So....I've listened to the news and interviews with some of the protesters and I am still not really sure what the purpose is. What exactly are they hoping to change??

There is so much taxpayer money being spent on police, crews to clean up after them occasionally, and who knows what else......what good are they doing?? It's getting old.

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Melissa

I saw one of the protesters on tv this morning inciting his cohorts to "burn down the city". He needs to be arrested right now.

I don't know, but honestly... why are they protesting Wall Street?

I mean... yeah. There are greedy people there.

But there are certainly greedy people in government, as well.

Why are we not occupying Fannie and Freddie?

Here in Denver the OWS people had been camping out in the park by the capitol, similar to other cities around the country. They were asked to name someone to represent the group in communicating with city officials. They elected a three year old border collie to represent them.

Love this video....

Stephen Colbert Interviews Occupy Wall Street Protester, 'Ketchup' - New York Restaurants and Dining - Fork in the Road

I am watching CNN and am not surprised that they are covering it in a positive light....but really none of it makes any real sense.

So, from what I get, they want everyone to be paid the same for every job. I hear a lack of personal responsibility. We have personally made poor financial decisions....that is no one's fault but our own. We do not have college degrees, so supporting ourselves in this economy is difficult. Again, our choice.

"financial equality?" please, give me a break.

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Melissa

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who wasn't totally sure of what their exact purpose is........

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Nicole

Buckeyeatheart.........I don't think the protesters themselves are quite sure of what they are protesting. Or at the very least.....it makes no sense. And for any news source to be supporting, well, nothing, is so ridiculous, and for no other reason than they are not tea partyers. The coverage is so biased as to be silly.

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Melissa

I can only speak from my point of view and those I've spoken with that agree, at least in theory.

Look back to the 60s and before in this country. Was there ever a time when the people "at the top" for lack of a better term made billions a year while the people who worked for them were on Food Stamps and couldn't pay their rent?

I, and many others, are NOT against the idea of capitalism. These issues are fairness, some kind of equability. Should the CEO of McDonald's for example make let's say $23 million a year while the people without whom he would not have a single cent of profit suffer and have to choose between heat and food?

The banks: it used to be they PAID us for keeping our money. Now not only do they charge us but they trick consumers out of money by doing things like putting the check that the poor working person floated through before the direct deposit of the paycheck even in cases where the check came first simply to try and trick the consumer out of an overdraft fee.

The greed starts at the top. There are greedy people everywhere however some groups of them have more power over us on a daily basis.

People can't find full time work and they can't find second and third jobs as has been the case in the past.
This is due to moving jobs moving overseas, and the greed of "how can we make our profit margin even higher?"
Corporations don't pay their fair share of taxes and if it even comes up what will happen is they will raise the cost of their goods and services even further while cutting costs (=jobs).

The biggest thing I personally see besides greed is the change from going to have a gold standard to just printing out money willy nilly. That is hurting us to the very core of our country.

There is no desire for everyone to be paid the same for every job by most. Most of the people who support some sort of "revolution" like this are regular working people who are sick of the middle class getting squeezed out.
We are NOT lazy. We do NOT think everyone else owes us a living. We want a FAIR opportunity.

It's too bad the druggies, the chronically homeless (many of whom choose that lifestyle), the criminals, the loonies, and the lazies have hijacked this protest.

Remember this country was made on protesting.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

From my standpoint, the thing for those who espouse that view to do, Anna, would be to start from the bottom up themselves, create businesses, and pay people the way they believe people should be paid.

It's not as simple as saying that jobs are going overseas. Yes, jobs are going overseas... but those jobs are generally not high paying jobs. Well, union factory jobs were often high paying jobs... but we're at a point in history, globally, where goods produced in a factory, assembly line, that do not require a great deal of skill or education to produce can be obtained cheaply. Traditionally, the more difficult or specialized or unique the job / service one performed, the more one was likely to be compensated. When we went down a road where a solid segment of our population was guaranteed a high wage not based on the value of the goods they produced, on the high-dollar personnel overhead required to produce the item due to union requirements, things went askew.

I saw an interesting study the other day that I wish I could put my finger on. Basically, it showed that yes, the lowest wage tier was lower than the lowest tier used to be. However, if you examined people at an individual level, they generally did not STAY at that lowest tier. The people sitting there were at entry-level positions and they were not likely to remain at minimum wage. People generally WERE upwardly mobile, even though the bottom rung was lower. And in times past, it showed that the opposite was true - people tended to remain where they were economically for much longer periods of time.

