I suppose what bothers me most about the Ted Kennedy coverage is that we, as a society, tend to discuss and celebrate public figures that do not seem to be very moral people. He supported some issues that were worthy but, in general, conducted his life in a very questionable manner (as did JFK and Bobby Kennedy).

Why is it more important these days to be outwardly personable and charming regardless of whether you conduct your life in a manner that is respectable and kind?

Just asking......

I think because many people are shallow and the value system in this country has gone downhill.......

Thank you for stating it so nicely! ITA

You have very valid points. We idolize many who are unworthy. We idolize many who have less talent than made out to have.

Why don't we idolize our military heroes? Why don't we idolize the fathers who work, spend time with their kids, and love their wives? Why don't we idolize the mothers who work, spend time with their kids, and love their husbands?

Let's have headlines on the front page about students who have academically been successful. I could go on, but you get the idea. To me, regular people, staying the course and doing right as best they can are those worth celebrating.

dl

Kennedy himself acknowledged that he made many mistakes in his life, but I wonder what you think he's done in the past several years that was questionable? I think that around the time he married Vicki, Kennedy finally got his act together and devoted the rest of his life to doing good.

He caused an accident where someone died, which he acknowledged was a terrible thing he'd done. He was criminally charged and paid the debt the criminal justice system demanded of him.

He was a bit of a boozer, which he gave up.

Beyond that, what "questionable" manner did he conduct his life?

Helping to raise his brother's children, the vast majority of whom became highly successful adults?
Helping to raise three accomplished and articulate children?
Fighting for the rights of the disenfranchised?
Fighting for health care for children?
Fighting for health care for the poor?
Ensuring a free and complete public education for children?
Fighting for the rights of family members to take leave from their jobs to care for their sick family members?
Fighting for the right of the mentally ill to receive treatment?
Fighting for nutritional labeling on the foods we buy?
Fighting to support research to find a cure for HIV/AIDS?

We should all be so questionable in our accomplishments.

Can you tell me, aside from the Chappaquiddick tragedy, what part of Kennedy's life do you find "questionable"?

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Reading is Fundamental.

In my opinion we all do things that are questionable morally to other people who don't feel the same way we do or hold the same values. All I can say is Thank God people don't hold things I did twenty thirty or forty years ago against me. Times change we change we grow we look back and wish we would have said or done things differently.

If Mother Teresa had a crack habit or liked young Asian gigolos would that have made the worthy work she did of less value? I think not. It may make us feel pity or sorrow or wonder why but the good works someone does are still good works.

PS if you can find someone in politics that is morally above the rest of us let me know. I doubt you will.

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Well, I don't celebrate these people, dead or alive!
I believe in morality above all else.
I sincerely believe that this is what God expects of me (us).
I can appreciate the good deeds that people do but that doesn't mean that I have to respect their ways.
If we all would pray for these people, it could do some good.

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I celebrate the good work that Ted Kennedy did during his lifetime. The country still needs him. I also celebrate the fact that he was intelligent enough to know that a person submerged for more than 15 minutes in water would not survive.

The day he died, someone on my FB posted "rest in peace Mary Jo Kopechne"
I think that said it all.

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Melissa

remember Haiti
http://bonsamaritan.org/earthquake_update

He is so special. Unlike our vets entitled to be buried at ANC, he was buried on a Saturday, and his family didn't have to wait the typical 1 - 2 months or longer because of scheduling.

THAT is what irritates me. He deserves no special treatment at ANC, and yet the Kennedy family got it.

dl

truble2301 thanks so much for all your post about Ted Kennedy was he better then the regular American Citizen no way, do I support our troops yes but I do not like War, I want them home. Again never said Ted Kennedy was a saint nor was his brothers but they did do many wonderful things for our country and that is all I want to be remembered but I yes sadly as always its always comes back to politics and what side your on and that is basically the truth as was proven. Oh well may he rest in peace beside his brothers. Peace. Catherine

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in memory of my beloved beautiful brother Sonny who is now an angel in heaven

A bit of a boozer? That's like saying the Pope is a bit of a Catholic! lol I don't think anyone doubts his political contributions. However, his personal life was more of a mess. He did settle down with his new wife Vicki but prior to that he was a boozing womanizer. Not to mention poor Mary Jo and cheating on a Spanish exam at Harvard, Personally I don't have much respect for boozing womanizers.

