Forgive me in advance (that makes it o.k. right?)


Well it works for politicians/celebs and basically one else who wants to "get away" with something scandalous. Do it first and then apologize for it afterward so it's easier to digest.


Stepping up on the soap box here. {{clearing my throat}} eh hum.
I once saw the following it moved me with it's simple truth.

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

"From bondage to spiritual faith;

from spiritual faith to great courage;

from courage to liberty;

from liberty to abundance;

from abundance to selfishness;

from selfishness to apathy;

from apathy to dependence;

from dependency back again into bondage."

Stop and think about where "We the People" are in that line up.
I'm sick and tired of turning on or reading the news and finding articles that just make you wonder where America is heading????

My family's blood has been shed over many generations to make this country great and now I'm forced to give my children a burden so astronomical they will likely pass it to their children. BONDAGE? ya think????

There may not be a "civil war" being fought on battlefields right now in this great land but even more scary, it's a war being fostered in our homes where I teach my children to believe in one ideology and others convince their children a watered down version of decency & family values are enough to see us through.
Too little too late is going to destroy the foundation on which this country was built. It's being chipped away at.

I didn't cry recently that Mrs. June Cleaver or Ritchie Cunningham's dad died but I did sit up and take notice that it is VERY sad that "era" of wholesomeness is past.
Read that word PAST, not passed. I wish it had been PASSED. Passed down from that generation to the next and the next and the next.
Who dropped the torch? Who fumbled the baton? Why aren't people just "nice" anymore? What's being "multiplied" into the world isn't "nice" anymore.

My heart breaks for future I see coming for my grandchildren one day.
Put a little more "wholesome" into your kids today. Even if they think it's corny. It's a seed and it needs to be planted, cultivated and harvested one day on a day we may not live long enough to see.

{{stepping down but storing that soap box in the corner if I need it again and again and again}}

X

__________________

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

I agree with you on this one

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I agree, as well.

__________________
Kim

Totally agree with you.

Totally agree 100 percent as well..... Peace. Catherine

Well, I'm glad the era of June Cleaver has passed. That's oppression!

I think phrases like "family values" and "wholesome" obfuscate, rather than clarify goals and intentions.

What does it mean to put more "wholesome" in your kids?

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Teach them to be ethical, honest, to respect other people, to work hard, to not expect a hand out, to be loyal to the person you took vows with, etc.

No matter what one's political views are I think we can all agree that the debt and other problems we are passing to our offspring is a shame and this is not the way it was supposed to be.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

dictionary.com defines wholesome: conducive to moral or general well-being; salutary; beneficial:

Perhaps if people gave a damn more about morals and teaching those morals to children, we'd be in better shape. And I'm talking basic things: respecting others, respecting yourself, treating others the way you would want to be treated, honesty, living within your means, etc.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

To each his own...but quite frankly, I'd have LOVED to have lived during the June Cleaver era...and have lived her life (at least, the one she lived on tv). To quote a 50's commercial, I would've been a "Good little Maxwell House wife". I'm tired of worrying about bills, tired of working outside the home as well as inside the home, tired of rushing from place to place to place without having time to stop and enjoy life. Cleaning house in pearls? Count me IN, baby!

I am thrilled with the times I am living in. Rest assured, my kids are moral and ethical beings. I am not sure what "wholesome" means to you, but we played together, ate together, and had a generally great time. Because I was afforded the option to complete my education and to get experience working, my husband enjoyed a few years being a stay at home dad. LOL -- imagine that happening in your mythical, magical, wonderland. I have never understood women who place all the financial burden on their husbands or men who don't take care for their children. Seriously, it astounds me.

I don't believe my life experiences are particularly unusual or unique. I am sorry some of you have had such a negative life experience.

Oh good God! It isn't about negative life experience.

When you see child who has been kicked out of their homes by their PARENTS because the child was an inconvenience--kind of hard to say that all parents bestow wholesome "teachings" to their children.

When you see way too many young adults with a HUGE sense of entitlement for things they have not earned? Not too wholesome.

When you see our elderly having to choose between food, heat or medicine? Our society is failing the ones who built it.

