http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21bccola.html?_r=2

It's situations like the one in that article that are why I am not for national health care.

So many 'benefits' scenarios our government sets up become unsustainable over time. It has nothing to do with wanting babies to starve and wanting people suffering from cancer to die (and conservatives are often painted in that light). It has everything to do with the reality that there comes a day, always, when the benefits these programs promise cost far more than there is money available to pay for them.

We've got to stop promising the moon and committing ourselves to things we simply cannot afford.

National health care.......

Ahhhh yes, more of some taking care of others. More of give, give, give while others take, take, take. There were other ways to jump start beneficial changes for health care and it doesn't involve what it has evolved to.

dl

I don't even so much think of it as give-give-give and take-take-take. I understand *why* it sounds like a good idea to have it be like our roads and our parks - just something that *exists* due to the financial contributions of the masses, and utilized by the masses....

But these contracted promises of long-term provision just aren't based in economic reality.

I live in what was determined to be the "happiest" state in the nation within the past couple of years. Interestingly, it was discovered that the mayor of the largest city in our state was involved in writing contracts for the city's retired firefighters and policemen that would give them $12K bonuses and would allow them to take early retirement as early as age 45 (if they started their careers at age 20) with around 65 - 70% of their pay... and they would still get these $12K bonuses at Christmas, health coverage, etc.

They are voting to recall that mayor (next week, I believe) because that's just not how it is done around here. lol

I just scratch my head at these municipalities and states that enter into contractual agreements to allow retirement at ages much younger than is possible in the private sector, and with such generous pay to *not* work.

Here we go again with healthcare reform, I still cannot believe to you wow, that you are againist it, while again we are still involved in a war, which should have never started and yet as cost our country and taxpayers billions of dollars and still so much more money yet to come, why do you never ever mention that. Now I know this thread is not about the war, but I will continue to bring it up, to compare the useless billions of dollars that have been spent, to the healthcare reform and the money us taxpayers will have to put into it. Do you ever think perhaps if you were the person who needed to take advantage and did not have medical insurance for the really sick, the elderly, senior citizens, young children, babies, no matter the age, you need medical insurance. I am shaking my head that you are still againist it, and yes for the record it is the conservatives, the ones with all the money who are againist it, its a plain fact. Fact and this is a real fact the rich get richer and poor get poorer. No but keep that war going and all that money and the lifes lost, lets toss that under the rug and forget it, but keep it going, and lets no afford people who really need serious healthcare, the hell with them right Wow???. Shaking my head. Catherine

To deddlastt healthcare reform is a big issue for me, so I am truly interested please explain to me how we can jump start a program that will help the really needed people who would truly benefit, please not starting any trouble, but this really is a huge issue for so many people who are truly sick and need medical treatment and prescription drugs on a daily basis. Thanks so much in advance. Catherine

Conservatives are the ones with all the money? That's a laugh and a half. Where's all my money then???? My 3 best friends are all conservatives and all poor, or just squeaking by. So much for that HUGE generalization.
I am not for the heath care bill. I know that the health care/insurance situation is not the best but that bill was rushed in so quickly it should have made all of our heads spin.

You already started the trouble yourself above by bringing up the war. It doesn't belong in this thread, but AGAIN you have YOUR agenda.

Jumpstart - let's start with being responsible for ourselves. Don't spend all of your money at Walmart, on that new car, house, clothes, nails, phones, etc! Try a little self restraint and save some money. Gosh, teh thought of actually paying for insurance instead of those other "necessities" and yes, there are people who are eligible for insurance and opt not to participate.

Further, it's turned into the insurance companies telling health care providers what is best. And what is best for the insurance company is not spending money. They skew the numbers and figures and percentages the way it's favorable to them for their premium increases and denial of treatment.

Congress should be realistic and have the same care as others, not guaranteed Cadillac health care.

I bet I didn't surprise you with any of what I've said. It's obvious all of us have to cut back, but those who can pay for their own insurance should.

dl

I realize that there is an issue with our healthcare system, but I think this plan....is NOT the answer. Something for nothing...will not work.

Your wrong Dd if you want to talk about healthcare reform which is all costing us money, then the war has to come into the subject matter, because it too has cause us taxpayers useless billions of dollars and yet so much more to come. It is not my agenda it is a fact the this war has caused us so much money, why is that not a issue with you, especially when countless of innocent lives were lost, when this healthcare reform can help many people who cannot afford even the basic health coverage. Pray none of you are ever in that boat and really sick and need basic medical coverage or health, or worse have to rely on several medications to get through the day. To Kathy I do not know where you got your information from, but I stand firm more rich people are conservatives for sure, it is all about the money, and making more money. But again we will not see eye to eye because I am a liberal democrat, who did not want the war, and wanted the Healthcare reform bill passed. You all may go on, I have stated my views and it will end here.

oh boy ill. I, and most others, are constantly wrong according to you. How nice. You constantly bring the war into threads when it is unwarranted. Yet several times over you've promised, on your own, to not do that.

My dh is retired USAF and while I didn't sign on the line, I lived the life. I have a lot of issues with the war, but in the right place and time. You act like only liberal democrats didn't "want" the war. You are so far off basis. I have, perhaps, more interest and even more insight into the military than you can ever have even if you keep singing that you have.

Okey dokey. I'll run with your proposal of it's ok to bring the war into this thread. And yet you hang yourself by only menitoning the war regarding costing money. Go ahead and talk about the great health care and retirement some elected officals net long after they've been out of office. Go ahead and talk about robbing social security to bail other failing areas. Go ahead and talk about money wasted on pork pet projects. Go ahead and talk about millions being spend on surveys. Go ahead and talk about welfare, housing allotments, child care, free breakfast, reduced lunch, eic, head of household, etc, etc, etc. Go ahead and talk.

dl

My dh and I both work, and neither of us can really *afford* to go to the doctors, despite paying for and having health insurance thru our employeer. We are already paying several hundred dollars a month toward are health insurance. Basically, unless we are hospitalized our insurance covers very little. We have a $4,000 deductable. So, I am not looking forward to having to pay for our crappy health coverage, and to have to also pay more for others (who will more than likely have better coverage that we do). I am honestly growing tired of taking care of everyone else. I think Welfare is a screwed up mess, and I see this national health care heading right down the same road...its scary!

