I'm pretty sure I'm going to be appointed the executor of my aunts estate in Texas. I"m in Iowa. I'm told my aunt was an "organized" hoarder-no trash or food, just stuff. I'm told there are pathways and the stuff is about 5' high. The good news is that it's all organized by category. She has tons of newspapers but they are all stacked in piles. Banking stuff is all in one place. So it will take awhile to go through but won't be as bad as it could be. My plans are to go down there, throw out anything that's not of value- newspapers (I don't think they are old enough to be of value but I will check it all out), get the stuff that will be donated to Goodwill (clothes, etc...) sorted, the stuff to be divided to the heirs, and the stuff that we will sell at a yard sale or consignment shop into piles or boxes. I plan to take tons of pictures as I go along too. What would be a reasonable fee to charge for my labor on this task? I'm not doing it for free, no one else has stepped up to the plate to help, etc... My mom is almost 86 and that's her last sibling. My aunt had no will and no kids so it will be divided between my mom and her deceased siblings kids. As the adminstrator I've been told my expenses to get there and stay in a hotel, etc... will be paid for from the estate but I'm wondering about the price for all the sorting work, etc....
I called our local consignment shop and they told me their fees to sort out someones house (which includes boxing all the stuff up for the store to consign) are $150.00 for the first hour and $50.00 for each subsequent hour. WOW! Iowa has a higher cost of living than Texas so I'm thinking $20.00/hr would be a fair price for my time and work. Does anyone know anything about this? I've spent at least 20 hours on the phone and emailing, etc... just to get things going. It's been a messy case-she was found deceased in her home, no autopsy (I called and asked for one but they refused to do it), etc...so my aunt isn't even buried yet, after almost two MONTHS, but hopefully she will be next week. She has been cremated. It's been a HUGE mess. As the executor can I bill the estate for all the time I've spent dealing with this so far? I have tons of emails and my long distance phone bills, etc... to prove my time. I've had to call detectives, the medical examiners office many times, the APS worker, the funeral home, the cemetery, etc... I just counted-I had 54 long distance calls in 4 weeks. It only cost me $7.00 because of my long distance phone plan but is all that time worth something? I do have an atty working on this but I'm not too happy with her so I thought I'd throw this out there and see if anyone has any answers! Thanks!

Well duh, I answered some of my own questions by googling Texas Probate Law but would still like to hear from anyone else who has experienced something like this. It's a mess.

You will be allowed to bill the Estate. As the executor, I believe you will get a certain percent of the Estate for handling all the affairs. Keep track of your time, and make sure to keep copies of all important papers. It sounds like you have a huge task ahead...

Very interesting that I recently went through the same thing (without the piles you describe) for my aunt, who was never married, never had children and lived in TX. Her 4 siblings inherited. While the duties are the same, you interchange the terms administrator and executor. The first is appointed by the court when there is no valid will - and the heirs must agree who that person will be. The second is if you were actually named in her will that the court deemed valid. Your post reads that you need to be appointed administrator.

Honestly, you need to consult with an attorney in TX for guidance. He/she will tell you how to navigate the court system, or do it for you. Once you are appointed, you can act. You will be given "letters of administration" by the TX court which along with the certified copies of death certificate, will allow you to act.

TX law has a specific formula for compensation - or - the heirs can just agree on a specific fee for your time. I kept track of everything simply to do everything right and there be no question, and it became cumbersome. In my case, I told the siblings I didn't want to be paid for my time, just my valid expenses. They came up with an amount and insisted I take it prior to closing the estate. Their agreement was in writing. I purchased a phone card and only used it when handling her affairs. A lot of this as far as your time, I chalked up to it being the right thing to do, she was after all, my aunt. I could have declined, but didn't because I knew I could follow through and her siblings had total confidence in me.

The $150 fee you talk about is for a business that has overhead, etc and is established. For you to physically sort, move, etc I think $20 is fair. I paid that amount to 2 family members who helped me sort and have the yard sale, as well as clean the house for resale. They were family members I KNEW would work and I preferred to pay them as to find someone I didn't know.

