Okay I dearly know I have discussed this issue many times, but honestly this has got to be the last straw, Michelle will be 44 and this last baby she almost died from severe high blood pressure. Then her tiny tiny poor baby who was born like almost 4 months premature at 1lb and 6 ounces and was in the hospital for months and I am sure suffered to survive to get to where she is now. I cannot believe how shelfish they are, you may tell me its not my business and your correct it is not. However I can and do have a personal view be blessed God gave you 19 children, start enjoying your grandchildren to come. Worry about your health Michelle god forbid anything happened to leave all those children without a mom and finally JimBob you wife did enough its time for you to get yourself fixed and I mean that wholeheartly. I just read all this in people magazine and all from their websites. So again feel free to give your personal views and lets try to keep peace.. Catherine

I know I will get flamed for this but I also believe 19 is more than anybody needs. I came from a family of 4 and my parents never had time for 1 on 1 time with us, how do they ever have the time to get to know each child? It isn't our place to judge and I know they are against birth control but really? How can they honestly believe that this last one was not a warning? I don't think her body could take another pregnancy. I don't know how her uterus has lasted this long. If they feel they have more love to offer then maybe they will adopt.

At this point I am convinced that it is for the media attention. Being a medical provider, I can tell you that this is NOT healthy. I have no pity at all for what happens to them in the long run... Like another thread is titled, "You cant help stupidity."

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Be careful what you wish for.....

Dannic I agree with you like so many have said when it comes down to it, it truly is not our business, but we all can have a personal view on the topic, especially after all baby Josie Brooklyn went through 5 months of being in the nicu and Michelle was literally moments away from dying because her blood pressure was dangerously high . Again for anyone who wanted children and for them who were blessed with 19 please be thankful and stop and also while I know the older daughters had to step in an raise those kids while Michelle was able to live around the clock in the hospital if not for her elder kids she would never ever have been able to do that. I honestly cannot believe they feel they have 20 more years to keep having children I am totally shocked. Only time will tell . Peace. Catherine

They are ridiculous. They are having the children but the older children are raising them. I don't see how anyone in that house can have a moment of privacy or sanity.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I agree.

I think they are making a mockery of parenthood.

I don't know about a mockery. But, at this point, Ol' Billy Bob can no doubt pull out her uterus, squirt a bit in, and then replace it without actually having to touch the poor wife in order to get another little clan member. And, I now know why they make the girls wear dresses. It's to get them ready for their uterus flopping around between their knees after kid # 10.

I wish them all well. They sure make cute kids. But, I am pretty sure a "tell all" book will be published before 2020.

My heart goes out to the women and children of this family. They are subjugated by the men in their lives - fathers, husbands, sons - in the name of God. Imagine the inner strength it would take a female to rise above that. At least in the US - men don't throw acid in their faces - not yet anyway ...

Nightowlrn I agree with you about what you said about the wife and husband relationship. In Michelle and JimBobs marriage to me personally the husband is the boss, I for one love my husband dearly, but we are equal its all about 50/50. Like I said with all the times Michelle has been pregnant and all those labor and delivery pains and afterbirth and breastfeeding I could never imagine, however I always am reminded of the espisode where they were shopping for baby Jordan number 18 and there is Michelle with a big belly walking around and JimBob said he was tired and sat in one of the baby gliders , Then there was the time they all decided to donate blood and he was so scared. Imagine if he had to experience 19 births. As anyone else every viewed the Bates family they are very close with the Duggars and Kelly looks the same way at her husband. Not for me. Peace. Catherine

Wow - judge not is all I can say!

I do think it is silly and nitpicky to bring up incidents such as the one you describe when they were shopping for baby items and presume that snapshot is a representation of anything bigger. My memory of being extremely far along in pregnancies includes days where I had crazy amounts of energy and motivation. My husband, on the other hand, wasn't running around on a progesterone high and fell asleep at the drop of the hat. Life was busy and chasing any kids we already had certainly left him weary.

Having so many kids isn't for me, but I have a hard time being critical of them. I think one on one time can be highly overrated. I get lots of it with my own kids, and am very thankful that I do, but I'd rate things like character development far above feeling 'special'. And helping out with younger siblings certainly doesn't hurt anyone. In fact, I'd wager that those kids are far better prepared to be adults than my own.

They're well-fed, safe, and secure.

If I'm going to run around looking for some parents to criticize, I think I'd choose idiots who are on drugs, who spend all their time at work and leave the kids at the sitter for the vast majority of their waking hours, who can't shut their traps at ballgames, and who turn a blind eye to alcohol use and promiscuity. Families like that do a much greater disservice to our nation and are ultimately a greater burden on society.