It's not about the whole "Donna Reed/June Cleaver" oppression to women issue--it's about society has gotten away from the basic tenets that made our country great in the first place.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

ita. Some here have to continually tout their self perceived goodness and miss the point in doing so. The op made some true, accurate points, and is right. Our society has had a shift in the less than desirable direction. It's a blame game where no one is ever responsible, a selfish I want everything and I want it now mode, a greedy, undercutting mode, a my child is never wrong mind set, an entitlement mindset among many things that are going on - let the government take care of me.........it's going on and it's not on a small scale.

dl

I think alot depends on where you live too (for me anyway). We used to be military and have lived different places. We live in a small town now that reminds me of Mayberry, town, school, people, much different than the larger cities like Atlanta or Norfolk or some of the other cities we/I have lived.

We live where the school still calls a Halloween party a "Halloween" party and the kids still pray before ball games if they want to, on Wednesday nights the big events in town are church activities (no ball games, no practices, nothing is scheduled during church time, they schedule before and after). We have a population of 1200 and there are 4 very active churchs in town. We have no gangs, very little crime, I think there's been 1 murder in 30 years or something like that. I would never want to live in a large city again after living here! Now 25 miles away you have the "cesspool" as my husband calls it, the town we both work in, lol.

__________________
visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

No matter what there is one thing we as kids were raised with and that was respect, for our elder and for each other and relatives always. I also firmly believe as a parent, you must be a parent 100 percent of the time over and over. Some believe oh well your 18 on your own goodbye. I know I was raised the right way and it has made me the person I am today. I am far from perfect, but I totally believe in respect and being nice and kind and saying thank you all the time.That is the way we have raised our children, to be respectful and kind towards others and to accept all walks of life and not to judge. But most of all to tell them always how much we love them and to hear them at their age still say love you too Mom and Dad that means alot. So much as changed in America for sure I sincerely wish we could go back to when immigrants arrived here in America and were so proud to be part of the best country in the world, They worked extremely hard learned the language and started families. As far as June Cleaver is concerned we all know we are talking about a family, while perhaps she did everything by the book and all seemed so clean and tidy and neat and all went well, I believe I have done the same only tweaking it a bit which is okay, because the end results are we have raised really good young adults who work, who go to college who work hard, who bring home good grades and are making serious choices for their future and it will only get harder as we see our country in now. Only time will tell for my children what will happen. Bottom line I want and wish the very best for my children and grandchildren one day and hopefully it will happen. Nice thread. Peace. Catherine

Wanted to add this as far as politicans goes I have firmly decided at this point while I will always be a liberal democrat that will never change I am just liberal plain and simple I do not trust anyone right now especially where we stand in this country and only hope it will get better. As far as celebs are concerned sadly there are just a handfull who are true decent caring honest people. Some of them because they are celebs think they are above the laws of any kind and do and speak all they want . For instance I loved Rosie O'donnel loved her show and then when it was all over and she came to the view and came out of the closet about being gay, she changed so much I do not like her at all and I can add Whoppie Goldberg to the list, liked her very much, but what they sprew out of their mouths because they are celebs is disgusting lately honestly while I am at it the whole cast of the View should go sorry to get off topic please continue. Peace. Catherine

This goes around with every generation. Oh, the kids of today are a disgrace! Oh, except my kids, of course.

The children of the 60s are many of the folks bemoaning the conditions today. And, while they were "hippies", the grown-ups then were singing the same song.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

It has changed. Teachers are no longer right and cannot discipline appropriately. The first place ribbons are many while every little Johnny and Jennifer are deemed winners. No longer do lj and lj get in double trouble at home. Nope, they can bank on their parents marching to their defense so they continue to be conditioned that their behaviour was right and they are winners.

This leads to even more apathy in their learning, social, and responsibility skills and characters. They then go to work and expect to do very little, while thinking they have excelled. They expect to be in charge and yet have no experience. They assert that they are the best while they are mediocre.

There is a distinct change.

dl

All this! So true!

There's just so much wrong, I wouldn't even know where to start! It is true that there has been wrong going on a long time, I think the 60s started it all and it's just been down hill from there!

I think this country is going to hell in a bucket!

