I caught part of a radio talk show today on NPR discussing prison chaplains. I guess I never realized that the government is paying salaries for thousands of these people throughout the country. Why? What happened to keeping church and state separate? If individual churches want to provide this service then fine. But I'm not happy with my tax dollars going for this purpose.

I've also always thought it was wrong for there to be paid chaplains to come in and pray before the sessions of Congress start. But there aren't that many of them compared to the numbers serving the prisons. Something I found online, so who knows if it's true, says the salary is about $67500 per year at the federal level. Want to cut the budget? Here's a good place to start.

Wow! That's outrageous. I agree - cut that spending now!

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I had never heard of this. I thoroughly agree.

You know that's where God and Jesus hang out. Almost all prisoners "find" the Lord there.

Church and state are not separate. Many governmental meetings start with a prayer or blessing, with the clergy alternating. I think most likely not to be fair but for votes.

High schools still have Baccalaureate(sp?) prior to graduation and graduations have prayer, invocation, etc.

And yet we allow students to NOT salute the flag or say the pledge........

dl

And I disagree with it all except for saluting the flag and saying the Pledge of Allegiance. You can say the pledge and leave the under god part out, which is what I have done most of my life. But few of those things cost taxpayer money. The thousands of chaplains servicing prisons, their salaries have to amount to many many millions.

And most prisoners who find the lord, do so for protection. It's one method of being part of a gang that will provide some help, if and when. you run into trouble. As soon as they get out, most, if not all, leave the lord at the prison door. (Gee that would make a great song title. "Leave the Lord at the Prison Door). And also, just for food for thought, a great many that convert, (if only during their incarceration), become Muslim converts.

I just did some admittedly shaky math. I can not find, so far, stats on how many chaplains there are serving prisons in this country. I can't even find out how many prisons there are. But I think there are about 2M prisoners. I divided that by 100, an assumption that a chaplain might have a prison flock of about that many and came up with 20,000 chaplains. I took that 67,500 salary stat that I saw someplace else, rounded it up to 100,000 because of benefits etc. and multiplied that by the amount of chaplains and came up with a cost of 2 billion. Like I said, shaky math, but if I'm even close to right, we are beginning to talk about some real money for this being spent by taxpayers to support various religions.

I would be happy to have someone who is better perhaps at finding the right statistics and better at math come up with a number. But I'm betting that it will still be huge. If anyone can find some of the statistics that I have not found. please share your source.

Effort to eliminate prison chaplains met with criticism - Houston Chronicle

Might I suggest reading this article. This is the part I found really interesting:
Chaplains do more than contact Sunday morning services.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

First google listing: IACC, International Association of Christian Chaplains

Chaplain Trainee. Department of Justice Bureau of Prison Federal Prison System. USAJOBS Control No. IB5018 FO. Salary Range: $38,675 - 58,867.
Announcement Number: 02-NST-002. For additional information, contact: Chaplaincy Program Manager 202 514-9740. Or write: Federal Bureau of Prisons Chaplaincy Services 320 First Street NW, Rm. 514 Washington, DC 20534.

ALSO: Prison Chaplain Career Opportunities

It seems Prison Chaplains will join the Bureau's approximately 35,000 highly-motivated individuals working in 114 correctional institutions across the country.
Correctional Chaplains Educational Requirements:

Educationally the prison chaplain must have successfully completed an undergraduate degree from an accredited college or university.
In addition, have a Master of Divinity degree or the equivalent from an American Theological School (ATS) accredited residential seminary or school of theology.

Ecclesiastical Requirements for a Prison Chaplain Career:

Ordination or membership in an ecclesiastically recognized religious institute of vowed men or women;
Experience needed is at least 2 years of autonomous experience as a religious/spiritual leader in a parish or specialized ministry setting;
Necessary is a current ecclesiastical endorsement by the recognized endorsing body of one's faith tradition;
Demonstration of a willingness to provide and coordinate programs for inmates of all faiths;
Possess the necessary credentials and ability to provide worship services in his/her faith tradition.




