I think this is pretty cool and amazing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/sc...body.html?_r=1

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Don't be silly. There is no such thing as evolution. They should just push those liars off the edge of the earth.

Sorry, my bad

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Jujubee I am curious as to your signature line. Where does a caring person or in this case nation draw the line? If one has a neighbor who is poor do you feed them one meal? Do you do it every night? Do you do it until you can't feed yourself anymore? Until they take some responsibility for themselves?
I don't think anyone (or at least I hope not) advocates letting people starve to death. I think a lot of people have the attitude that people need to help themselves. And if you go by literal interpretations Jesus could take a loaf and feed hundreds with it. On the other hand if I go buy a loaf it will only feed so many people.
We have programs in place to help people so much and for so long. Do we just allow people who are so inclined to take and take?
I am curious as to where you would draw the line. Do you allow the homeless to sleep in your yard or use your washer or your shower? If not does that mean you are selfish and don't care?
I ask you where I would not ask others because you are willing to discuss things.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Anna - I'll write an answer tomorrow. Tonight I have a killer headache

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Ok I hope you feel better!

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Thanks Anna. I feel better today!

The reason for my signature line is that I don't understand how the same people who quote the bible chapter and verse are frequently the same people who want to cut or eliminate social support programs. If you're born into poverty, it's a lot harder to dig yourself out than it is to sustain your lifestyle if you're born into the middle class.

Because I was born into the middle class, I got to go to an excellent public school. I never went hungry, so I could concentrate on my school work and get into a good college. My parents paid for my college tuition, so I could concentrate on my degree instead of trying to balance a job and school work (although I did get a job in the summers). I graduated from a great college, so I got a job with lots of benefits. My last employer required that all employees be graduates of a handful of "elite" colleges, so even if you were smart, but not wealthy enough to go to a listed school, you couldn't get a job there. (I thought that was really stupid. At my first professional job, there was a guy who started off in the shipping department because he couldn't afford to go to college. The company saw his potential and provided a college education. To make a long story short, he became a big wig at Microsoft and is now a retired multimillionaire. All because a socially minded company was willing to give him a chance. However, if he hadn't had the fortune to have a lot of brains, or he hadn't found that particular company, the story would be have been much different.)

I consider what my situation would be if I lived at a time when a lot of people's livelihood was dependent on physical abilities. I was born with a syndrome that results in crappy, disfigured bones. I'm not very coordinated and if I had to live off my physical abilities, I'd be destitute. Not everyone is born with the smarts to get a high-paying (or even moderately paying) job, no matter how hard they try. Just as I'd never be able to be a professional athlete, or even a decent physical laborer no matter how hard I might try.

If we want to live in a civilized society, we need to be willing to help those less fortunate than ourselves, as a society. As you pointed out, giving one person a loaf of bread isn't going to make things better.

Will some people take advantage of the system? Sure. But I'd much rather risk a few jerks taking advantage of the system, than risk letting people in need suffer.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Couponsrock - why did you delete your post?

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

It was too far off the main topic I thought.

Okay I get that but where do we draw the line and how long should a person be allowed to collect benefits if they are capable of working? I certainly don't want people to starve, children to live in unsafe conditions or go without what they need.
How many people are second, third generation welfare recipients?
If someone has a condition, physical or mental, we should, as a society take care of them. However I see things that aren't even abuse but for example, I know someone who is morbidly obese and has a low level developmental disability. This person functions at about the level of a 20 yr old although the person is much older than I am. This person is capable of working but for reasons of obesity can't stand or sit or do this or that. This person has the option of all kinds of services, from Weight Watchers to gastric bypass but would rather eat and eat until they burst.
This person receives a monthly check, food stamps, free medical care, a rent subsidized apartment in a brand new complex. They are eligible for all kinds of other services by virtue of being a food stamp recipient.
This person's total monthly income, including rent benefits and not even including all the medical costs due to their being obese (doctor visits on a weekly basis due to complications of morbid obesity) is almost twice what my husband and I earn by working.
This is just an example and I know personally of many in similar situations in my sparsely populated county.
My purpose of this story is to ask "where do we draw the line?" Why is it okay for this person to live a lifestyle far above what the rest of us who work hard live? Shouldn't some timeline be implemented?
Shouldn't someone say "being morbidly obese (or lazy or on drugs)is a choice and if you choose it you have to suffer the consequences?"
I am all for helping people and I have done so in a personal way for most of my life. But if a crackhead or a tweeker lived on my street and was going hungry I wouldn't go without meals to feed them. That is essentially what is happening.
It doesn't come down to a matter of cutting off social services for everyone it comes down to making people act responsibly. There is a whole group of people who take and take meanwhile services are being cut, services that are supposed to be paid for with tax dollars such as libraries closing, police services being cut, etc.
And to me it's not even so much about the money as it is making people take some responsibility for their lives.
So where do you draw the line?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Well, for starters, I'd adjust the tax system so that people with 200 million in assets aren't paying at a lower rate than the middle class.