The older Michelle gets, the more a chance of complication for both her and the baby. I think that's a risk that I would be unwilling to take.

But, it's her life. And if she wants to pop out kids until she can't do it anymore--and isn't expecting a govt. handout, then, well, why is it a concern to me??

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Sorry to wowitsdark I do not agree with you, in my personal views enough is enough even with being well fed , I worry more about the complications of more pregnancies and the health and well being of mother and child. Also again if it were not for her elder children she Michelle could not have been allowed to spend her life at the hospital for the last 5 months. So if the say that they have 20 more years to have children, do you wowitsdark think that would be fair to have children for 20 more years please answer that question. To Marilyn your right in the end it does not personally effect me however I have my beliefs and my views and I want to share them. Peace. Catherine

Cathrine, life is never perfect.

You do the best you can.

I don't think you understand that there is room for God in every equation.

I don't think God mandates that people have unlimited amounts of children. I can see why THEY think so because I've read literature that comes to that conclusion. There are legitimate differences of opinion when one is called to analyze text and make conclusions about meaning. It happens with our constitution all the time. Two well-meaning, solid people can walk away with a totally different picture of what the framers intended, and the Duggars firmly believe that the Bible points to God's intention for people not to inhibit the reproductive process. If they think that God mandates that then who are they to flip their nose in the air and NOT do it? They have always said that they understand how others can come to different conclusions about the same issue... but that they have to follow their conscience, and I respect that. My conclusion is much different, but I appreciate their faithfulness. The Bible clearly states that if someone believes he is supposed to do something a certain way and fails to do so then for him it is sin, so for them it would be sin not to do what they are doing.

And the overarching issue, IMHO, is that God knows they are doing their best, and I believe he can and has blessed them due to their having acted in faith. I don't think that they have been blessed because they had so many kids. I think that because they lived out their faith they were blessed and that God has watched over them.

You have spoken many times about your brother who died of AIDS and defended his life choices even though there is an inherent risk in homosexual behavior, especially in the male community. He acquired it. Did he also unwittingly spread it? Did you think that people should work to eliminate that risk so he could live out his belief? Were you ever as angry about the risks he took as you seem to be at the Duggars?

Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. My kids have had genetic issues that required corrective surgeries. I suppose you might think I should not have had them because they weren't perfect physiologically? If so, I would disagree wholeheartedly. They are healthy, happy, and smart. It's all worked out.

Even young healthy women have babies who start out with problems, from mental retardation to heart problems to too many toes.

To wowitsdark wow where do I begin, you spoke alot about the Duggars and their religion, where I clearly know is a big factor in all their decisions and how they live their lives, they clearly do live their lives 100 percent according to the bible and if they do something wrong it would be looked upon as a sin. For me personally while I am a catholic and believe in many ways or teachings as a catholic I do not follow the book exactly as it should be but again my view. I guess my real issues with the Duggars are where does it end and at what cost, does anyone think if Michelle god forbid died with this last pregnancy those children would be left without a mom. All and all I do agree it does not personally affect me however I do not agree with their way of life and I am sure they would not mine either I do not feel those children receive enough attention and could never imagine how one single mom and dad could do it. Now to my brother because of his personal choice of lifestyle meaning he was gay, I never ever believed it was his choice I personally feel he was born that way. Was I sad when I found out yes but only for the reasons of ridicule by people who are not open minded and still today do not accept the gay community.True saddness was the day he found out he was HIV positive , did I worry about the risks 10000th percent but the damage was done, could he had make better choices most certaintely but it will not bring my brother back. So for me the Duggars came make choices once my brother aquired the disease it was too late, it is not too late for the Duggars to decide not to have anymore children. I guess in the end we have to agree to disagree I sincerely appreciate your comments. Peace. Catherine

"In fact, I'd wager that those kids are far better prepared to be adults than my own.

They're well-fed, safe, and secure."
Those kids, the women especially, are not prepared to be adults. They are prepared to be caretakers to a man and younger children. They see their parents having children to be raised and cared for by the older siblings. The Duggar children have no clue what it is like to be a parent to a child.... they know what it is like to be a sibling caretaker to a younger child. They have no idea what it is like for a mom and dad to get up and go to work outside of the home and have that responsibility. They have no idea what it is like as an adult to have to pay bills and live pay check to paycheck... Dont feed into this **** that they are more prepared then most adults.

