and my first thought that comes to mind is thank goodness for birth control, because *most* of us would've snapped around the 8th!

FOXNews.com - Arkansas Mom Prepares for Birth of 17th Child - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

WoW!!!! I've watched their story on TLC, very interesting. I really don't know how they do it.
They appear to have it all together and with the older kids they have plenty of help. I have my own opinions about having that many children but it's their lives and as long as they're taking care of all the kids they're having...more power to them!

the story says they have 2 sets of twins, and then at the bottom they list the names, but only name 15 of the children...there's one missing...and they list 1 set of twins.

He (father) was a state representative, so, they aren't totally broke (though with that many kids I would think they are close. lol)

I also have my own opinion on why people would feel the need to have that many children, but I will just sit on my hands.

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SPJRNTGADL!

Wow-- 17 huh? I just don't get it. There's no way I would want to have 16 brothers and sisters. How can you give each child any individual time with that many?? Maybe it's just me. ??

Holly

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Forgiveness is love in its most noble form. -Anonymous

just think of how many birthday presents you will have to buy when each of those kids has their own kids. LOL

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SPJRNTGADL!

I think it's great if thats what they want.

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Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. - Will Rogers

I did read awhile back that Michelle Duggar used BC pills after the birth of their first child, plannning as many of us do to have children a couple of years apart. She had a miscarriage, and the couple felt that having used the BC pills caused or was a contributing cause to the miscarriage. That is when they decided to "leave it in God's hands".

From what I understand, they earned a pretty good chunk of change in real estate early in their marriage, have been financially conservative, and Jim-Bob has continued to earn a good income. While I think their children's style of hair/dress etc. is odd by today's standards, so what? They seem to be raising respectful, law-abiding children and the government isn't paying for any of their food or medical care. Not my cup of tea FOR SURE, but they have the right to live their lives in that manner.

I have to agree with the above poster - I have my own opinion and will just sit on my hands also!

Am I missing something?
Why are some of you so reluctant to express your opinions on why they have so many kids?
I do think the whole family seems a bit "odd", but like was already said, they do take care of them so it's up to them.

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Square dancing is friendship set to music!

I'm curious as to your opinions too.

I stopped at 2... Had miscarriages (3) and wasn't doing birth control so... Hmmm...

I went to school with some kids from a family with 17 kids. The olds was my age. (I'm 36 now)

She was the most amazing woman. Totally organized, always calm and had it all together. They lived in a simple 3 bedroom ranch style home with a full basement. The youngest slept upstairs in the bedrooms up there and there rest were divide downstairs on bunk beds. Boys on one end, girls on the other, with rack after rack of clothes seperating them. She would go to garage sales for clothes, and when she'd pull up, they just start bagging up all the clothes because they knew she had someone who would fit in them.

The last time I talked to one of them, he said they had 26 grandkids. Greg, the one I talked to had 5 kids and the only reason they were stopping was because his wife had some problems and had to have her uterus removed.

Well, where I live natural family planning is a BIG DEAL. I live in a very Catholic community. If you take the birth control pill, they look down on you. I work with a lady who teaches Natural Family Planning and then another lady (part time person) here is pregnant with her 8th kid. The lady pregnant with her 8th has already told others in the office that they are broke and her kids are on free lunches at school but she is letting God plan her family. Which means I am paying for her kids to eat through my taxes. In my opinion, you should only have as many kids as you can afford. And no, I have no children by choice and my husband is Catholic.

Reading that sort of makes my uterus hurt. I don't have kids because I'm not yet in a position where I think it's financially wise. kathydanford, I'm not going to argue with you on this one!

Mine too you would think it would have fell out by now!!!

I do have a family in my area with this many kids every time I see them they have a new baby.

Why do people have 17 I have no clue I am loosing my mind at 3 I think 4 would have been ok but more than that I wouldnt have been able to handle alone. My grandma bless her heart would say anymore than 2 & ya got your hands full she only had two but she came from a family of 6 kids.

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mom of 3 greats girls

My brother and his wife have 6 children and she was talking about having 10. The oldest just turned 11 and the youngest is 6 months old. They drive a big old church van, which we call the magic school bus! But I know I could not do it, I have a hard time keeping track of my 3 kids and everything they do! Plus my SIL homeschools her children, which I know I just couldn't do.

if they can take care of them which this family does I say have as many as you want! on the other hand if you are on aid and continue to have more!!!!! thats on my dollar and I have a problem with that

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Always be a first rate version of your self instead of a second rate version of someone else.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds.