I "think" the ratio would be far higher than 100 inmates per chaplain, but have no factual information.

dl

With all the government waste and corruption I find it very interesting and telling that many posters here think is a waste of money.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

There are a handful of posters on this thread, without counting 4, maybe 5 out of the bazillion mc membership. I don't see that as "many".

ill say I think a chaplain should be available but not on a low ratio. I have used them as liasons for legal documents to be signed and found them to be helpful. As mk stated, they are the ones who have to break the news/information about illness, death, etc from the outside world.

Simply, this could be one area up for cutbacks.

dl

I don't think prison chaplains should be given free reign...And as employees of the DoC/State Corrections, they do have to answer to the state and to the general population.

Someone gonna gripe about chaplains in the Military??
In essence, working in a correctional population is much like what our military has done in foreign countries (and continues to do).

Many police/sheriff's department's employee chaplains, as well.
I personally have seen a chaplain prevent a suicide, counsel an officer that had to fire his weapon, assist victims of crime to obtain different kinds of help. The Police department I worked for, actually required the chaplain to perform xx amount of hours of riding on patrol with an officer. Our chaplain was on a call-in/PRN basis. But, he was so awesome!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I found this link as well. The paragraph about prison chaplains means what? There are 35,000 chaplains or are they referring to 35,000 other employees? If there are 35,000 chaplains for 114 prisons, that's a lot of praying and paying. If they are talking about an unknown amount of chaplains, then there is no way to tell how many there are and how many they take care of. Also This is just a portion of the prisons in this country.

I'm not interested in what they do outside of promoting a religion. Most of what is listed can be done by non-religious personnel. If the Jews want a chaplain to minister to their people, let them provide that ministry. If the Christians sects want their people ministered to, let them proved that service. If they need counseling, hire a counselor for the prison population. Education, job counseling, how to live outside the walls, this all should be something handled by regular personnel that are paid for with our taxes.

Are you equating our military with criminals?

You have seen a chaplain prevent a suicide. So what? Someone else might have also been able to prevent that suicide, had there been a trained person there at the time. Or perhaps even an untrained person. Or it might have been a chaplain who didn't have a clue and the person might have gone ahead and done what was intended.

I think that if people are in stress, a call for help can be answered by someone other than a member of the clergy.

NPR. Yes their reporting is completely unbiased. Always.

I know many people who volunteer at prisons as a ministry and have personally seen the difference they make in people's lives. They don't get paid.

SO....go ahead, take those nasty religious chaplains out of prisons. Because ALL criminals are just faking it when they "find Jesus" right? How could they NOT be faking it?? It's really just a waste.

Good grief. There really is becoming zero tolerance for religion and it's frightening......unless of course your an agnostic.

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Melissa

If they want to volunteer that's fine. I just don't want my tax dollars going to the ones who are paid.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Speaking of intolerance. NPR? Compared to most other news outlets, they are relatively balanced. No one gets it right all the time. All I said was that I heard a small part of a discussion about prison chaplains and that I didn't realize that public money was being used. The conversation on the radio was not about that, it just happened to be mentioned and I picked up on it. The show was not biased, the small part I heard, so don't blame them for what I took from their show.

I don't know a single person who volunteers at a prison, but good for them. As long as they are volunteering and not using taxpayer money, they should go for it. I applaud them.

Again, speaking of intolerance for religion. You are joking aren't you? Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is using the written word. Most intolerance comes from religion.

Do you have a problem with someone being an atheist or agnostic? Christians often make it very clear that they have no tolerance for anyone that is not in lock step with them when it comes to faith or lack thereof. I would never have told anyone when I was young that I wasn't sure there was a god. I would have had the crap beat out of me by my lovely, most of the time, neighbors. It takes tremendous courage to be a child and speak out against the majority. As an adult it can still be difficult being an atheist, and to a lesser degree an agnostic. It is sort of like being gay. You are better off in the closet sometimes. I only discuss it here because no one knows me. Very few of my friends in my offline life know that I'm agnostic, although as I get older I tend to be like that little old lady who says what she wants to, when she wants to. I'm beginning to find age very liberating. I no longer fail to discuss because I'm afraid of the backlash, but simply because I don't want to deal with the backlash.