You have to publish a notice to creditors in the newpsaper. You have to prepare an inventory in a format acceptable to the court. Both are time based, seems like about 3 months after I was appointed.

The stuff in the home can be grouped together for resale value unless there are definite valuables like jewelry, coins, antiques. Automobiles, bank accounts, investments, etc are separate in the inventory. Once the home is empty, you will need to get a "vacant" insurance policy - expensive and not all agents carry this.

I am sure no autopsy was performed due to law. To summarize, as long as she was under a doctor's care, then the doctor signs the death certificate. Unlike drama unreality tv, autopsies are not as common as people are lead to believe. Further, it doesn't matter how long she was dead prior to someone finding her as long as there was no evidence of foul play and she had a doctor.

I have given you factual information from my experience. There is a lot do do, and many people do not realize that. Some of it is time based, and intensive. As long as you are organized and thorough, everything should be fine.

dl

Thanks! Things have changed overnight. Another cousin in Texas is going to be co-adminstrator. That will help.
As far as her death and how Texas has handled it I'm pretty disgusted.
1. Police were called to do a welfare check on her and they found her deceased. They contacted the sister of her deceased husband. No one knew how to get hold of my mom, her next of kin. I finally called down there when our Christmas cards got returned as undeliverable and that's how we all found out. I then found out her body had been transported to a town about 90 miles away where the sister-in-law lives. She had not been embalmed.
2. She had not been under a doctors care and had not seen a doctor in years. She (and her late husband) were very eccentric. I sent a letter to the medical examiners office requesting an autopsy stating all the reasons why and they refused to do one. Even at the families request.
3. The actual police report takes the cake. Listed as a "possible homicide". Door found pried open with a black bag containing a hammer, screwdriver and flashlight by the door. Anonymous call was made reporting a dead person. Police interviewed neighbor who saw a younger man (30's) pushing a lawn mower down her driveway about an hour before they arrived. I do believe my aunt died of natural causes but I don't understand why there wasn't further investigation into this. When I read that report it really freaked me out.
4. THis has been ongoing for two months now and my poor aunt hasn't even been buried yet. I can't believe how SLOWLY things proceed in Texas. There's no way this should be taking this long. She was cremated two weeks ago but I still haven't heard back about burial and I've talked to the funeral home several times since then.
5. I guess the APS had been involved with my aunt and her husband for over a year. The husband died about a year ago. The husbands sister told me that my aunt had dementia for several years. In Sept APS closed the case on my aunt because she was "uncooperative" and in October my aunt had her utilities turned off for lack of payment. The official cause of death is lack of self care due to dementia. (My mom talked to her every month or so and never noticed anything like that, neither did my cousin who talked to her every 4 months or so).
6. So it sounds like my poor aunt had some form of dementia, had an adult protective service worker working with her (and her husband) who decided she was fine but just didn't want to cooperate (duh, she had dementia), poor thing goes through the fall and into January with no heat or lights, ends up dead on the floor of her home, sounds like someone broke into her home, no one does a diligent search for any relatives (there would have been mail in her house with names and addresses, etc...), is kept "on ice" in a mortuary for several months and is still not even buried.
7. What is wrong with Texas???????

A co-administrator may make double work. If it's set up that you both have to sign, etc, then things are really being done twice and I think you will be even more frustrated, especially with the two of you in different states.. Me, I wouldn't have a co.

The police are overworked and can't find lnok (legal next of kin) in all cases, as fast as famlies think they should. Sometimes it becomes the Medical Examiner's responsibility. They typically go through mail to look for the same last name or and address book. Once they have found someone, they have done what they need to do. I think it lies with the sister-in-law not going further and notifying your mom.

The town 90 miles away is most likely where their holding facility is - remember TX is a big state distance-wise, so that doesn't surprise me. I think it's likely that she was there for most of the time, not at a funeral home, but would need further info to help you more with that. In other words, lnok should have said which funeral home of choice.