We have three girls (13 almost 5 and 9 1/2 months). We struggled w/infertility for almost five years with #2 and went about 3 years of using nothing before we got pregnant w/number 3. We are no longer using any birth control. We stopped using it when she was three months. We've decided to let it in God's hands. If we are blessed with #4 it will be in God's time as I found out during my years of infertility treatments that never worked. HOWEVER, if there is a #4, we WILL be using something at that point. Hubby's limit is four, mine is five. Plus, I don't want to be having kids after I'm 35. I'd like to have a few years to enjoy my hubby without kids.

It can't be good on her body to have THAT many kids. I think they depend on the older ones way too much to help out with the other kids. I guess as long as they take NO help from the government for any of their kids, who's it hurting? Not me. Do I think they're crazy? Heck yeah! Would I have that many kids? Umm, no.

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Amy
Mom to Lauren, Eryn, Naysa
and announcing......
Gavin Michael Chase, 9 lbs 10 ozs
and 21 3/4 inches long on 10/13/09!

Joshua is the oldest, not what I had put. John David and Jana are the twins.

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I've never lied to you. I've always told you some version the of truth.

When I had my second son, my hospital roommate had recently delivered her 12th child. While I had the typical insurance-provided "drive-through" pregnancy (discharge within 24 hours), because she was on public assistance, she was there for two days when I arrived and there when I left. No complications were noted, just that her free coverage was better than what I pay for. Still makes me fume today...13 years later. Yeah, I know, I should get over it.

cj/

I know this sounds incredibly catty and negative, but the first thing I thought of when I read the title is "Oh boy - more money from the Discovery Channel for that family", as I am sure there will be another documentary done on them, with the pending birth of another child.

Oh my!! I have 4 and now that the older 3 are teens I sit back and think about how exhausted I was all the time. If they can do it, do a good job and enjoy them, more power to them. I also agree, if they do it without public assistance, who am I to say anything to them?

I am Catholic and had my 1st 13 months after we married. During church annually, there is the sermon about "Be Fruitful and Multiply"-- well I had 3 in 2 1/2 years and I told the Priest with the 3rd one that IF I got pregnant 1 more time, I was giving it to the POPE along with a hefty bill! The next year he kept looking at me and smiling quite a bit. I guess I made him nervous!!

I was on birth control each time and found out that the pill and sponges didn't work with me. My uterus was falling out after 4 and I decided to remove it before I stepped on it!!

ugh. I would HATE having that many kids. I don't have the patience, time or desire. I'm fine w/ my 3. Plus, that assures I can spend time w/ each whenever I want.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I love children and always have. I have five adopted, 2 step children and am raising my granddaughter. If we were asked to adopt again, I would. My dh and I have discussed a "retirement plan" of opening our home to teen age foster daughters. Teenagers are hard to place but we would only take girls as our severly disabled daughter will always be home with us. I don't personally want 17 children, but if they do, more power to them!

It's odd but as an outsider looking in, I really can't complain about their arrangement. It appears these people are self sufficient, the kids are all wanted and (I'm assuming) loved. They seem like they take care of themselves. They are not dependent on others for the kids' care.

On a personal level I could not do it. But just because I could not do it for me does not make it wrong for them.

At the rate they are going, I hope there are enough "J" names to go around, lol

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

Personally, I think it's selfish to have that many kids BUT as long as they can take care of them financially and emotionally, that's their business. Now, if a family wants 17 kids on MY DIME because they are on assitance, well, that's MY business and I don't like it. It is also my personal opinion that with that many kids, the older siblings end up partially (or fully) raising the younger ones and I don't think that's right. Helping out is okay but if a parent can't be a parent then they should stop having kids. I know some people who raised their siblings and now don't want any kids of their own because *they are done raising kids*. I think that's sad

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

thanks, this is what I sat on my hands for...especially the older ones that would be raising the younger ones (I have someone in my family like that...I don't think that's right either)

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SPJRNTGADL!

I agree. I think that is very important for kids to be kids.

LOL If they had to depend on his state salary they could be on welfare State reps in Arkansas make less than $15,000 a year. Actually they are more than well off. He is a real estate broker and owns most of the commercial property in that area. That being said I would think they could get some household help and take some of the load off the older girls. The 15 year old prepares lunch for 17 people (everyone cleans up afterward) and the 17 year old is responsible for preparing dinner. The kids have work teams for all household and outside cleaning so I'm really not sure what the mother does other than pop out kids Even for lessons, older children have a couple of younger siblings they are in charge of.

