Since the other Obama thread is about to be closed...

[wowitsdark]

I'm posing this in a new one.

Can someone explain why it is fair that union members with the most expensive health care packages in the nation have specifically been exempted from being taxed on those policies until the year 2018, while all other American workers who have lesser policies (with lower-cost premiums, and therefore higher deductibles that the employee must be responsible for him/herself) will be taxed on their health care benefits as a way to help pay premiums for those who are not insured?

The example - a real one - that I gave in the other thread was this:

1) We have our health coverage through my husband's employer. They pay 60% of our premium amount, which amounts to about $10K/year, give or take a thousand. Under Obama's plan, my husband is about to get a $10K RAISE. Of course he will not bring home a penny more than he did before. It's just that his W-2 is going to show that he made $10K more than the year before (beginning in 2013) solely because the money the company pays for our health insurance is no longer a 'benefit' they are 'giving' us. It is now counted as earned income. We will pay about $2,500 - $3,000 more in income taxes because of this artificial rise in 'salary'. Mind you - his check will be the same. His W-2 will just reflect $10K more and we will be taxed accordingly.

2) My brother-in-law is Union. His policy costs about $25K/year and it is paid 100% by his employer. It is a 'cadillac policy' and as a result, he gets eye and dental care at next to nothing (our eyes and teeth are NOT covered by my husband's employer - all those expenses are out of pocket for us!). He also has a piddly $100/pp deductible on each family member, and about a $250 cutoff at which it goes from 80/20 to 100%. His wife had a baby and they paid $8, total, because she wanted a tv in the room and their insurance didn't cover that. I had a baby the same year and it cost our family around $3,200 out of pocket.... so not only do we have to pay well over $7,000/year towards our own premiums, we also face higher out-of-pocket costs.

Because a deal was struck in the back room with the Unions, my brother-in-law's W-2 will not reflect a raise for him until the year 2018. That 'raise' happens for us in 2013.

The rationale was, "Gosh, we GET so much more than everybody else that it would be unfair to TAX us like you are taxing everybody else! We'll have to pay MORE than other people because we HAVE more, and that is a shock to our system we just can't absorb!"

I thought the Democratic mantra was "Those who have more need to PAY more!"

And yet they created a fix whereby the unions - the Blue State Union crowd - who has MORE won't just pay LESS, they won't pay at ALL for a full five years.

How can this be justified as fair?

[kathytheshopper]

I believe it's called back room dealings! The unions have quite a bit of political influence. It's who you know.
Did you read that Pelosi'a approval rating is at 11%? I also heard Nixons was in the 20's right before he resigned!

[kathytheshopper]

I had an interesting dream last night. Since Obama's coming to our town on Thursday I dreamt that there was just a so-so crowd for him but there was another larger crowd next to his crowd chanting "we miss Bush"! lol It would never happen in this liberal town but it was such a nice dream...........

[kokoisland]

The study found that under the compromise version of the tax, 17 percent of those affected in 2019 would be union workers and 83 percent would not. It also projects that 71 percent of the dollar savings from the supposed "wet kiss for labor" would actually go to nonunion workers. So the chief beneficiaries of the "sweetheart deal" are not union members at all.
Cadillac Plans and Unions: Who Benefits? | FactCheck.org

Updated article
But the tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, according to an analysis partly authored by a former Bush adviser. Under even lower thresholds than the bill has now, union workers would have made up only 17 percent of those affected by the tax in 2019, the analysis said.
A Final Weekend of Whoppers? | FactCheck.org

[wowitsdark]

Originally Posted by kokoisland

The study found that under the compromise version of the tax, 17 percent of those affected in 2019 would be union workers and 83 percent would not. It also projects that 71 percent of the dollar savings from the supposed "wet kiss for labor" would actually go to nonunion workers. So the chief beneficiaries of the "sweetheart deal" are not union members at all.
Cadillac Plans and Unions: Who Benefits? | FactCheck.org

Updated article
But the tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, according to an analysis partly authored by a former Bush adviser. Under even lower thresholds than the bill has now, union workers would have made up only 17 percent of those affected by the tax in 2019, the analysis said.
A Final Weekend of Whoppers? | FactCheck.org

Uh, I'm sorry but that's a stupid way to look at it.