You, as a niece, have no bearing on an autopsy, cremation, etc. Your letter and calls had no merit. Those efforts should have come from your mom, or, if you have a POA for her, then you could have acted on her behalf. Her lnok is in this order, if surviving: spouse, adult child, parent, brother/sister and that's where it is. Your mom is her lnok. Additionally autopsies are done at county expense and have to meet specific criteria. As stated before, they are not done nearly as often as unreality tv has people thinking. Her lnok could always pay for a private autopsy. So this begs the questions, who signed the death certificate, and who authorized the cremation?

TX recognizes cremation as final disposition. So even though you are upset her cremated remains haven't been buried, her final disposition was accomplished. Burying, scattering, keeping the cremains is up to the lnok to accopmlish, not the funeral home. It's only on the funeral home if they have been contracted, on paper, to bury the cremated remains. Even then, the cemetery will require payment and possibly signature of lnok before they will bury. It's not necessarily TX but rather many other things combined causing your frustration.

I know nothing about the APS/system/criteria and thus won't comment on that aspect.

Also, in our drive-through, fax, email, atm society, people think everything works fast. It does not.

dl

I am acting on behalf of my mom because she is almost 86 and this is too much for her to handle. She signed the cremation papers and I faxed them to the funeral home. All agencies I have talked to know that I am acting on her behalf.
The sister-in-law didn't know my moms name or how to contact us. She knew we existed but that was it. Like I said my aunt was very eccentric, especially about anything personal. SIL lives 90 miles away and would not have had any access to her home to look at mail, etc... I'll be anxious to get down there and see how hard or easy it would have been to find us.
She was at the funeral home all this time. I know because I talked to them.
I have been directly involved in many deaths/funerals in Iowa. My dad the closest one. I've never, ever dealt with such a mess nor have I personally heard of anyone dealing with anything like this. My cousins 20something son was actually shot and killed on his job in Colorado and his folks live in Iowa and it sure wasn't like this....
I thought that most states require an autopsy when there was no doctor/medical care etc.. especially with the police report saying the door was messed with and burglary tools were left at the scene. Seems like that would be plenty to have an autopsy, especially after the family requests one.

You can't act on your mom's behalf all the way through, you need a POA. That is why SHE had to sign the cremation papers, as I said, she is lnok. You have already run into road blocks and will have more until you have a POA for her, or are appointed adminstrator by the court.

You just confirmed it. The sister-in-law caused the delay. That is the main part of the time problem, she didn't work on finding someone else in the family.

I have dealt with so many deaths I can't count them. Your father's.....you were close to him. Your cousin....he had an employer right there. Close contacts. Your aunt....."eccentric" by your admission.

Again, who signed the death certificate? I think it's a fair bet she was dead when (if) someone tried to break in, they saw her, pooed in their pants and ran. Have you considered that?

I explained before, the county agency is NOT going to perform an autopsy just because the family requests it, much less someone who is not lnok, much less someone who doesn't have a valid POA for the lnok. On the opposite side of the spectrum, had the county agency performed an autopsy, no amount of begging from the lnok could stop it. The county has a lawful duty and they cannot be swayed by "family". It is a black and white issue.

I have given you valid, useful information. My suggestion is that you move on from what you are dwelling on because you can't change the law, circumstances, or outcome just because you request things. Work forward to become a court appointed adminstrator and be able to legally handle her estate.

dl

Wow, you seem kind of angry.....
Yes, before I go there I will need a POA from my mom. I realize that.
Yes, we have chuckled many times over whoever the person was that broke into her home. We all laugh that that might change his career path! lol We also assume that person probably called the police.
From Harris County Forensics:
In most cases an autopsy is necessary. By Texas Law, (CCP Art. 49.25) the medical examiner is mandated to determine the cause and manner of death in all cases of accident, suicide, homicide, and undetermined death. In cases of natural death, when the person is NOT under a doctor’s care, or the person passes away in less than 24 hours after admission to a hospital, the medical examiner must be notified, as an autopsy may be required.