It will be interesting 10 years from now to see how the older kids have adapted to life, whether they follow this path or try to adjust to a more normal lifestyle, they're not really prepared for.

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"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
-Oscar Wilde

That was exactly my thought, LOL. If they run out of names, maybe they can invent some!!

I have three children and sometimes feel guilty that there isn't enough of me to go around. I constantly worry that one is getting left out because I have to give extra time or attention to another. I just can't imagine how you can really be a good/involved parent with that many children.

Ok I fess up I don't like it. I saw the documentary and they depend way to much on all the kids!!!! Those older ones are mother and father to the younger ones. When do they get a chance to say see ya' I'm out of here? They can't they are so controlled byt their responsibilities and their parents lack of self control. Granted my opinion does not matter to anyone most especially them but really people act like adults and use control.

And the fact that while they are not getting government aid doesn't make a difference to me.

Ok putting on flame retardant

Laura

I don't think it's any of our business to judge as to how many children they have as long as WE aren't footing the bill for it. According to the news report, they have a 7,000 sq ft. house, so they're not hurting for space. As for the older children helping the younger children, I think that normally happens in every family no matter what the size.

I think it's funny how everyone is talking about how odd to have that many children when back in our parents and grandparents and great grandparents' time it was not unusual at all to have 17 children. My father came from a family of 14. Most families were large and back then, there weren't all the luxuries we have today.

I have an answer to who the Duggars are hurting: Their own kids!

I think its a crime that the older kids have to do so much work. I have no problem with kids having chores, it teaches them responsibility, but cooking for 10+ people when you're a teenager? That is WRONG, IMHO.

Plus, the family has to be "institutional" in some respect. By "institutional" I mean like how the army is, no personal space or time, having meals is like a mess hall, endless scheduling because there are so many people, etc. That has to be hard on the kids, especially the older ones, to have no free time or privacy.

I don't care if they are footing the bill themselves, what they are doing is wrong IMHO. I don't get what they really get out of having so many kids other than the money/attention from Discovery and other sources.

And that is my opinion. Thank-you for reading. LOL!!!

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Jesus SAVES by shopping smartly and using double coupons!

They seem like a well organized and loving family, however I agree that the older kids are helping to raise the younger ones. I have mixed feelings as to whether that is a good or a bad thing. It is good to help out, but maybe they have too much responsibility. A typical mother doesn't have to cook for 17 people!

I don't see how they can possibly have enough time and/or energy to see to all of the childrens physical, emotional and spiritual needs.

More importantly is that if I were a mother to 17 children I would be afraid of not being able to support them if something were to happen to my dh. Hopefully they have enough money saved/invested for an emergency situation.

I SOOOOO agree
I am the oldest of 10, so I know what its like to "help" raise your brothers and sisters. My parents had 10 living (1 miscarrage, 1 still born and I had a baby sister who dies in a fire when I was 15) children in 20 years. It's not fair to the older children. I'd like to see a follow up in a few years when the older ones rebel. no that I did LOL

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I have OCCD
Obsessive-Compulsive Coupon Disorder!!!

You know...is this the family that people gave cars etc too??????????

Perhaps they should give them a free tubaligation?????????????????????????????????????? ??

Awesome!!!!
I might have had negative thoughts about that many until I met one of my very best friends, She has eight girls and one son! They live within their means (which isn't much at all), home school, just finally got another bathroom in the unfinished basement BUT they are the happiest people I know! Yes, the older girls look out for the younger ones but it can be done without the older ones feeling like they have too much responsibility. They are very devout Catholics. They have raised the kids to know that families take care of each other. They really enjoy each other. They range from 1 yr this weekend to 18 yrs old this summer. Seriously, I don't know a happier bunch of people and I know them very well. I help them with Christmas gifts-she shops at my house! She feeds and clothes them and buys hygiene items etc. for $600.00 a month! I would be really, really surpised if any of them felt neglected emotionally or felt too much responsibility. It sounds strange but I find PEACE at their house-it's so full of love!!!
About Catholics and NFP. I took a class in that once. THat's how I concieved my two sons!!! I wanted boys and I timed it according to the method and it worked perfectly. NFP couples have the lowest divorce rate. And it's not the old rhytmm method either!! It works on the womans personal cycle. Plus, nothing artificial, no hormones, no mess, no pills, etc...

Yes but back in our grandparents day, they NEEDED that many kids to help run the farms or they would starve! There isn't a *need* to have that many kids today as there was in the early 1900's but that's just my take on it

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

My grandmother was #12 of 15 children. And her family was poor. But they lived on what they raised on their farm, their mother made their clothes. Of course, that was a hundred years ago and times were different then.