*sigh* No, I'm not equating the military to criminals. But, our military employs chaplains who promote religion. So, YOUR tax dollars are also paying for the chaplains in the military to promote religion....

Having seen a police chaplain at work--no, no one could have done what he did.

I think you're beating your chest and stomping your feet over something that you don't know anything about, don't understand, and have no interest in seeing an opposing opinion. So, we'll go with agreeing to disagree.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

My tax dollars are at work in the military and I have less of a problem with helping our soldiers than I do with the captive audiences that are found in prison who have committed crimes. The money should not be spent promoting religion in prisons, it should be spent on education, work skills, coping skills for life inside and outside. Teach a man a skill and perhaps he will use it to find a job, teach a man to pray and he will pray for someone to teach him a skill or go out and do a crime, which is his skill.

As for the police chaplain, I don't believe for a minute that there is someone, who is the only one, who can do a particular job. He probably is a fine man and did a great job, but that doesn't mean someone who was not religiously affiliated could not have done the job as well.

Churches are tax exempt. If they want to remain that way then they should offer their services for free and pay for it with their congregation donations. If you believe then put your money where your mouth is. Tax money should be used for other things.

And I am not stomping my feet, I never do that. I don't beat my chest, that hurts. What are your requirements for "understanding"? Agreeing with you? A degree in theology? As for having an interest in seeing an opposing opinion? So far I haven't seen one that makes any sense. As soon as I do, I'll let you know.

First, unless you were present, you really have no idea if a non-religious person could have done the job as well.

Second, many religions do volunteer their time--but there has to be someone to coordinate the volunteers.

Third, it boils down to unless you have actually witnessed what a chaplain does you do not have a frame of reference for the work they do, or their place in the prison system. See, what you don't know about me is that I have family that has (and still do) actually worked in a state DoC max. security prison. I have heard their stories. And I have a family member who served 4 years in prisons.
Chaplains often took on/take on the role of social worker--determining the social needs of prisoners for re-introduction into society (helping with coordinating skills training/education, providing counseling services, assisting in securing jobs, housing, etc. when an inmate is released). Attending church services in prison is NOT mandatory--they are no more captive to attend than military service members are!

I don't care if you agree or not. What I do care about is that you at least grasp the fact that chaplains in prison are NOT just preaching (to a captive audience), they do much more. You're argument of "well, there has to be someone else qualified...." and you just don't like the fact that your tax dollars are paying for a chaplain. Well, the tax dollars could be paying for a counselor, a coordinator for religion volunteers, someone to coordinate social services for release of a prisoner...We, the taxpayer, are actually getting more bang for the buck with chaplains.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I wouldn't say they are promoting religion at all.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Oh....and also, not all prisoners are allowed to attend gen-pop services. While it may seem hypocritical, prisoners who desire to receive religion (Catholics wanting communion for example, or confession) have the right to receive said rites. And, it is not feasible or practical or SAFE to send just anyone into a cell. Prison priests are given special training--furthermore: If an employee of the prison is killed in the line of duty, it falls under workers' compensation (exclusive remedy--look it up), if a volunteer priest/clergy is killed while volunteering, the surviving family can sue for damages (general liability).

To some extent employing a chaplain actually mitigates some monetary loss exposure.

They do not "push" or "promote" any particular religion.

Again, I will say that prison chaplains serve the same functions as military chaplains.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

And I don't want mine funding abortions.

I guess that makes us even.

while I don't agree with your stance on abortion--yeah, it's the same principle.

There is not one thing funded by the government that everyone agrees with 100%.

