>>>What you say is true... and yet somehow, until it was a group of Christian missionaries who were accused, the media never really bothered to investigate. That's the part that makes me roll my eyes.<<<

Okay, I get that. We live in a western hemisphere country where Christianity is a very recognizable religion, even folks who aren't Christian have a basic understanding of what it stands for, so stories like this will naturally have those who oppose or despise that religion saying *see, not so altruistic after all, all PR, no truth to their beliefs*. I get that too.

And because so many atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of Christian beliefs by folks who weren't truly Christians (according to what the Bible states the attributes of a follower of Christ are, "you will know them by their fruits" and all that jazz), I think it's understandable that opponents are cynical.

If there were another religion in our part of the world with the numbers of those who profess to believe in Christianity I think you'd see the same thing happening with another religious group. There are opportunists in every group of people.

As well, the media hasn't investigated/publicized much at all (at least in my lifetime) concerning Haiti (and the DR) in general. Or at least we, the general public, don't see/hear it until some hideous thing occurs over there. It just is too far removed from our way of life to garner much attention for most folks I've known, doesn't have much to do with our day to day lives, does it? Same can be said of many, many other countries and the human rights abuses perpetrated far away from the U.S.

Though it seems we are the nation others run to when financial and disaster help is needed I find that most of us are extremely ignorant about countries outside our own that we don't use as vacation spots or adoption resources or use for medical services or are involved with because of some kind of conflict.

If the opponents of Christianity and the news media want to give this story an anti-Christian slant doesn't it then fall upon real Christians to deflect that kinda thing by living lives more in lines with Biblical tenets so people will be better able to discern who is and isn't a Christian, who is just using using the label of Christian as a means to manipulate and scam and get away with crap?

If this story has become a focal point for opponents of Christianity to make their point that Christians are all full of sh*t, why not steer the conversations around to what (IMNSHO) the real story is: child trafficking. How bout those who are offended by what they perceive to be an anti-Christian slant to this news story looking into the subject in more depth so they can give reasonable debate?

I am not *picking on* Christians, you can insert the name of any religion or group of people (ie: Muslims, IRA, vegetarians, etc.) where I have used Christian, it's still the same, isn't it? Opponents of any groups will always find examples of *bad guys* to point to and make their points, won't they? If you believe in something strongly enough to be offended by criticism then I think you (I, we) need to be able to *reasonably* defend your beliefs. Reasonably means with factual info and leave the emotional aspects (name calling, finger wagging, etc) out of it. A lot more productive work could be accomplished that benefits more people if there were better spokespeople for the causes/groups. Again, IMNSHO, it falls upon anyone who professes any kind of strong belief to know how to defend that belief and how to bring discussions/arguments around to whatever the real crux of the matter is.

Kids from all over the world are stolen, bought, & sold. Parents all over the world in desperate situations are being conned into giving up their kids for what they think is a chance at a better life. Kids who never wanted to leave their families and countries are being sent to live in the most alien situations they could have imagined. Kids who are overwhelmed with the despair of that crap commit suicide. Kids are sold into slavery for sex and labor because it is just not a topic most folks who aren't touched by that reality want to spend much time thinking about. That's the news story folks, please don't get distracted by any kinda spin, learn more about the subject. And yes, it goes on in your own backyards right here in the U.S. because situations like the story in Haiti are usually ignored by our citizens when the media reports that news, because if we don't see faces or can relate to a group of people involved (victims and perps) we miss the point and it soon passes out of our interest.

>>>Why does it have to be "in the name of" anything? Why can't people do charitable acts just because they care about the suffering of others?<<<

Oy ve! That's a subject of a whole new post. isn't it? ;-)

When someone does something altruistic isn't it in the name of good, or a better phrase might be "for the sake of good"? People don't do altruistic things for money or fame the do it because it's the "right" thing to do and also because it makes the doer feel good.

If one cares about the suffering is that not a "good" reason to do something?