I am not sure how we can afford a health care system, our country is so in debt already. Where would the money come from? Our government/our taxes already pays for health insurance for poor children, which is ok. Now we want to add more expense to that bill.

In my personal life, I can think of alot of people who could work but choose not to. Then I can think of alot more people who have access to put their families on their work insurance but choose not to because "it's too expensive".

I would resent having to pay more out of my pocket for these type people to have medical insurance. We suck it up and get the medical insurance through my husbands work, we have a deductible and co-pays for doctors visits and prescriptions. There have been times in my life when I have even taken a certain job because of the benefits.

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visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

Catherine, I'll bite with your war question.

Whether one believes the war was a necessary evil or not, the reality is that funding the war is a short term expenditure in the grand scheme of things. Yes, it has been expensive. We can argue over whether it was a worthy expenditure or not - that is a legitimate argument. But the reason you brought the war into this discussion in the first place is because of the one thing the war and health care have in common: They both cost MONEY.

So really, the discussion needs to be about the MONEY. Otherwise, you need to start a fresh thread about the *merits* of the war.

But again... since the reason you brought up the war in *this* thread is because I started it to lament the issue with the federal government committing to all these financial benefits we can't afford, and you essentially said, "Well we can't afford the WAR either and you were all for that, so you have no room to talk!"... well... it's about what we can or can't afford.

It's about the money.

So let's talk money.

We have fought many expensive wars throughout our history as a nation. We launched our nationhood with the Revolutionary War. We fought the French and the Indians. We fought each other in the Civil War. We fought in World War I. We fought in World War II. We fought in the Korean War. We fought in the Vietnam War. We fought in the Gulf War.

And it can generally be said that each of those wars was an *event* in our history... and those *events* were finite. We went into them with the expectation that we would eventually be *out* of them. They were ALL expensive both in terms of dollars and lives... and when they were over, the bills stopped rolling in.

I realize that there are residual expenses that exist for several years - sometimes decades - after a war ends. Sometimes veterans have health issues that require care (and our $ pays for that care) for the rest of their lives. Sometimes as part of the treaties that end the wars, we end up with army bases around the world that cost money to maintain... but those bases do not then exist because of *ongoing* wars. They serve to maintain our safety, and our presence in places like Germany, Japan, etc., have helped keep things in that part of the world stable. We're a superpower and we have bases of operations in regions that could fall into unrest... but they don't because they know the US Military is right next door, and often 'bad guys' don't want to tussle with that. Our presence keeps peace intact, and that 'saves' us money in the long run.

So... generally speaking, wars are finite *events*, and they require no permanent financial commitment on the part of the U.S. government. The existence of a war in our history books does not permanently alter the foundations of our economy. Interestingly, history shows that when we *end* wars, our economy tends to grow by leaps and bounds for a decade or two afterwards, so while we of course should never fight a war as a means to stimulate our economy, since this post *is* about the money issues surrounding war... the final side-effect of war is significant economic stimulus and growth.

Government funded health care - and the money involved in that - is entirely different.

Catherine, you and I have something in common. Neither of us are big cell phone users. You have mentioned how little you use yours. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you, like me, probably do not have a 'cell phone plan'.

I am a Page Plus customer. With Page Plus, I never got a 'free phone' for signing a two year contract. Instead, I bought a decent used cell phone for very little money on eBay. I unlocked it and then activated it on PagePlus. Every four months, I add a $10 airtime card. That buys me 100 minutes of 'talk time'. For $30, I have one year of service and 300 minutes. If I decide not to buy a $10 airtime card, it's no big deal - I can get out of this cell phone 'relationship' by just not buying airtime. I have ZERO commitment to PagePlus.

Most of my friends, however, use Verizon. They got 'free' phones... but were those phones really free? Nope. By the time they got the premium phones for 'free' - and signed up for the REQUIRED data plans, etc. - they had locked themselves into two-year contracts, and if they want out early, they have to pony up hundreds of dollars to 'buy' those 'free' phones.

Their phone bills for four phones run around $150 / month or more. That comes to $1,800 / year, and they really can't get out of that until the contract is up.

My family's bill for four cell phones is $120 / year.... and I can get out of that ANY time I want.

And ya know what else is in play here? My friends have had those cell phone plans for 6 years or so. They have just become a part of their lives, and they can't envision NOT having them. They will tell you how tight things are financially for them, and say they 'can't afford' a lot of things that they actually *could* afford if they were not paying those cell phone bills.

What does this have to do with healthcare?

Just like locking oneself into a permanent 'cell phone' lifestyle permanently alters a family's budget for all future years, having the government fund health care will fundamentally alter our national budget.

On a national budgetary scale, a war is like paying the deductible after a car accident. It's painful to pay that money, but once the car is repaired, you don't owe anything more. It's a finite expense. You might even have to take out a loan to pay that deductible if you weren't financially prepared for it... but a year later, you would not still have a commitment to that 'historical event' - that accident that messed up the whole driver's side of your car.

But health care is like committing to a cell phone contract. Once you're locked in, you will owe month after month after month... for forever. Because you will begin to see it as a necessity. And you won't be able to envision scaling back and dropping the data plan. And as technology advances and they become even *more* capable, and therefore *more* services are available that you are going to feel like you *need* to have... well, you'll find yourself locking yourself into even MORE expensive contracts every two years.

It's perpetual. It will go on forever. It will get more expensive as the years go by. And if you really can't afford it *today*... is it a smart idea to lock yourself into that commitment for the REST of your future??? Because that's how it works. It becomes part of your set of baseline 'needs' - or at least you will begin to view it as a baseline need - and regardless of the cost, regardless of whether or not you can afford it, you will not be able to shake it's existence from your budget.

And THAT is how spending money on a war is different from committing to fund health care for eternity.

Wow,
are you familiar with the phrase "spitting in the wind"?

