I realize the health care bill as we knew it was likely dead, but I'm curious as to what people think...

I read somewhere online that the Amish and several other groups were going to be exempt from having to purchase a health care policy or face a fine if they did not.

Is that fair?

NO it's not fair. One thing that bugs me about "fringe" groups (by this I just mean people that live outside the norms of modern society) is that they benefit from things like modern technology and they don't contribute to it nor do they acknowledge it.

Thank God the health bill is dead. Nothing is "free" it's just a matter of who pays for it and who collects the benefits.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Interesting, Anna.

I was actually cheering that they were not going to have to contribute to it. For religious reasons, they treat medical care in a way that is atypical...but admirable. As it is, they do not participate in any insurance groups at all. If they need medical treatment, they pay for it in CASH.

The freedom of religion is so fundamental for us as Americans, and I appreciated that they were going to be able to opt out, much like ministers can opt out of paying social security taxes (and forfeit the right to collect social security). I just found it disturbing that the rest of us wouldn't have that option on the basis of religion.

I guess I don't really consider the Amish a "fringe" group. They are pretty consistent in their beliefs and I don't think they are using their beliefs to get out of things. Their beliefs are sincerely held.

I have no problem with them being exempt. Do they take advantage of other government funded perks like WIC and medicaid? Somehow I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. I suppose if they did I would feel differently.

__________________
Melissa

Same here, Melissa - I don't consider them to be fringe. They are not modern, but they are nothing if not religiously convicted.

This information is interesting:

Amish Life FAQ's

I was talking more about the roads, which they use, electronics, which they don't use but benefit from in the general sense of society and stuff like that.
I think it doesn't matter if they pay cash for their medical treatments they benefit from medical technology and research they benefit from the doctors and hospitals and all that comes from health care costs so if everyone else is required to contribute they should be too.

And by "fringe" groups I just mean people who don't live like most people in society. I just couldn't and still can't think of a better word. lol I'm sure you guys know what I mean and probably have the right word for it.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I understand what you are saying, Anna, but they actually are contributing in the same way we are. They just do it directly, rather than having an insurance company be the middle man. In fact, they are probably contributing more, financially, than the rest of us because they don't have an insurance company negotiating the costs of services and drugs down for them and likely pay the rack rate.

The way the rest of us contribute to the research, etc., expenditures is through purchasing the end products / services. When I buy an asthma med for my son, I am not just paying for that medicine. I am paying for all the failed attempts at meds that went before it, and I am sure Pfizer is also building in profit from the med I buy to pay their current researchers.

Blue Cross has negotiated the rate they will pay the pharmacy for our albuterol way, way down. An Amish person, without that middleman, pays the asking price.

So in reality... they are probably subsidizing 'the system' more per treatment episode than the rest of us.

ETA: Another thing that occurred to me is that it's likely that by and large the Amish cost us much less as a nation than the rest of the population. They pay their taxes like the rest of us, but it is my understanding that they do not utilize government-funded schools, WIC, etc., and they do not end up populating our prisons.

I see your point however if every other citizen of America does not have the choice to say "I will pay for my own medical care" and avoid being penalized for not having insurance why should one group be treated differently. It's like saying everyone that drives must carry auto insurance except for a certain group of people. This is America and no group should be held above the law that everyone else has to follow.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

What about poor people,and homeless people?Will they automatically be thrown in jail because they don't have money for health insurance?Or are you only penalyzed if you walk into a medical facility without insurance?How will the government know if you've bought health insurance or not?

__________________

But what about their freedom of religion?

If one doesn't have insurance, they are assessed a fine. We do not have a "debtors prison" in this country; never have.

Homeless people and the poor are covered by Medicaid. They have coverage.

When I was in nursing school (a looonng time ago) we learned about a religious group (Jehova's Witness maybe?) that refused blood and/or blood products as part of treatment. We were tught that they were protected by the law because it was against their religion. So, if their child is dying and requires a transfusion to live they certainly have the right to refuse it with no repurcussions. I'm thinking the Amish are protected by a similar law. I don't really know though, just throwing an idea out there......