Well just to speak from my own point of view, in my own community--it's very difficult to make a decent living right now. I have started from the bottom up believe me and so has my husband. We keep getting shoved back to the bottom. Every time I lose a job to outsourcing or for whatever reason, me, a woman who will be 50 next April and who has worked for the last 30 years, ends up working alongside people who are just entering the job market.

I am NOT lazy. I AM intelligent and motivated. I know many others like me. I am open to suggestions. If you or anyone else thinks I am doing something wrong or not doing enough for my sake and the sake of others in my shoes please tell us what to do.

I don't see you mentioning anything about the greed of the people at the top. Do you believe there is anything right about the guys at the top living like kings while those at the bottom have to struggle? By the bottom I mean at the bottom of the company or organization.

And to say to people like me "be lucky you have a job at all" is pure and utter BS. We live in the best country in the world in many ways and there should be work and financial security for those willing to work hard.
To say we are lucky to have a job at all is like telling the woman whose husband beats her violently twice a week she is lucky because the woman up the street gets beaten violently twice a day.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

But... I don't think what you want to see is something that can be 'forced' to exist. I think it's something that has to be created. I don't think new laws and more regulation is the answer. I think that in the long run, that will just make things worse.

One thing I can't help but be aware of, anna, is that you're from... is it Oregon? Some states - such as Texas - have weathered the financial downturn very well. It's states like California and Michigan, where people were making crazy amounts of money and paying crazy amounts for homes, etc., that have felt this recession the most... and Oregon, if I'm remembering correctly, had characteristics (politically, economically, etc.) similar to California.

Doesn't Oregon, for instances, require that all gas be pumped, and there can be no self-service gas stations? As a means to protect the 'industry' of gas pumping? I just googled to find out the average gas price in your state vs. mine, and you're paying $.50 more per gallon than I am.

I honestly could care less about the people at the top. I really couldn't. What they have doesn't effect what I have. Wealth is something that can be created. It's not as though there is a finite amount of money and the people at the top are hoarding it all and not letting it out into the economy.

I don't think you're lazy - not at all. I'm probably lazier than you are, based on the things you've mentioned that you do! :-) I just don't think that greed by a few is the cause of the economic woes many areas of the county are experiencing.

If people want to protest high prices, then they need to park their butts outside Apple... but for some reason, some companies seem to be 'darlings' of the crowd that claims they hate greed and capitalism. That's why I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

Here is what many do not understand....

Congress, in an effort to play social justice makers, forced banks to make a certain percentage of loans to people who really didn't qualify for them based on their income histories. CONGRESS did that. The banks had no choice but to make those loans. Then when people couldn't make the payments (duh!) the banks had to foreclose on them. The banks were seen as the bad guys... but banks are in business to make money, and no bank, left to their own devices, would've CHOSEN to loan so much money to people who did not have the capacity to repay it.

Our economy going belly up is tied to much more than the housing market. Much more. We're in a GLOBAL rough patch. The nations with which we do business who have safeguards in place like you are suggesting we should have are ALSO suffering terribly right now. All those 'protections' for their workers - the free health care, etc. - did not provide any sort of permanent economic stability. Google Greece + bankruptcy. Italy isn't doing so hot either. Nor is France.

I'm at work right now and don't have time to answer as I'd like to so I just want to say I am firmly against legislating these things, i.e. capping salaries, etc. I was hoping (although I'm cynical in many ways I'm still hopeful in others) that when the "powers that be" saw how unhappy and disillusioned people are they would maybe just maybe start doing the "right" thing on their own. Don't they recognize that happy employees bring more profitability into an organization than anything else?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

The thing is, there is no organization. They just seem like a bunch of whiners imo. What exactly are they hoping to accomplish? Where is causing these cities time and money going to get them? I saw one of their little tent cities in Richmond, it was not pretty.

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Melissa

I agree Melissa and everyone is for something different. I hate that it's an excuse for lazy people to complain. I hate being lumped in with druggies, lazy people, and miscreants.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

You hear comparisons between OWS and the Tea Party. The similarity is that they are both upset about how large sums of money have been handled. The difference is that the Tea Party is angry about government over-expenditures, and OWS is angry about what they perceive to be private sector excess.