(pretty sure you are! LOL)

The healthcare system is broken.
And providing affordable healthcare to everyone should start with reigning in medical providers (some of you would be amazed at how provider offices "up code" just to get more money); Insurance companies (again, you'd be amazed at how many insurance companies will dink around w/ claims just in the hopes that the person will get tired --or die-- before the insurance company actually pays) and the Drug and Durable Medical Equipment companies (lots of upselling goes on...). And finally the larger hospital chains that have a monopoly in some areas (our local hospital has forced out or bought out any independent doctors, and clinics--basically they have gotten rid of any competition).

The Obama plan will only make it worse...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Yes. lol

However... in keeping with the health care theme...

I have a seriously painful tooth infection.

I am on antibiotics that give me a bit of a stomach ache, and narcotics that have my head swimming.

I can't sleep, and typing rambling responses that are pointless because they will achieve nothing is the best distraction I can come up with at almost 2:00 AM.

Both the antibiotic and the narcotic cost $5 (total of $10). We have health insurance through my husband's employer. They pay 60% of our premiums and we pay the rest. It's not cheap at all - several hundred dollars a month - and sadly, my family has some health issues that mean we usually meet our $4,500 family deductible every. single. year.

It includes a dental plan that pays a straight 80%, and there is some formula I don't understand that the pharmacist uses to figure out what we owe.

As pricey as it is - and as confusing as it is - I don't think it will get BETTER if the federal government gets involved.

Wow......as usual, I'm so glad that we are of the same mind on most every issue ever discussed here on MC because I would not, in a million years, desire to take you on in a debate. lol However, I am extremely thankful that I AM intelligent enough to know that!! ;0)

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Melissa

Wowitsdark, yes I totally agree with you about the war and the healthcare reform bill causing us all so much money and seriously do not want our country to sink deeper into a huge defiect. But the war as gone on so long and honestly Wow do you have any idea how long it will go on, can you kindly perhaps give me a time frame or year it will end, it is by far a huge mess and huge financial burden on our ecomony. Now with the healthcare reform, I basically just wish, doctors did not charge so much for their services and , also wish that prescriptions were not that much money. Rather wish lol it was like years ago when healthcare or going to the doctors the payments or dollar amounts were so low. It truly has gotten out of control. I laugh when my mom shows me the bill from the hospital where I was born , it was $15.00 a night and the total cost for her whole pregnancy and hospital stay and delivery was 750.00. it is crazy, perhaps it is just me personally who feels and wishes I could take care of everyone and feel so sorry for everyone. I worry about the elderly and the really sick or truly would benefit from the healthcare reform. I guess I wish there was a better answer I do not have all the answers. Yes for the cell phone I am part of a plan between me and my husband and our children, although they give money for their part for the payment, my usage is soooooo low, it is like I do not have the cell phone at all lol. I only use it for my kids, my husband and my parents and texting no way, never done it, never will. If I cannot take 2 minutes to call someone I will never understand the texting feature. Oh well again wish the war was over and wish we had a better way of helping all Americans who are in so need of immediate medical care and especially ones who depend on several prescriptions each day. Why can be not be like other countries who offer their citizens free medical care???????. Catherine

Catherine,

We are not currently in a war. We still have a strong presence overseas, and there are skirmishes that occur, but I do not believe it could really be said that a *war* is going on. Saddam was toppled and his army does not exist. There are factions that spring up and cause problems, and we are still there helping to keep those things at bay, but we are not actively involved in a military battle against another right now.

The Taliban and Al Qaeda still exist. Osama Bin Laden occasionally releases messages so we can presume he is still alive, and I think it is safe to assume that he still hates us. We're not involved in a traditional war with those groups, but we are in Afghanistan to keep them from enjoying a large scale resurgence. In my opinion, it would be disastrous if we pulled out and left them to themselves.

So when you say you want to see us end the war, I guess I don't quite know what you mean. It's not in our best interest to have all of our troops leave that region... but we are not currently invading anyone, advancing troops into other nations, or fighting battles against other armies. We have men and women there being watchdogs over situations that previously resulted in Al Qaeda having a foothold that resulted in 9/11. Sometimes those insurgent groups set off bombs, and sometimes our men and women are the victims. Obviously, that sucks. And sadly, the reality is that if they were not there doing what they are doing, there is a good chance the terrorist groups would have free reign to recruit and grow and figure out how to strike us again.

You asked how long it would last. Since there is not really an out and out 'war' going on right now, I can't quite answer that.



Regarding 'free' medical care in other countries....

Those 'free' phones in my cell phone analogy weren't really free. My friends who have 'free' phones are paying hundreds upon hundreds of dollars a year, supposedly for 'cell phone service'. I can get cell phone service for much, much cheaper - and that is because I didn't get a *free* phone.

In other words.... their free phones aren't free. The cost for the phone is hidden in the money they pay for services over a two year period.

And the 'free' health care given in other countries isn't free. They pay through the nose in taxes for it.

And it doesn't take much googling around to see that those nations with 'free' health care are experiencing economic meltdowns. Their leaders are frantically trying to figure out what they can cut... but like people with their cell bills who have become accustomed to unlimited texting, unlimited minutes, unlimited data, GPS apps and games and on and on and on... the people in those nations are angry at their leaders for even hinting that health care benefits might have to be scaled back because they are unaffordable... but there simply is not enough money to pay the bills.

Here is the opening paragraph from a piece in a Canadian newspaper just last week:

And think about Canada...

They don't have much at all in the way of a military. What would happen to Canada if some rogue nation from across the globe launched a long-range missile at Canada? NOTHING. Why? Because the U.S. military would intercept it. Canada stands protected because they are our neighbor and our ally. If our military did not exist, they would be forced to grow theirs significantly. But as things stand, because *we* have invested in *our* military, they don't need to spend billions of dollars on theirs, and they have more money available to fund their health care system...

And yet despite that fact - that they are not funding a military like we do - they are still taxed at a much, much higher rate than us and it *still* isn't enough to fund their free health care. They are facing a grave financial crisis and are scrambling to figure out what on earth to do about it.

It's not all a bed of roses just because it is 'free'. Nothing is really *free*.