And I understand that they do not practice birth control all in the name of religion. However I think it is pretty ****ty that he would put his wifes health at risk because he refuses to wear a rubber. WOW!! What a thing to teach his children.

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Be careful what you wish for.....

Every man who impregnates a woman puts her health at risk.

Every pregnancy to every woman carries with it certain risks.

The fact that 95% of her pregnancies have been uneventful is pretty impressive. The one that was eventful wasn't compromised because of the reasons people tend to cite for being reasons they should stop.

Seriously - what does it take to be an adult? What things trip MOST adults up and give them the most problems in their lives?

Money management skills... and they have those. They've taught their kids how to shop on a budget.

Drug and alcohol addictions... and the Duggar kids have been taught to abstain from both of those.

Absentee parents... their religious beliefs about sex make it highly unlikely that any of their kids will end up in fatherless, financially-barren homes.

Government reliance - they don't believe in it. It can be argued that they are paying their way through life via the Discovery Channel, and no doubt they are. But if it wasn't for that 'job' I have to think that they'd have another way to support their family.

Regarding your statement, "They have no idea what it is like as an adult to have to pay bills and live pay check to paycheck"... seriously, is that the best you can do? How many kids CAN? The ones that are under the age of 18 are still considered children in their parent's house. They've 'apprenticed' by helping repair and paint rental properties the family owns. They did much of the building of their own house. Not all of it... but they sure got more hands-on real world experience than the guy tearing into the local high school in the Beamer daddy bought him.

Their way is not for me... but your arguments against them really don't hold water.

yeah it's discussed every year sometimes more than once, enough with the beating the dead horse already

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Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

hmmmm....that could mean so many things!! LOL

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

It's all Bush's fault.

dl

If they are, it's because they never had a childhood. And that's a real shame.

I said if before, and I'll say it again: it's like this woman has a death wish. When I had Steven, 12 years ago, my doctor came into the room and said 'you can't have anymore children. Well, you can but you are putting yourself at risk. And having your young children cry at night knowing their mom is never coming back, it's heartbreaking.'

That was all the message I needed: my husband within 2 weeks had a vasectomy, and a little over a year later, I had a hysterectomy.

I think living in the hoopla that is the reality show, being pregnant, giving birth, can somehow turn into someone's 'comfort zone.' I'm afraid when it comes down to her child bearing years being completely over, she'll fall into a depression. Her husband might as well.

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Catt
~ Mirror Mirror on the wall, I am my mother - after all! ~

and if it isn't Bush's fault, I'm sure it's Clinton's fault.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

See... I don't think that at all. I think their perspective is that they have a responsibility to take that aspect of life as it comes. If it comes with more children, that's what God intended, and if it doesn't, he didn't. I have no clue if they will breathe a sigh of relief or feel blue when the baby bounty comes to an end, but their motives seem entirely sincere.

I give the insincerity award to Kate, Mom of 8. Actually, I have no clue where she is emotionally right now, but during that show she went from seemingly down to earth to freakazoidally addicted to the perks of the spotlight. I don't see the Duggars having changed their lifestyle or personalities. I think they are what they are.

I know way too many people who are like them (sans the 98 children!) who do things many of us would consider extreme in the name of their faith. From cutting all animal products from their lives because of a personal conviction about that issue to only eating organic everything to having NO children because of convictions that the world is already too populated, when people are doing something out of a conviction it can absolutely change how things play out.

Have they said that her doctor has recommended that she not have more children? I know there are general recommendations that people over a certain age be aware of increased risks... but at the same time, they do invitro for women in that older age range frequently, so it's not an across-the-board edict that 40+ shouldn't have kids.

Again - I feel the need to emphasize that I don't share her interpretation of what the Bible says about childbearing, I'm just not as hateful towards them as others are.

An interesting perspective..........and I think it might be totally valid.

And that is how I feel about the Duggar children, not being able to truly be children, Yes I know there are times it seems they are doing some fun things, but they are also helping their parents raise their younger brothers and sisters and there is no way michelle and jimbob could do it withouth their help. Here are my two very valid points againist them, does not one of those children want to go to college and become something else then just being a lady who gives birth to so many children, does any of those children have any dreams of their own. Also again the health and well being of Michelle and any more babies this time she was lucky she did not die and nor did her baby, enough is enough at least for me. I do not think it is fair to give having so many children and risk anyones life. Peace. Catherine

wowitsdark made very relevant points in regard to your continued disagreement with the Duggar family's behavior and your continued defense of your brother's. You passed off each of her points and yet continue to again and again criticize the Duggars. (for the record, I don't care how many children they have)