I think this whole glory to the undeserving starts way back in school! Think of your high school class and who was "cool" and who wasn't. It was usually the athletes and the popular kids even if they were drinking and promisicious (sp), etc... The "brains" were not high fived and cheered at rallies.

And yet, the GOP was all excited about Sarah Palin's word salads. You rejected every word Obama had to say instead embracing Palin and her folksy knowledge of foreign affairs. (She thought Africa was a country)

Some people manage to have brains and athletic abilty.

It was the work that Ted Kennedy did that made 50,000 people line up to pay their respects, He did deserve the special treatment that he received at Arlington. Much as you may not understand it, Kennedy's constituents loved him.

You do know, I hope, that George W. Bush was every bit as big a drunk as Kennedy.

Everyone, hold on to your hats..... I agree with what Truble has said. I did not follow Sen. Kennedy much. However, I have read and watched quite a bit over the past few days about him...... he wrote letters to 9/11 widows and other people, to see how they were doing. In his own time of need, he thought of others. How many of us could say the same?

I do agree with your general question about how people live, and who we idolize. Look at Michael Vick. I don't, however, feel it pertains to Ted Kennedy.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Now THAT bothers me. I understand he "served" his country. I don't believe it was in the same capacity as our military, or with the same amount of sacrifice. Yes, why the special treatment for his burial? Security reasons maybe???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Did he stop all this?? Do you have respect for a person who turns their life around?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I don't think that Michael Vick is feeling any love. He's not only done time; he lost everything. He deserves a second chance.

I think many of Ted Kennedy's public causes were worthy, but I cannot call him a "great man". I do not respect many of the choices he made in his life. I am happy that many people in this world have been able to change for the better, but it would be nice to hear more about those that made the kind/moral/responsible choices all along- they are probably more deserving of our applause.

Allinaugust thanks for mentioning what the late Senator Ted Kennedy did for the widows of 9/11 and their families, he made it a point to personally call each one , but he did not stop there, he kept calling to make sure they were okay. He also fought through red tape to get them assistance and grief counseling. Again to me he was a very powerful public figure with morals and if his memorial service and all the people that attended and spoke were not proof then I honestly do not know what to say. I will say this while I was not happy with ex president Bush and of course the war, if sadly he passed away tomorrow, I would feel sorry I did not hate him I just did not agree with how he ran our country, but I will tell you this I would not be jumping so fast to dig up his past because mostly all public figures especially in the political world have skeltons in their closets, a post about him passing away would not be the place to talk about such things. Rest in peace Senator Kennedy and prayers to your family... Peace. Catherine

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in memory of my beloved beautiful brother Sonny who is now an angel in heaven

He did not deserve special treatment at ANC. Especially when the families of our vets have to wait 1 - 2 months or longer for burial there, and then Saturdays are not available. He is no more noble than our volunteer forces. He is no more deserving than those who gave their life, or earned the right by serving on active duty.

Ah but the Kennedy clan gets special treatment......Jackie should not be buried there because she remarried. By remarrying, she gave up her right to be buried with John, but it happened anyway.

dl

c7j:
Bush was a boozer
Glen Beck was a boozer
Rush Limbaugh(?) was a drug addict
they all turned their life around, do you think less of them now?

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Yes, I respect people who turn their lives around and I know he cut down but I'm not sure he gave it up.