The difference in the $750 hospital stay of the past is found in the medical advances we currently have... and they are pricey. We have discovered ways to test babies for all sorts of problems... so while you just went home with a baby 50 years ago, today you have the baby and then the baby undergoes a zillion routine tests to ensure he doesn't have this or that. People didn't used to sue doctors very often, so doctors didn't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on malpractice insurance (which of course has to come out of the money they 'earn' from delivering babies... thus their price has to go up). There was a time when mothers were simply put under sedation and woke up with a baby next to them - and the nurses and doctors administered the sedatives. Today we pay an MD whose specialty is anesthesia big big bucks to give us epidurals (and he, too, has expensive malpractice premiums to pay, so he has to charge an arm and a leg). We don't just get wheeled into a delivery room - we expect an LDR SUITE with whirlpool tub, 'family' space for our spouses to be able to stay with us, and on and on it goes.

So yes, it's much more than $750 because we all want our babies to have the newest, most cutting-edge screening, we want highly trained, infallible physicians at each hand and foot, and we want to reserve the right to sue them for several million if they make mistakes.

And all that can't be bought for $750. Science has advanced and our expectations have grown.

Not sure, but I can assume that even hiring a midwife and giving birth at home would cost more than $750.00.

On the subject of the "war" and healthcare....

Which one of us would trade place with Canada??? Not me. I just had a thought............since we are so close geographically, and Canada is far closer to socialism than the majority of US citizens would care to be, maybe we could make a deal with them. All Us citizens that are screaming for socialized medicine go ahead and move to Canada. They can send us all of their citizens that would like a different choice.


Obviously that's rhetorical, but you get what I'm saying.

I am not as eloquent as WOW.......maybe she will end up expanding! lol

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Melissa

To deddlastt I said I agreed with you about people who abuse any form of any type of assistance I thought I made that clear in other posts. I also mentioned the television program 16 and pregnant where so many of these girls only survive with some sort of public assistance or their parents which is wrong. I also said that the father of their unwanted pregnancies or irresponsible pregnancies if they must should work 3 jobs to support the mom and the life they brought into this world. Did you not read all that??/. Why must me and you always disagree. I mentioned the war for the simple fact, that like the healthcare reform has costed our country billions of dollars and of course so many sadly deaths and cripped lives. While I have no personal knowledge of being in a war, or even serving time, I get my information from my dad who did serve in the Korean War. He who will be 79 this February mentions it over and over like it was yesterday. Perhaps no change that I love my Daddy dearly and for him the war was his way out of a very truly tragic childhood and young teenage years. What he thought was going to get him away, only caused him further damage for his already emotional turmoil in his personal life. I can only assume that is why I take wars so much emotionally, nothing personal againist you or anyone else here, I am just againist all wars. And if you want to talk about money and the money the healthcare reform will cost all of us, then the war has to be mentioned especially for me..okay???. Thanks. Catherine

wowitsdark - FANTASTIC job comparing / explaining with your cell phone analogy!


On another note - remember when we (the mods) used to edit posts and remind members to stay on topic to the thread. If they wanted to go outside the "topic" to open a new thread? Sometimes I wish we still did things the "old way".

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First, I'm very sorry your father suffered from is experiences related to the Korean War. I don't think anyone wants veterans to suffer, but it's a reality that war forever changes the people involved. I can't imagine what it's like to have been in a situation where I had to kill or be killed. It's unthinkable to me, really - I just can't conceive of it.

But Catherine, I guess I cannot agree that it's 'okay' to always bring the cost of war up when discussing health care. There really is no direct connection between the two, and in my opinion, it stalls out any real serious discussion about the health care issue to always be injecting that unrelated topic into it.

Say we were going to discuss nutrition issues, and I had a personal beef with the existence of Styrofoam being used in public school concession stands because it is not biodegradable.

1. Nutrition has a connection to school lunchroom food.

2. School lunchrooms are often where concession stands are set up during ballgames.

3. Concession stands often make use of the cheapest products available to serve drinks in... and Styrofoam is usually cheapest.

So there's just a three-step link between "Nutrition" and "Styrofoam".

If you wanted to discuss nutrition, childhood obesity, and changes that need to be made in what is served to our public school children in their cafeterias, would it make sense for me to always be saying, "These are both issues that are involved in serving food to kids on school property, so I'm sorry but I have to bring up Styrofoam every time you mention nutrition because environmental friendliness is such an important issue to me and my family!"?

It really *wouldn't* make sense, and it keeps people from being able to focus on the real issue: Whether kids are getting nutrition when they eat school lunches.

Just because I have a personal mission related to something that has a shirttail relationship with an issue doesn't mean that it's helpful or polite of me to always use someone else's issue as an opportunity to push my barely-related agenda... no matter how passionately I feel about it.

That's what I see happening when a discussion of health care comes up, and the US Military somehow becomes the scapegoat. They are two unrelated topics. Yes, they both draw from our national budget. And yes, it is a legitimate thing to discuss whether or not we can afford this or that military conflict.

But government funded health care has it's own set of unique issues, not the least of which is the reality that going that route is a *permanent* commitment of our national budget - a very permanent commitment that will undoubtedly become the single largest expenditure in our spending pie graph.

I realize you dislike war, but sometimes they are inevitable. They have always happened, and they always will happen. Sometimes they are necessary to protect innocent people from evil people. They're horrible... but thankfully, they do not last forever. Check Wikipedia for a list of all the military conflicts the US has been involved in since the American Revolution. The list is long, and full of battles I'd never even heard of.... and except for the War on Terror, every last one of them had an end, and we no longer have a financial commitment to those conflicts.

But national health care is different. It won't end. Our population is growing and it is aging. Social Security is in serious, serious trouble right now. It was a blessing to those who received it in the *short* term (when seen in the scope of time in the history of our nation)... but there is no way it can work as a long term solution. Those who began that program did not accurately predict how our population would grow, how the average lifespan would lengthen, and the number of years we would have a financial commitment to fulfill to our retired American workers. Their inaccuracy has left us holding a small money bag and looking into the eyes of a large, large number of individuals who are entitled - by law - to more money than is *in* that bag *from* that bag. What are we going to do about that?

And won't national health care eventually find itself in the exact same quandary?

Be against war - that is fine. That's your right. But please do not muddy other important discussions by injecting it as a topic where it does not belong.