I certainly wasn't implying that only Christians or God loving people do good things I even stated that many atheists do good.
There were a few years of my life when I felt I was an atheist. Because of that my son has doubts about God. But we each have to find our spirituality, even those who don't believe in Christ or God can have some sort of spirituality.
My belief comes not from what I was taught as a child exclusively it comes from my own experience and even many scientists say they believe in God simply because everything turned out just so. If the Earth would have been a few inches off or the temp would've been a few degrees off there would be no animals or humans. Certainly that is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists but it does imply that some force caused these things to happen.
And as far as God goes, I'm not saying He is an old man with white hair sitting on a throne judging and smiting and giving favors. I don't know if God is a being, a force like the wind or an emotion like love. I just know from being filled with the Holy Spirit and from other experiences I have had that there is some entity or force that loves me no matter what and has my best interests at heart whether I know what my best interests are or not.
I know I've been blessed in my life and I know this entity, God, watches out for me and if something bad happens to me I am sure it is to prevent something even worse from happening.

That being said there is also free will of humans. God doesn't control us or there'd be no lying, cheating, stealing, child molesting, child trafficking, rapes, etc.
We as humans have the choice to be "good" or "evil".

These people in Haiti that we speak of had good intentions for the most part I believe but were led by a wacko. They chose to follow someone without checking into her background. They broke the law.
It happens all the time like the hikers, one of whom is from my area. The chose to go hiking in an area that is enemies with our country. The crossed the border, whether purposely or not and although I'm not saying they deserve what they have coming to them I do say "if you play with fire, you could get burned".

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Just saw on evening news (NBC, I think) a reporter in Haiti who'd been allowed to visit the 10 in jail (he had to stay on the the other side of the bars).
He showed little scraps of paper from a note one of the 10 slipped him. Don't know who wrote the note and can't remember what it said verbatim but the gist was they are afraid for their lives due to the corruption where they are, they didn't know what Silsby knew, Silsby wants to be in charge, she won't let them talk only she is allowed to speak to reporters and such, and the note had the names of the 8 folks there, leaving off Silsby's & Coulter's names.
Did anyone else see that news story and video? Went online to watch it again to make sure I had correct info but can't find it anywhere.

Just found the news clip:

Nightly News-Americans in Haiti jail: ‘We fear for our lives’ - AOL Video

>>>What you say is true... and yet somehow, until it was a group of Christian missionaries who were accused, the media never really bothered to investigate. That's the part that makes me roll my eyes.<<<

Do you just make this crap up? You must.

Reports on fears of child trafficking in Haiti preceded the date the Christian missionaries attempted to cross the border. Here's just one report from before their arrest:
Traffickers targeting Haiti's children, human organs, PM says - CNN.com

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I think these people got dragged into something and had no idea that all the bases weren't covered. They probably made decisions based on their emotions, their desire to "do" something. I feel bad for them. I really feel like they just acted out of ignorance and had no ill intentions. Silsby on the other hand, while I don't think she was necessarily ill intentioned towards the children, per se...I just think that maybe her desire to do something big and ...I don't know how to explain what I'm thinking. I just know people like her, what she was doing, while her intentions may have been on the surface good, she was doing it for the wrong reasons. That, I think, makes for bad decisions all around.

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Melissa

I also recall hearing several reports about fears of child trafficking, specifically to the DR where it is has long been known to be a place where kids are sold into various forms of slavery. I didn't hear * lot * about it, but I do remember it was brought up. It's been one of Haiti's biggest non-secret secrets for as long as I can remember ( at least 30+ years). I don't think the Haitians are trying to make *an example* out of the Americans, I think they may finally be trying to let the world know that enough is enough. Maybe it's just window dressing on the part of the Haitian gov't, time will tell. Corruption and graft is a way of life there, that's no big secret.
One thing that really stuck in my craw was the fact that Silsby & Co. had to have zip ethnographical knowledge of the area if they thought Haitian kids would be warmly welcomed in the DR - the 2 countries have a history of deep seated hatred for each other. As for the others who seem to have had less knowledge about the scheme than she did, at best I think they were guilty of stupidity. At worst perhaps they're just turning on their leader because she hasn't kept her promises to them. I can understand stupidity, everyone does really stupid things at one time or another. Maybe I'm just fortunate to have not ended up in a place where they are now, maybe my own past stupidity in various areas has jaded me.
I mean really - would any of you think of even vacationing in any other country w/out first buying a travel guide that included (as the ones I've gotten do) the political climate? Wouldn't you want to know where it was or wasn't safe to travel? Did none of these people even look up information on our own State Dept.'s travel site? That's where I start when planning out of country travel. That's where *all* adoptive parents are directed when considering foreign adoptions. I think that a church supported (if not financially, surely the Idaho churches supported the folks taking the trip enough to defend them) *mission trip* would have had in place at least a quickie meeting to let them know what they were in for. One of my kids went on a mission trip and had to have several meetings beforehand to be educated on the do's and dont's of being a guest in a foreign country.