Although every generation has complained about the children as Jujubee stated, there is something fundamental missing these days. Dishonesty has reached a new level both in private life and public life. We are in a financial crisis the likes of which we haven't seen. I don't see a way out. There is no base for manufacturing as jobs have gone overseas. Couples no longer find it necessary to work out their problems they opt for an easy out.
The government is seen as a provider for many who don't seem to realize that when it comes to money we are the govt! The money doesn't come out of a suitcase in the back of someone's closet.
Obesity is at an all time high and junk food is plentiful and encouraged even in the schools many of which stock junk in machines simply to rake in a few bucks because they're going broke.
Children used to respect their elders for the most part. Now they let the door slam behind them without looking, throw their garbage on the ground and sit in front of the tv killing hookers and being a pimp gangster on the video game. They are posting inappropriate images online and saying things that make us cringe. Thank God there wasn't an internet when I was growing up for just this reason.

I'm happy to live in an age of technology for many reasons however for other reasons I would have preferred to have lived in more "innocent" time.

This is not to say I have a miserable life or that I'm unhappy about my situation. It's simply an observation on how life is different today.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Jujubee you know I like you alot and I agree my children are not perfect nor are many other members here children are they perfect, but from what I view from today I am blessed to have respectable fine young adults who will hopefully make the future a better place to live for all. I also agree with all generations past there was always bad and good in all kids and adults, but sorry in todays society the disrepect and attitude and the music and the videos have gone too far and because I work with 5 and 6 year old and am in a building where the ages goes up to 9 it starts so young and I firmly believe for the most part it stems from the home , it is learned I personally view so much neglect I could talk for a long time. Peace. Catherine

Unquestionably, society is much different today, and not for the better in many aspects.

June Cleaver oppressed? As opposed to what? Women who have to wear burkas 24/7 or face a good stoning to death?

I realize she was a fictional character, but she embodied tenants that as a people we would do well to resurrect.

- She chose well in the 'life mate' department, choosing someone who would love and care for her and their children

- She wasn't afraid to lay down the law when her kids did something wrong, and worked as a team with her husband to lovingly enforce and explain the family rules

- She had pride in her appearance, which is a lot more about self-respect than it is about vanity. She got up and got ready for the day and put her 'game face' on, rather than lollygagging around the house in her robe waiting for As the World Turns to come on at 1:00 in the afternoon.

- She took her responsibilities seriously. She didn't work for money - she saw her 'job' as being the grease in the wheel of their home, keeping it running smoothly, being around to eavesdrop on conversations to know if Eddie Haskell was being a bad influence on her kids so she could steer them in a better direction, etc.

- She created a peace and secuity for everyone in her family by being a rock.

Women today often get hung up on the fact that she didn't have an out-of-the-house job with a paycheck and think that means 'bondage'. I think that's an angry and bitter way to look at women. She made babies and took their care and nutruring on as her primary responsibility and focus, and together with her husband she shaped their character. Why do people see that contribution to society as 'less than' somebody who goes out to earn more *money* for the family? Kids need enough 'money' in their lives to provide them with food and shelter, and if there is more for extras, great... but what they truly need is a set of parents dedicated to their health and the development of character.

Contrast that with kids who are left to be raised by Hannah Montana. They aren't even raised by Billy Ray, because he's always the dumb dolt and it's his child who is the smart one with all the <cough> wisdom.

The Cleavers would have been embarassed to let the government feed their children three meals a day. They had too much self-respect and too great a sense of responsibility to their own family to dump them off at school at 6:00 AM and not see them again until 6:00 PM at night.

You'll never be able to convince me that it's a beneficial thing that our culture that fights more to teach kids about how to have sex than fights about reading standards, that is more consumed with the 'rights' of teenage girls to get pregnant and have abortions than it is about teaching them the responsibility to avoid risky behaviours in the first place, that reveres Lady Gaga for having the courage to be weird more than Hilary Clinton or Sarah Palin for having the courage to put themselves 'out there' and shape the world through the courage of their convictions....

I do think that we have a bit of a skewed picture of what life was like when Laura Ingalls Wilder was a child. EVERYBODY did not live like that. There were alcoholics then. There were adulterous affairs and worthless fathers and children who went to bed hungry then, too. But the difference, I believe, is that society at least knew what the standard was *supposed* to be. And they measured themselves by it, and they measured each other by it, and by and large they aspired to meet it.

Today, we've decided there really ARE no standards. We don't judge anyone when sometimes somebody needs some swift judgment. We mock people like June Cleaver as we walk around claiming how 'enlightened' we are. We smugly look at our own parenting style and proclaim it the standard whether it produces good results or not, and defy anyone to criticize us.

Frankly, I think - no, I know - that it's the absence of faith in God that is at the heart of it.