For what it is worth--I'm agnostic in my beliefs by and large. But, I can see beyond the whole "Prison Chaplain" label, and recognize that they do a lot more than "promote" religion!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I used to be a volunteer for the DOC (Oklahoma Dept. of Corrections) for program called Redemption Church, run by the United Methodist Church. I did it for 3-1/2 years. We serviced a Community Correctional Facility and a Halfway House. On Sunday afternoons the prisoners are brought from the prison to have a meal and church service. Then on Thursday nights they are brought to the church again and they participate in workshops such as parenting classes, drug and alcohol classes, and various other classes. The pastor is paid by the United Methodist Church, but all the other volunteers are not paid, including the counselors running groups, the other churchs that brought and provided the meals ALL donated time and food.

We have several Redemption Church's that are running in our state by the United Methodist Church, in different areas. In one of the lock-up prisons, the Pastor/volunteers go into the prison for the services. This prison is not run by the State it is a privatized prison run by GEO.

In some areas the United Methodist Church has half-way houses for the prisoners to live in after they get out, until they can get back on their feet, find work and get enough money for a place to live. The screening process is pretty strict.

I have seen many, many people benefit from "finding God" while in prison. Believe me I would much rather them find God than not, because they most likely will all get out eventually and I would rather have them "changed their ways" once they are out. I am sure people who don't find God change their ways too, I just don't know any of them. I do know some who went to prison don't know God and came out and went back to doing the same thing.

One of the biggest success stories I know personally: prisoner in for possession of stolen property, also a drug addict. Went to prison, found God, applied and was accepted to Redemption Church, went through the program, came out of prison. Got on his feet, started a plumbing business (he was a plumber by trade) it is now one of the biggest plumbing businesses in the area, another office in a town 50 miles away, nice big house, married with children, clean and sober. I knew this person before he went to prison, this is over a 10 year period. This is just one story, there are so many more!

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visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

Good point Marilyn, on the dangerous situations in prisons/Workmens Comp situation, etc. I have been in riot situations, working in juvenile treatment centers and juvenile detention centers and you cannot just send a "volunteer" in to deal with certain situations.

The other thing is several states still have the death penalty (like my state, Oklahoma) and if a prisoner were on death row, and right before being executed, I would think many would want to talk to a pastor. I wouldn't want to send a "volunteer" into death row, they would need someone trained to deal with this stuff.

When I used to investigate child abuse and neglect, if the person I was investigating was in city jail waiting trial (and I needed to talk to them some more) and they were suicidal, I would have to go into the cell block to talk to them, because they were not allowed to leave the cell. I would not want some "volunteer" that didn't know what they were doing or what to expect up in a jail cell block, it's just not safe.

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visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

How does that make us even?

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

And this is how is should be. I have no problem with volunteer services being offered to those who want them. More power to them, you and all who try to do good in the world.

You have attended every service in every prison? Amazing. Just their being there is a promotion of religion. "Hi. My name is Pastor Turner. I'm a member of the church of ???. I'm going to help you with your problems. See that you are taken care of." That is a promotion of religion. Subtle but there.

Hire social workers, therapists, mental health people, and do what needs to be done with them. Let the churches provide the spiritual when needed, on a volunteer basis.

I will state again. I don't care if there are religious people in prison, just as long as tax dollars don't pay for it. There should be freedom of religion for those who want it, and for the rest of us, freedom from religion, all without government backing or funding.

LoL...You'd rather pay more for social workers, therapist, mental health, etc.? You'd rather pay an enormous amount of money, should a volunteer be injured? I find that just ignorant on your part.