Bush WAS a big drunk. As far as I know that was a long, long time ago. I don't think Ted was completely dry up to his death. I would like you to find evidence about your statement that Mary Jo lived at most 15 minutes in that car. I would really like to see where you got that. All I can find are the quotes in the court docs from the diver who said she may have had up to two hours and that there were claw marks on the ceiling which also proves she was alive for awhile. Please provide a link for your statement. Thanks.

There are some things I find interesting about threads like this.

Time and again on this board, the left has brought up:

1) Bush's past boozing habits, and one or two posters has suggested that they do not believe he ever really gave it up;

2) Bush's family connections being the reason his career in politics was launched in the first place;

3) Bush's less-than-top-of-the-class grades in college

4) Bush getting into college based on his family name alone

5) Bush's military service or lack thereof, and the possibility that family connections kept him from ever seeing a battlefield

Where Kennedy is concerned:

1) His past boozing habits may never have been completely buried in 'the past' and his led to a death

2) Kennedy had a connection or two. 'Nuff said.

3) His pre-college grades have been described as 'ordinary' and 'mediocre'. In college, he was ranked in middle of his class.

4) His pre-college grades were not really Harvard-level, and yet he not only got in, but was re-admitted after a period of being expelled due to cheating

5) Kennedy's father's connections kept him from being deployed to the Korean War; instead he ended up stationed in Europe where he got to climb the Matterhorn and partied hard.

I just think it's interesting that those who would still crucify Bush for past issues are so ready to excuse almost identical situations as "all in the past" when it comes to Kennedy.

While I'm still floored by the whole, "Mary Jo was dead anyway, so what's the big deal that he left her there?" attitude here on the board, if he asked for forgiveness, so be it. That was all happening at around the time I was born, so other than the fact that I think he was a selfish pig of a guy back then, I really don't have much frame of reference regarding those events. The fact that he was such a boozer, such a womanizer, and that he would just leave the scene and go visit about yachting boggles my mind. To me that means that at least at *that* time in his life, he was more interested in self-preservation than doing the right thing. If character is what is demonstrated in crisis moments, then he failed that test.

But that doesn't mean he wasn't eventually remorseful and that that event didn't shape him in beneficial ways. I was not a fan and didn't follow him closely, so I really have no opinion one way or the other about that.

I just know that I generally disagreed with his politics, and that if I'd ever had a daughter his age, I wouldn't have let her date him. lol

Don't you just love it when you post something valid and intelligent and everyone ignores it because then they don't have to think about the other side of it.

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Eat Chinese food you'll be hungry in half an hour. Eat Italian food you'll be hungry in two weeks!

Your lovely Ted Kennedy that you all want to idolize:

1. He was caught cheating at Harvard when he attended it. He was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him.

2. While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. Oops! The man can't count to four! His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England (a step up from bootlegging liquor into the US from Canada during prohibition), pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea , where a war was raging. No preferential treatment for him! (like he charged that President Bush received).

3. Kennedy was assigned to Paris , never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.. Imagine a person of his "education" NEVER advancing past the rank of Private!

4. While attending law school at the University of Virginia , he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked. Coincidentally, he passed the bar exam in 1959. Amazing!

5.. In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. Test results done by the hospital at the time he was admitted had shown he was legally intoxicated. The results of those tests remained a "state secret" until in the 1980's when the report was unsealed. Didn't hear about that from the unbiased media, did we?

6. On July 19, 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts . At about 11:00 PM, he borrowed his chauffeur's keys to his Oldsmobile limousine, and offered to give a ride home to Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker. Leaving the island via an unlit bridge with no guard rail, Kennedy steered the car off the bridge, flipped, and into Poucha Pond.

7. He swam to shore and walked back to the party, passing several houses and a fire station. Two friends then returned with him to the scene of the accident. According to their later testimony, they told him what he already knew - that he was required by law to immediately report the accident to the authorities. Instead Kennedy made his way to his hotel, called his lawyer, and went to sleep. Kennedy called the police the next morning and by then the wreck had already been discovered. Before dying, Kopechne had scratched at the upholstered floor above her head in the upside-down car.