And Chelmo... thanks. :-) I'm really not anti-cell-phone-plan. I just have too many friends who want the newest and coolest phones just because they exist, and they lock themselves into data plans and things that they really do enjoy and really do make use of... but that they probably could not afford. Some of these friends get free or reduced lunches for their kids, etc., don't have emergency funds because, "We can't afford to put any back - every dollar we make is committed to something!"... and while I haven't seen their *entire* budget to know what they could cut back on, the one thing I *do* see are the cell phones they pull out. That makes cell phones an easy target... but probably there are lots of other expenditures like DVR's and gym memberships that I *don't* know about that would make equally good examples.

Poor cell plans, always getting the blame ... lol

Wow....what a great post!

Thank ya, tlb! :-)

I really don't have an answer to the health care situation. I just know I appreciate hearing possible solutions, that I get frustrated when I hear that people who retired from working receive big bonuses because their unions fought for them to get them... and realize that the money going to pay those bonuses is supposed to come from a well that is already dry.

It's not that I don't appreciate the work those people probably put into their jobs while they were in the workforce, and it's not that I don't wish them well or want them to have financial stability in their golden years.

I just think that we throw money at things willy-nilly, and that's got to stop.

My husband's employer contributes a small amount of matching money towards our retirement accounts when we make contributions ourselves. They won't fully match what we put in. I am self-employed, so there's nobody out there boosting the savings from my income in any way at all. If we want to retire even semi-comfortably, we have to take charge of that. It sometimes weighs heavy on my mind. Are we saving enough? Since the market is down, do we need to 'buy' because mutual funds are 'on sale' right now? But what if the market doesn't recover and China really does become *the* economy? What then???

They are not comfortable thoughts for me. They make me queasy... but I feel like I have a responsibility to confront them and learn about them and try my best to prayerfully make decisions that will ensure that we 'pay our way' from cradle to grave, and don't force *others* to have to pick up slack for us because they did their part and we didn't.

So when I read about our government being strong-armed into surprise payments in the amount of thousands of dollars going to people 'just because'... it bothers me. We're BORROWING money for crying out loud.

And I think that discussions about these line items to which we seem to make eternal commitments with our tax money are important discussions to have. Whether we make permanent commitments to funding national health care or permanent commitments to paying former workers large amounts of money from the day they retire until the day they die, all of these commitments simply can't be funded... so which ones *do* we commit to? We committed to Social Security sixty-ish years ago, and it worked okay for awhile, but now we've reached the apex and are on the downhill slide. We have a huge population of people ready to retire, and since there was never any 'lock box', the source of funds for *current* and *future* SS recipients is too skimpy... and yet because we promised people it would be there for them, they have not adequately prepared. So what are we going to do about that?

And can we learn something from this history? Is the lesson that it is important *not* to have our government make permanent financial commitments to individual citizens because we may end up leaving them high and dry, which seems infinitely unfair?

These discussions are very important, and they deserve to be considered.

And I don't think it is helpful to try to divert them into discussions about Bush and the War on Terror.

To wowitsdark, did not mean to start trouble but when you mentioned the healthcare reform which will cost us country and taxpayers money, I did not think bringing up the war m which has caused us so much money, was a problem. It is a huge issue for me perhaps on some personal levels. I have spoken my peace about it and do realize sadly it is apart of the past and present and future. You have made excellent valid points and I will end it here to simply say we must agree to disagree and move on with the original topic of discussion. Thanks. Catherine

Lucy, I just think it is acceptable to have an important discussion about a single issue. Trying to bring up very other loosely connected issue causes a distraction.

If you started a post about the war on terror, you should be able to do so without me trying to jump in and turn the conversation to a discussion about whether textbooks in the state of Texas will include evolution just because it is a topic I am interested in. I could make a connection somehow - I'm sure of it. But there's no reason to adulterate the discussion you wanted to start about the war with something that's really not about the war.

Wow, excellent posts as usual. Logical and thoughtful... I don't know what the answer is for healthcare reform either, but I know I haven't heard the right one yet.... Nothing frustrates me more than penalizing people for doing well by taking more of their hard-earned money to pay for people who don't make as much. How is that fair???? My sister won't work, but her kids currently have better (free) medical coverage than my own child does. Thank you, tax payers. I go to work every day, but my deductible was $6,000 for my family last year. My sister didn't pay a dime and has spent the last 5 days with her two kids at a huge local children's hospital to get them genetic testing to determine why my niece (who does drugs, I think) has headaches and occasionally passes out. Hmmmm, can't find anything wrong with her at the neurologist they went to, so let's keep looking - it's FREE, so why not????? Let's NOT look at her lifestyle and the fact that she stays out all night, has a HORRIBLE diet, drinks no water - only soft drinks, and weighs about 90 pounds. Ridiculous.

Anyway, this following piece irritates me....

FAQ: How Health Care Reform Will Affect You

How will the $940 billion price tag (over 10 years) be paid for?

Wealthier families will pay more in taxes. Starting in 2013, families with annual incomes above $250,000 (and individuals earning more than $200,000) would pay an additional 3.8% tax on investment income, and also face a higher Medicare payroll tax. Expensive, "Cadillac" insurance plans would draw a new tax starting in 2018. And the Medicare program would receive substantial cuts, including a $132 billion reduction in funding for Advantage plans run by private insurers.

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Kim

Compare the health plan to this: you have 30 neighbors with no food. You maybe can invite one or two to dinner every night but in order to feed all thirty of them every day you will go bankrupt.

Our tax dollars only provide so much and right now not even enough to keep up the important services we already have. How in the heck will we able to sustain the cost of caring for millions of people? And how is it right in any stretch of the word "right" that those who will not benefit in any way from "free" healthcare will sustain the burden of the cost?