I have 4 siblings and they all have 2 children each. So 4 very different ways of raising their children. Of the 4, the strictest of the 4 that raised their children in a very strict Baptist environment and very high morals are the 2 children that are absolutely an example of what young adults in America should all aspire to be. If only all people were such upstanding people this Country would be an incredible place to live!

Then the worst is my sister that gave her kids everything, set no standards of living, they were like Gods in her eyes. The epitome of the parent that comes to the rescue if a teacher tried to correct her darling angels. These kids are absolutely total losers and represent what is wrong with our society. Kids with a sense of entitlement..it's all about ME ME ME!!!! I believe her kids will be dependent on her until she dies! I really have lost all hope that they will turn themselves around because even though they are just unable to do anything for themselves...my sister is always there defending them!

The other 2 siblings' children are somewhere in the middle. And were raised somewhere in the middle. Not real strict but not too loose either.

If the term "Family Values" and the word "wholesome" are perplexing and bewildering in today's day and age, then it substantiates the claim I'm making in the OP that we have shifted from a society that cohesively knew Right from Wrong and shared an innate knowledge of how powerful good and evil really are.

and I wanted to clear something up before I addressed your question. In a later post you referenced This goes around with every generation. Oh, the kids of today are a disgrace! Oh, except my kids, of course.
... In the original post I didn't lay blame on the kids. I was asking that as parents, WE (our generation) take a moment to slow down and connect with our kids without the noise of the outside world right now.


What does it mean to put more "wholesome" in your kids? I think I'm being baited for the sake of argument but here goes.

I'll make an example of one part of kid's lives these days that needs "wholesome" attention. Because I used a reference to TV/Entertainment I'll go back to that area.

Indoctrination and Conditioning are being force fed to our children in MASSIVE quantities and if you look closely you'll see how much of it is just plain toxic.

and before you ask what I mean by those two words - I'll share the intent I have in using them.
Indoctrination — vb
1. to teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically

Conditioning used as a noun in Psychology
1. a process of changing behavior by rewarding or punishing a subject each time an action is performed until the subject associates the action with pleasure or distress.
or as a verb in Psychology
to establish a conditioned response in a subject.

But back to how it's happening in the entertainment realm.

Recently a story made headlines about a Rutgers College Student who jumped from a bridge after being secretly videotaped by his roommate. Oh the outrage that poured out on news outlets and even here there was a post where people expressed the desire to see the individuals who had done punished to the FULL extent of the law. For shame on those people!!! cried the angry mob...
But were those people shaking their fist with a movie ticket in it?????
Cruel Intentions, Porkys, Revenge of the Nerds, American Beauty, Van Wilder and The American Pie Series (which by the way grossed $754,485,802.00 dollars worldwide so somebody's watching) ... do I need to go on here?
"Entertainment" conditioned college kids to believe it was FUNNY (entertaining right?) to prank someone with hidden cameras or filming intimate moments of others. HA HA HA HA HA HA ... What? -

$64 million dollar question here... outraged Society just asked "What on earth would make those kids think it was O.K. to invade someone's privacy like that?"

uh duh.... your ticket money fueled an industry to make more indoctrinating sarcasm here ENTERTAINMENT.

But back to wholesome - movies are just one avenue the world at large is reaching us. How about some of the most popular TV shows for teens right now.
It's tv right? no money for a ticket...-- Wizards of Waverly Place, I-Carley, Vampire Diaries, GLEE, The Secret Life of the American Teenager, Gossip Girl....
What themes do these shows glamorize??? - What topics of conversations do these shows start at the family dinner table? Promiscuity, incest, Lying, Cheating, Illegal drug use, Sexting, Vindictiveness, the list grows. There is a conditioning over time that crossed from "entertainment" (in some people's minds) to reality. Kids will emulate situations they see on these shows. refer back to the Rutgers situation. No harm meant, it was supposed to be funny right?--- well it was three quarters of a billion dollars worth of funny on the big screen right?

Anyway, I could use other examples in other areas. That old saying about how children learn by example. What mixed messages are we sending those kids when we market "entertainment" in this way?

Put wholesome into your kids means connecting with your kids and not sending mixed messages about INTEGRITY.
The world does not revolve around a cell phone it revolves around humanity. What kind of humanity is being cultivated in kids that have a false sense of decency that comes from the "well everybody else is doing it, why can't I?" mentality.