They put their trust in the wrong person as a leader. She must talk a fast line of bull to convince them she knew what she was doing. I certainly agree with you. I don't even drive to a different city and stay at a motel or eat somewhere without knowing ahead of time if it's a bad neighborhood much less travel to a foreign country like a blind fool.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

momrajum -
I sincerely doubt her intentions were anything close to *good*. If they were, why did she lie about so much and so often? That fact that she lied, and what she lied about, has been documented, do a web search and you'll find out all sorts of corroboration.
I'd like to believe that she had good intent, truly I would. I can't believe it when every day evidence mounts against her to the contrary.
And reading her body/face language from the first time I saw her on the news set a red light and gong off in my brain.
Yes, I have sympathy for anyone in that mess that did have good intentions. They must feel, besides fear, like the planet's biggest fools at this point. And they have given our country, their church, their religious denomination, & their families a black eye. Seeing as there has been so much talk from folks who are using this incident as proof that Christians are hypocritical rat bastids, that's gotta hurt.
Doesn't anyone ever use the old adage *the road to hell is paved with good intentions* anymore? Folks have mentioned that they think those who were ignorant of Silsby's plans were acting on their emotions. That's not hard for me to believe, but ai yi yi - is that how we want our kids to make decisions when they grow up? Are they the sort of folks you would hold up as examples to your kids?
They may have been ignorant, they may not be guilty of conspiracy with Silsby, but they *are* guilty of transporting kids across the border, they *did* do what they are accused of doing, even though they may not had knowledge about Silsby's plans. Personally, at this point, w/out having enough info, I haven't formed an opinion about them yet. Silsby, yes. My verdict is still out on Coulter, though I find it hard to believe that someone who was as close to Silsby as she was was totally clueless. Have considered that either Silsby has something on her to make her dance to her tune, or she has some kinda desperation in her life that caused her to think she had to do whatever Silsby told her to do, go where she told her to go.

I wish I could clearly express what I'm thinking about Silsby. I bet in her life, she has no problem breaking rules because in her mind, her way is best. Other ppl just don't get how smart and right she is. Other people being the law, the court system, the people who set the speed limit...etc. She is SO right, that none of that matters. So that's what I mean by her good intentions. I don't think her intention was to harm the children. She thinks that her way is best, so whatever harm was done, well her good deeds will certainly FAR outweigh that!! you know?

can someone help me out here?? lol

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Melissa

Okay, I get where you're coming from now.
I don't even think she cared whether or not she hurt anyone, just so long as she got what she wanted.
That's not good intentions, is it? It's selfishness, self-absorption, and anti-social - isn't it?

Good intentions take into account rules set in place. If someone doesn't like the rules they can work within a system to change them (sometimes), or outside of the system to bring about change. We would be living in a vigilante environment if everyone acted the way Silsby did.
There is big, big, big money in international adoptions, way more than needed to cover the costs of caring for kids.
Silsby isn't the first or only person to try this sort of thing, she just got caught.
She didn't honor her financial obligations in many areas of her life, both personal and professional. Most of the people who pull what she did also come from that sort of background, and they see this as an easy way to rake in the bucks. Hiding behind a religious group, especially a group that feels they are misunderstood or persecuted, is the ideal set up for them to do this sort of thing for much longer than you'd believe - even after they've been caught red handed with hands in the cookie jar.

I can speak from a bit of an educated position on this, as one who is about to go on a trip to the DR.

We have been planning our trip since October. I have not looked at the state department's website or gotten any travel guides.

What we have done is spent a lot of time raising money and collecting things for care packages and learning about what the children in the orphanage we'll be working in like and need. We've been learning some basic Spanish phrases that will help us communicate with the children. We have learned some songs in Spanish, and have been discussing with others who have been to the DR through this same organization's summer program things regarding customs in the homes of the DR families who will feed us a meal, etc.

We'll spend a lot of time busting our tails working there, and we're more engaged with the aspects of that work than we are with learning about what is safe and what is not.

That may sound foolish, but we're not going there on some random trip by ourselves. There is a full time staff at the orphanage, and they run groups like ours through all summer long. There are about 300 street children in their village (children who actually have homes and families, but whose parents are gone all day leaving small children to fend for themselves. The ones who run the orphanage year-round are aware that in the summer there will be many kids hanging around the orphanage with nothing to do and nowhere to go, so several years ago they began having groups of teenagers and their sponsors from churches in the states come and spend 1-2 weeks helping out with the street kids.

