Anti-abortion activist killed near school - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

I just read this. From what I read, the anti-abortionist was the target.

Thanks for posting, I hadn't heard this. Let's see if the "other side" condones this!!!

Why on Earth would you think anyone would condone this?

But then again, you about danced on Dr. Tiller's grave, so I guess I can understand how you would believe others might share your odd enjoyment of murder.

No, prochoice supporters do not condone it. I know it's hard for some antichoice folks to understand since they believe life begins at conception and ends at birth.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

First things first: based on that article, it appears that while the man was targeted, there is no indication (as of now) that he was targeted because of his abortion stance.

The shooter, shot and killed at least one other person and appears that he was going to kill another.

This may or may not have anything to do w/ abortion.

Second thing: What in the world was the protestor protesting outside a high school!? What purpose did that ever serve?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

As antichoice supporters do not condone killing abortion providers either!

Do we really need to re-visit the Tillar thread? YOU were practically dancing on the man's grave. Regardless of what you say, your actions (in this case posts) clearly said that Dr. Tillar deserved to die.

It's hypocritical to say "I don't condone it, but I sure am glad he's dead..."
I get the distinct impression that some antichoice supporters feel that the ends justified the means!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Well Marilynk I've unfortunately visited many gravesites in my life but I have never danced on one.

My beliefs are whether your for or againist the issue you should not have to die for your belief in your cause either way its a sad case once again. Peace. Catherine

could someone PLEASE explain why the gentleman was protesting abortion outside of a high school????

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Maybe none of us know. I suppose if they let Planned Parenthood in to give any info out (which I don't know if they do or not) you could want a pro life presence known. I have no idea what his methods were, etc.. or his reasons. I think teens are a likely age group to seek abortions though.

I suspect this was the reason too. That, and teens would be particularly vulnerable to scare tactics.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I remember you were practically giddy when Dr. Tiller was killed.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I'm not sure of that, but, I could guess he was trying to make the HS kids SEE what abortion looks like?? I heard on the news he had a very graphic sign of a fetus, and the shooter shot him because of that.

KTS, you really should think of what you post before you post it. It just does not sound good to post "Let's see if the "other side" condones this!!!" Do you see how ridiculous that is?? Why would ANYONE condone the killing of an innocent person?? While I don't agree with the grapic signs being displayed ANYWHERE, no one should be killed because of it.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Because KTH would, did, and does if it suites her beliefs. Sick, sick, sick.

There is no justification for Mr. Pouillon's murder just as there was no justification for Dr. Tiller's harassment and ultimate murder, or for the many other murdered and injured doctors and healthcare workers.

Murder is murder and both were unfortunate outcomes of the violence and inappropriate behaviors the lunies have brought to the discussion. Sadly, this murder probably won't get the publicity Dr. Tiller's murder did. Mostly because I don't recall vigiles outside Mr. Pouillon's home praying he would die. I don't recall entire organizations whose sole purpose was to harass Mr. Pouillon and anyone associated with him. I don't recall websites listing Mr. Pouillon's address, whereabouts at any given time. I don't recall Mr. Pouillon's place of work being bombed or that an attempt was already made on Mr. Pouillon's life by an organized group of nutjobs.

I doubt the message boards will be filled with posters rejoicing in Mr. Pouillon's death. And, I doubt we'll be seeing this sort of behavior in the wake of Mr. Pouillon's murder

Does her shirt say "God hates fags.com"? WTH?? Can't these people see the hypocricy of that??? Calling people foul names does not seem to be a very Christian thing to do, IMO. This kind of crap just makes me dislike organized religion all the more. Seems more of an excuse for people to justify hating and judging people. Pathetic.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Allinaugust you could be correct about the message on her shirt. I believe that is what is written is correct and how sad .There she stands protesting her beliefs for another issue which is okay because life is all about choices , but then to go and wear a tee-shirt with those words talk about being a hypocrite. I would have felt better if the word was gay but fags or faggots is nasty and down right mean... No peace for that women at all... Catherine

Decided and changed my mind God does not hate Gays, he loves us all one and all. There I feel better. Now I can say Peace. Catherine

Isn't that women in the picture one of those idiots from that so-called 'church' that protests soldiers' funerals, etc.? Looks like something they'd do.

