetime *not* in the care of that grandma, and that separation comes in the form of *days* in a row, not just from 9-5.

It's just not typical, and could be contributing to the fact that *neither* caregiver has the benefit of being the sole voice of authority. It doesn't mean the grandmother OR the OP are doing anything but the best they possibly can - it is just a factor that shouldn't be dismissed. It sounds like both of them are trying all sorts of tactics and she's not getting one set, expected response from *both* of them.

I do think it sounds like a good plan not to feed the beast. I assume in her little head she thinks it is funny because she knows it gets a rise out of the adults.... but no consequence bad enough to overshadow the fun of the fuss she knows she is causing.

Oh my goodness................this situation sounds very similar to what we have been through. weird.

I can tell you, after spending time with a child psychologist, that some of the behavior of the 18 month old will be due to some attachment disorders. The older sibling to Faith really deals with some issues that Faith doesn't. Raising this child is going to be difficult and my suggestion is talking to professionals that can help. It does sound like at this point you are doing all the right things, and the advice here is the same as what I would give.

Oh my gracious, I would love to talk to you. Please read my thread "Faith.."

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Melissa

An 18 mo old will not understand why she's in time out or the corner. If you insist on trying it she should be put in for 2 min. tops. Guideline is 1 min. per year. Ignore the tantrums, they will eventually stop. (My dd threw them, banged her head against stuff, etc. She stopped, she lived and so did I).

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I've never lied to you. I've always told you some version the of truth.

Nah, I think she is big enough to understand why she is in the corner. It's something of a Pavlovian response. Act a certain way, and a specific thing always happens. Babies much younger than 18 months make connections like that.

Personally, though, I don't think the corner is a great solution, just because I think there isn't anything painful about that consequence. It lasts virtually no time and it does engage the caregiver... which is exactly the little girl's objective.

I don't think a 'tap' on the hand or the bottom is the answer, either. A tap isn't a consequence of any magnitude and not worth avoiding. Like the corner thing, it engages the adult, which was the objective of misbehaving in the first place.

I am sure this won't be popular, but I'd go with a real live single swat on the butt and make her sit down on the couch with nobody else in the room. She'll get up the minute the caregiver leaves the room, and the caregiver needs to then just walk back in and do the swat and the sit maneuver a second time... and a third.... etc.

I don't think it would take long with that method if applied consistently would work wonders.

The thing is... it's not just about this current behavior. It's about the little girl either developing the mindset that it is a game to mess with adults, or that the adults in her life set the boundaries and she is to live within them. Kids are actually more secure and at peace when they *have* boundaries and have the ability to pleasantly exist within them. A child who is allowed to sit around and think of ways to get to the adults all day is developing personality traits that won't serve her well.

It is important for her to learn to obey authority figures who are appropriately directing her. She doesn't have the level of cognition to recognize right from wrong. All she really gets at this age is action = consequence... and at her age, the only consequence that has any effect, IMHO, is the "Ouch! That hurt!" factor.

And please note... I said a single swat on the butt. I assume she is a diaper and there will be next to no real pain. The surprise and the slight sting will be unpleasant, and the short separation from the adult who walks away and refuses to engage her will take all the fun out of it, and help develop the mindset that, "Grandma says.... I do... 'cause it's not fun when I don't!"

Most mothers work. Their children are either cared for in a daycare situation ot someone comes to the home. This isn't unusual at all.

There's no need to swat the child.

Did you catch the part where the OP said that the child is with her 3-4 days a week, has been since she was 'basically a part time Mommy" to the child. The child doesn't just go over to the OP's house during the day; she spends nights there, and they are 'close enough' that there was actually a plan/hope for the OP and her husband to adopt both children.

To me, that means the *bonds* are skewed from what is typical and the child may not have developed the appropriate perception as to who she is supposed to listen to in terms of who sets the primary code of behavior for her.