The Kennedy family began "calling in favors", ensuring that any inquiry would be contained. Her corpse was whisked out-of-state to her family, before an autopsy could be conducted. Further details are uncertain, but after the accident Kennedy says he repeatedly dove under the water trying to rescue Kopechne and he didn't call police because he was in a state of shock. It is widely assumed Kennedy was drunk, and he held off calling police in hopes that his family could fix the problem overnight. Since the accident, Kennedy's "political enemies" have referred to him as the distinguished Senator from Chappaquiddick. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and was given a SUSPENDED SENTENCE OF TWO MONTHS. Kopechne's family received a small payout from the Kennedy's insurance policy, and never sued. There was later an effort to have her body exhumed and autopsied, but her family successfully fought against this in court, and Kennedy's family paid their attorney's bills... a "token of friendship"?


8. Kennedy has held his Senate seat for more than forty years, but considering his longevity, his accomplishments seem scant. He authored or argued for legislation that ensured a variety of civil rights, increased the minimum wage in 1981, made access to health care easier for the indigent, and funded Meals on Wheels for fixed-income seniors and is widely held as the "standard-bearer for liberalism". In his very first Senate roll, he was the floor manager for the bill that turned U.S. immigration policy upside down and opened the floodgate for immigrants from third world countries.

9. Since that time, he has been the prime instigator and author of every expansion of an increase in immigration, up to and including the latest attempt to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Not to mention the pious grilling he gave the last two Supreme Court nominees, as if he was the standard bearer for the nation in matters of "what's right". What a pompous ass!

There are two sides to each story.

__________________
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Your lovely Ted Kennedy that you all want to idolize:

1. He was caught cheating at Harvard when he attended it. He was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him.

2. While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. Oops! The man can't count to four! His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England (a step up from bootlegging liquor into the US from Canada during prohibition), pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea , where a war was raging. No preferential treatment for him! (like he charged that President Bush received).

3. Kennedy was assigned to Paris , never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.. Imagine a person of his "education" NEVER advancing past the rank of Private!

4. While attending law school at the University of Virginia , he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked. Coincidentally, he passed the bar exam in 1959. Amazing!

5.. In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. Test results done by the hospital at the time he was admitted had shown he was legally intoxicated. The results of those tests remained a "state secret" until in the 1980's when the report was unsealed. Didn't hear about that from the unbiased media, did we?

6. On July 19, 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts . At about 11:00 PM, he borrowed his chauffeur's keys to his Oldsmobile limousine, and offered to give a ride home to Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker. Leaving the island via an unlit bridge with no guard rail, Kennedy steered the car off the bridge, flipped, and into Poucha Pond.

7. He swam to shore and walked back to the party, passing several houses and a fire station. Two friends then returned with him to the scene of the accident. According to their later testimony, they told him what he already knew - that he was required by law to immediately report the accident to the authorities. Instead Kennedy made his way to his hotel, called his lawyer, and went to sleep. Kennedy called the police the next morning and by then the wreck had already been discovered. Before dying, Kopechne had scratched at the upholstered floor above her head in the upside-down car.


The Kennedy family began "calling in favors", ensuring that any inquiry would be contained. Her corpse was whisked out-of-state to her family, before an autopsy could be conducted. Further details are uncertain, but after the accident Kennedy says he repeatedly dove under the water trying to rescue Kopechne and he didn't call police because he was in a state of shock. It is widely assumed Kennedy was drunk, and he held off calling police in hopes that his family could fix the problem overnight. Since the accident, Kennedy's "political enemies" have referred to him as the distinguished Senator from Chappaquiddick. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and was given a SUSPENDED SENTENCE OF TWO MONTHS. Kopechne's family received a small payout from the Kennedy's insurance policy, and never sued. There was later an effort to have her body exhumed and autopsied, but her family successfully fought against this in court, and Kennedy's family paid their attorney's bills... a "token of friendship"?