My question was whether or not it was fair that union members get a pass simply because they are primarily Democrats and got to strongarm their way into a 'sweet deal'.

Bottom line: If they were forced to pay the same tax the rest of us were there would be more in the federal coffers, right?

Looks like the libs just helped the rich unionized workers stay richer while slapping a tax on those making less and getting only partial benefits.

What a crock. lol

[annadrose]

The unions had their place and without them American workers would have gotten the shaft. That being said...they have outlived their usefulness and they are run by crooked money grubbers who take advantage of American workers. Just look at the auto industry a big example. Only Union "workers" continued to get paid for years after not working which drains money from working people. And many unions have the same President who has been there for years. I used to be pro union until I educated myself about what's going on these days with them. And until I had a personal experience with them. What a crock that was.

[jujubee2]

It's a mixed bag:
Cadillac Plans and Unions: Who Benefits? | FactCheck.org

[kokoisland]

Originally Posted by wowitsdark

My question was whether or not it was fair that union members get a pass simply because they are primarily Democrats and got to strongarm their way into a 'sweet deal'.

Once again

Originally Posted by kokoisland

The study found that under the compromise version of the tax, 17 percent of those affected in 2019 would be union workers and 83 percent would not. It also projects that 71 percent of the dollar savings from the supposed "wet kiss for labor" would actually go to nonunion workers. So the chief beneficiaries of the "sweetheart deal" are not union members at all.

No matter how anti-union you are, unions do benefit all workers in one way or another. This is a prime example. So don't worry union bashers, they still have your back!

[wowitsdark]

Liberals always rail against tax codes when they do not tax higher-earners MORE on their higher earnings.

Conservatives generally want taxes to be an equal percentage regardless of income.

Liberals say that is not fair, believing those who make more should pay a higher percentage.

Conservatives rebut, "The wealthy are often business owners. The more they make, the more people they can hire. The more things they buy, the more people who make those very products can remain employed. Don't tax the rich EXTRA percentages just because they EARN more!"

And liberals contend, "If you make more, you must PAY more!"

So... why on earth is this not hypocritical?

It is a tax imposed on those who have LESS in the way of benefits that is not imposed on those who have MUCH MORE in benefits.

I am not for taxing ANYONE in this way....

But if you are GOING to tax ANYONE, you should tax EVERYONE.

It's legit, IMHO, to want to keep money in the hands of those who have earned it, regardless of how much they have earned. IT BELONGS TO THEM!!

But the benefits tax imposed on the non-union workers is not being imposed on MONEY they have earned. It is being imposed on a BENEFIT. They get no CASH from the benefit from which to suddenly pay this new tax.

It's like when someone wins something on a game show. The tax on the prize may be more than they can handle, so they have to sell the prize to pay the taxes on the prize. But at least in that case, they have an asset to sell to get cash to pay the tax. In this case, non-union workers will simply pay a higher tax.

While union workers continue to rake in the cadillac bennies, consequence free.

That, my friends, flies in the face of everything the Democrats claimed they stood for... and it's all so they can reward those who vote for them.

It's all about POWER.

[momrajum]

I'm afraid I agree with the statement that it is all about power. The liberal attitude that "we" the lowly citizens need them to take care of us turns my stomach. Laws should be there to protect us....don't go too fast in your car, if you steal, you go to jail, don't kill each other etc....and of course there are regulations that need to be in place. But it's just gone too far and it will go farther. We are losing our freedom as American citizens.

If nothing else it will be interesting to sit back and watch.

It's like a frog being dropped in cold water...they don't notice when it starts to boil.....

[kathytheshopper]

Originally Posted by momrajum

I'm afraid I agree with the statement that it is all about power. The liberal attitude that "we" the lowly citizens need them to take care of us turns my stomach. Laws should be there to protect us....don't go too fast in your car, if you steal, you go to jail, don't kill each other etc....and of course there are regulations that need to be in place. But it's just gone too far and it will go farther. We are losing our freedom as American citizens.

If nothing else it will be interesting to sit back and watch.

It's like a frog being dropped in cold water...they don't notice when it starts to boil.....

It also makes me sick. We are responsible for OURSELVES. It's not the governments responsibilty to provide everything we want, etc... I just don't understand the lib mindset at all. I'm not even sure it's liberalism anymore, I think it's just plain socialism.