When I was 19, I lived in a small town in Michigan that had a large Amish population. One family nearby had 23 children. But they lived like people lived back in my grandma's childhood days. They lived on what they raised on their farm, and their mother made their clothes.

I was an only child. Do you know how thrilled I would have been to have a whole bunch of brothers and sisters? It would have been a less lonely childhood.

And now, facing the realization that children just aren't in the cards for me, I see people having that many kids and just think life isn't fair sometimes. But if they can honestly love and care for all those kids, more power to them!!

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I'm in a constant search for the next great freebie or deal.

This statement was interesting to me. I actually think they are probably better prepared for adult life than most kids. Heck, they look more responsible than me, and I'm an almost-40 mother of a teen or two of my own. lol

I don't think I consider them abnormal. Culturally for us, they are atypical, but within their own social circles, while they have more kids than other families, there are plenty who have 12 or more kids, and they all fit in well together.

I also have mixed feelings about the olders having to watch youngers. On one hand, it seems unfair. My own husband came from a situation like this, and while I think it rather warped one of his sisters (because she's a bit of a hall monitor type now as an adult... long story), for most of them, I believe it was actually a positive thing.

Somewhere along the line, our mindset has shifted. Parents used to view their children's childhood as the time in which they needed to be preparing for adulthood, acquiring skills, and becoming responsible. "Fun" was something you got to have if any free time remained after all the necessary work was done. IF there was free time... not even "when"... because sometimes, there simply was no time for fun.

I'm not sure our nation is *better* in this time of teens who have so much free time in which to experiment with sex, drugs, and alcohol. It may be the norm... but it's not resulting in an elevated way of life.

I have a feeling those Duggar kids will be very well prepared for their adult life. What our culture considers "fun" probably isn't on their radar at all, so while they don't seem "normal" to most, that doesn't mean it's something from which they all wish to escape as soon as they're 21.

Never in a million years would I want the responsibility of so many kids. What it takes on her part to orchestrate all that those kids pull off can't be easy. Just having the discipline to teach children to be so responsible at a young age, to take them to the store and send them off with lists and know that even the ten year old is capable of shopping very well... it's all pretty impressive, and didn't happen simply because the older kids happen to be good teachers for the youngers.

I don't think it's selfish of them to have so many, because their decision is based in their religious beliefs. They didn't just wake up and decide they *wanted* 17 kids. They believe God wants them to have as many as He blesses them with. I don't interpret the Bible the same way they do. I see what they're saying when people like that explain their position, but I think, personally, that it's an incorrect interpretation.

But... I can't fault them for it, because I know they are sincere and not just adopting that belief because there is something in it for them. An analogy would be a situation where two kids are home alone, and the mom has left a to-do list that includes "Do dishes." One child may think that means wash them and put them on the drainer... the other may think it means wash, dry, and put away. Both want to please mom. That's their job - to do Mom's list. She's the boss, they need to obey her... and they disagree on what she wants, so each does what they believe she wants, to the best of their ability.

That's what's at work with the Duggars. They truly believe they're *supposed* to have so many, so they're doing it.

Since they're not doing it on my dime, I say power to 'em. I presume those kids won't end up in jail or killing someone while driving drunk. They'll all likely turn into solid, contributory citizens, something we can't say for many of our kids in the world today.

I’m sorry but I don’t consider them normal at all – and I’m referencing normal as healthy responses - not just typical. The particular sect of Christianity they follow demands submissiveness to not only the husband, but Pastor, Deacon, father and even older sons/brothers.

Then there is Quiverful, which they are very involved in. It absolutely disapproves of hospital delivery, trained medical doctors, sterilization, birth control etc (and not in the Catholic way, where the discussion is not taboo and other methods are acceptable and even encouraged.) If they want children for religious reasons that's one thing but both these organizations make it very clear they feel the lessening birth rates among white Europeans & white European Americans is dangerous to the Christian community. (Now that’s a heck of a Christian attitude )

There is also something very wrong in a household that accepts donated professional appliances, cars, a grand piano as appropriate, even though the income from their rental property enables the father to work very little and still contribute $250,000 to his federal campaigns without financial hardship – while knowing he stood absolutely no chance against the incumbent. Just what kind of example does that set for these children? Solid, contributory citizens or entitlement?

I don't think large families are wrong at all - this one though between the "submissive/aggressive dominance, the Js, the color coordinating clothes, and the fact that their friends are their siblings exclusively, is seriously creepy. I stand by the normal remark – if they eventually try to enter “typical” society there is very little chance they can do so psychologically healthy.