I really don't think the 1% go to Wall Street every day. Bill Gates doesn't. Oprah doesn't. Steve Jobs didn't. Tom Cruise doesn't. I'm not sure where Bernie Madolph's office was (did I spell that right), but the system took care of him (too late, I know). Who did they think would change the entire compensation structure of their company because they were camping out and saying they were individuals who had no single concerted message other than that they were mad? That's not how you affect change.

I think the TP has waged a much more effective effort. They don't act like a bunch of miscreants, don't leave places a mess after they've been there, and don't cost city governments gazillions of dollars in police and clean-up money.... and they had a unified cause.

Well said Wow. As usual you are able to put into words what is in my head, but I have a hard time expressing it.

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Melissa

I can't wait to get home and post my response. It's not just against big business and money it's also against government corruption.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

It's to the point that I don't care what they are against or what they are for.......the point is, it's becoming a public nuisance and costing cities who knows how much to take care of the messes they create, whether that be arrests or cleaning up or whatever? Who does that serve?? noone.

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Melissa

Anna, I believe you when you say that - but I didn't hear the OWS folks saying they also wanted to occupy the WH or the steps of Congress. Unless I missed something, that crowd really was just trying to make their statement at the feet of the symbol of capitalism.

Okay, I have to ask - did anybody watch my Colbert link above? 'Cause... it's hysterical. :-)

I was looking for a "Like" button for this post and then remembered I was in the wrong place for that... lol.

Since I answered in the body of your post it told me I didn't have enough characters for a response. I'm exhausted today so I'll look it over tomorrow. I hope it makes sense and gives another point of view.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

But seriously.... not trying to be facetious here... *who* is doing the flaunting? I guess I just don't see it. There have always been people who had more, nicer.... pricier. Rolls Royces are not new. The Biltmore - the Vanderbilt family 'castle' - was certainly extravagant. Today, the ones that I SEE who have extreme amounts of money are people I mentioned - Bill Gates, Steve Jobs (RIP), Oprah, the pres. of G.E., Lady Gaga, celebrity after celebrity, Al Gore, the Obamas with their vacations to Hawaii and Martha's Vineyard and Vail (not to mention the huge entourage they took to Spain), George Soros,... the specific PEOPLE that I can think of who live expensive lifestyles in the public eye aren't the Wall Street folks - they're our 'celebrities'. I'm not saying Wall Street people don't have big money - but you mentioned that it's the flaunting of excess that bothers you, and when I see excess being flaunted... those are the things I think of.







I guess my response, then, would be.... don't work for someone you abhor. (figurative 'you', of course!). I know... jobs are not easy to come by. But not EVERY state in the nation is doing as poorly as some. Maybe it will take being willing to relocate. I'm not saying it's easy or that there aren't people who don't pay a fair wage, but honestly... I don't think that's anything new, and I don't think that's what the people at OWS were protesting. They were walking around with their iPhones tweeting right and left. Heck - an old friend of mine from childhood lives in NYC and he has been posting on FB repeatedly from his phone about what's going on... and I keep thinking, "Okay.... you chose to leave the middle of the country where the economy was relatively stable and you had a decent job in Dallas to go live in a city where rent is sky high and jobs are hard to come by. You bought a dog that you treat like royalty, getting him groomed whether he needs it or not, buying him sweaters, making sure he has proper dental care, spending a fortune to cart him to / from visits to your mom on an airplane...and you're protesting because your life is rough?"

Mind you - I don't care that he has a dog or that he chooses to live in NYC. I just find it hard to get all worked up with him when he had choices, and he chooses to embrace the one that will be the harder row to hoe and then protests that it is hard.

It was funny today - he posted something like, "Organize! Action!!" and another HS friend who didn't 'get' that it was an OWS battlecry replied with something like, "Ugh - I love to organize but I'm too good at it! I drive myself crazy cleaning out drawers and sometimes I just need to make myself STOP!" lol (paraphrased.... but basically what she said).


I guess what I don't get is, "What do they WANT?" If they got their way, what would it LOOK like?