Healthcare reform has already affected working people. The medical flex spending plan used to reimburse for OTC medical supplies but because of the new laws the plan changed on December 31 to now disallow those items without a prescription or a note from Dr. And this was for everyone so if you signed up in February and your contract goes from Feb - Feb you are still bound by the new rules as of 12.31.10.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

"You all may go on, I have stated my views and it will end here. "

Please refer to post #9 above.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

"You all may go on, I have stated my views and it will end here. "

Refer to Post #9 above.......again.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

"You all may go on, I have stated my views and it will end here. "

Refer to post #9 above.....perhaps the 3rd times the charm???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Aia so nice of you to return to the boards....not it was so nice when you were gone, really did not miss you and here you come back to this particular thread and have to post 3 posts in a row, concerning me and for what????????. I spoke my peace to Wowitsdark and not to you, should I do the same and copy your comments in three posts in a row, no never, get a life and move on. I stand firm war does no one good glad I got a chance to say it again, I have not forgotten , heck it has only been 10 years no problem, lets keep fighting silly me. Seeing that soldier yesterday on Oprah and what did war has done to him, I was in tears as everyone should be....its plain disgusting 10 years they do not last forever, well who here can tell me when it will end and how much more pain and suffering must our soldiers suffer and sacifice. If anyone did watch Oprah yesterday where she paid homage to our soldiers and the war and still think, we did the right thing, then I will shake my head in disbelief. I ended it, however Aia decided to start and I finished and will keep the fight against war and never stop and sadly I cannot believe more people are still for the war and still think it was the right choice. Catherine

Welcome back, Allinaugust! I am happy to see you back.

Back to topic - I am seriously opposed to the national health care plan. To me, it's a no-win.

(I just gave my honest opinion so that I wouldn't be accused of going off-topic. I really just wanted to welcome AIA back).

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

You have posted with intelligence and logic. However, such traits are useless when applied to that which contains neither.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.

E. Roosevelt

Suezz and you dear have good traits, just another trouble maker.However it is okay it is a free board and I can speak what I feel is so important, and it seems sadly how no one truly seems to care about the cost of the war, or the people affected by it, but we will keep talking about all the money the healthcare reform will cost us. No do not worry about lost of lives, worry more about money.Not only has this stupid war caused us useless billions of dollars, it has cost us so many innocent lives here and aboard. I assume I am the only one who truly cares about the war and all the money spent. But no rather I do not want to pay into the healthcare reform bill that will afford so many Americans basic healthcare and pray no one ever needs it. Catherine

Lucy, I respectfully ask that if you want to discuss the war in depth, you start a thread about it.

There are many people who care about the war. There are many people who care about the cost of the war.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Let me give you a personal example of how I have conducted myself.

When we first got marred 20+ years ago, our insurance (through my husband's work) covered three ER visits a year for our family. Fully. There was no deductible to meet, no copay to pay... we just got three straight-up visits at no cost to us.

And we used them. All three. I cut my hand late one night, and wasn't sure if I needed stitches or not so we went in to see. I didn't go in for the most minor things, but I sure didn't waste my $20 on a daytime doctor's visit copay if I could have a free ER visit.

At that time, we didn't have any drug benefits, though, so if the physician wrote me a prescription that was going to cost much to fill, I called the different pharmacies in town and went with the cheapest one... and sometimes decided I really didn't need that pain med after all if it was going to cost very much money.

Today our health plan is much, much different. $40 co-pays per visit, no ER visits - they just get added to the deductible, which is in the thousands. We do however have a drug benefit and don't pay over $30 for a script - and usually they are just $5 or $10 to have filled.

So guess what? If I feel really, really lousy (or if I am worried about one of my kids) I break down and pay the $40 co-pay. We have to be on death's door with an asthma attack before we visit the ER. However, I have a bottle of $500 anti-nausea medicine that I've never even opened in my cabinet that cost us $20.

When our Blue Cross statement came through and I saw that they paid the other $480 for that bottle I felt nauseous that we didn't even end up NEEDING it. I had NO CLUE how expensive it was because I never saw a bill! Our son had had surgery and had just been released after a week-long hospital stay, and my grandmother had died. We were going to have to make a trip two states away for the funeral, to a tiny town with no pharmacy (and no pharmacists who could fill a script from the doctor licensed in our home state, anyway)... so we filled every med the dr. prescribed, not knowing how much pain our son was going to be in.

Five.
Hundred.
Dollars.

Twenty pills. Sitting in my cabinet for 2 1/2 - 3 years, never touched. They are probably not even good anymore. What a waste.

You make statements like this:

Do you honestly think I don't care about people who are sick?? That is a terrible, evil, mean thing to say. You don't even know me, and you don't know the people you so often accuse of not caring about the sick as much as you do. You buy your Fiji water and sit in your home you claim is full of beautiful things you love to buy, and that is your right... but if you are so concerned about the sick and the poor, you could put your money where your mouth is and not wait for the government to take your money to help them - you could be doing it yourself, but instead you are buying things to enhance your own life. We spend our money on the things that truly MATTER the most to us, and if it really MATTERED to you, I think you would be doing it whether the government mandated that you fork over your Fiji water for them to give to others for their health care or not.

How dare you accuse people of not caring about those who need health care.

How dare you.

As insured people, we 'work our system', so to speak, to spend as little as we can. When the ER was the cheapest option, that's where we went. When drugs were spendy for us, we were wise shoppers. Now that we have flat sliding co-pays and where we fill our script is irrelevant, we go to the most convenient place regardless of the price to our insurance company. Between our contribution and what my husband's employer pays, our policy costs about $1,100 per month. Blue Cross STILL makes money on us, despite the fact that between our kids, we've had to pay for nine surgeries, two of them very, very major. We've had asthma hospitalizations and weekly allergy treatments... and still, we put in MORE money to be insured than is paid out on our behalf.

You'd think we were the ones being 'carried' by the rest of the insurance pool, but nope.

What on EARTH makes you think that people would be responsible, judicious users of FREE health care???? Especially given that you would be adding to the current pool a segment of our population who is poor because of their own irresponsible choices?

I'm not being judgmental or mean - I just mean that, for instance, take your average drug abuser. He can't hold down a job and never has insurance. Do I want him to be cold and die on the street corner? No, I don't. What I also don't think we can do is open the floodgates for him to have free access to the Emergency Room every single time he o.d.'s... or punches something while raging from cocaine use and needs stitches... and on and on.

It's not that I don't *care*. It's that I think we can't *afford* to open that door. If I, as a generally pretty responsible adult, have to arrange our health care visits around what will cause us to incur the smallest cost, why on earth do we think that suddenly offering it for *free* to everyone will make the roses grow redder and the sky be bluer???