An autopsy certainly could have been performed. As I explained in the letter, when their only other sister died she was also found dead outside her back door out on her acreage. I wrote that with that information we are concerned about heart disease, etc... Did they both die of heart attacks? My fathers side has a lot of heart disease so it would be nice to have been able to autopsy one of these women.
I'm not out to change any laws, I'm just disgusted with dead ends in every turn, lack of communication, etc...
By the way, I don't know how you think the sil could have found us. She would not have had access to her home to look through her mail, etc... She's also elderly and lives about 90 miles away. So I'm not sure how you think she could find us. Someone with access to her house, police, etc... might have been able to find us. When I go down there I will see if there is anything laying around that could have easily found us.
It's all water under the bridge BUT I don't think things were handled very well at all. Maybe that's how they do things in Texas but it's NOT how they do things in Iowa. I even talked to our Med Examiners here because I work for the county and their offices are in our building before I requested the autopsy.
I'm not as ignorant on this matters as you seem to think.
My my father died back in 1972 (I was a teenager) he was mowing the lawn and dropped dead of a massive heart attack. He regularly had doctor check ups. They did ask my mom if she wanted an autopsy but the doctor said it probably wasn't necessary because it looked like a massive coronary so we didn't have one. He was regularly seen by a physician (at least once a year for a physical) yet they still wanted to know if we wanted one. That was almost 38 years ago.

I am not angry, omg. If you think that, then it's fair for me to say you don't get it. I am not here to waste my time addressing what you post. It was you, after all, who asked for help. I have given you factual information (some of it several times) and addressed the items I have many years of experience dealing with. You keep repeating what you want and what you think should have happened.

It's not a POW, it's a POA, power of attorney. To be clear as well, that document will not allow you to continue with the estate, as I typed in my first response, you (someone) needs to be court appointed as an administrator. That is the direction you should ble moving in.

Your quote has verified what I have told you. Read the word "most" followed by requirements - it doesn't say all. "Most" relates to Medical Examiner cases, not all deaths. There are ME cases that are not autopsied, but for the 3rd time, unreality tv has people thinking differently. Just because the ME is involved, doesn't automatically mean there will be an autopsy.

As I said, the medical examiner is responsible by law, and it further says "may" about an autopsy. Nothing is there about a non lnok or family "wish". No medical examiner's office is going to do an autopsy simply because someone wants family history. I think they laughed upon reading your letter, and didn't even have to respond. They were being very nice and trying to help you as well. They could not have performed an autopsy, as you say "certainly" when her death did not fit the criteria.

The certainly part is, as I wrote earlier, that the family (with lnok signing) could have paid for a private autopsy. That is what stops people - once they realize it's THEIR money, they aren't so fast to be so concerned. Generally speaking, a private autopsy will cost somewhere around $3000 and has to be done by a pathologist.

I don't know the specifics of the sister-in-law, I am simply trying to tell you that LE found nok and that's where officials typically stop. You had talked about the time situation and I tried to give you a possibility/reason, that isn't all on TX as you want to blame everything not happening the way you think it should have.

I am glad you talked to your local ME (or is it a coroner?) and they made you feel good. I don't think you are ignorant. I do think you are dwelling on things you don't understand and can't get your way, and I've tried to help reasonably. I think, no....I know that there is no way had her death happened in IA that the county would have performed an autopsy not meeting their criteria, based on a request from a non lnok, with the reasons you asserted. All ME's and Coroner's offices operate under tax payer funds and have specific criteria to meet.

You just stated your dad was under regular doctor's care. The offer of an autopsy would have been at family expense. You might not have known it at the time or remember that now, that it would have been at family expense, but mowing the yard doesn't qualify for a county autopsy either.