From what I understand, people are frustrated with the seemingly disregard for one another....the fact that the rich are getting richer off the backs those who are getting poorer. Wages for the middle class buys so much less now than it did a few years ago, and even though all the money was given to the rich in the hopes of a "trickle down" theory, the jobs promised would happen just didn't materialize. Young people went to college, incurred debt on the promise that their education would pay off in having a job to pay those loans and now they find not only are there no jobs but there is no money or help to pay those debts. And the rich are just richer and the middle class is being squeezed. The jobs that were supposed to materialize never did......but the bonus's that the CEOs recieved for doing a good job was the money that they thought was supposed to create jobs for the people who were trying to have the American Dream and it didn't.

I am not saying the way they are going about this is correct....as a matter of fact, I believe their frustration is not allowing them to think clearly as to whom is to blame for this mess. I think that the politicians and the people who say "Well, if you are not rich or successful in America, you just aren't trying" are fueling the anger. BUT this country has a rich history of being able to make change happen by taking to the streets and exercising the freedom of speech and that is what they think is going to bring the changes they seek. I don't think that anyone really expects someone rich to hand them a chunk of change (well, maybe some of them do) but I get their frustration by the people who are ignoring the plight of those less fortunate. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The American dream of if you get an education and work hard you can become wealthy or even comfortable is not a reality for 99% of Americans. The 1% that it has worked for...good on them, but for everyone else...they can work hard, get an education but it just may not work out for them...odds are against it for the most part.

I don't think I would be OWS but I sure get why they are there. And coming from Saudi Arabia, I realize how lucky we are to be free to have people be able to OWS or anywhere else to make their statement to affect some change. I believe that the Tea Party and OWS are wanting the same thing....change in the way things are done....the difference is age and how they are trying to get change to happen in this country....where I feel the Tea Party is mostly older established mostly WASP (IMO) the OWS is mostly young people of all types who see their futures not working out no matter how hard they try.

Of course, this is what I see....I am sure I will get some flack for my decidedly liberal viewpoint but it is what it is. I have kids who have had to change their career plans to fit the economy and are not where they planned to be at this age. My son chose to stay a marine officer because there are no jobs and my other son incurred another 30,000 in student loans for his MBA to keep his job. It is frustrating for them....this economy. But they understand that it is what it is.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I think your last statement summed up my thoughts, usna - it is what it is.

I, too, think it's crazy for people to take ginormous bonuses if their companies aren't doing that well.

I really don't think that the sentiment 'the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer' really sums things up accurately, though. Most of the ones who were getting rich were first-time rich. They were not old money people just amassing more money. There were MORE wealthy people, and a good chunk of them were NEW wealthy people. That's a good thing.

And as to the poor getting poorer... the study I saw that actually analyzed WHO the poor were found that they were actually looking at a range, and yes, there were more people in that range, but, they didn't stay in that range long. It wasn't that generally speaking, you were looking at families going from $40K incomes to $20K incomes and stagnating there for years. It was that more people right out of college were at the $20K level than the $40K one... but that by and large, they didn't remain at the $20K level for long.

I think it's admirable that your sons are pragmatic enough to realize that in life, you have to be flexible and change your plans if it seems like it's necessary to remain competitive. I think EVERY generation has to weather some form of economic uncertainty, and it can be a great life lesson if people let it (like your sons did). It's not FUN... but it's also nothing new, and those who accept it for what it is seem to be the ones who move out of the rut the fastest.

Like your son did, I'm having to get a graduate degree. It's not a boatload of fun to go back to school just because you need that feather in your cap to do something you think you're capable of doing without the feather... but my gut tells me that in ten years, I'll be glad that life 'forced' me to get this degree. I'm really regretting, actually, that I didn't do it years ago.

From my perspective, the difference in the OWS crowd and the TP crowd is really maturity.... not the WASP / youth thing.... other than that yes, the TP is comprised of older people who have the wisdom to know how to be effective. If you look at their message, they're pretty focused. They care a lot about history, focus a lot on the constitution, and know specifically what things they think the government is doing that is an over-reach of power. They organized, mobilized, and worked to get people IN government who could work to reform it in the way they believed the Constitution demanded.

From my perspective, yes, it's ludicrous that companies like GE paid NO tax despite their huge profits when small, struggling companies were taxed oppressively. When companies like GE were given MONSTROUS amounts of money - OUR money - as part of a crazy stimulus bill so they could do some GREEN things. Hello - you are a WEALTHY company. If you believe in green, then DO green with all those profits you have! It's GREAT that you have a healthy bottom line.... but don't take OUR money to develop a commercial product that will benefit YOUR already healthy company!