[jujubee2]

It isn't socialism! You folks have been watching too much Limbaugh. (Didn't he promise to leave the country if the bill got passed? Why is he still here?)

I hope none of you have kids in public school, use the highways, use the library, or are on (or plan to be on) medicare. It's all socialism dagnabit!

[ILUVLUCY420]

I also wanted to say that I am very happy and proud that the Democrats managed to get this health reform bill passed into law. That is way more then any other GOP has done in the past 8 years. I will galdly pay more taxes to ensure that my family and friends and poor people receive better heathcare overall. As far as taxes are concerned they are inevitable and sad lol part of life. Again why why are the Republicans still not concerned with the trillions of dollars that have been spent on this war,I still cannot believe people think it was right and we belonged there yet when it comes to better healthcare for us Americans put that on the back burner its not fair . Makes no sense to me at all. Peace for our nation, because I can only assume things are going to get so much worse with so many people who were againist this bill. Catherine

[annadrose]

Originally Posted by jujubee2

It isn't socialism! You folks have been watching too much Limbaugh. (Didn't he promise to leave the country if the bill got passed? Why is he still here?)

I hope none of you have kids in public school, use the highways, use the library, or are on (or plan to be on) medicare. It's all socialism dagnabit!

We all pay taxes for the privilege of using those things. As for the health insurance I already pay by way of working for my health insurance as does my husband. Therefore I (a member of the public) will be paying for something that other people use many of whom will be deemed "too impoverished" to pay for it themselves.

There's a big difference. And for the record I don't listen to Limbaugh.

[wowitsdark]

I do use our public schools, but it is not the way I prefer things be arranged. I just don't have any other good choice locally unless I want to homeschool. I am paying for them - thousands of dollars a year, even in the years I will not have children in the system.

Despite the fact that approximately 70% of our local real estate taxes paid to go support our public school system, it is still operating in the red. Why? Because, as with all things Uncle Sam, somewhere along the line the decision was made to make schools be All Things to All People.

Soccer. Football. Track. Basketball. Wrestling. Tennis. Golf. Cheer. Band. Speech. Choir. Show Choir. Spanish Club. German Club. French Club.

On and on it goes, and it all costs a fortune. They had to cut the number of teachers assistants by 2/3 of the previous year's amount just to keep from going in the hole even worse.

What is the biggest financial burden to the school district beyond that of teacher salaries?

1) The retirement benefits paid to retired teachers
2) The $22K insurance premiums carried for each of approximately 110 teachers in our Class A/B district.

[kathytheshopper]

Originally Posted by jujubee2

It isn't socialism! You folks have been watching too much Limbaugh. (Didn't he promise to leave the country if the bill got passed? Why is he still here?)

I hope none of you have kids in public school, use the highways, use the library, or are on (or plan to be on) medicare. It's all socialism dagnabit!

Rush can leave after all those liberal nutjobs (Baldwin, Saradon, Garafalo, etc...) who still haven't left when Bush was elected leave the country!!

[ILUVLUCY420]

Well as far as school taxes go this is my beef especially here in our school district, where for years the elderly residents kept voting down to have our taxes increased so that we could as a school have a full time kindergarten program. Here on Long Island half day kindergarten is ancient if your district does not have a full day program. Needless to say it was finally passed last year and we now have full day kindergarten. However what gets me upset is the elderly who fought againist it, at one time when their children were younger and took advantage of this wonderful school district there were elderly people who paid into their childrens education. Now I do believe that seniors should receive a tax cut and not have to pay that much for the education, but they cannot be totally excluded from not paying anything. Peace. Catherine

[kvmj]

Originally Posted by kathytheshopper

It also makes me sick. We are responsible for OURSELVES. It's not the governments responsibilty to provide everything we want, etc... I just don't understand the lib mindset at all. I'm not even sure it's liberalism anymore, I think it's just plain socialism.

While it's true that we are indeed responsible for ourselves, the government is responsible for the general welfare of it's citizens. We have more than 50 million uninsured in this country. 62% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expense. Of that 62%, 78% had health insurance. It is far too big of a burden for what's left of the middle class and getting worse.

You may be willing to watch your neighbors suffer and die; I'm not.