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"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."
-Oscar Wilde

Okay, I have waited since the first post to respond as I was trying to find the right words to describe how I feel about this........ and three pages later, I come up with...It is Disgusting!

17 children? NO ONE, I mean no one, not super mom, not even Batman and Robin can give the individual attention that children need. Even if we take the financial aspect out of the equation (sp) There is absolutely no way that they can be parents that children deserve. It is completely unfair to the older siblings. THey may have a great system for care, meals, laundry, etc. But a family is not what family is supposed to be built around. It is sad & sick to me.

I have 3 children and a husband and sometimes by the days end, I feel that I have neglected (for a lack of better word) someone in our house, because there was not enough of me to go around to each and everyone as they want or need. I am not basing my opinion solely on my personal family situation alone. My mother in law is one of 24 LIVING children (and she is NOT the baby). There were more, but that's what's left living. She is up in her 70s, I hear her stories of growing up. Don't get me wrong, she loves each of her siblings. And yes, back in there time, she was from the generation where children were needed to work on the farm, etc. That was hard enough, but she was in essence a mother to most of her siblings rather than a Sister. I am not saying that her mother was a bad mother, BUT..... she couldn't take care of that many children without assistance from the other children. My mother in law did grow not wanting children, until later in life because she did feel that she had already raised children and needed a break. And the cycle didn't end when she was grown and moved out and got married, etc. Because now the parents are gone and yet the older siblings that are still living are still obligated to care for those younger ones. Still unfair for the older siblings. And yet it still does NOT end....Why? Because the younger ones are following in the mother's foot steps, boring more children than they can care for them selves, yet placing the burden on another generation of older siblings......AND who could blame them? Because they learned it from their own mother..Go ahead bear as many children as you like, you've got built in care takers with the older children.

Having 17 children to me is pure senselessness, selfishness and a few other choice words that I can't post here. Disgusting! And I know that they claim it is for religious beliefs and I probably shouldn't say this BUT, I can't imagine .......and I will stop there as I will not reflect my true thoughts on that.

I also want to say that I have to agree with the other poster who said, the first thing thought of was there will be another documentary in the works!

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email is moserlara@yahoo.com

Sandye, I was not aware of those things you mention. Was this covered in the documentary?
Daltonmama, you make great points.

More power to them and I hope they are all happy but I have changed my position on this matter.

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

Not sure were you have gotten your information from.

She had her babies in a hospital. Documentary shows them having appointments with a Dr., not even a mid-wife which many people, even non-Christians use.

The family simply loves the Lord and uses the Bible as their handbook in life. So do we. We are not part of some "sect of Christianity", never even heard of such a thing and my husband is a pastor.

I am not sure how I feel. My husband got "fixed" after our fourth. My body couldn't take anymore. We know families that let the Lord control their numbers although none are this large. i am fine with that for them, it wasn't for us. If we decide to increase our family at some point, we'll do it through adoption. There are many children out there that need a stable, loving home.

PS My girls are each others best friends too. They are 10, 8 and 7. Have known each other their whole lives! Why wouldn't they be best friends?? What is creepy about that? My sister and I have always been close too! Do they have other friends? Of course! Do the Duggers have other friends? I am sure they do! Seems to me the documentaries have showed that.

but I'm pretty sure they said that they bought all the professional appliances at auction for 10K.

I'm not sure how I feel about it.. to each his own.

But I'm an only child and I used to spend my summers with a family that had 8. I was one of the older ones and helped out quite a bit but I loved it. (I'm sure it may have been the novelty of it.. but still..) There was never a dull moment and so many things going on.

Yes 17 is a lot.. but I'm always jealous of people with large families because I grew up with just my mother and myself and it was too much attention. (I'm 37 and she still likes to know my every move.) Now I have 2 kids and would have liked more (just one or 2) but it's not going to happen.

I don't think they are hurting anyone.. and as for the documentary.. I will watch it.

But I do hate the "J" name thing.. but a lot of families do that...

I had to google the term "quiverfull", as I have been Catholic my whole life and never heard that particular term.

here are the results of that search:
Quiverfull: Information from Answers.com

highlights in the first paragraph alone:
Quiverfull is a relatively recent movement among conservative evangelical Protestant Christian couples chiefly in the United States

and

Its distinguishing viewpoint is to eagerly receive children as blessings from God, eschewing all forms of contraception, including natural family planning and sterilization. Someone of this persuasion might call themselves a "quiver full", "full quiver", "quiverfull-minded", or simply "QF" Christian. Roman Catholics and some others might refer to the Quiverfull position as Providentialism...