I think life is too complex to reduce the problem of poverty to being a matter of someone not taking responsibility for their lives. Sure, some people are lazy and swindlers. But again, I'd rather have a few people take advantage of the system than have honest people who are down and out go without food, shelter, and medical care.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I agree - to an extent. This is where the "agreeable middle" should come in.

I personally think those that are honest and just down and out WILL do their best to comply with a deadline, like Anna was suggesting. Those are the people that appreciate the systems in place to help them in time of need. They are more than willing to do their part in getting back on their feet. This of course, excludes the disabled.

This country seems to swing from one side of an issue to the other, ignoring the middle ground. From unions to government programs, so much is out of control, never having stopped at the "mutual benefit" arena.

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Sounds to me like Big Bertha here's got it figured out and we are stupid AZZEZ trying to work for peanuts just so we can pay our monthly bills! UGH! She has figured out the system...why would she try to lose weight and get off welfare, so she can get her a minimum wage job? That would be totally stupid! What should happen is someone like this should be committed to a ward somewhere that she can be taken care of and living in a hospital bed situation...sounds like then she would have some incentive to better herself...but as it is, there is no reason for her to get off welfare! She'd be an idiot to do that.

I have heard stories of people having 6 or 8 kids and making about $100,000 a year on welfare. This needs to stop, if a person can NOT take care of their kids they should be removed from that person and given up for adoption, I bet then these women would think twice about getting themselves knocked up! But as it is now, it's a way of life...if you ask me, they are the smart ones and us dumb schmucks working our 60 hours a week jobs are total idiots!

Unless you're her physician, I don't think you're in a position to determine whether she's disabled or not.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I have heard stories of people being picked by UFO's and probed, but that doesn't mean it happened.

Every single physician this person has seen for the last at least 15 years has told her that her medical "issues" are ALL due to her obesity but she thinks they are making excuses to not treat her.
I know how she eats her lack of movement and I hear the excuses over and over. Pain here, stomach ache there. She keeps trying procedures and changing doctors and each time they tell her to lose weight, to skip the cream and mayonnaise and extra cheese and processed foods and soda. They tell her to walk and just to stand up when watching tv to walk in place to move her arms around. She refuses to do anything because she believes the doctors don't want to spend the time to figure out what's wrong with her.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I find it hard to imagine how you have all this inside information. But if you have all the facts, it sounds to me that in your acquaintances case, someone is letting her though the system. Doesn't she have to have a doctor confirm that she has a disability in order to receive benefits?

Even assuming your acquaintance is a bad apple. I still hold the stance that I'd rather let a few bad apples through the system, than see needy people go without. A completely jerk-proof system would cost more than the price of some bad apples.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Sounds like she is seeing the wrong kind of doctor. A mental health adviser might be a better choice.

This is just one story. There are many more like it. The reason it continues is because it creates jobs and funnels money though places it wouldn't go to otherwise. This situation creates jobs for a case manager, caregivers, low income apartment complexes, medical offices, etc. There are many grocery stores that take in a big proportion of their money in food stamps and that creates jobs because people wouldn't have that money to spend, theoretically. In my community alone there are hundreds of people receiving these benefits. Some of them truly need this help however many more than most people imagine don't really. In social services we recently have noticed a trend of people who were just surviving, either due to low intellect, anxiety, or other borderline issues and have now turned to SSI.
All you really need is a good lawyer and a medical history of something that could be construed as a "disability". There is even a man who somehow convinced the courts that because he is morally against the corporate way of life in our society he doesn't fit in and can't make a living. It's called some kind of anxiety disorder.