Selena

__________________
God is not Santa Claus

Not all poor people can get medicaid.Some people fall right at the border and can't get medicaid.They have house payments,gas bills,electric bills that have had the rates tripled,water bill rates that have risen,car insurance that has gone up by 30% for simply moving a few streets over along with all the other bills.And so now, we have to take what little money we have left over to eat on to buy health insurance that we would normally never use but now will have to due to all the health problems that will arise from not eating. That is just so dumb.
I'd still like to know how they will know if you don't have health insurance.Will proof be required when getting your drivers license or what?

__________________

I stand by my belief that nobody should be above the law. My religious beliefs are that gay people should be allowed to be married as I know that they are just like everyone else but that doesn't give me the right to legally marry a woman in states where it's illegal.
That's just one example. It's not right that some people can circumvent the law. We just passed a hands free cell phone ban in OR. If there is a religious group somewhere that disagrees with that does that give them the right to use their phones?

What about the groups that don't believe in medical care we just now have a case

Faith healing trial: Jeff and Marci Beagley found guilty

The Beagleys don't believe in doctors that doesn't allow them to let their child die. It's against the law to not seek medical care for your child no matter your religion.

It's my belief that nobody should be held above the law.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

The government is aware of these facts. That's why they're offering subsidies. It will be affordable.

Well, actually, I don't think it will *be* anything. I think it's all dead in the water.

Personally, just as ministers can opt out of social security but have to sign a waiver saying they understand that the benefits - including disability should they become incapacitated - will not be made available to them - I think that had the health care bill require proof of a plan or else one would be fined, people whose religious convictions are that it is the responsibility of one's religious community to take care of their medical needs could do likewise.

I worked in a position that might have been considered ministerial by the government many years ago. I wanted to opt out of paying social security, and had to write a letter explaining my religious objection. Mind you, I was 20 years old, making beans and to me it simply looked like a 28% tax bill that I absolutely couldn't afford to pay. Because of the way the place I worked had incorporated itself, I was actually considered self-employed, which put me on the hook for the entire portion of my social security taxes, which came to about 28%. Because philosophically, based on my religious perspective regarding my responsibility to work or not eat, etc., I wish the whole New Deal / social security programs had never become part of our economic system, I wrote a letter requesting that I be allowed to opt out of social security entirely. My letter did a poor job explaining my position, and I received a response saying I was denied exemption on the basis that my request did not seem to truly be rooted in my religious convictions.

Had I been granted that exemption, it would only have applied to income I earned in my ministerish capacity. Had I worked at McDonalds on the night shift back then, my McD's income wouldn't have been eligible to request an exemption.

I think that's all hokey. If an individual has a religious conviction about the rightness / wrongness of a government program in which they are being coerced into financial participation, as INDIVIDUALS they can have that belief separate and apart from the source of their paychecks. I always thought it should apply to someone with a conviction regardless of the source of their income.

I've been self employed before and the social security deduction does take a bite. I don't know that it would be wise to let people's religious beliefs dictate whether or not insurance coverage is carried. There are a lot of religious beliefs that the state does not accomodate. To name a few, polygamy, not getting your child medical treatment and snake handling.

HCR is not dead.

Except that those issues (polygamy, snake handling, etc.) don't create a direct and identifiable financial encumbrance on a citizen. They prohibit / exclude a legal benefit/recognition, but don't interfere with the free practice of religion. For instance, I would assume that a man could take several wives religiously, but that the law would not recognize more than one of them.

Are Amish people considered to be Americans though?

Yes, they are. But if the Amish do not wish to benefit from govt. healthcare, why should they be forced to carry insurance for it?

__________________
Melissa

Of course they are. Why would you question ther citizenry?

If you truly believe this to be fact then you are woefully misinformed, or incredibly naive.