The nations who have had free health care are now in CRISIS. Does that not mean anything to you? They are scrambling to find ways to survive financially and talking about bankruptcy. It simply didn't WORK. It's not because the right country hasn't tried it yet. It's because the inherent flaw is that people take full advantage of free resources offered to fill their needs.

It's the "full advantage" part that we simply cannot afford.

I realize that Obamacare is not quite 'free' and that some people are required to purchase health care (and others not - they'd rather pay the fine for not having it than pay to have it, because the fine is less expensive!). I get all that. I don't think it is even constitutional for the government to require individual citizens to purchase something, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Our insurance pays a portion of immunizations. When I took our kids in for their school physicals in August, the doctor recommended that we hold off on some of their shots because they were going to be phased in as 'covered' by the health care bill and we wouldn't even have a co-pay like Blue Cross would charge us.

That is CRAZY TALK!

WE HAVE NO MONEY!!! Why are they phasing in immunizations for people who already had coverage?!?!?!

So no... no, I am not for a national health care plan.

Thank you!! I poke around every once in a while and see what the "hot" talk is here on the boards. Good to see some of the familiar posters still posting in their make-sense logical way It can make for some good discussions.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I forgot to say HEY! to you, aia! :-) It IS good to see you back! Hope all is well in your neck of the woods!

Our insurance pays a portion of immunizations, as well. We do not have to pay what the insurance does not cover. That is the agreement with the doctors who take our insurance and our insurance. I recently found this out. A couple years ago DD needed some immunizations for school. The doctor I was going to did not give immunizations, and they referred me to the local Health Dept. I thought, huh????? I have insurance, why should I go to the HD??? Isn't that for people with no insurance or little coverage??? Well, off we went, and the shots were free. I later discovered this is funded thru the gov't to give the free immunizations. While I understand it is for the better of our society as a whole to get children immunized, it made no sense to me to use this option when I have Health Insurance that covers this I have since found a doctor who DOES give immunizations at their office, and my insurance pays for that.

I do feel for people without insurance, or people with pre-existing conditions who can't obtain insurance, but, I don't think laying that burden on the American tax payers is the option here. I feel, in general, there are FAR too many hand outs in this country. Just because it is offered does not mean a person should "take" it.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Thank you!! All is well here, just enjoying all these thoughtful, well researched, logical posts about the Health Care debate. A hot topic for sure.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yesterday at work we found out out insurance premiums are doubling. This is a direct result of the health care "reform". Anyone see any 100% increases in the price of anything else lately?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

To wowitsdark , heck we have no money, and we did not have the money for the war your beloved ex President Bush started and put our country in a huge financial hole, how do you not acknowledge that much, while again I am happy Obama is our president he is far from perfect and has made mistakes, but you will never admit Bush made any. I stand firm and perhaps alone in this particular thread we must talk war if you are soooooooo worried about more money being spent, to Wowitsdark, I am asking you personally it does not matter to you how much money as been spent on the war??????? that money does not concern you ???????, it has been 10 years your words so Wow another 10 years you say and how much money will that cost us Americans???????????. Remember when Clinton left we had a surplus but when Bush left , we were in a huge financial hole and that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The war and the healthcare reform belong together, why because we are using our money, our taxpayers money to fund both projects are we not?????. Or are we getting the money for the war from another source??????. Makes no sense. Catherine

Can we PLEASE for the love of God talk about the health care issue? It's very important to me and many others.

Should I start a new thread for it?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Anna, it is important to me as well and I started another thread. Catherine

With all due respect, Catherine, since you say it is important to you also, why did you not care to talk about it in this thread?

With all due respect wowitsdark I have talked about it over and over, I said I do not believe people care about whether other people have basic health coverage and you came back to me, how dare I how dare I not say we do not care???????Honestly wowitsdark it seems I am the only one here who is for the healthcare reform, am I the only one who cares, if we could spend billions of dollars to help another country why wowitsdark can be not take care of our own people??????? . Now does that make a little sense?????? Catherine

I care about whether others have health care, it just is not my responsibility, it is their own.
Cahterine


I care deeply about health care reform, I just disagree with the methods being used now.

We did not spend billions to help another country. We have spent billions protecting our own country and it's citizens.

You accuse others of not caring because they disagree with you. That is offensive.

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Melissa

I wish the people who voted for this health care would have read the bill first. I wish instead of them deciding them for us we could have read it and voted on it.

I am getting tired of seeing rates raise prices go up for necessities and yet wages go down. Is it possible that the powers that be want to make us all poor? And to what end?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Catherine, you have said that you are for it because you want everyone to have full access.

I would also like everyone to have a nice house with heat, air, and running water. I would like them to have cars that run, and for gasoline to be free.

In our world, really... those are all necessities as well.

Why do we not campaign for free and full access to those necessities? Why *just* health care?

I think we can all agree that we do not want others to suffer physically. That one is a no brainer.

But I would like you to outline to me what you think the outcome will be of this expanded care pool.

Please. I am serious. Please answer.

And for the record, these three points do not need to be made, because I think, like in a court of law, we can stipulate that you hold these beliefs:

1. You are for Obamacare.
2. You are against war.
3. You think the money spent on the war should have been spent on health care.

In all actuality, don't we ALL have access to health care already? I mean, really.....if I wanted to, couldn't I just go into a doctor's office and say I am "self pay"? I have seen this done. It is just a matter of wether or not a person has a somewhat guaranteed method of payment, right? Isn't that what insurance is? A pretty much guaranteed subsidy of your bill??

I know I'm going a bit off to the side of the screen so to speak, but, just writing down my rambling thoughts......

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yes, this is exactly what got me thinking on my train of thought below...... car repairs are expensive...... and a car is a necessity in today's world. How about food??? Food is expensive...... can we have some help with that??? Clothes.....