I want to go back and address the police report "possible homicide" in that, and yes, while iI've given you factual information in all other areas, this one I am going to guess on. I think that's typical for law enforcement having seen a hammer, etc at the door in their initial assessment. However, the officer would have visually checked your aunt's body at the house for physical trauma and noted accordingly. Also LE would have advised the ME further of their findings and THAT could have / would have prompted an autopsy.

I am willing to help again with your concerns. People have no idea how or why things happen after a death because it's not a situation they have dealt with. Even if they have, it can be very different based upon the specifics - as you are finding out with your aunt. No one wants to talk about death and then when it happens the emotional toll can be overwhelming and get in the way of what has to be done and why, or what isn't done, and why. Folks would do well to educate themselves along life's path just a bit to be better prepared.

dl

If your aunt was "dead, been dead"---and it was obvious that it was from natural causes, there is no need (from a legal standpoint) for an autopsy.
While I am sorry that your Aunt apparently fell through the cracks and possibly died as a result of that----if she was known eccentric, it's not the state's responsibility to take care of her. The family had a responsibility too. If you (the family) couldn't tell she was a danger to herself, then why do you expect a state worker to be able to make that determination when working with an uncooperative person? There's a fine line between uncooperative and eccecntric and crazy.....

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I'm currently in the middle of this so I'm still a bit "raw" I guess you could say. Personally, I think it's tacky to want anything more than actual expenses. I understand all too well how time consuming it is, but, she was your Aunt, and your mother's sister, so IOW, FAMILY. Just my thoughts on it.

As for YOU deciding what is "valuable" I don't believe that is your job as executor. If it were up to the executor in my situation, the entire contents of the house would go in a dumpster.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Of course I think highly of family which is why I stepped up to the plate with this when no one else would.
I have to take time off work to go down there. I have two jobs and one has no vacation time. She's a "clean" hoarder and no other family member wants to tackle the job-and job it WILL be from what I hear. I didn't even know if people get paid for doing this but I know my sister and the only other cousin that has really shown interest are all for it. Also, if no one would do it they would have to hire someone to go in and do it and I'm sure they would charge a fortune because it really is a mess.
And again, as far as valuables go, my cousin agrees with my plan. I know everything gets inventoried. I'm a long time reseller so I pretty much know what's what and would NOT throw anything out unless it was truly trashy and I have permission (ie lawyer advice). For example, she has 5 ft high piles of newspapers. I think I can safely recycle those unless of course they are from the 60's or something and they would be valuable. We plan to go through every single thing-shake the newspapers in case she hid money in them, etc...
I only made this post for suggestions, etc...I will follow the letter of the law. I was just wondering about other peoples experiences.

I understand all of that. However, I question them not trying to appoint a guardian on her behalf. If they had direct contact for over a year, knew she wasn't taking care of herself, paying her bills, etc... it seems to me that's when you really try to find family, etc.... As I said, when I get down there, I will see how easy it would have been to find us-maybe it wouldn't be but if it was that would not rest well with me. They (APS worker and sil) knew there was a sister in Iowa.
In defense of my mom (and cousin in Wisc.) neither one of them noticed any difference in her behavior via the phone. They were both in complete disbelief when they heard the cause of death. My mom still can't understand it. She never noticed anything different on the phone.
I have only seen my aunt a few times in my life. We never traveled when I was growing up except for one trip to Texas when I was 6 and I saw her then. My aunt came up here once to visit. We (my mom, me, my sister) always sent cards for holidays, postcards on trips, etc.. and kept in touch via snail mail. We always sent her a big Christmas package. I don't travel much so this is a big deal to get down there. My mom went to Texas via bus twice in the 1980's to see her mom before she died. So, we were not able to pick up any behavior cues since we weren't there in person, The 13 welfare calls from the SIL to the police in a years time combined with her eccentric behavior and inability to keep her finances straight sure seems like a lot of signals for help. Actually one of the police reports I have states-lady has dementia with no one to care for her. I would have thought that, combined with the APS worker, would have been enough to get a court apptd guardian. I have dealt (jobwise) with mental health commitments in Iowa so I do know a bit about that.