Are these people Catholic or a derivative of Catholicism? I can't ever remember a Pope or Priest teaching us that you should have as many children as possible and nevermind that you can't take care of them in all aspects of their needs (not money), because you will have built-in caretakers and instant parents as your older children grow up.

TBH, I think they like getting all of the attention...and free stuff.

The Catholic Church does teach birth control--just not the pills you pop into your mouth. They teach about abstinence.
I suppose this is a good example of "it takes a village to raise a child" (when it really should be "it takes Parents to raise a child")

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SPJRNTGADL!

I'm not sure where you got your information, so I can't say whether it's all accurate or not. I do know that at least one thing is not accurate - that they don't believe in modern medicine. I saw the Discovery show about them, and the baby that was born on that show - #15, I believe - was definitely born in a hospital. It showed them having an ultrasound with the other kids there to watch, and then it also showed them checking into the hospital when the baby was born, etc.

I also wasn't under the impression (but I could be wrong here!) that their appliances were donated. They built the house themselves... I believe all but the drywall, which they had hired out. They lived in a very small three-bedroom house for many years and saved to build the monster house in which they now live, and I'm rather sure that saving included saving for the kitchen.

Again, I don't know this for certain, but that's what I understood. Might I ask where you came across the information that they had them all donated?

My husband was one of fifteen children, and he didn't have alone time with his parents. For many, that's shocking and wrong. To him, however, it's just how things were. They got up very early and did chores (they lived on a farm). Their parents didn't go to many of their ballgames. There are a lot of things like that that I just can't even imagine. I never miss a game, never make mine get up at 4:45 to get work done before school... it's just a whole 'nother way of life.

What I can tell you is that all but two of his siblings are very productive, well-liked, hard-working, responsible adults today. One of his sisters - the tenderhearted one - really mourns not having had special time alone with her mother growing up. The others pretty much all have the attitude that, "We had each other and we had a great time most of the time." The brother who was "in charge" of my husband and he still share a special bond of friendship. That's true for each of the older/younger combos.

When they get together, they all sit around and laugh and talk and reminisce for hours upon hours. "Do you remember the time when I picked up the end of that irrigation pipe and all the water went spilling out the other end and you had on those new shoes dad TOLD you not to wear out into the field and they got ruined and you hid them in the barn and told Dad you thought the dog had carried them off?" And then they'll all laugh and laugh and tell another story.

None of the siblings in DH's family have more than four kids. Most have 2-3. All the kids went to college, and most graduated.

It's a much, much different way of life than that in which I was raised, and frankly, I couldn't pull it off myself. I have no desire to do so. I don't think the Bible requires it.

But I think this is a case of "Judge not lest ye be judged." I can't be judgmental about them. I've seen the results of a family like that firsthand. I live with my ultra-responsible yet fun-loving husband every day, and wouldn't trade him for the world.

I found where they have stuff donated as "gifts"
Jim Bob Duggar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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SPJRNTGADL!

I would have no problem with people adopting a litter, but producing your own is wrong. The world does not need more people, it needs more people with the sense to not reproduce without limit. We are all, paying for this in one way or another. Their taxes are lower, so who picks up the slack? They get discounts from merchants and doctors, more than likely, so who picks up the slack?

Many years ago my best friend, who had, at that time 5 kids and I who had two, decided to make our dental appointments on the same day so we could chat while we waited in the waiting room. Her kids went first and I was right there when they told her the total for her kids so she could write a check. I thought nothing of it until mine got done and my total was not two fifths of hers. I was charged $60 and she was charged $120. I asked to speak to the dentist in the back. He explained that he gave her a group discount. I asked him what his costs were to clean teeth and was the cost any different per person for two people than five. I also said I didn't appreciate subsidizing other peoples children. He admitted that it hadn't crossed his mind that he was expecting others to pay for the discounts. He said he would change his policy and I think he did.

I would have probably never have known about the discount had we not gone together. I think this happens all the time and probably shouldn't. I also think there should be no tax deductions for non-adopted, or non-handicapped children after you have had your second or third child. Those tax deductions were put in place to encourage reproduction, and we certainly don't seem to need that any more. Instead we should use them to encourage adoption or fostering.

Dreamscapes, here's what I know about the quiverfull movement... and mind you, I don't subscribe to it, so I may not have it all right.

They base it on this passage in Psalm 127:

Sons are a heritage from the LORD,
children a reward from him.

4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior
are sons born in one's youth.