[ILUVLUCY420]

To Kvmj love your last sentence thanks so much. Peace. Catherine

[kvmj]

Originally Posted by wowitsdark

I'm posing this in a new one.

Can someone explain why it is fair that union members with the most expensive health care packages in the nation have specifically been exempted from being taxed on those policies until the year 2018, while all other American workers who have lesser policies (with lower-cost premiums, and therefore higher deductibles that the employee must be responsible for him/herself) will be taxed on their health care benefits as a way to help pay premiums for those who are not insured?

The example - a real one - that I gave in the other thread was this:

1) We have our health coverage through my husband's employer. They pay 60% of our premium amount, which amounts to about $10K/year, give or take a thousand. Under Obama's plan, my husband is about to get a $10K RAISE. Of course he will not bring home a penny more than he did before. It's just that his W-2 is going to show that he made $10K more than the year before (beginning in 2013) solely because the money the company pays for our health insurance is no longer a 'benefit' they are 'giving' us. It is now counted as earned income. We will pay about $2,500 - $3,000 more in income taxes because of this artificial rise in 'salary'. Mind you - his check will be the same. His W-2 will just reflect $10K more and we will be taxed accordingly.

2) My brother-in-law is Union. His policy costs about $25K/year and it is paid 100% by his employer. It is a 'cadillac policy' and as a result, he gets eye and dental care at next to nothing (our eyes and teeth are NOT covered by my husband's employer - all those expenses are out of pocket for us!). He also has a piddly $100/pp deductible on each family member, and about a $250 cutoff at which it goes from 80/20 to 100%. His wife had a baby and they paid $8, total, because she wanted a tv in the room and their insurance didn't cover that. I had a baby the same year and it cost our family around $3,200 out of pocket.... so not only do we have to pay well over $7,000/year towards our own premiums, we also face higher out-of-pocket costs.

Because a deal was struck in the back room with the Unions, my brother-in-law's W-2 will not reflect a raise for him until the year 2018. That 'raise' happens for us in 2013.

The rationale was, "Gosh, we GET so much more than everybody else that it would be unfair to TAX us like you are taxing everybody else! We'll have to pay MORE than other people because we HAVE more, and that is a shock to our system we just can't absorb!"

I thought the Democratic mantra was "Those who have more need to PAY more!"

And yet they created a fix whereby the unions - the Blue State Union crowd - who has MORE won't just pay LESS, they won't pay at ALL for a full five years.

How can this be justified as fair?

Life isn't fair, it never has been. A deal was struck with the unions because Pelosi had to have their support. The exemption isn't permanent though, it expires in 2018.

[KellyJef]

Originally Posted by kvmj

Life isn't fair, it never has been. A deal was struck with the unions because Pelosi had to have their support. The exemption isn't permanent though, it expires in 2018.

No, life isn't fair -- and thanks to Obama/Pelosi, it is now even MORE unfair!!

As to your comment "The exemption isn't permanent, though, it expires in 2018", are you kidding?? Is that supposed to make us feel better that the rest of us are "only" getting screwed for the next 8 years???

[wowitsdark]

Originally Posted by kvmj

Life isn't fair, it never has been. A deal was struck with the unions because Pelosi had to have their support. The exemption isn't permanent though, it expires in 2018.

But I thought the whole "Those who have more should pay more" was a foundational principle of the liberal movement.

Guess we now know how much those principles are worth. They're worth votes, and can be sold when necessary.

[kathytheshopper]

Originally Posted by kvmj

While it's true that we are indeed responsible for ourselves, the government is responsible for the general welfare of it's citizens. We have more than 50 million uninsured in this country. 62% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expense. Of that 62%, 78% had health insurance. It is far too big of a burden for what's left of the middle class and getting worse.

You may be willing to watch your neighbors suffer and die; I'm not.

Now that last comment was just rude. I'm the pro-lifer remember? I never said we don't need health care reform however I feel this was pushed through way too quickly. And how does this health care bill affect the 78% of the bankruptcies that were insured? What does this new bill do when you have insurance and it doesn't cover all the bills? Is that even addressed?
I would still like to know how they are going to collect the "fines" from the people who don't get insurance.
Also, what other country really is better than here? Some people can't see the forest for the trees......