That certainly doesn't represent the majority of people who are anti-abortion. Of course, the ones who look like crazies get the attention.

Those people are disgusting. Preaching hate never changes anyones mind.

Too hypocritical!! "Why would ANYONE condone the killing of an innocent person" you ask? Well prolifers consider a fetus in the woman an innocent human being and many, many people condone that. So there's your answer! I could say the same about the death penalty. Some people are for it and some people are against it. Granted it might not be an "innocent" person being killed but it's killing someone, nonetheless.

Are you saying that I am hypocritical?

Please tell me where I said I condone the killing of anyone/anything. I am PRO-Choice. A woman should choose this for herself. I would hope that she would choose life, but, it's not my say. I don't think that you can see the difference and I'm just not up to trying to beat a dead horse today.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'ts hypocritical for a pro-choice person to act like they don't condone killing when in essence they do. I don't want to beat a dead horse either but if a person believes a fetus is a human being, which most people actually do when presented with scientific evidence, ie it won't grow into a dog, etc..., then IMHO people do condone killing. An abortion extinguishes a human fetus, a beating human heartbeat. If being in favor of that is not condoning killing then I don't know what is. Don't bother coming back with all the rah rah about it not being viable, etc... it's still the killing of a human fetus for whatever reasons. Killing is killing. If you don't believe killing a fetus isn't killing a person then you are putting a value on what type of person/life it is. The slippery slope.......

Actually, Marilyn, I guess I'm hypocritical, too, since -- while I didn't "condone" the killing of Tiller, I can't deny that I am very glad that he is no longer able to perform late-term abortions

In my heart, I believe that Tiller's death was the loss of one life but the saving of many more lives: those of untold pre-born babies.

Kind of like you did w/ Dr. Tiller? You were overjoyed about his death--overjoyed!

I deal all day, every day with OBJECTIVE MEDICAL FINDINGS. A fetus before the second trimester cannot survive on it's own. When a fetus can survive on it's own then it should be considered a "person". Now, most women who desire children bond w/ the fetus long before the second trimester. But some women do not.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Kathy, do you enjoy the option of choosing your hair style for yourself?? If so, then you are pro-choice (in that area, for argument's sake). Does that then mean that you condone someone shaving their hair off? someone growing it super long?? A man growing it super long?? Let's take a different example. Do you think a person should be able to choose for themselves wether or not to pierce their ears?? I'm sure you do. Well, do you condone people getting those big ear plug things?? Probably not. So, just because you believe that a person should choose for themselves (wether or not to pierce) that does NOT mean you condone all the types of piercings.

Just because someone wants to preserve their rights, and have the right to choose, does not mean they would/will choose to end a pregnancy (murder in your eyes). It's not an easy thing to grasp, I understand that, but, once, just once, can you take off the blinders and try to see outside of your little box?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

So your best argument is to equate the choice of abortion with someones hairstyle. That's really, really reaching. A person can do whatever they want with their body as long as it does not cause another person suffering. Killing your unborn child, and it is a child whether it's yet viable or not, is the ultimate in hurting someone else. You can paint your body purple, shave your head, cut a hole in your arm, I could care less. The point is that that doesn't hurt someone else.
My blinders are off. I understand the concept of choice. I was pro choice for many years. It's too bad you don't understand the concept that a fetus is a human being and no one has the right to chose to kill it. It's either killing a human being or it's not. There's really no black and white.

So what Marilyn? So what if a fetus cannot survive on it's own? We've been over this many times. People like Christopher Reeve could not either. He was still a human being with his own dna, etc... and so is that little "unviable" fetus. When I was growing up the odds of a premie living were pretty dire but now they can save babies at 26 weeks gestation. How does that fit into a viability theory? I guess with your theory those premies really aren't people because they were born before they should have been viable. Premies can't survive on their own. Heck an infant can't survive on it's own either. I think that viability issue has a lot of holes in it. Bonding doesn't equate with whether or not the fetus is a human either.
Please quote where I was "overjoyed" with his death.

Acutally, klling an abortion provider does not give that provider a change to repent from his sins before he meets his Maker and that is not a good thing at all..

*snort* we can't quote where you were overjoyed---because you deleted the whole damned thread! Of course, allegedly, you maintained a copy of it since you think I threatened you. For the love of God, woman--you are what gives anti-choice/anti-abortion people a bad name. You're a zealot.