That's my concern,
and I hope whoever reads this is taking note NOT to bring religion into this.
This message is elemental level right vs. wrong.
juju, you might not agree with me but I've tried to make it clear enough for others
who might.


X

__________________

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

When people are listening to songs about a boyfriend beating the crap out of a woman and she just keeps running back for more and more....and this kind of garbage is the number one top selling music hit....good god almighty! But don't dare anyone say that music is garbage because it's going to be someone's favorite entertainer and lawd knows that entertainers are next to godly in their stature here in the USA! Instead of holding people of high standards up high, the people of today and worshiping singers as if they are some sort of hero. They aren't heroes, they are just people that sing for crying out loud! People need to stop worshiping celebrities as if they are gods!!!!

Great post, Xhausted.

I was a 'good kid'. I really good kid.

But was I negatively influenced by things available en masse to our populace? You betcha.

I read every Judy Blume book cover to cover. I don't think my mom was totally clued in - that, or she just figured anything with cute pictures on the cover was fine for a child.

My worst 4th grade memory is of a sleepover where I suggested we make Slam Books like they did in one of JB's books. Oh, that was a terrible night. We all ended up in tears, angry, bitter... and some of those friendships were never the same.

I only say that because it does prove your point - that kids are seceptible to the things we see, hear, and read, and when they are presented in a funny or an entertaining manner it's easy for young and less-wise minds to adapt those things as 'standard behavior'.

If a teacher had stood up in a classroom - or if a parent had said to me - "What would you think of a game where you wrote your name on a piece of paper and then passed it around so all of your friends could write one thing on it that they don't like about you?" I would have quickly come to the conclusion that, "That's a STUPID idea for a game!!!!!"

But because it seemed so funny and entertaining when I read about it, it seemed like a great idea to my impressionable mind.

I don't think, though, that you can truly separate religion from this topic. Your premise began with this:


"From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;"

I think that when people turn their backs on faith and come to the conclusion that anything goes and that there is no higher power that they have to be accountable to than their own personal wish list, societies crumble.

I don't watch the other shows you listed....but, I do actually watch Wizards and I-Carley.

Those two shows are ok. While you may not agree with the "magic" portion of Wizards--it does show some very important life lessons: you don't succeed in trying to take the easy way out, that your family is your best supporters but will tell you when you're wrong, the father gave up being a wizard so he could marry the woman he loved...So other than some goofiness, it does have some good life lessons (and has sparked good, intelligent conversation in our home).

ICarley--also shows some important life lessons. yeah, it's a goofy kids' show, but it gets a point across without being overbearing.

---off my soapbox---

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I guess I have to disagree with you there, Marilyn.

Yes, they are clever and funny, and yes there are some sweet moments, but overall there is this same theme - the kids are so smart they can do no wrong, and the parents are rather doofy and unnecessary. There's a lot of smack talk and back talk and everybody is worried about who has been kissed and who hasn't and who they can kiss next, etc..

The whole general 'theme' of entertainment marketed to the pre-teen child today (and five year old children are certainly sucked right in to I-Carly) is not like what we used to see as kids, where the Brady's, the Cleavers, Andy Griffeth, the Cunninghams, the Ingalls, and even the Jetson's were concerned. In the past, the parents were there as the stabilizing force when kids started down a wrong path.

Couple that with homes were the dads seem emasculated and the moms are more concerned with their kids having 'stuff' than having character, and it's a recipe for a lot of dysfunction.

Does tv *cause* it? No. My kids do watch a lot of those shows and they're extremely grounded. But I've gotta tell you, having now seen a crop of classmates go from K - graduation, looking back at the kindergarten versions of the kids who have had a lot of issues through HS, there was definitely a media-focused, "OH! I wanna be JUST like Lizzy McGuire" sort of a componant that was a common thread among those who ultimately didn't stay all that grounded. The problem is the absence of parents being in the game and the presence of entertainment as a substitute.