8. Kennedy has held his Senate seat for more than forty years, but considering his longevity, his accomplishments seem scant. He authored or argued for legislation that ensured a variety of civil rights, increased the minimum wage in 1981, made access to health care easier for the indigent, and funded Meals on Wheels for fixed-income seniors and is widely held as the "standard-bearer for liberalism". In his very first Senate roll, he was the floor manager for the bill that turned U.S. immigration policy upside down and opened the floodgate for immigrants from third world countries.

9. Since that time, he has been the prime instigator and author of every expansion of an increase in immigration, up to and including the latest attempt to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Not to mention the pious grilling he gave the last two Supreme Court nominees, as if he was the standard bearer for the nation in matters of "what's right". What a pompous ass!

There are two sides to each story.

__________________
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Is the diver a coroner? No one witnessed her death as far as I know. I wasn't there and you weren't either.

I do believe that he made repeated dives to try and get her out. I do not believe, as you apparently do, that he escaped from the car and casually strolled off.

It was a sad and tragic event. Teddy cared about people. That's all he did before Chappaquiddick; that's what he did afterwards. He served people from all walks of life.

Bush quit drinking when the girls were little. Kennedy when he met Vickie. It's about the same amount of time, I really do not care if Kennedy had a drink every single day.

I'm pretty sure that Bush didn't quit drinking altogether. It would explain the falls and why he spent so much time in Crawford.

Just to clarify, the Bush twins were born when GWB was about 35 and Kennedy started dating Vicky when he was about 60 so, no, not about the same amount of time.

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

My guess for the reason for the special treatment of the funeral is security. The average veteran being buried in Arlington isn't going to attract 1/1000th the amount of onlookers that the Kennedy funeral did. Why drag out the media/onlooker circus?

I'm glad they got it done and over with, I'm no big fan of the Kennedy clan and didn't want the whole thing to drag on and on, all over tv for weeks. I NEVER like it when a famous person dies and the media just can't let it go, even if the person was someone I was a fan of.

Regardless of my feelings, may he rest in peace.

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I have no strong opinion either way on the three people you mentioned- better that they "turned their lives around", than not, I suppose.

Regarding some of the other posts...
Despite some of the causes he supported, I think many people have trouble lauding him because there didn't seem to be a suitable punishent for his actions in the Chappaquiddick incident. Debating the details of when/how she died or comparing him to other people doesn't change the fact that he made inexcusable decisions in that instance and then didn't have to face the consequences like the average person would/should(for whatever reason(s).

I also agree that many of his other personality traits (excessive drinking, womanizing, etc...) don't impress me much. Our behavior coupled with the choices we make tend to give a good picture of our personal character- his personal character was not impressive, in my opinion.

I feel that we are all responsible for our actions and should pay the consequences for the choices we make (regardless of wealth, social status, etc...), it's what having character and being an adult is all about.

This doesn't mean I wish him or his family ill or that he didn't support worthy causes but when I look at the man, as a whole, I just don't see a "great man."

Luckily my opinion doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things :-)

Well stated! I'm know I've done it too, but bringing up someone else's wrongdoing (e.g. Bush) when dealing with a completely different person (Kennedy) really doesn't make much sense. It doesn't give validity to the original person in question's errors. It doesn't make one person better than the other. It's almost akin to a "Nanny nanny boo boo!" finger-pointing comment.

My comments on the Kennedy's will remain with me (cuz they ain't purty!), but thank you for an additional very good point!

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Can't you do better than this??? You stated she wasn't alive more than 15 minutes but you question a trained diver and his court testimony?????? Yes, he did try to "save her" but the proper thing to do is call for help. He did have the wherewithall to call "his friends" but not authorities. Give me a break!