FYI--26 months is well past the 2nd trimester.

It's really simple: Do you think a person should have the right to seek medical treatment? Do you think people should be able to choose what kind of medical treatment they receive? Should a person with cancer be able to choose whether they undergo chemo/radiation or not?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Duh, I know where 26 months is in the cycle of pregnancy. Your whole debate is on viability and it wasn't that long ago that 26 months was not viable.
I'm telling your mom-you SWORE on here!!
Of course I believe in everything you asked. BUT I don't believe in killing unborn fetuses, no matter what their "age" is. At 8 weeks or at 26 weeks in utero (sp) or at birth the child has the same dna, etc... How dare anyone decide at what point they "deserve" to live. Which is exactly what a woman and her doctor decide.
Marilynk-so are 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, not for the life of the mother, not ok since the fetus is viable, in your own words?

Do you? 2.8 years wasn't viable that long ago?

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

All of this aside, can you please show me where I , or any other pro-choice person, stated that they condone killing someone.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Doctors and patients decide, routinely, whether life is worth living. If you take away the right to choose--be it pregnancy, or chemo/radiation, or insulin, or whatever--then you are most assuredly going down a slippery slope.

You are focusing on a small portion of a much larger picture.

I will not continue arguing with you. You see in black and white---no shades of gray. There is no arguing with you. You have no respect for anyone elses position or opinion. If it doesn't jive with you or your opinion--you assume that the other person is dead wrong. And no, I'm not talking about just abortion. You are close-minded, narrow-focused and frankly frightening. Good nite and God Bless you.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

You continue to amaze me! At least I'm not on here calling people names-"close-minded, narrow-focused and frankly frightening". I guess when you are backed into a corner on a subject you hit back with the name calling.
I'm not focusing on a "small portion" of a much larger picture. The abortion industry, and it is an industry, is HUGE not to mention the millions of lives lost. That is not a small portion. What are the stats for high school graduation now-one "dead" classmate for every 3 living I think.
Yep I see absolutely black and white with the abortion issue. It's a no brainer for me. You are either a human fetus or not.
As I said before you can't compare abortion to someone choosing not to undergo chemo or take insulin. That's comparing apples to oranges. One is an individual decision about their life. That's not the case with abortion. There are TWO lives in the picture.
I see you never answered the 26 week gestation viability question. It's because you can't. Hence the name calling!

You don't have to "state it" on here. For us prolifers if you are prochoice then you condone the killing of human fetuses, which to prolifers are real, human beings.

Here Marilynk:
From miscarraige.about.com
"Strictly speaking, most doctors define the age of viability as being about 24 weeks of gestation. In many hospitals, 24 weeks is the cutoff point for when doctors will use intensive medical intervention to attempt to save the life of a baby born prematurely. A baby born at 24 weeks would generally require a lot of intervention, potentially including mechanical ventilation and other invasive treatments followed by a lengthy stay in a neonatal intensive care unit (NICU).

In the hands of experienced specialists, though, babies born slightly earlier may have a chance at survival. Babies born at 23 weeks may survive with these specialists in a state-of-the-art NICU, but the odds of survival are much lower. The earliest baby to have ever survived premature birth was born at 21 weeks and 6 days, and this was reported in the news as having been a "miracle."

Odds of survival increase as the pregnancy progresses, and even an extra week in the womb can make a difference. In general, premature babies born closer to 37 weeks will be much better off than those born before 28 weeks. "

So using your "viability" reasoning when do you feel abortion should be limited?
And also, if you lose a baby at 26 weeks gestation did you lose a baby? Tissue?
Using that rule is anything that is lost before the age of viability-say 23 weeks-just tissue? Would you tell a woman who is crying with a 20 week miscarriage that she lost "tissue" or would you console her on her lost child? And if it's a lost child how can you rationalize legal abortion at that stage? I sincerely hope you answer this question as I would like to understand your logic.

That is not name calling. Those are adjectives, they describe.

Abortion has to come up to be rehashed frequently on here, doesn't it? Y'all could save a lot of typing and just copy/paste the threads that didn't get deleted since basically it's all the same old, same old.

dl

I was thinking the SAME thing. Don't suspect KTS will understand that, tho. Afterall, she thinks that 26 months is in the gestational time frame for a baby.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Duh, we were talking about viability of a fetus not the length of pregnancy. What a silly thing for you to say.
I love it that no one that is prochoice will tackle my viability issue.