It sounds like the adults are at their wits ends, and none of them even have her full time, 24/7, seven days a week. The OP said she has been a caregiver to a number of children in this age range and has never had a problem like this one before. That, to me, says that the OP must be good at what she does, but something different is going on with this child. And to me, the glaring issue is that the child probably has not attached to a single primary adult and that will make training her to have self-control a more difficult venture than one might typically have to deal with.

That's not the OP's fault or Gram's fault. It's the fault of the bio-parents. It's commendable that the adults in her life who do care about her want to help her develop the necessary skill of self-discipline and appropriate obedience. I just think they have an extra factor they need to be mindful of that most children who have either a full-time parent or a parent and part-time caregiver lifestyle don't have to deal with as often.

Did the mother do alcohol while pregnant or drugs?
Has the child been tested for autism or other disorders?
You sound like you can normally control this type of behavior so I'm thinking that something else is going on here. Does she have a baby doll? If so, how does she play with the doll? Is she more abusive than you would expect?
How does she behave when the baby is not around?
Do you have a playpen? You might put her in it for a couple of minutes and leave the room with the baby when she misbehaves

Her pediatrician should be alerted to her behavior and might have thoughts on what to do with her.

Have you tried to see if the child is allergic to milk/wheat? My nephew was like this. He is 2 and still getting over his issues. His brother is 9 months and doing the same thing as this child. He would hit his brother, throw stuff at him, bite him, not listen to no, wouldn't care if he would get his butt spanked or put in time out, he still did the same thing again. They took him off milk/wheat products and he did get better. My friend also had the same problem with her son when he was little. It could be an allegry. Just a thought.

I think, at this point, if it has gotten this bad, while you and grandma are caring, as unfortunate as it sounds, bio mom just needs to give up her rights, and find a family who would totally be willing to adopt and love her child.

Amen to that Linnybop. I know it's been going on since the beginning of time, but ppl have kids and don't want to take care of them, but won't 'part" with them either. Then, they 'get their life together" and once again want to disrupt the lives of the children to fulfill their own needs, which is where it all started in the first place. SO, who pays??? The kids. Always the kids. But the law says the children "belong" to the parent, their possessions you know. attachment disorders abound........ugh.

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Melissa

I think your insight is right on the money.

I feel so sorry for this little girl

first I want to thanks you all for the great advice.

I love these girls like they were mine and at the moment the gram and I are moving towards the step of me having full custody of them. The gram has 4 children age 12 to 20 with the 20 yrs old being the mom of her grandbabies that she raises. She is frustrated because she does not want to see these babies in foster care where she has visitation etc. because she wants them in her life but she is at wits end raising them and her 3 kids. So she has asked if we would take them and of course I said yes.

I want to make sure that there is a way I can adopt them in the future BUT Even if that does not happen I still want them now. I know they need a permanant home where they are not dealing with bouncing from house to house all week.

Nothing is set in stone but Next week we are going to have a talk with her case worker and see what we can do.

Morgan's issues with tantrums etc. hopefully will get better with time and if not I will look into possibly having her looked at by a doctor and seeing what they think.

I am just going to keep up the same as I have with taking her off the furniture and putting her in time out in the playpen etc.

Thanks again everyone!

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~*~Live life to the fullest*~*

Talk to the child's pediatrician - he/she should have some good advice for you (or the gram). That is probably the first place to start.

Honestly, I think there are lots of issues going on here. This little girl has a lot going on in her life. I think ignoring the tantrums or not showing that they bother you would be a good first step. For negative behavior -- hitting her sister, running on the couch, throwing things, be firm and consistent, but don't get upset or even react other than telling her 'no' and then removing her from the situation. Having her stand in the corner facing the wall for a minute or two should work well (the guideline is one minute/year of age, so for 18 months it would be 1.5 minutes) for a child of this age. Just take her calmly to the 'naughty spot' and have her stand there. You will probably have to keep putting her back in the spot at first, but after awhile she will get the idea. The key is just to stay calm and not let her see that she has upset you. I think she is trying to get attention and doesn't care if it is positive or negative.