Again I stand firm and totally believe it starts from the home and how we were raised and how we raise our own children. Sure I will say for sure my parents were stricter then we are towards our children and of course growing up me and my brothers did not always think it was right and sometimes we did get upset. However I truly was a really good kid very shy never ever got into trouble. My brothers being being boys were more out going and hanging out, but there would be my dad driving his famous and totally green ford granada all around the town to do his check-ups on my brothers and sometimes me. Honestly I was 17 and had to be home at 9.30 and I will tell you if time passed my dad would walk the few blocks to come and get me and my brothers. Of course now looking back as an adult I realize as a parent you can never worry too much care too much or love too much for their well being and concern and welfare. Of course me and my husband are not as strict , we definitely bended the rules then our parents would have. But the bottom line is we always always have been there 1000th percent for our children to care, to love, to take the time to always say I love you, have dinner together always on vacations together. Of course and along the way to teach them respect for themselves and for others and elders. Today was a one fine example being my brother Sonny's birthday in heaven, my Son Tommy came with me and my parents. He has the upmost respect for his grandparents and helped my mom walk with her walker and I love that he kisses both his grandparents and tells them he loves them not too many 22 year olds too that today. Sadly my nephew who is 21 I love him but he sleeps all day does not work no college just hangs out and does nothing. Now that would not sit with us they must go to school and get a education, they must work parttime they need their own money and it teachs them responsibility. I cannot speak for my nephew that is up to his parents . I have now put our last child in College and she has a heavy work load and sure it is hard but in the long run she will benefit so much. Tommy is in his last year and Hope graduated 2 years ago. I could go on and on, but we need more respectable hardworking caring fine adults in our society and June Cleaver while I would not agree 100 percent with all she did, she did and was a wonderful mom and wife and . Like I have mentioned here before and did get slack for it because I mentioned tattoos and piercings , they are okay for us, but in the scheme of life they are so small, I worry more about being young adults, sex, drugs, violence, getting into trouble with the law those are big issues. I believe by how we raised our children they know better and have made some really good choices on how they approach life and to be a better person a better adult for all mankind. Peace. Love this post. Catherine

Clearly I'm the odd woman out and I'm too tired to argue much, but I think there have always been brats and there always will be brats. People in the Victorian era would have been scandalized by June Cleaver for showing her ankles. Times change and the problems change, c'est la vie.

If you dream of being June Cleaver - think of what would happen if you lost your husband when you'd never worked and probably never went to college. If you have kids, you'd have no way to support them (unless you have life insurance up the ying-yang) and might well end up on food stamps and welfare. You know - a free-loader many of you hate so much.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Jujubee listen hon I am far, far from the June Cleaver for sure remember I am the liberal person here not sure how much more liberal then other people. As i mentioned while I worry more about drugs, alcohol , sex, getting pregnant before they are married, driving, texting, violence, getting into trouble with the law, I am sure June Cleaver would never approve of all my parenting rules and guidelines for sure and that is a bet lol. Like I mentioned before tattoos, piercings, coloring their hair more colors then I could count, my son Tommy with his long long hair down now to the middle of his back, free to date whom they choose, outside their religion or race those issues are small to me. Perhaps Jujubee you are missing some of the points people have spoken here, so I will try again when it comes down it the bottom line June Cleaver had really good intentions and the part I liked very much was that she took the role of a mom and wife very seriously as I do just not as much as she did. For example you would never find me at 7/30 a.m.making breakfest for my husband and being totally dressed for a wedding. Being a stay at home mom and taking care of the house you must admit is the hardest job in the world and it is not for everyone I dearly realize that. But I fully support any women who would work outside of the home and see no harm in a wife contributing to the household bills especially in todays times for sure. Honestly I know for me it just comes down to raising my children to be honestly well rounded good fine young adults who do the right things in life , work hard, respect each other respect themselves respect elders and if I accomplish that, then I have done a good job. Hopefully this makes some sense I liked alot what June Cleaver did but I am far from her for sure.. Peace and relax . Catherine

I'm not discounting stay-at-home Moms. Two of my sisters are/were stay at home Moms. But they completed college and held jobs before they had kids. One is back in the work force now that her kids are grown up. I know the other one could be too. She was an RN and has kept her license up to date. June didn't have any marketable skills. Had Ward kicked the bucket or dumped June for Eddie Haskell's mom, Wally and the Beaver probably would have been living in a shelter before too long.

Furthermore, my sisters don't defer all decisions to their husbands, they way June did. They know how to get things done.

(That's a lovely dress you're wearing, Mrs. Cleaver.)

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I'm sure Mr Cleaver had a generous life insurance policy. June would not have had to work outside the home if anything happened to him. And I don't think she deferred all the decisions to him I think like many couples she respected him and they made compromises. It was a tv show for goodness' sake.