Subsidies aside, the working poor will continue to be the working poor and not able to afford healthcare/insurance.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The HRC bill doesn't offer us government healthcare. In

Isurance will remain private unless the individual is covered by VA, Tricare, Medicaid or Medicare. They'll be offered different plans from which they choose.

The Amish are usually exempt for government regulations.

The Amish do use some extremely modern medicine.

And I think that had the government plan been enacted, there would be more people falling into that pool, and our expenditures for that pool of people would rise.

Totally making up a figure here, but if, say, a $20K income qualified you for Medicaid, and a $20,001 income required you to buy insurance, people would be hesitant to cross that threshold. Even if it was an employer-subsidized plan that required the employee to pay a portion, that person would still be better off in the short term to not try to advance.

In other words, in some people, it creates a cycle of government dependency and keeps them from thinking it is to their benefit to progress. That already happens to a degree now. I have a friend who needed a little bit more money each month, but wouldn't go out and get a part time job because they'd have made too much money to keep benefits like free lunches, WIC, etc. She didn't even want to take that first step to financial independence.

I agree totally and what people fail to realize is NOTHING is free. Someone somewhere has to pay for it.
A better idea (than having "free" healthcare or forcing people to buy insurance) would be to figure how to decrease the cost of healthcare so that people could afford to pay for it ourselves. I'm not talking about long term treatments for chronic conditions but the everyday things like Pap smears, mammograms, appendix removals, things that a person who is in reasonably good health would need to take care of. Right now it's beyond the reach of all but the rich or well off.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Then why won't they show us their birth certificates?

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Is that someplace you really want to go?

Right now, insurance, all types, is regulated by the states which is why I found it odd that McCain's only move towards health care reform was to make insurance companies sell across state lines and to require them to cover pre existing conditions (at whatever price the market would bear).

Health care costs have exploded. As individuals, we have no way to control these costs. Insurance largely dictates which procedures are covered, which drugs are covered and, worst of all, which patients are covered. I suppose that eventually the price of health insurance would eventually become unaffordable for most of our citizens; the insurance companies would all fold and the hospitals would start to compete with each other.

I would imagine that an awful lot of good people would die under the free market solution. I am not willing to watch people die or become disabled due to lack of health care. Health care is a right. Health insurance stifles industry.

I've known people who could and would start businesses if they didn't have a family member with a pre existing condition. Others have been fired from jobs because they developed an illness. (Illegal, I know, but you can always find a reason to fire someone) It's also hard for the American worker to compete with those in other countries. The cost of insuring an American worker hurts the bottom line.

Within the next 10 years the baby boomers will start retiring. We need to prepare for this fact now. We could do away with the Medicare system entirely and leave our elderly to the open market. It would certanly save the taxpayers a lot of money. It would also reduce our Social Security liability.

Right now, there is no one who can negotiate drug prices, no unbiased party to look at what procedures work, and no way to negotiate rates for procedures.

Pretty funny.

I think the punchline is that they are waiting for Obama to go first.

There are "benefits" I don't get from the government and yet I am forced pay for them

Here's a novel idea: let's make people pay for their funerals now because it is a fact they will die. It is not a fact they will need healthcare (generally speaking).

I do not see how people can be forced to carry health insurance and with that said, I am not interested in seeing any exclusions at all.

dl

Perhaps we know the same "friend". I've seen that too: don't work, cry woe is me, and lap up all you can and lap up even more of what people will do to "help"

dl

You have to be kidding.

People will die without health care. I am not in favor of denying people health care.

We do a better job of making things as fair as they can be in this country. If you, and others, spend your life resenting the fact that someone else gets something that you don't, all I can do is feel sorry for you.

Agreed! If a few people game the system and get something for nothing, big deal. Better that than let truly needy people suffer and die. What I really don't get are all the folks who raise a stink with respect to aborting an embryo, but once a child is born, turn a blind eye. They'd rather throw that kid to the sharks than provide it with health care.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I didn't say we should deny health care. Don't feel sorry for me, I don't need that sentiment.

dl

see, though, it's a vicious cycle: the more people you have taking advantage of the system, the more the system will break. The more the system is broken, the more people will take advantage of the system----wash, rinse and repeat.