5 Blessed is the man
whose quiver is full of them.

There are several instances in the Bible where people try to thwart pro-creation and it doesn't sit well with God. There is an instance where a man "spills his seed" so as to avoid impregnating his wife, and God is on her side, not his.

The quiver full folks put these thoughts/philosophies/principles together, and walk away with the understanding that children are something with which God blesses people, and that he doesn't want people purposely trying *not* to have them.

One thing I can say about DH's family is that for the most part, what sticks out to me is their, "It's not about me" attitude. They all have a very great sense of duty and responsibility to others and "the group". It's not that they never consider their own feelings or wants or needs so much as it is that they can step outside themselves and see what needs done and the just put all hands on deck and do it. If we're at a school function and the parents are all standing around talking and having refreshments while the teacher is trying to stack the chairs in the lunchroom and clean up, I'll look around and DH and his brother are over there helping her. While to ME, a child who was the oldest of two who had lots of one-on-one time with my parents, it's natural to stand around and chit-chat, to DH, it's normal to be aware of what's going on in the room that needs done, and to just get up and pitch in.

I'm much more "me" centered, and he's much more outwardly focussed. And so are all of his brothers and sisters. I really attribute it to their group-mentality upbringing. They're not depressed people, law-breaking people, or living-on-government-assistance people... they're just really, really solid, dependable, and enjoyable.

Dreamscapes, thanks for the link. I googled a bit myself, and couldn't find where it says *who* donated things, which seems odd to me. There are several (it looks like about 8-10) sites that pretty much have that same sentence from Wikipedia, word for word, about some of their appliances being donated... but nothing specific.

Everything I saw said they furnished their kitchen with commercial appliances they saved up for and then bought at auction, and that they have eight washers and dryers.

One thing I wonder is who gave them appliances. Here's why I ask...

They have what's known as a "home church." They don't, as far as I understand, belong to any specific denomination - they just consider themselves Christians, and meet with other Christians in their home on Sundays to sing, pray, and read the Bible. I understood from the documentary that they tend to meet at the Duggar house, since it's specifically been built to accommodate large groups of people in the public areas of the house.

I'm thinking it's quite possible that the others they meet with pitched in and helped furnish some things for the kitchen, since they show up every week there and utilize it. Their big home church group has a meal together every single Sunday, and I can see how it'd seem natural for those other families to offer to pay for the stoves, etc.

It's also possible that the Discovery Channel offered to buy them some washers and dryers if they'd let them come do a documentary on them. It's my understanding that they weren't paid for that documentary, but it wouldn't surprise me if, after hanging out with that family while they watched them build their big ole house, they wouldn't, as a "parting gift", send them something for that new house... maybe even from the companies that were paying for the documentary. All it would take would be for General Electric or Whirlpool to be underwriting the documentary. I think that's pretty commonly done, and not just for the Duggars. I think if an advertiser/sponsor of any show has opportunity to give away product and get a little product-placement on-air time, they do it... and that may very well be what happened here. If so, I don't think the Duggars should've had to say "No!" to what is typically done for anyone who allows camera crews to follow them around for several months.

TLC did help them "complete" their new home, so I suspect that is where the "donations" came from, and here is the article about the new baby grand piano.

The Wyman News: Wyman Piano Grand Piano TV Debut

So, it is as much of a marketing / branding event as it is a family event...and back to my original thought, I think they like getting the press.

Weird that the mother is listed on the IMDb

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SPJRNTGADL!

You know, I have no problem with someone getting a discount on dental work, drs appt, etc. A tax deduction has NO bearing on whether my husband and I CHOOSE to have three, four, five or more kids. That's silly. It's not like we get SO much back in a federal refund that would make us want to keep having kids. We have been blessed by God with our three girls.

Now, granted I'm sure there are some who DO keeping having kids because they get a bigger handout (i.e government assistance).

I highly doubt the Duggars are having kids because they get so much money back from the government. They are doing it for religious reasons, from what I've gathered.

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Amy
Mom to Lauren, Eryn, Naysa
and announcing......
Gavin Michael Chase, 9 lbs 10 ozs
and 21 3/4 inches long on 10/13/09!

Exactly. Those are the people who really get me riled. These parents homeschool... which means they're not getting free and reduced breakfasts and lunches at school every day. Theoretically, they could be using a boatload of gas riding the school bus every day (they'd practically fill one themselves - lol!)... but they aren't using our tax money that way. I'm sure that with his big income, Mr. Duggar is actually paying a lot in taxes that go to support the babies of teen mothers who are on complete public assistance.