I would love it if I didn't have to work and I could stay home and tend to the house and my family.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Again Jujubee in my marriage its a 50/50 pact we discuss everything equally its always a give and take in order for a marriage to survive. You also must remember June Cleaver time was different when women were always dressed and the house was neat as a pin . Me personally my family always came first and foremost and always will, but now as they are older I can afford to work some hours outside of the home it is in my school district so I was always right there for my children. Anna I agree with you while I love the few hours out my choice I do love my home very much , there is no place like home for sure. Peace. Catherine

In that era: Men rarely dumped their families for an affair.

And frankly, I think that a lot of times when you see a woman deferring to her husband, it's not because they HAVE to---it's because they can, and they choose to. They defer so that the man feels like well, a man. We all know that the woman typically allows the husband to *THINK* he's in charge!! LOL

And how do you know that June didn't have any marketable skills??? Which episode was that in? LOL

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

LOL... from Wikipedia:

As a teen, June knew and dated Ward Cleaver, a farmer's son. Ward lived in nearby Shaker Heights. The two attended State college together. June kept her maiden name, Bronson, as one of her middle names after marrying Ward.

June is dedicated to her family; her interests outside the home are social events like weddings or school events like meetings and plays. She has ladylike pastimes: needlepoint, cake decorating, and arranging tea roses. She reads glossy but high-toned, tasteful women's magazines. In one episode, she entertains the ladies in her social club only to see the event ruined by Beaver's monkey who despoils the foods on the dining table. When the boys arrive home from school, June can be found in the kitchen chopping salad vegetables, basting a roast, or icing a cake. Her kitchen is immaculate. Like most TV middle class sitcom families of the era, the Cleavers eat breakfast and lunch in the kitchen while their dinners are full scale affairs in the dining room.

June and Ward sleep in twin beds and have a portable television set in their room. Now and then, she drives the family's Ford Fairlane if she has a specific errand. Ward occasionally dries the dishes for her; at other times, she has to goad him to do minor chores or repairs around the house. June has occasional house help in the person of Minerva and in the later episodes a Mrs. Manners, who (according to Beaver) smells like gingerbread. June does not completely trust Ward's Uncle Billy because he fills her sons' heads with fancies of irresponsible living.

Marilyn I totally agree with you about the part about men leaving their wifes to have an affair oh I am sure it happened but not in todays society for sure, so much cheating and fooling aroung and sleeping around like it is nothing. Of course with all that our famous celebs to with their private and personal lives is not good at all and they seem to think because of their status they are above it all and can have their cake and eat it too disgusting. I will always say if you not happy, not in love, have tried to work out your problems seeked out professional help and all in the end nothing changes, then please feel free leave and then start a new relationship . It never ceases to amaze me how easily people cheat on their spouses both men and women alike... and that sadly has a huge impact on the children.. Peace. Catherine

Really? Do you have statistics? I think it just wasn't talked about, but happened. I knew plenty of kids who's parents were divorced when I was a kid. Of course I don't know if an affair was the reason, but I was just using that as a for instance for June anyway.

Ew. I'd hate to be married to a guy that needed that to feel like a man.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Jujubee I agree also that affairs certaintely happened for sure , affairs and cheating have been going for centuries and I also agree with you about making my man feel like a man, we are equal none better none worse at least in our marriage. Take care.. peace. Catherine

Sounds like a fine description of religion to me.

No kidding!

(Why does my response have to be at least 10 words?)

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Okay most know my thoughts are religion I am not for following my religion straight page by page word for word, however I still firmly believe in respect and moral family values and in todays society it has gotten way out of hand for sure. Peace. Catherine

Pop History - Families of the Fifties

get over yourself. In our typically male dominated society, the man is perceived to be "in charge", and most women don't have an issue with that, because perception does not equal the truth.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Men and women are different both emotionally and psychologically. They get their self esteem in different ways they view the world in different ways. Every single woman I am related to and many who I am friends with totally rule the house in many ways however we let our men be "the man". I respect and love my husband and although I wouldn't consider my subservient in any way I respect his wishes in most things.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

If that's all you could make of that post, you missed the discussion I was trying to bring to the table.

JuJu, I truly did not intend to discuss June Cleaver. I merely used a current event as a media example.

I did open a news story today that surprised me though...
A proposed revision to gun ownership permit procedures in NYC.
The words being deemed to lack "good moral character" jumped off the page as one reason a person could be denied their permit.