[quote=deddlastt;3306013]That is not name calling. Those are adjectives, they describe.

Abortion has to come up to be rehashed frequently on here, doesn't it? Y'all could save a lot of typing and just copy/paste the threads that didn't get deleted since basically it's all the same old, same old.

dl[/QUOTE

Adjective, smadjective-it's still someone trying to insult someone else. She could not defend her position and answer my questions so she resorted to saying she was done and then spewing "adjectives" to get the last word. Guess that doesn't represent "her side" very well!

Almost 90% of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Why is the discussion about 1.1% of abortions. The majority of which are due to fetal demise or congenital abnormalities incompatible with life outside the womb.

To reframe the issue - The risk of health related injuries related to abortion is a fraction of the risk related to completing a pregnancy and childbirth. Add to that the economical disadvantages placed upon women who are not emotionally and/or financially equiped to raise a child. While I would fight tooth and nail to keep a pregnancy going, and while I would risk my life to have a child, and while I would take on the burdens of having a child with a handicap, I would never force another woman to do that. Particularly in a society that berates and belittles woman who do choose to carry a pregnancy through and then require financial and emotional help to raise their child.

Work to change the law. Provide resources to assist woman. But, Taliban style terrorism used against people exercising their legal rights is nothing but terrorism. Be it carrying around graphic signs, "praying" outside health care clinics that provide abortion services, or hounding and harassing woman seeking abortions and their healh care providers in every conceivable way.

There are many reasons why abortion is and always will be a legal right in the United States. Even the lunies know this, which is why they have resorted to terrorism.

[quote=kathytheshopper;3306113]I hear your feet stomping. You win, you are right, you are always right no matter what the subject matter is,yes, no, pro, con, noun, adjective. You don't represent "your" side very well, however......you can and should have the last word, as usual.

Poor little dust bunnies, beware........

dl

The issue isn't about who "deserves to live." It isn't about calling something tissue, a fetus, or a baby. The issue is about a woman deciding what goes on inside her body, and at what point are her rights superceded.

And, KTH -- why do you turn these sorts of threads into fights? I can imagine every person on this board would have offered their condolences to the murder victim. Or, perhaps discussed the violence surrounding this issue. Why do you see the need to polarlize and ruin things so often? I know you are one of the lunies but seriously, are you really that stupid that you don't even see those who agree with you on some level aren't supporting your nutty rants?

The answer is simple. She enjoys the attention. Some people like that are called trolls. I am not saying that she is a troll but I am saying that KTS likes the attention the same way trolls do. Whether it is for her stance on the crime/race stats in her city or her Catholic beliefs or abortion or gay people, she stirs the pot until it can't be stirred any more and then calls her posts a MyCoupons test or claims she is a victim. If there isn't a kerfluffle that causes normal posters to say she is being racist, homophobic, narrow minded etc....she can't claim to be a victim. JMO.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

You know what.... I actually typed about 6 paragraphs in response to this and erased them. I just reminded myself that I need to follow my own advice and not get sucked in to this nonsense with you. Hopefully the rest around here will follow suit and stop beating this dead horse.

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

I'm with you. I chose not to argue because arguing with KTS is like arguing with the dining room table.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Oh, I can defend my position. I choose not to. Anything I say you will have a retort for, or you will twist around or want "further" explanation.

It's not so much that I don't like a good argument---I just have learned in the last year what arguments are lost causes. I refuse to beat my head against the proverbial wall over this subject, with someone who can't or won't approach it w/ an open mind.
So, carry on. Argue w/ yourself, Argue w/ the wall---but you won't be arguing with me.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I sincerely wanted you to answer my questions. It would give me insight into how people rationalize abortion and/or what months it's ok and what months gestation it's not ok. I'm not on here calling you names or anything. I am just confused that if viability is an issue for you are you (or any prochoicer can answer this) against abortions where you consider a fetus viable? If you aren't against abortions at that point, then why not? It's a legitimate question and so far you have refused to answer it. If you think I'm going to "twist" what you say but you are firm in your beliefs I don't know why that is an issue. I'm really interested in the viability thought process.

post limit reached....closed thread

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