[KellyJef]

Originally Posted by kvmj

You may be willing to watch your neighbors suffer and die; I'm not.

That has got to be one of the absolutely nastiest comments I've ever read on this board

You know damn well that NOBODY is willing to watch their neighbors suffer and die

Geez -- could you be any more holier than thou???

[wowitsdark]

Originally Posted by kathytheshopper

I would still like to know how they are going to collect the "fines" from the people who don't get insurance.

They are hiring 60K - 70K new IRS agents to track who has paid and who hasn't, and they will impose fines on those who are lawbreakers.

The Health Police are coming to get you, Kathy!

[marilynk]

Originally Posted by kvmj

While it's true that we are indeed responsible for ourselves, the government is responsible for the general welfare of it's citizens. We have more than 50 million uninsured in this country. 62% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expense. Of that 62%, 78% had health insurance. It is far too big of a burden for what's left of the middle class and getting worse.

You may be willing to watch your neighbors suffer and die; I'm not.

I don't think anyone is willing to watch their neighbors suffer and die---that's just an assinine, rude and vile comment. I think a lot of people feel that there has to be a better answer than the one that was just shoved down our throats.

[wowitsdark]

Originally Posted by marilynk

I don't think anyone is willing to watch their neighbors suffer and die---that's just an assinine, rude and vile comment. I think a lot of people feel that there has to be a better answer than the one that was just shoved down our throats.

Applause from the gallery to this!

[kathytheshopper]

Thanks wowitsdark, marilynk and KellyJef.

[ILUVLUCY420]

Personally speaking for myself did not take the comment as rude or vile as being there for so long I definitely and we all have heard worse, so give kvmj a break. It can get the best of us who are on the other side of the fence here with the passing of the healthcare reform bill . For the ones who wanted it are happy and while the others who did not are not happy and I wish we could come to some sort of agreement however I feel that will not happen. But again much much worse evil vicious comments have been said here before. To Kellyjef I know we do not agree but to hear you say we now have to suffer for 8 more years we already suffered the last 8 years with Bush. Peace. Catherine

[kokoisland]

Originally Posted by kathytheshopper

I never said we don't need health care reform however I feel this was pushed through way too quickly.

Over a year is "way too quickly", you have to be joking.

In fact Dems have been talking reform for at least 20 years and you could go back many more years.

The major problem with this bill is that it didn't go far enough but it's a start.

Originally Posted by kathytheshopper

Some people can't see the forest for the trees......

I agree and the GOP tops that list

[kathytheshopper]

Originally Posted by kokoisland

Over a year is "way too quickly", you have to be joking.

In fact Dems have been talking reform for at least 20 years and you could go back many more years.

The major problem with this bill is that it didn't go far enough but it's a start.



I agree and the GOP tops that list

You kind of made my point.....the Dems have been "talking" reform for at least 20 years.......how many of the people who voted actually read the whole bill? How come they are all exempt? They finally get control, whip together a bill and push it through.....it's going to be a disaster and if you take your blinders off you might be able to start seeing it...oh wait, libs don't know how to take off their blinders....lol

Oh the GOP can see way beyond.......you just wait a few years and you will be rethinking your stance....ask annadrose who has changed her mind on Obama already..... Go Anna!!!

[kokoisland]

Originally Posted by annadrose

We all pay taxes for the privilege of using those things. As for the health insurance I already pay by way of working for my health insurance as does my husband. Therefore I (a member of the public) will be paying for something that other people use many of whom will be deemed "too impoverished" to pay for it themselves.

For years you already have been paying for the "impoverished" and uninsured. So your point is???

[kokoisland]

Originally Posted by kathytheshopper

You kind of made my point.....the Dems have been "talking" reform for at least 20 years.......how many of the people who voted actually read the whole bill? How come they are all exempt? They finally get control, whip together a bill and push it through.....it's going to be a disaster and if you take your blinders off you might be able to start seeing it...oh wait, libs don't know how to take off their blinders....lol

Oh the GOP can see way beyond.......you just wait a few years and you will be rethinking your stance....ask annadrose who has changed her mind on Obama already..... Go Anna!!!

This bill has been over a year in the making. What is your magic number for how long you think it should take to pass a bill.

The GOP can see no further than the next election.

Your comments about blinders is very mature.