I assume that accepting public assistance is something the Duggars would find to be against their religion, personally. I think they believe they have a responsibility to provide for the needs of their children. Obviously, they're okay with being gifted with a "want" from someone who chooses to freely give it, but I presume that at their core, they have a conviction that duty and responsibility outweigh everything else... and that they wouldn't take public assistance at all.

I could be wrong about that, as I didn't hear them *say* it on the special I saw, but it's something I sensed.

In the end, regardless of one-on-one time or how much culturally cool stuff a kid has or doesn't have, what will make them successful adults is a high standard of personal responsibility, sense of community, and respect for one's self and others. If, as adults they end up exhibiting these qualities, then I think their upbringing can be commended rather than scoffed at. It's the parents of the Paris Hilton types that I'd like to slap around a little! LOL!

THANK YOU!!!! I totally agree!! My thoughts on this family are, if they are happy and can afford it on THEIR OWN, then good for them, this is America. Now, the people who CAN'T afford it on their own, CLOSE YOUR LEGS, SNIP SNIP, or GET IT TIED!!! Flame away if you choose, but, that's how I feel. Why should I, or you (general you), have to pay for someone else to keep procreating when they can't afford to??? I'll stop there.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

for the free press and "product placement"? I highly doubt they would have been donated if it weren't for the TV specials. I don't think the family needs the handouts, and probably didn't ask for them.

Believe me though, there are plenty of wealthy people taking "free" things all the time that they don't need or deserve, because it gets the company name out there.

I don't think anyone can blame the family for receiving it.

Aha!! I finally found it........Cal Spas Press Room - Cal Spas Helps Surprise A Very Large Family On TLC’s Primetime Special, 16 Children And Moving In

The grills, pool table and gazebo were "surprise gifts". One comment I heard in a group conversation about this family: I can see a book and TV movie being made someday with these children telling the story of their upbringing and family life. This comment wasn't said in a nice manner either.

You have no problem that you are paying for someone else's dental work? But you do have a problem with government programs that help the needy? You don't really think that money is coming out of the dentists pockets do you? No. He has raised his rates to you to make sure that doesn't happen. He is making the choice for you of whether you want to donate to people with large families.

You might or might not decide to have the fifth or sixth or fifteenth child if you knew you would not be getting any more subsidies on your income tax. Why is the subsidy for children on income tax more acceptable than the programs for the needy? Those able to pay income tax are no more deserving of a handout than those who can't. And tha't what it is, a handout for the fertile. Most tax deductions came about to influence our choices. Want more home owners, make the interest deductable. Need more tax payers, give people incentives to produce more. Think that there is a need for more charitable giving, make a deduction.

We all pay in different ways and amounts for every child born, regardless of whether they are on welfare or just getting "help" by way of discounts from businesses, tax subsidies, or the increased depletion of natural resources. I have no problem with these within reason. But reason went out the window here.

the baby grand piano was "gifted" for a different show... the grill, pool table and other stuff was "gifted" for yet another show as the family grew.

there's money to be had in "gifts" and other goodies for each kid you pop out.

I am surprised her uterus hasn't fallen out yet. No wonder the mother is listed on IMDb!!

It's really sad.

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SPJRNTGADL!

I don't agree. The grills etc and the piano made their appearance in the new house.

I think the Mom just wants a lot of Mother's day gifts.

Seriously. I think it is unfair to the kids to have this many children.

Wow, talk about out of hand. My kids have less in their class than 17!!

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I found Jesus! He was behind the couch!

You go girl!! My friends with 9 children don't accept any time of assistance and I am sure they would qualify for everything out there..... They home school too and their taxes are going to the public education system too.

Why are a lot of you so angry at these people for having children? It's THEIR business -- not yours! Are you jealous that they're getting 'gifts' from companies? I've never seen so much references to what they're getting because of having so many children.

If this is the desire of this family to have all these children and they can provide for them, who are you to judge them? So the older children are helping raise the younger ones. So what? Why is that so much different than the single mom raising three or four children on her own who works two or three jobs and the older children have to care for the younger ones while mom works? Why hasn't anyone said anything about that? Normally when that is done, these older children are called brave and mature beyond their years, etc., etc.

These children are probably being raised a lot better than most children and instead of playing video games, watching TV and all the other stuff this younger generation is doing now (I believe this generation is now being called the "entitlement" generation), they'll be productive adults and ready to face the world when they're on their own.

And it's HER uterus -- not yours. (Would you prefer she abort?) All this debate about it's a woman's right to choose -- well, this is HER choice!! So who are you to tell her not to have a child???