Oreos are about $10 a package in the DR, and families don't have that kind of money. We're doing things like contacting Nabisco to see if they will donate a bunch of those 100 calorie pack sized mini Oreos for us to take to give the children at snacktime one afternoon. We're trying to figure out what sort of craft items we can take along that won't take up too much room in our luggage (now that additional bags cost money) and that a child who has no actual room of his or her own would enjoy having, but that won't require much in the way of storage. We're told that they absolutely love brightly colored arts and crafts, so we're trying to think creatively along those lines.

We have been told that there are some Dominican families that like to host the gringos for a meal when the gringos are in town, and learning what to do and not to do in their homes. Apparently they will cook a meal for us and leave us alone in the room to eat it. They do not stay in the room while their guests are eating. It is rude to leave something untasted, and an honor if you eat every bite, even though it means none will be left for them.

Because we are going through an established organization, and will have our time orchestrated by people (Americans) who reside there permanently, we are not worried about many of the things you mentioned.

What you say is true about Haitians and Dominicans not getting along. The Dominicans seem wealthy by Haitian standards, apparently. The Haitian children who live in the Dominican dump we will make visits to run and hide when the DR police escort us to the dump because it is actually illegal for them to be there, and the DR police would not treat them kindly. The few Dominican adults who live there will have befriended the Haitian children and will help them hide, and the 'godfather' will apparently give the children the care packages from us after we leave if we have been accompanied by the DR police. If we have gone without them, the Haitian children will not necessarily run and hide.

At least that is the way I understand it. I may find it is somewhat different when we are actually there.

If the people from Utah are in the same shoes I am - learning the ropes from the people there - the head lady may very well have led them astray for whatever reason. Perhaps because she was trying to do something grand because she's a narcissist, or perhaps because she is just dumb or naive, or perhaps because she truly thought she knew what she was doing. Anything is possible.

And while the Haitians, with their Creole/French-originating culture do not get along with the Dominicans, whose heritage is Spanish, when you are dealing with children it's apt to be an entirely different ballgame. If the children have spent much of their lives in the orphanage under the care of people who don't have that cross-cultural hatred, who have been taught and nurtured by a set of missionary-minded people who sing songs like "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight..." they would not have the typical "I hate people from the DR" mindset. And if the orphanages in both nations are run by the same parent organization, the children are probably very much aware of the existence of the other. The people we'll be going through have sites in both Haiti and the DR, and people who have worked in one have likely done some pinch-hitting at the other.

My understanding is that it's just been mayhem there, and if your orphanage has just crumbled to the ground and you have thirty hungry children who have nowhere but the ground to sleep, and you have a place across the border with some extra space and a food and water supply, it would be easy to decide that if you could just get the kids across the border to the other place, things would be better, even if there is a little bit of ethnic tension.

I think narcissist is the word you are looking for.


ETA: I just did a little reading up on this situation, and had a question for beckyandplacidio (sp?) or someone else who might know the answer. Becky, in the other thread you said that they did all know each other (and I think said they all went to the same church). This article seems to explain in pretty good detail who they were and where they were from, and it doesn't sound like all ten were from the same church. Seems like about half were and half weren't. http://www.ktvb.com/home/What-we-kno...-83398887.html

I haven't seen the main lady interviewed on tv, and seeing her might give me a different vibe than the articles I've read, but from what I gather she sounds like one to rush head first into big projects without counting the cost ahead of time. My guess is that her heart is in the right place, but that she also is probably one of those full-tilt people whose actions are irresponsible because she doesn't bother with the most critical details when she pursues a larger-than-life goal. I have a relative like this... a true believer, always in the thick of something legitimately, but rarely armed with the details. She had a business that contracted some work out to SAHM's and gave them the opportunity for a nice little supplement. She had lots of cash coming in and was able to do more things than ever before. It was exciting and she was so grateful... and she was very generous with those who worked for her... and she was a very hard worker herself, up all hours in the night and again first thing in the morning.... and it took her a few years to catch on how much she needed an accountant, and ended up with penalties out the wazoo because she was not keeping track of everything correctly. In the end it ruined her business. I don't doubt that she wanted to do a great, right thing, but that critical detail gene just seems to be missing from her brain functioning make-up.

I kind of see my relative in the pieces I'm reading about this Silby chick.