No mind changing here. And I'd rather not ask annadrose's opinion.

[KellyJef]

Originally Posted by ILUVLUCY420

To Kellyjef I know we do not agree but to hear you say we now have to suffer for 8 more years we already suffered the last 8 years with Bush.

And yet another Bush-bashing comment that has NOTHING to do with the current discussion.

We've already "suffered" 1 year already with Obama, but don't worry we won't be having to "suffer" with Obama for 8 years

[annadrose]

Originally Posted by kokoisland

For years you already have been paying for the "impoverished" and uninsured. So your point is???

My point of putting "impoverished" in quotes is who will they consider impoverished? Will it be the working poor? Will it be those who feel entitled to get everything in life in free who now have another reason to not seek gainful employment? It seems that everything that gets passed to "help" people only helps those who qualify for these services. That would include people who won't work or who make excuses why they can't work. I'm not talking about people who have lost their jobs and are now finding it hard to get something else due to the economy. I'm talking about people who have been making excuses for years and don't put forth any effort to do anything to make their lives better. There is class of people in this country who believe the government's job is to pay their way. That's what I object to.

And yes I do regret voting for Obama. I'm not the only one either. There is no way that double talking man is going to be elected again. He knows that and will continue to press through his agenda quickly disregarding the will of the people.

Change you can believe in. I was dumb enough to fall for it. I translated it in my mind to "change that will make America a better place, a stronger place, a place with more jobs where people can once again believe in the American dream."

I guess I should have hired a translator instead of doing it myself.

[Xhausted1]

about the "watching them die" statement...

How will patients—particularly senior citizens—feel when their doctors and even hospitals tell them, “Sorry, but we’re only taking on non-Medicare patients who pay privately, in full”?

and don't anyone dare say "that will never happen" - It's happening now.
I can provide a number to a Doctor's office here in Little Rock, Ar that will tell you if you call presenting as a new patient that they are not currently accepting "new" medicare patients at this time.

and I think what sticks in my craw is that simple little "exemption" that was added in there. Quoting " Obamacare exempt some in Congress and the White House from having to buy the same health care plans that the law forces other Americans to purchase: President Obama, Vice President Biden, Cabinet members, top White House staff, congressional committee staff and leadership staff, such as those who work for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.)?" end quote

I too agree that they should "welcome and want to" experience it themselves. If it’s as good as promised, they’ll know it first-hand. If there are problems, they’ll be able to really understand them, as they should.”

[wowitsdark]

You're correct, Xhausted. Did you see that Walgreens in Washington will no longer do scripts for them since the government reimbursements are less than what the drugs themselves cost?

[lisacb]

Also, since nothing has been done to contain healthcare costs, insurers and hospitals are dropping each other when they cannot agree to how much the insurer will pay the hospitals. The insurers cannot afford to pay for all these extra costs without being able to raise rates. So, the promise that you will be able to keep your doctor is meaningless if your insurer drops your hospital or doctor's office...

Lisa

[marilynk]

[quote=Xhausted1;3380099]about the "watching them die" statement...

How will patients—particularly senior citizens—feel when their doctors and even hospitals tell them, “Sorry, but we’re only taking on non-Medicare patients who pay privately, in full”?

and don't anyone dare say "that will never happen" - It's happening now.
I can provide a number to a Doctor's office here in Little Rock, Ar that will tell you if you call presenting as a new patient that they are not currently accepting "new" medicare patients at this time.

end quote

[quote]
Hospitals cannot turn down patients who come in through the ER and need to be stabilized medically.

Doctors' office, regardless of the new stuff, have been hesitant to accept Medicare because they pay crap--absolutely NOTHING. I have seen a couple of Ambulance services pull up stakes in the middle of the night leaving communities w/o emergency services. (google Pafford Ambulance Service) because Medicare just quit compensating them.
Medicare is broken. Medicare needs fixed. How about we fix that, then we look at other things...*shrugs* I don't know. I just think that you should fix what's broken before you start adding on additional problems.

[ILUVLUCY420]

Yes kellyjef it does we suffered under the Bush/Cheney Administration for their 8 years and as a result it is why we will continue to suffer, remember Obama did not create all those problems from the last 8 years Bush and Cheney handed them over to our current president still shaking my head... Peace to that our country may find its way of out all our problems.