Anyway... if the OWS crowd were to take a page from the TP book, I think they'd....

1) Assess WHO they are 'mad at'.
2) Determine if it's a problem based in illegality or just something that's annoying to them
3) If it's illegality, fight it on a legal front
4) If it's a matter of believing there are people acting unethically (but not illegally), get serious about finding a way to make it 'cool' to be the company that pays employees well... even if it means starting at the ground level yourself. Sure, that could take a LONG time... but what, in all honesty, did they think they think would CHANGE by their taking up residence in the streets like that?

I think the most empowering thing about being an American is that we have the freedom to be and do what we want to do. We may not have the talent... or the money.... but we have the freedom to develop the talent and find a way to get the money. The conservative in me is bothered by the fact that rather than embracing the freedom to make for themselves they way of life that they think is the 'right' way, they OWS folks are using their time to focus on what they think OTHERS are doing WRONG. I spent a fair amount of time talking to a Chinese immigrant friend the other day. They came to the states about ten years ago and opened a Chinese restaurant. It's been hard work. Very hard work. The parents have had very little opportunity to go to their daughter's activities at school through the years, etc.. But I have to admit... I got a little weepy hearing her talk about how proud she is of her daughter, and how she knows the sacrifices have been worth it. And the daughter is so, so proud of her parents. They've really instilled quite a work ethic in her. She's going places, that girl. They're too busy building their own lives to worry about what Wall Street isn't doing for them. They started with much less than most of us...but wow, do they appreciate the freedoms our country offers.

One thing about capitalism is precisely that some will be financially successful and others won't. Otherwise who would clean the toilets, pick up garbage, make the hamburgers, etc.
I don't know any other ways of explaining that there are plenty of people like me who might not have the talent, resources or know how to make their business but who are willing to work hard to make their lives and the world a better place and we are finding no opportunities to do so.
I don't know the answers to make things better. I just know that I am tired of being in this kind of middle place, holding pattern. I am well above an entry level life in my intelligence as well as my skills and experiences, however I am neither a doctor, lawyer, nor anything specific that would give me an edge.
There are lots of people like me that are frustrated. In a better economy I've done things like plan parties and had fun and made money doing so. Right now there is no market for a person like me to do this.
Yes living in Oregon is part of it. The housing prices are relatively low for the West Coast though and like many others who bought a home in 2005 we are basically underwater so there's no possibility of relocating.
I was hoping this protest would be something different than what it turned out to be. I was hoping it might open up some dialogue, might pave the way for some compromises.

I can see that is not going to happen. I'm so pissed out about the garbage and the mess and the trouble caused. Now it just makes everyone think that people who frustrated and unhappy are lazy, dirty, and unwilling to be the change in their own lives. That is so far from the truth of the people I know!

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Anna, I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think that of all the people who are frustrated. I just think that the kind of demonstration they planned was so poorly organized that it was bound to be fraught with fruitcakes! :-) There will always be a fringe element espousing any position, and often it's the people on the fringe who bother to make the most noise.

He says it better than I ever could:

Robert Reich (Occupiers Occupied: The Hijacking of the First Amendment)

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Thank you Jujubee!

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

In Boston anyway, a lot of the troublemakers haven't been the protesters themselves, but drug dealers who are trying to hide in the crowd.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

De nada! Glad you like it.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Wow I am curious how you feel about the fact that corporations now have the same rights as people. This concept disgusts me.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Even if this protest began with commendable goals, it has totally blown all of its credibility

Anna, there is so much more to it than that. Saying that corporations have the same rights as people is only partially true.

They can't vote, etc.

There are some ways in which they receive the same legal treatment as individuals do. There are as many or more ways in ways in which they do not.

I can't say that I agree or disagree with the way the laws are, because I don't know enough about it.

Are unions incorporated entities?

Unions are not incorporated entities.

Corporations can't vote, so instead, they buy politicians.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Unions are a completely different subject. They have their good and their bad. I'm not ready to get rid of them but like any other organization they have their share of problems.

I'm disturbed that corporations have the power to put people in office and to manipulate how our lives are run simply by virtue of having, like Jujubee said, buying politicians.

The people we vote for should have no other affiliations than to the people, as a whole, in their district.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.