None of us can make decisions for anyone else and you are unwilling to see the definite parallels. This is a great example of nimby. Not in my back yard. It's ok because it was so close to home, your family member. And yet you continue on about the Duggars. Being fair and taking risks goes in all walks of life.

dl

What I want to know is why you are so obsessed with the choices these people are making?? Good grief..........children are born everyday to crack heads and prostitutes who could give a crap about them. They live without love or getting their daily needs met. AND they live without hope. What kind of childhood do those children have to look forward to??? There are millions of children who would LOVE to live in a home as full of love and compassion as the Duggar home. I for one, wish there were more people like them.

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Melissa

I guess my concern is her health, and the health of her unborn/newborn child.

Much like I am concerned for the health of the babies of drug addicts and prostitutes...

Large families don't phase me. My mom has 13 siblings! (more along the lines of His, Hers and Theirs--instead of all from the same mother).

While I think think that they started out having children based on their religious beliefs, I question if that's why they are doing it now...

No, it doesn't matter so much. And it certainly doesn't keep me up nights---Most days I don't think about the Duggars!
From a personal viewpoint--I don't care if they have more. I just wonder what is really driving them. I wonder if they would go ahead and get pregnant if their Ob/Gyn advised against it? I'm a firm believer in God works in mysterious ways, but I also God gave us free will to make some choices independently--especially when it comes to health issues.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Cathrine, I ask this sincerely.

Why would you not follow the book exactly as it should be?

If you believe that God is God, think about the implications of that belief.

The Bible clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth and everything that's here. The people, the plants, the animals, the oceans, the sky... everything.

If you believe that as you say you do - that he is, as it says, the "I Am" - that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God, he was with him in the beginning" - then he (God) is more indisputable than any legal national authority, any political leader, any dominant personality in your family...He Is the I Am.

So what he says "IS".

It's not something that is up for debate if you say that you believe he is who he claims to be in the Bible.

You can debate about the meaning of various things in the Bible, and sincere people will come to different conclusions about various issues.

But what you said is that, "For me personally ... I do not follow the book exactly as it should be..."

And regarding the Duggars, you said, "they clearly do live their lives 100 percent according to the bible"

I guess what I don't understand is why you would criticize them. From these statements, it sounds like they are doing something you acknowledge is the way God wants them to do it, but that you *personally* are critical of.

If you think *God* is okay with what they are doing, then do you not think that God will watch over them and that the dominoes will fall in the way that He sees is best for them? They are acting in *faith*, and the Bible is pretty clear that when people are acting out of sincere faith and not selfish motives that blessings will follow.

Do you not take God at his word?

The Bible is clear that the LORD says that the one thing he cannot do is lie.

For those who are not believers none of this is of any relevance, but I am asking you, Cathrine, because you do profess faith, and yet for whatever reason you choose to pick at this family who is living their life according to their faith while never seeming to have crackhead parents or child molesters on your radar enough to run here to criticize *them*.

In my world, people who share a belief in the Lord are to respect one another's actions that are done in faith unless there is an out and out unquestionable misrepresentation (such as murder in God's name, etc.).

In my world, the battle is against evil and it is wrong to say such hurtful things directed towards people for a belief they hold that is rooted in their desire to follow God's plan.

So which is it? Is he God or is he not? And if he *is*, why be critical of those who apparently care more about following his words than you do based on your own statements?

For deddlastt why would I ever think you would ever come back and say something nice to me, beating a dead horse there for sure. Can I not have my views on the subject?? why does it bother you so much that the way the Duggars live their lives bother you so much????. To wowitsdark while I have told you I am a Catholic and raised a Catholic I do not and will not follow the bible word for word, because of my liberal views I do not agree with all that is written in the bible and while there many be so many people who follow the bible word for word then , that is fine its their choice, I choose not to. I am certaintely not losing any sleep over the Duggars choices because they will do as they please, I will stand firm in my beliefs enough is enough and to even think that they say they have another 20 years to have more children is not Normal at all. I do not want to argue but why can I not have my view on the subject honestly I feel sorry for those children. Peace. Catherine

In other words, you do not believe that God is God, but rather that liberalism is your God?

I'm really just trying to get a handle on what you are trying to say.

As an analogy...

Are you familiar with Hayden's Surprise Symphony? It's a song that has a lot of 'surprises' - it will be very quiet and suddenly the entire orchestra will blast out a note and people who were snoozing and falling out of their seats jump in surprise.