I agree. I don't understand why people are making excuses for her. If anything gives Christianity a bad name, it isn't the news reports on these wackos, it's the mainstream Christians defending them.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Narcissistic people DO NOT have their heart in the right place. Everything they do is for themselves. They may appear altruristic (sp?) but their actions are for themselves--to further their goal, to impress someone who is in a position of power, to make others think they are a "good and "nice" person.

What little I have read about this Silsby woman, makes me believe that she would be diagnosed as "Narcissistic" by a PhD.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

One doesn't do good deeds in the name of anyone or anything. One helps someone else because they hope that if they were ever in need, they would receive reciprocal help. It's built into the DNA of every living being and assists with species survival.

Some people may say that they do things in the name of a higher being, but, that's not actually their motivation.

I must not be expressing myself very well. People do things because it's the right thing to do which in my mind is "for the sake of good". Or for the sake of what's right. Or however you want to say it. And yes because if it happened to us, we'd want someone to help us. In my mind it's all for sake of "good" or "what's the right thing to do".
Yes it's in most of our DNA but there are people who don't feel that way. I've seen it on this board when this tragedy first happened. People saying survival of the fittest, or the Haitians deserved it for some reason. As a matter of fact when I asked "would you feel the same way if it happened to your children or grandchildren or would you just say it's a horrible tragedy?" not one of them responded. Some people only feel compelled to help when it's someone close to them. Or maybe those who said these things wouldn't even help their own.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Right - I just meant that when the other poster (was it Momziller? I can't see the thread in my posting window) couldn't think of the right word to describe what she was thinking, I thought 'narcissist" was the word she was trying to come up with. I haven't seen enough about this woman to know for sure that *I* would think that... but it sounds like maybe I would.

I realize that what I might *think* isn't a dx.

You are absolutely wrong.

I'm sorry you haven't encountered anyone truly selfless in your life.

Narcissist is exactly what I was thinking. That's what I see in the things I've heard reported. Marilyn, your description is exactly what I was trying to say.

It may "look" like she is doing something good, but her motivations make it not so good.

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Melissa

wow!

I'm sorry that you are so jaded and cynical! Some people really do do things simply because it's the "right" thing to do with no motive or hidden agenda.....
Some people don't think twice about helping others---meaning it never crosses their mind "I better do this so in case I ever need help someone will help..." They really don't.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I don't think that many people put much thought into helping others. They just do it. What I outlined was the reason why we do it. It has nothing to do with cynicism or being jaded, just clinical observation.

When I do something "nice" or "good" for someone I am not at all thinking about what could be done for me I just do it because it's the right thing to do. There is also a "selfish" motive that is it makes me feel good to do things to others if you can consider that selfish. I am doing it because it's right and it makes me feel good.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

If you are doing something *good* because it makes you feel good, that good feeling is the reason you are doing it, that is the payoff.
Do we have to teach our children how to be selfish, how to care only about their needs and wants? No, we have to teach them to share, comfort others, put others needs or wants before their own.
I have yet to see a baby or toddler that did *good* without first being taught there is some kind of payoff. (mom will smile at me, others will smile at me, I will not get a negative reaction, yaddayaddayadda).
Sub-consciously there are reasons why folks do *good*, we just may not remember those reasons.
People's moral upbringings begin right from birth and so many things we learn from the way we have been raised are in the backs of our minds, not like the conscious decisions or thoughts we have that if we do a good deed we will get a reward (someone will be nice to us, folks will think we are decent, etc.).
Compassion is not something we are born with, it is something we are taught. Again, look at young kids as an example.

I still disagree. People do good for the sake of goodness. They may have had to be taught that that's the reason, and positive reinforcement surely helped teach that, but for those who truly *learn* it, yes, they do it because they have come to see that it is the right thing to do.

It all comes down to love.

1 Corinthians 13:
1If I speak in the tonguesa of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I only feel good because I am hoping it's making the recipient feel good. Most of the "good" things I do I never see the results of I am just assuming that whomever is benefiting will have their live enhanced in some way and they'll feel good about it that's what makes me feel good.
Even when I actually hand a stranger a meal or a toy or a blanket or whatever I don't know the person I will never see them again and I have no idea whether they just throw it in the garbage. I just know that I felt something needed to be done and I did it.

The only payoff for me if you want to look at it that way is every good deed makes the world a better place so I guess in that sense it makes the world a better place for all of us so it's a better world for me. I guess if you put it that way my "payoff" is living in a better world.