[tammyleeb]

I think if Obama really believed this was such a wonderful plan, and he was really looking out for the rest of us, he would accept this wonderful new insurance program as his health insurance, and also have all the other idiots up on the hill accept it! If he wants to show he is for the people, then why is this plan not acceptable for his family? We heard a year ago how things would improve once he became our new leader, so far....I have seen NO improvement. I actually have little faith in anyone involved in politics.....

[KellyJef]

Originally Posted by ILUVLUCY420

..........., remember Obama did not create all those problems from the last 8 years Bush and Cheney handed them over to our current president .

blah, blah, blah.

Repeating that tired old diatribe ad nauseum doesn't make it true

[ILUVLUCY420]

Blah blah blah back right at you Kellyjef just where were you when Bush was president and all the mess he caused our country were you out of country for 8 years . Remember we had a huge surplus when he came into office and then he entered into a war that has caused our country trillions of dollars and all the deaths and killings do you care Kellyjef what will happen to that country and our American soldiers when we retreat when and if and all you can say is blah blah blah wow you really truly do not care about our country or you have been in another world, Bush created it all and left the huge mess with Obama do not bother to respond because I will not. I know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so sad you conservative republicans cannot know the truth as well. No peace here this is ridicious. Catherine

[tammyleeb]

Oh my Catherine.....where did you get your information? We had a huge surplus when Bush took office??? Did I miss something? As for the war....I am not naive enough to think that Bush is the only reason we went to war. I am not a Bush supporter, but I can't understand how you could place the blame for everything that has happened on him. Our country was a mess a long time before Bush was ever elected. Its been a mess for a very very very long time. Obama made way too many huge promises to get elected, promises that too many people were eager to believe. I may not know a great deal about politics, but I do feel that this health care bill is NOT the answer to our health care problems. A few years from now, our Country will be in crisis (more so then now). I wish Obama was leading our country down the right path, but I fear that is not the case, and it honestly scares the hell out of me! We may have needed change in the White House, but this is not what I was praying for...

[momrajum]

No Catherine. What you "think" you know is not the truth the whole truth...blah, blah, blah. NONE of us know the whole truth. Unless of course you have some deep understanding that the rest of the country doesn't.....egads.

[lsualum]

Originally Posted by ILUVLUCY420

I know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so sad you conservative republicans cannot know the truth as well. No peace here this is ridicious. Catherine

Ohhh myyy goodness...that has got to be one of the funniest statements I have read at MC in all the years that I have been here. Are you kidding me?????? NOBODY knows the WHOLE truth...Democrats, Republicans, and everyone in-between.

I will give you credit though...your posts are always entertaining.

******just completely stunned by that comment about knowing the whole truth*********truly amazing****you must be God himself ????????

[ILUVLUCY420]

Well thanks for the compliments not, when I stated I know the whole truth and nothing but truth I should have really said what I personally believe in my whole state of being is that I firmly know what I know and feel what I feel and what I feel and believe to know the truth is that Bush made our country a mess a horrible horrible mess and will without a doubt in my personal view go down in history as the worse president ever. Okay I agree our country was not the best before he took office but again I liked Clinton very very much and thought he was a wonderful president until all his personal affairs got in the way, so then before that then we have the father George Bush he was okay honestly did not bother me as much as his son does. I do have the right to say I know the truth because I personally believe the truth is Bush made a mess of our country I am not God never said I was so where that comment came from I do not know. Just like members here who dislike Obama would you not say that you believe the truth is he is a terrible president ?? well would you, I bet you would no difference in what I wrote. Peace that our country gets back on her feet and bring our troops home safely. Catherine

[nightowlrn]

Posting to get this one post closer to being locked.

[nightowlrn]

Whoops, I did it again.

[Xhausted1]

Originally Posted by nightowlrn

Whoops, I did it again.

ok.. I laughed at this one.

It's unhealthy isn't it?

X

[nightowlrn]

Originally Posted by Xhausted1

ok.. I laughed at this one.

It's unhealthy isn't it?

X

Totally. (Now adding characters because I can't just write "totally" and please the posting Gods.)

[nightowlrn]

Oh look -- that last post made it 51 posts. Isn't there some rule about locking posts with 50 responses?