The volume of the song is critical, from beginning to end. Hayden wrote it with very specific instructions that it was to be played a certain way because it was *his* song and he wanted *his* song to be used to create a specific reaction.

Would it fly for a music major to utilize that song in some performance and totally screw up the 'surprises' by having it all just be a quiet, non-varied snoozer of a song? Would a good or a bad grade be given if one were being evaluated on the understanding of and performance of the music if one demonstrated a complete disregard for the instructions of the composer?

ETA: For me, my faith trumps my politics every time. Politicians and what behaviors society finds acceptable will change, but God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I hold the politics I hold based on my faith, rather than choosing my faith based on my politics.

To wowitsdark hon honestly I think you reading way too much into this so lets try it again. I was born and raised a Catholic, I was baptized received my communion and confirmation and was married in a catholic church. My children received as well not married yet. Okay because I am a left winged liberal there are certain beliefs I live by that the Catholic church does not agree with. For example same sex marriage, abortions, having sex before marriage , living together before marriage. I could go further but I assume you get the picture. While I am againist Abortion I am would consider the choice for abortion if the moms health was in danger and or if the unborn child was going to die be born with severe deformaties or severe health issues and in the case of rape. As far as same sex marriage and the other issues I am all for it. I believe in God and I believe in heaven and hell I believe Jesus was born and died for our sins to be forgiven. However I just do not follow the bible word for word. I believe God created us all and that is why I do not understand how people are againist Gay people or people who are racist. For me wowitsdark again the Duggars can do anything they please, they totally believe and follow the bible . However with this last pregnancy and with Michelle almost dying and her baby being born so premature my heart broke for that baby to struggle to survive I cannot imagine as a parent living through that. So for me personally I feel they should be blessed and raise the children God gave them, Michelle almost died, when does someone say enough is enough. Look we could go back and forth but I guess we will have to end and agree to disagree and move on okay. Peace. Catherine

Do you believe that the Bible is inspired by God - that it reveals his will for mankind?

No. I believe what I feel and go with my own personal views on life. Again I believe in God but I do not follow the bible word for word. Peace. Catherine

Then by definition, you don't believe in God.

Cathrine is your god.

I didin't say anything "not nice". YOU are the person constantly beating the proverbial dead horse not only on this subject, but several others as well. Worse, you constantly say how you are done, and yet back you come. I didn't say you can't have your views. And you didn't read/comprehend where I even put it in parenthesis ( ) about my non issue with their choices !

Just because I, or anyone else differs on the subject matter from what you rule as IT, doesn't mean we are not being nice. wow has it right, you are your own God, yet hide behind twisting the bible around to suit yourself when convenient.

dl

I think that's a good way to put it.

The Bible isn't a book you get to believe 'part of'. Either you believe it's truth, or you reject it.

If you believe that God is who he says he is, and that he can't lie, then the whole thing must be believed.

You can't believe some of it but not all of it.

And if you believe all of it but consciously choose not to abide by it, well... that doesn't fly.

Exactly. I could be wrong -- but I don't think Catholics (or any other denomination for that matter) are given the option to pick and choose what tenets of their religion that they "like and will adhere to" and what they "don't like and will consciously violate".

Being human and making mistakes that go against your chosen religion is VERY different from deliberately doing things that go against your chosen religion.

I agree.

I think it's one thing to read some text in the Bible and say, "I think it means..." and to then, in faith, follow follow that conclusion as you live your life.

It's quite another to say, "Well, I believe it says such-and-such, but I don't care because my own reasoning says this other point of view is superior."

At the very heart of a faith system in a deity is that you embrace that the deity is the final authority and that your human perceptions may or may not be truth depending on whether or not they are in agreement with the deity.

We're not talking about putting your trust in the statements of a human - of a politician you tend to agree with, a family member to whom you are loyal, etc. Declaring that you have faith that God Is, that he really did create the earth, that he set the 'game' in motion, and that he sets the rules and our duty is to try to figure them out and live by them means that you check your personal perspectives with His perspectives as a means to determine whether you are right or wrong.

You don't *get* the option of deciding *you* are right and then saying, "Guess the Bible got that one wrong!" If you do that, then *YOU* are the "god" and the Bible is just a supporting document you can pull out when you need some back-up you think people will find credible when they don't find *you* credible.