You SHOULD care if Kennedy drank every single day of his life. Geez.

The Kennedy family has had so much tragedy in their family. I wonder if they had made different choices would they have had so much tragedy. Kind of like the whole Karma thing....

Yes, sometimes you do reap what you sow--and the sins of the father are visited upon the children.

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"Never explain — your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway. —Elbert Hubbard"

He could have called for help after he walked back to where the party took place. The cell phone had not been invented yet.

I honestly do not think that a diver would be qualified to ascertain the time of Mary Jo's death nor how long she was in the car before she died.

I think that if the diver had witnessed the accidentm dove in the water and watched as she died, then he'd be credible.

You just want to believe the worst because he's a Kennedy.

50,000 paople paid their respects in person; even more lined up to witness the motorcade.

You SHOULD care if Bush drank every day of his life. Where's your proof about Kennedy?

I think it's appropriate that he be able to get on with his life, but not in the NFL.

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News is not real. It's gotten so strange. People get down on Fox News, but at least with Fox News, you know it's not true. Mike Birbiglia

Totally agree. That piece of trash should have been banned for life from football. This wasn't just his second chance -- he's had previous run-ins with the law.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Well since someone mentioned Micheal Vick and the mood I am in with my dear friend Flo my period, to me he is trash , I honestly feel because he is a professional football player and because he served 2 years, he does not deserve a second chance yes at life he does of course, but not to be reinstated into the national football league of America. As a huge animal activist with all his money, sadly he could have done so much for all the neglected and abused animals we have, but no he was greedy and needed more money. I personally would have first liked to have seen him be more involved in stopping all the dog fighting that goes on perhaps invest 6 months first before he Micheal Vick be given the chance to play the sport he loved. You see like I mentioned before once again I know that the late Ted Kennedy was no saint and was involved in alot of some bad doings and did make some serious bad choices. However yes he was given a second chance and I personally feel he proved he was a decent human and went on to serve our country well. What besides 2 years of Jail term has Micheal Vick done besides killing so many many innocent animals .

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in memory of my beloved beautiful brother Sonny who is now an angel in heaven

I'll ask one more time-where is your info that she was dead within 15 minutes? You posted that on the other thread and you still can't back it up. The court took the testimony of the diver but that's still not good enough for you yet you won't come up with anything to back what you say. Let's see some documentation.

Let's not forget the snorting of coke.....

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

15 minutes underwater is enough time to kill any of us (except when the diving reflex kicks in in very small children). If you'll reread what I wrote, I never said that she only lived for 15 minutes. I said that after 15 minutes, he would have known that she could not be saved. I do not know how long she lived; you do not know how long she lived; and the diver did not know how long she lived.
The diver did say there might have been an air pocket and that she might have had an air pocket. Might isn't anything more than a guess.

Whooo hooo!! Can I marry you? Hehe

My husband and I - who normally agree on so many things - cannot agree on this. I'm with you, truble. He had a LOT of chances, blew them all, then gets more. There just comes a time in EVERYONE'S life that ENOUGH is ENOUGH. After a while, "too bad, so sad" is the correct consequence.

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I could be wrong, but I believe Vick's brother (also football player) had several run-ins w/ the law during his lifetime days. They obviously don't respect the laws and rules.

At what point is enough? At what point do we as a society say enough is enough!? How many "one more chances" do we give? I really am "DOWN" on giving just one more second chance, or allowing habitual offenders more time to get their act together.

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"Never explain — your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway. —Elbert Hubbard"

"I said that after 15 minutes, he would have known that she could not be saved" is an inaccurate statement. YOU do not know if she was in an air pocket or not. You and I have no idea how long she was alive down there. But really that's beside the point because Kennedy should have called the authorities or his friends should have. So if you are in an accident and submerged you want someone to figure after 15 minutes you can't be saved so just don't get help? Just give up on you because in your mind 15 minutes is the limit to save someone?