In fact I find your arguments to be extremely short-sighted and ill-informed. You've decided that the government is backing a particular religion. And there isn't anything anyone can say to change your mind. No matter what is said, you're gonna go back to your argument of "government shouldn't pay for religion". *shaking head*

Shades of gray, shades of gray...not everything is black or white.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I am just plain sick and tired of so many prisoners who seem to all of sudden find God, and have turned their bad ways into good ways...Personally I feel our prisoners get way too much freedom. I am not the perfect Catholic in many eyes, however I also do not commit murder and then all of sudden I find God. Hey if it brings them some comfort and perhaps that the rest of their lives they do not commit any more crimes, they I am all for it, but hearing so many prisoners all of sudden find God, I do not believe, where was God when you committed murder or the crime that put you behind bars.....I guess in a nutshell I am for the death penality, if you are found guilty by a jurors and took someone's life , then your life needs to be taken away. We already spend way too much money to house convicted felons already......Peace. Catherine

I disagree, Catherine. People are convicted of crimes punishable by death and later found to be innocent.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

No I've decided that there are things that are worth paying more for if it means taking religion out of the taxpayers pockets. And I'm not convinced that it would cost more.

If a volunteer is going into a prison they should be required to sign a waiver.

And I find your arguments short sighted and naive. When you combine government and religion, one of two things happens, either government starts telling religion what they can and can not do, (Russia before the break up), or religion starts telling us what we can and can not do, (do Iran, Iraq etc ring any bells?).

Naive I am not. Short-sighted I am not.

I have personal experience in this subject. I have seen chaplains who do so much more than push religion. But, you don't want to listen to that argument.

If you take chaplains out of prison, then you had better be prepared to take the chaplains out of the military. Chaplains in the military do the same thing as chaplains in prison. You can't pick and choose sometimes. The world is full of shades of gray--this is one of them.

oh, and waivers are great and marvelous--but, a lot of times they will not stand up in a civil court.

*shrug* you believe what you want to....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Jujubee I disagree with you, while I know for a fact there are some people who have been sent to jail and they were innocent, those numbers are low, compared to the big picture of how many are so truly guilty and sometimes literally get away with murder and should not be walking the streets... However all I know if it were one of my family members or dear friends my belief will always be a eye for a eye a tooth for a tooth.....However back to Op and topic at hand, if Religion does help some people and they can reform and become better citizens in our world then I am all for it, however not for murderers and child abusers sorry but that is just my personal view......peace....Catherine

Wow - so if you or a family member were incorrectly convicted of murder and given the death sentence, you'd say, "Oh well - that's the way it goes. At least all those real murderers didn't get away with it."

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

What if they are murderers and child abusers because of a mental illness? Or because they were under the influence of mind-altering substances?
What if they murdered someone to protect another? or self-defense?

Only God knows a person's heart. If someone truly believes in God, then they must also believe that a all a person has to do for forgiveness. And as a Christian, aren't you/we charged with providing witness of God's Grace and how to attain that Grace to every one?

see--while I don't subscribe to any particular religion, and I struggle with believing in God, I have had plenty of education of what is expected of a Christian. And actually, some of the Christian posters here, are not looking very Christ like in this discussion.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Marilyn in answer to some of your questions, as far as someone who committed murder and they did it under some mental issues, I would still have the same view, do you realize a life was taken, how many more excuses do we let slip by. As far as someone who killed someone is self defense , I should have spoken of that, of course I personally would feel, that person should not be murdered, if they killed someone who was trying to kill them, that is totally different. I am talking about someone who goes out and not only say robs the person of his or her money, but then decided it is not enough I am going to kill the person, yes then they deserve to have their life taken away......Again for me I feel that many prisoners all of sudden find God, and then they decide to turn their whole life around......For me this is just my personal view, I would not mind some money being spent, but I would not go overboard with it either........Peace. Catherine

To jujubee, if God forbid one of my family members were falsely mistaken as a murderer, and sent to death, that would be so terribly sad, that is why I said there are people whom are falsely accused of murder and sent to the death chamber.....However I also do stand firm and say if your found guilty of murder and you took a life, your life should be taken....Sorry op this got off topic, I will not discuss this issue anymore... I will simply end and say, if a person who is in jail and wants to receive and practice their religion they should be able too, but again I would not go overboard, remember some people who are in jail committed very serious and sad horrible crimes, when you made that decision, some of your rights need to be taken away, again my personal views......peace, Catherine