I don't think it benefits society in any way to support these people.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Then the eligibility requirements need to change. If you have the inside track, you're in a position to be a champion for change.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

That would be a good suggestion however I have discovered if you work for any type of government agency or entity and you would like to keep your job it's better to go with the flow. Trying to get them to change anything at all even if you can prove in 3.2 seconds it would save taxpayers millions of dollars a month is not a good idea. They literally laugh in your face, tell you the govt is not going to change the way they do things because you think it's a good idea and to be quiet and be happy you have a job.
When I worked for the Census Bureau for 5 and a half years was a good example of that. I've worked for the state, county and feds now and believe me unless you're up at the top (then you get accolades for anything you do) it's best to just go about your job and do small things that go unnoticed to try and make changes.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I have to jump in...........very interesting topic. If anyone doesn't know what section 8 federal housing is, needs to look it up. I know 2 people with section 8 housing. They told me "once you are on, you are on for good. They never check you again." These people never have to take a drug test, or prove that they are looking for work like those on unemployment. Many of those who qualified were women with children, who later moved a man in with them. Section 8 operates as this: the government pays directly to the landlord.......free or very little out of pocket expense to the receipient. In this economy many apartment complexes have gone to section 8 as they have guaranteed income directly from the government. NOW, that said, I too believe in a helping hand in hard times, BUT, FOREVER, without any qualifying determinations????? I live next to section 8 housing. I can tell you that 90% of the cars in that complex are newer than my 8 year old vehicle.....yes, I actually counted. Help in need? Yes absolutely! Handout forever??? ABSOLUTELY NOT.......our country simply cannot afford this abuse.....just my humble opinion

YEP!!!!! I live next to an apartment that's section 8...it's mowed more in the summer than I mow my own yard. It's kept very neat and clean...not any slumminess at all! These people have much nicer cars than we do! AND this is right in the middle of a nice middle class neighborhood...it is not in some WARD area either! OH and you should see how nice their clothes are too! All the children wear the latest trendy outfits and shoes...

But of course! If you get everything paid for, why not dress your kid like Suri Cruise, right?

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So you would prefer for it to look messy, dirty, and at least a little "slummy"

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

There will always be cheats. The best we can do is try to weed them out. It seems easy to find them, according to several of you with first hand experience. What happens when you report them? If nothing is done after you report them, then we need to change things, but that doesn't mean we need to do away with helping people.

And how did we get from yeast experiments to welfare?

No we don't need to do away with it we just need to do it in a better way so that people don't continue to take advantage for their whole lives and so that people who fall through the cracks get some of the help instead of it going to greedy cheats.

I went off topic because I was asking Jujubee about her signature line. Mea culpa!

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I find myself going off topic all the time. I guess my thinking process is not in a straight line. So I found it amusing reading all the recent posts and trying to remember what the original subject was.

THAT was NOT my point....just love the way words get all twisted....

I didn't twist your words, I asked a question. You appeared to be complaining that the property was "neat, clean, and not slummy at all."

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

NO I'm complaining that people on welfare live in some freakin' fantastic homes for almost free...plus I'm complaining that they'd put a frickin' section 8 housing complex right in the middle of a nice single family subdivision. I am not on section 8 nor have I ever been nor will I ever be! Everyone was furious when they put these apartments here tearing down a forest of trees! UGH! I'm sure someone's pockets were greased when that happened because this area is not zoned for multi family dwellings!

Ah, I see. They're bringing down your property values - NIMBY. Yet, if it looked "slummy" - what would that do to property values? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I have to agree with you on this. I would think it's better to keep it up nicely and that even provides at least one job so what's the problem? If the crime rate went up that's one thing. But to complain because it's well kept that just boggles the mind.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Well obviously this is going right over your head and I don't know how else to explain what I'm talking about other than the GD apartments should NOT be in a zoned single family area. It is not zoned for multifamily housing. NO I'm certainly not saying I want the apartments next to me to be slummy...that's just stupid talkin'!

If the area is not zoned for that kind of property then it is against the law.
In addition, maybe you could explain your points clearly and intelligently so that your POV could be understood. Throwing insults at those who do not understand what you are saying
isn't helping the discussion

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.

E. Roosevelt

I don't know about your town, but in many places section 8 housing is exempt from such zoning laws. Otherwise, people would make it impossible to build section 8 housing anywhere in their town.

And, you can roll your eyes all you want, but clearly you were complaining that people who live in section 8 housing ought to live in a "slummy" area - not your backyard. Yet, if it wasn't kept up you'd be complaining about the "slum" next door. Like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.