When you believe someone is blaspheming God's intention then certainly you have a duty to contradict it and do so with some gusto. But be prepared to back it up with something more than just "I think..." or "I feel like...". People are fond of reaching back many centuries and bringing up the Crusades as evidence that Christianity is just as bad as pick-your-set-of-bad-people. IMHO, true Christians can refute that by pulling out God's actual *Word* and laying blame on those people for taking his name in vain by wearing his name and doing things he specifically forbids, much like kids who disobey their parents values but claim to their aghast siblings, "It's what mom would have wanted!"

I feel good about my decision to follow Christ. Some can say it's a blind faith and throwing away the ability to think for myself. I wholeheartedly disagree. He's a benevolent God but he does hold all the keys, and if I truly believe he exists, I'd be stupid *not* to try to figure out what he wants. Part of holding faith in the God of the Bible is believing that our pitstop here on Earth is a blink of an eye, and so whether I 'get my way' all the time is really not that important to me. What's important to me is whether or not what I am doing is aligned with what he intends for me to be doing. It's really pretty simple.

Wowitsdark who are to decide for me and tell me that I do not believe in God, I do believe in God, I think its time for you to leave me alone on this subject and give it a rest the same goes to Deddlastt and Kellyjef. No peace here. Catherine

Marilyn, I should have been clear as to whom I was directing my post. I was actually speaking to Catherine, she's the one who started the thread.

Sorry. ;0)

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Melissa

You can eat pasta and hot rolls for lunch and supper alongside your steak and eggs and say you're on board with Atkins - just not all of it.

But will you lose weight?

Would Atkins claim you?

oh, I was aware who it was directed at. thus I didn't take offense.

I think that sometimes people stray from being devout and faithful to their beliefs into being zealots/fanatics/extremist....I wonder if that's where the Duggars are or are headed. Just wondering what their motivation is NOW vs. What their motivation was before? KWIM
Frankly, though, it's really none of my busines--it truly is between them and their God.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Thanks Marilyn for your words and that is what I believe, I believe in some but not all, I cannot and will not live my life word for word, but why it is bothering wowitsdark so much I assume and only assume she lives her life according to her religion word for word. For me or her or anyone else in my personal belief that does not make them any lesser of a personal who believes in a certain religion or does not believe in God and heaven and hell which I believe in all. Now can we move it along hopefully. Peace. Catherine

I think this post is why many have strayed from this site....too much info!!!

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-Kristi

I guess I'm confused.

I don't see what Marilyn's post has to do with anything other than her curiosity about whether their motivation has morphed.

You started this thread and called the Duggars crustaceans.

I said if they believe a higher authority demands this of them, then they would be foolish to do anything *but* what their conscience tells them they need to do.

You essentially said (and forgive me if I am paraphrasing you incorrectly) that they need to just ditch their faith and quit having kids and only adhere to the tenets of their belief system that left-winged people do because the risks of pregnancy problems have increased due to her age. You've essentially said that faith should go by the wayside and not be your faith anymore if your human reasoning tells you something else is more reasonable.

From I Corinthians: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

You asked who I am to say anything about your belief or lack of it.

I'm a believer. I just... am. And believers are told to keep each other on their toes, and if they see someone misrepresenting Christ that it's important to correct that misrepresentation.

You have essentially said that God won't care if you don't obey him. I think that is false, and I couldn't just act like I thought it was no big deal. It's too important to me. If you didn't profess to be a believer in God I wouldn't feel compelled to say anything, but because you say you *do* believe, you're supposed to care about what God wants, not just want you want.

Exactly! I don't question that initially they were doing it for their beliefs---now, I'm not so sure.

Personally? I'm not sure that the Bible is the "be all, end all" of what God had to or has to say. I think that their have been far too many human hands "writing" and deciphering what was originally written....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Discussions of following the bible to the letter always reminds me of this open letter to "Dr." Laura that made the rounds on the internet:


Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Jujubee I love that letter. I used some of the points once with an anti gay activist group locally. This was about ten years ago. The man on the phone didn't know what to say.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I do understand that concern. I guess my only thought is that if he is God and he is capable of turning nothing into everything we see, he is way more than capable of ensuring that what he said stays intact.

To me, saying you're going to claim it but disregard the parts you don't like would be like me saying I'm a 'left-winged liberal' and saying I want to disregard the party planks regarding abortion, military conflicts, and the gay agenda, but don't you dare say I'm not a true 'left-winged liberal'. I would think that people who take their left-wing politics seriously wouldn't necessarily see me as sitting under their big tent.

wowitsdark.......check your messages...........

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Melissa

Will do when I can - I am on a mobile device and it acts funky when I try to bring my messages up...