Health Care Reform is so complex I don't know that there will ever be an answer.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

To wowitsdark I am fighting a lossing battle here, and only here because in my heart I know how I feel and what is right and wrong. We will never agree your a right winged conservative republican and I am a left winged liberal democrat. Yes I believe the money should have been spend on healthcare for our country, who helps us??????. We entered into a war, where there was no proof of finding mass means of weapons, we put our American citizens at risk and have lost so many lifes. All that money billions spend on a war, which did not even attack us Osama Bin Laden did, served nothing. Let me ask you this Wowitsdark when do you see this war, well you do not call it a war, however we invaded their country, we are there , we have killed, we have been killed, that seems like a war to me. To you wow when will it end, how do you see it ending, at what cost??. How will it effect our country when we finally all retrive and leave, you think that torn ridden country will just pop right back to normal, never it was a mess , bombings and killings are happening all the time. In the end yes we did get rid of a really bad man Saddam Hussein and all his sons and hetchmen and followers... but sadly these middle eastern countries live like this for the most part....in time a new SADDAM will rise to power, then what. I am tired we will never agree we could go back and forth. I just want affordable healthcare for our citizens..sure like you said there are other things I want in life, I have to get those treasures myself. I know in the real world, all is not rosy, we all do not get what we want, but at least, we should have a roof over our heads, food in our stomachs and healthcare when we need it, if we become sick and disabled and the money that was spent and still being spent could have gone into that healthcare reform package.......Catherine

So, let me get this straight. We are technically not in a war. That is a fact. Ask any general he will tell you that. But because YOU Catherine, perceive it as a war.......that is what it is. A war. hhmm interesting.

This is what I believe. I am not as a human being entitled to anything. Life is what it is, everything else is gravy. I am not entitled to a roof over my head or food in my belly, and certainly not entitled to the best health care the world has to offer. I'm just not.

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Melissa

Sing it SISTER!!!! Now, if more people could wrap their minds around this we'd ALL be much better off. Back in the day (albeit the Pioneer Day) you were GIVEN nothing. You HAD to WORK for what you got.

I think today's society is so "entitle" minded..... I can't believe the amount of people who tell me about how they bought their child a car for their 16th b'day or when they started driving, as if it were a requirement, like providing food and shelter for their child. And the kids EXPECT it. Where does it end??? Actually, where does it start??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

What about this issue that I brought up, Lucy?

The war, which I know you do not like, is a finite event. In 100 years, nobody will even remember what it cost.

Instituting a *permanent* health care expenditure (bigger than we already have)... that's completely different.

Say - for the sake of argument - that we spent $5 trillion on the War on Terror. I have no clue what the current figure is - I'm just tossing that out there.

Are you saying you wish we had not gone to war and instead made a one time $5T health care 'fund' to spend on health care for those who don't have it?

No wow I am saying I wish we did not go to war, did not spend all that money and no I do not expect 5 trillions of dollars to be spend on healthcare. I have always said for basic healthcare and prescriptions for people who need their medicine to live each day......Omg I know we cannot save and help everyone but at least we should try , afterall yes we did enter a war to protect our country but we also have spend the money to protect another country. We need the money here for our citizens, for people who have spend their entire lifes here working hard to earn a living and when they become old and elderly should we not as citizens do the right thing by them and help them, when they helped to build this country???.Catherine

Catherine, we have that.

It is called Medicare, and pretty much all of America's senior citizens are eligible.

When you say "basic health care', what do you mean?

Say a 68 year old obese heavy smoker needs quadruple bypass surgery.

Is that 'basic health care', or do we let him die?

Yes I know about Medicare I have elderly parents, but not everyone and you know this is a true fact is qualified for Medicare... Now back to basic healthcare, that is what I would like , however of course if someone needed major surgery I would sincerely hope they would be able to obtain it and benefit from the operation and not die, dear God no way.. Back to Medicare, because my father when on to work for the city, when he retired his medical coverage always was GHI which is great and wonderful , yet between him and my mom they make too much money from their S>S and his pension, so they only receive medicade, which in some cases like them all is not covered and my dad has to pay a small part up front... Catherine

I believe to be eligible for Medicare you have to be over 65 and a US citizen, or have legally lived in the US for five straight years.

That's pretty much it.

Medicare is for the poor.

So only the poor get help, how about the middle class citizens who worked hard in this country, they do not deserve the same treatment ?????. Catherine

Catherine,

Medicare is health care for elderly people. Pretty much all elderly people qualify for it. If you are a US Citizen (or have lived here legally for five years) and are over the age of 65, YOU QUALIFY. Rich, poor, middle class... 65 is the magic age. It does not fully pay for everything, but does pay a large percentage... maybe 80%. I'm sure someone else will jump in with better info.

Medicaid is for the poor and is not based on age.

Middle class citizens will get Medicare when they are old.

If they are not old and they are working hard in this country, they should also work smart and make sure they have health care.

If we just willy-nilly give it away free to every middle class citizen who is working hard, I can pretty much guarantee that NO employers will offer health benefits to their employees. Why would they if the employees can get it free?

Okay wowitsdark I thought about it and agree with you on your last post, thanks. Catherine

Thanks - and that post truly is at the heart of my belief about national health care.

We can't *just* provide it to one economic sector, because then the whole sector right above them will stay *just* under their potential because they don't want to lose the benefits.

The way Obamacare was structured was going to result in, little by little, employers offering less and less. The liberal line was, "If you like your insurance you can KEEP it - this won't effect you!"

But that is not true. It absolutely will effect anyone and everyone. Why would any employer NOT phase out the coverage you 'like' if all the other companies are stopping offering it because it's not necessary because you can get it for free from the government?

They made the estimates about what it would cost based on how many were uninsured at that time, but did not account for the fact that their plan was going to result in more people being uninsured since their employers would just quit insuring them.

Say you were working with your kindergartners and realized five of the twenty kids never got their homework done. Just five. And you had enough time to just do it for them - after all, it was just five kids! And yes, they were hard workers in some other areas and it just didn't seem fair that these generally hard-working kids would get bad grades when it was within your ability to prevent it!

So you said, "Anybody who didn't get their homework done can drop it off in my office and I'll take care of doing it for you."

How many students do you think would be 'needing' you to do it the next day? Five? Or all twenty?

Do you have the personal 'time' resources to do it for all of them? I'm sure not... but once that door is open, everyone will avail themselves of it.

Hey wowitsdark I just went back and counted between the two heated posts here me and you are tied we wrote back and forth to each other 27 times omg and Aia and Mom were also tied 11 times back and forth in the 2 posts whew alot of typing I am tired, and you should be also.....Thanks for keeping it going and that nothing got nasty between us sincerely I mean that thanks. Catherine