Well at least they're going to sit down and debate it. That should be interesting.

And in my defense, I'd like to think I'm usually a pretty upbeat person but between the all the Election rhetoric being bantered about, the issue of NON citizens being given voting rights and other general craziness in the making I felt a need to pause and take stock out loud. Thanks for listening and understanding where I was coming from.

X

__________________

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

Annadrose, the word respect it is all about respect, for ourselves, each other, all different religions, races, creed, color living in todays times we need more respect towards each other, we must offer more kindness and peace for the world has changed so much , if not it will only get worse and I cannot bare it to get worse. A bit off topic when wowitsdark mentioned the part about the cleavers sleeping in twin beds so did Lucy and Ricky and the DicK Van Dyke show, yet they were always smoking and drinking and today there is everything and for our really young viewers and especially under 13 it is a bit too much some shows have really gone too far. I totally loved Little House on the Prairie I loved Michael Landon wanted to marry him, he was so handsome and while living in those times was extremely hard and we only got a television view, the quality of family life the Ingalls installed in their children was wonderful and when Michael Landon cried those were real tears... Brady Bunch well now looking back it was kinda corny I especially loved the part when 2 parents could be in their bed in their sleepware, reading books all quiet while they had 6 kids too funny. Of course now when I view the show I know the end result was to teach the children to do the right thing in life to become a better productive good person . Peace. Catherine

Take your own advice.

If you're willing to pretend that you give your husband or boyfriend decision-making powers and that makes him feel more manly, I feel sorry for you. That's not a man, that's a baby.

You know what else was common in the 50s? Segregation. I guess you don't have an issue with that either - cause it was typical in our white-dominated society.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Segragration should not be brought into this thread that is a whole different story Jujubee I am not discounting men ruling over their women, sadly while it does happen all over the world really racism not does belong here in this thread. Boy this thread has gotten out of hand . peace to all. Catherine

Why not? People are waxing nostalgic over an era when segregation was not uncommon. Marilyn's recommendation that women pretend to defer to men is like recommending that African Americans pretend to defer to whites.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

LOL--you are laughable, and presuming a lot of things. It must be nice in that little world of yours that you live in....or miserable, depending on which voices you listen to!

Just because I think that the 50s were a simpler time family wise, and the families tended to be traditional--I applaud that to some degree--you presume that I think segregation is/was ok? Geez.
FYI--segregation is still alive and well in our society. Saw it growing up in the South w/ the African Americans, and see it now living in the Northwest with the Native americans. It's not ok--no matter what race is segregated.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Sadly racism will always exist, it is a known sad reality for sure. Jujubee no one ever said that segregation does not exist but to compare it to the way households were run in the 50's was a totally different time. I am sure most most women would never stand in todays times for the man her husband to totally rule the roost and control everything in their lifes or household, I know personally I never would, but I totally agree those times were more homely and more pure and there was more respect and honestly in todays times we do need it so much more for sure... Peace. Catherine

No I was comparing your statement that women should defer to men to the notion that African Americans should defer to whites. I said it plainly, but you got trapped and tried to twist it around. (Ridicule doesn't help your cause, by the way -- just emphasizes that you feel cornered.)

Sorry, you fail.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Someone who claims not to see a difference in two people who love each other deferring to the wishes of one other as a guesture of appreciation and respect and people making negative judgments about an entire demographic based on a physiological attribute is either:

1) Being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse, or
2) Utterly stupid

Too bad we'll never know which is in play here...

OH, nope--you fail. I never said that women should defer to men. I said that women who do that, usually do so KNOWING that ultimately they (the women) are the ones who are in charge. Women who do that have/had a choice. The whole hand that rocks the cradle rules the world thing.

Other races did not, and to some extent do not, have a choice.

And if you can't or won't understand that, then it is you with the problem--not me!

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Wowitsdark I truly loved what you wrote and again like I have said in my marriage and what I view as a really good marriage should be is always 50/50 always it is a give and take in order for a marriage to survive you must put effort and hard work, and always put that person your spouse above all others and mostly and always the most important keys are for total respect for each other and too truly love your spouse, sadly again so many divorces and cheating going on these days. Of course there was cheating happening in those days but far far less then today.Also in the best of marriages and with all the love spouses still cheat.. Peace. Catherine