However, I do agree with you on the other issue. Abortion is a sin, but it's ok for a child to be born into abject poverty and die a slow death because they don't receive basic medical care!

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I really hate that argument. It is not ok for children to suffer. It is not ok that they go without health care. Or are born into poverty. It is still not ok to murder a child that has been conceived. It's like the health care debate. What the Dems want to do, I don't believe is the answer. Do I have a better idea? Not really. But it doesn't make their "answer" right. Just because children suffer........doesn't make it ok to murder other children.

__________________
Melissa

I really do not understand how children do not receive medical care. There is always the health dept for "basic" preventive medical care. Immunization shots.
yearly physicals, low cost birth control, etc.
In the small (very small) community we have a Free Clinic. We always make a monatary donation to every year. Anyone regardless of income can go there.

There are ways to reform the health care insurance problems. But, I think it is wrong to force anyone to buy something they do not want or can not afford.

Just because on paper someone can afford something is not always true. People making the same income can not always afford the same things. Some because of choices others because of things beyond their control.
One person making 30,000 might not be able to afford the insurance as another person making the same income of 30,000.

How many people can afford an extra $100 (probably a lot more than that amount)off their income each month to afford insurance?

Yes, to me medical insurance is important for my family to have. But not everyone feels that way.

I do think more regulation needs to be in place to protect the consumer when shopping for medical insurance.

I agree, Melissa.

I am always appalled when the same people who are rabid about the notion that if you choose to take an animal into your home that it is your responsibility to mortgage that home if it is necessary to afford the extreme care necessary when that animal becomes sick rant and rave about anyone thinking that they have any responsibility to the developing baby they willingly created.

It boggles the mind.

I'm not arguing (right now) about whether or not abortion is murder. I'm asking how the same people who fight tooth and nail for every conception to be carried to term don't have a problem with denying the mother-to-be prenatal health care, and once a child is born, health care for the child (and it's caretakers).

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I really do not understand your comment.
Prenatal health care can be obtained from your local state health dept. across the country.

Women in every state can get help to pay for medical care during their pregnancies.

And after the kid is born? Then what?

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

My state requires health insurance. You have to submit proof of insurance for yourself and your dependents with your state income tax return; if you don't, you are fined. Not sure how those who do not file are handled.

As for the topic, I think it's a slippery slope to have exlusions from any policy or law based on religious belief.

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

While I agree with you, I think that the Amish are exempt from taxes and the draft. Public education doesn't continue past the 6th grade. Then again, I don't know that they take any government services. I said earlier that they use some very modern medicine. The research is probably paid for with tax dollars along with the equipment.

I think that they have the only community that has had their DNA totally mapped.

We already have such policies. Quakers and others can apply for exclusion from military conscription on the basis of conscientious objection.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Amish people pay sales tax same as everybody else, so even if they aren't required to pay any other types of taxes, which I think they are, they are probably covering their use of the roads and whatnot with sales tax money.

They also collect sales tax on things they sell in their businesses, and I know that for a fact because I've paid sales tax on things purchased from Amish owned stores.

__________________
Jesus SAVES by shopping smartly and using double coupons!

It makes sense that they would pay sales tax, but income tax and property tax? Do they pay that?

I know alot of Amish, they live all around me.
Yes they pay taxes just like us. They pay sales tax, federal, state and local taxes and property taxes. The only tax they do not pay is social security/medicare tax and they do not collect social security or get medicare either. They are taken care of by their family when they are too old to work any longer.

It isn't just SS/Medicare insurance. They cannot purchase ANY type of insurance if they wish to be excluded from SS/Medicare. I'm fine with it. Their community has a long, established track record of caring for each other. Until that stops and they are not self sustaining, it's fine with me.