However I don't do good deeds thinking "oh boy now my life will be better" as a matter of fact I have at times given when it creates a hardship for me in some way. So what would you consider the payoff in that situation?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Remember she is a self professed super smart human being .....thus she must be right ! wid, you are again, well spoken and have relevant points.

dl

And, because you do it to feel good, your motives are selfish.

Nope.

Feeling good is a nice by-product. It's not the motive.

Just call me selfish then lol

If I were selfish I would never do anything for anyone other than myself. Selfish..self..ish
Is it that you CAN'T understand or that you DON'T understand?

ETA or REFUSE to understand or PRETEND to not understand?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Human beings, along with every other being on this planet, has certain instincts. One big one is survival of the individual; another is survival of the species.

Doing good deeds makes us feel good; it's instictive. We all feel good when we do good deeds. We also hope to be treated in the same way that we treat others. It ups the odds of our survival along with that of our species.

It's simple. It's the way we were made.

I don't think it all boils down to instinct. There are a lot of things people and other animals do that aren't purely instinctual. Instincts are hard-wired, other behaviors are learned. Survival of the individual and of the species aren't instincts, they're the results of certain behaviors. Some of those behaviors may be instinctual and other are learned.

I don't need the bible to tell me what is good. Some people do. Whatever floats your boat.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

This is where faith comes in.

We are more than just lumps of cells.

If you're not on board with that, this conversation really can't go anywhere.

You believe it's faith. Others don't. Many people can have a conversation about what motivates charitable acts without having to agree that it's motivated by faith or that we are "just lumps of cells." If everyone agreed on the motivation, then the conversation really can't go anywhere. We'd all agree and there would be nothing more to discuss. If you don't want to consider other possibilities, that's your choice. By your own reasoning, you have nothing more to add to the conversation.

Edited to add:
What I don't get is that it seems like everything is binary for you. Something is right or wrong, good or evil, on or off, black or white, freeloading or hardworking. Don't you see ever see gray areas?

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Faith doesn't just mean believe in God. I'm sure even those who don't believe have faith. Don't you have faith that the sun will rise each day? Don't you have faith that you will make the right decisions in life? Don't you have faith that your children and your husband (if applicable) love you? Don't you have faith that you'll get a paycheck when it's due? When you get in your car don't you have faith the brakes will work?
Everyone has faith in something.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

To me, faith is a belief in something or that something will happen without conditions. It's set in stone. The sun is something I have faith in for at least my lifetime. I expect the sun to rise each day because it's done that every other day. So, I suspect it will do it again tomorrow. I don't have faith that I'll make the right decisions in life. I try my best, but I know I'll make mistakes. I don't believe that my child and husband will love me unconditionally. If I'm a jerk, I'd expect to lose that love. I hope my paycheck will arrive when it's due, but if it didn't I'd do something about it. I wouldn't just keep hoping it would show up. I depend on my brakes working, but I take my car in for regular maintenance to help ensure that they will.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

And after making sure your brakes are taken care of don't you have faith they'll work? Do you have faith in your mechanic? Don't you have faith that you family loves you (unless you do something really horrendous to them)?

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Thanks, dl.

Anna, I do appreciate the point you're trying to make about faith.

I will say, though, unabashedly, that the faith of which I was speaking was faith in God. When you're letting the Holy Spirit guide your thoughts and actions, love really is the motive.

That's not to say that people of faith never screw up and let their human nature take over, but in its purest form, love is not selfish. It is the absolute antithesis of selfishness.

Wow,
You are right, it's about half that were from the same church as her, 3 others from Twin Falls, not too far away, and then a separate individual from Kansas(I think?)

Was there also one from Amarillo, TX?

You know, I was thinking about this some more. Faith seems like too strong a word to me. "Expect" fits better with my feelings about it. I expect for my brakes to work, but them failing isn't beyond my imagination.

Anyway, in the context of charitable acts, people's use of the word "faith" does seem to have a religious component. So for charitable acts, it isn't faith that drives me. I don't expect some reward when I die. I don't expect others to give back to me. I've always given a lot to animal shelters. Those cats and dogs have no idea that I've done it, and I don't expect anything in return from them.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I certainly don't help people because I expect a reward when I die. Plain and simple I do it because it's the RIGHT thing to do. I don't do anything in life because I'm expecting to go to Heaven because of it.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.