Found this in Texas law:
What are the definitions of "minor" and "incapacitated person?"
An adult who, because of physical or mental condition, is substantially unable to provide food, clothing or shelter for himself or herself, to care for his or her own physical health, or to manage his or her own financial affairs is considered an incapacitated person. The definition of incapacitated person also includes a person who must have a guardian appointed to receive funds due the person from any governmental source.

I think that since she couldn't pay her bills, had police reports stating dementia with no one to care for her, she would have qualified for this. I realize hindsight is one thing but they were there seeing things in person, we weren't and had no idea this was going on. Since they closed her case in Sept and her heat was turned off in October it would seem to me that there would have been several months of non payment and notices sent warning that her utilities were going to be shut off. I know the APS worker, at least at one point, did go through her mail with her as she told me over the phone. I also realize there is a very fine line between eccentric, mentally ill, etc... But it sure seems like there were tons of signs pointing to a bad outcome if something wasn't done.

I know my cousin or myself would have gone down there if we had any idea this was a bad situation. As I stated earlier my mom and cousin did not notice any significant changes in her via phone calls.

Mowing the lawn qualifying for an autopsy????? The point is that it was an extremely sudden death which sometimes warrants an autopsy. I'll have to ask my mom if she remembers being told an autopsy would be at our expense.

We talk about death all the time! While growing up I lost someone significant every two years since I was 6 years old so a funeral is about as common to us as a wedding is to another family. So dealing with death is not something uncommon for me at all. And almost all of these deaths I have dealt with have been sudden. I'm as prepared as a person can possibly be for hearing this type of news. In fact, I've dealt with so much death at such an early age that I never, ever had that typical teenage "it can't happen to me" attitude. I grew up looking at things as "if it can happen, it can certainly happen to me". Not the most fun attitude to have but it was a realistic one for me.

I can't remember word for word but the ME people here told me but I felt very comfortable with what they said. I trust them, at least for knowing Iowa law.

Actually the phone call to the police said there was a possible homicide at her address. That's why it's on the report-it was called in that way. None of us think there was foul play but all the things adding up make for a ton of "cracks" in the system. The APS worker even told me over the phone that the police were aware of their plight and would drive by occassionally to see if things looked ok. This was obviously a person who needed looked after.
Oh, and another thing. When I contacted the APS worker she said she didn't know she had dementia yet it was on the police reports (welfare calls) which said they were being copied to the APS worker. Did she really have dementia? Is the APS worker acting ignorant to cover the agency? You can't have police reports detailing dementia sent to an agency (they had the APS workers name on a few of them) and the agency working with them not know anything about it (dementia). Which brings up these questions-did she have dementia or not??? That was another reason I detailed in my letter requesting an autopsy. I did ask the me or coroner-the doctor I was told to contact who signed the death certificate-if he would be comfortable testifying in court that she had dementia which caused her death. He said yes he would. So if this is the case-her dementia was bad enough to cause her death due to lack of self care-why wouldn't a trained adult protective service worker pick up on this? The APS office was involved with them for well over a year. The police had 13 welfare checks with reports being sent to the APS worker. Just too many unanswered questions for me.
I have thought this through very carefully and made tons of calls trying to piece this all together. So deddlastt, I've thought of most of the things you have brought up. This case just has so many twists and turns in it that I can't possibly write all the things that I have thought of, many of which you have brought up. I also understand that the ME/Coroner whoever it was had enough info at the scene to make his assessment. It's just all the questions as to whether she really had dementia, etc... that came up afterwards that made me write the request to the ME. The police reports, the APS worker acting like dementia never crossed her mind, etc... I'm from the school of thought that if you don't know something or question something you ASK questions. So that's what I was doing with the medical examiner-filling him in on the confusion and asking for an autopsy.
And it was just a typo when I typed POW instead of POA. I know I don't need a 'prisoner of war'! lol I would have thought you might realize it was just a typo! lol