Another poster got me thinking.....Will you agree?

If you google [nelson kristin espino jacksonville florida] You will see a beautiful story about friends of ours who became parents 1 year ago with 3 little girls and 1 little boy. They are a wonderful loving family and have their work cut out for them.

Here is my question, Another poster was talking about an instant family, where ppl went out and had in-vitro or other hormone alternatives so that they could have a baby. Well, one of the things that can happen is that you could have several viable babies. That was the case with the espino's, here is the kicker, they COULD AFFORD them. I just wonder about ppl who have this huge families and then look for free hand outs. I am not saying that you should abort any child, If you are doing in-vitro but, dang if you can barely afford the shots should you use these treatments that can produce several children at once?

And I haven't even gotten started on the ppl who have their children "naturally" and have 10, 12, 16 children and then look to the government to help them out!!! I t drives me CRAZY! As you can clearly see. Just to be clear I have NO PROBLEM if you want to have 25 children, thats your business, but it becomes mine when I have to pay for it!

I could go on and on but, you guys have read enough,

So, do you agree with me??

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Vicki


TLJ Women united in Spirit!

No, I don't agree with you. I have known a few couples who suffered enormously for their inability to conceive and I would not want to deny them an opportunity to share their love with children. In the event that the in-vitro had a very high success rate, I think it's good that there are folks that are willing to help out to make ends meet and I don't begrudge them that for a moment. I just don't think I could say "if you can't afford six children, you should not try".

I'm far more likely to want to crack down on those who choose to bring multiple children through multiple pregnancies into this world without viable means of supporting them physically, emotionally or financially.

JMHO,
cj/

There is always adoption though, its not like your saying they could never have children. There are tons and tons of children in this world that need a loving home.

Its not like I'm saying if you can't get pregnant to bad for you, No Children! I just think that its not right to expect handouts if you do have these kids, come on if you can barely afford the treatment you sure as heck can't afford to feed four to six kids for the next 18 years.

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Vicki


TLJ Women united in Spirit!

I agree with you, OP. Don't have kids you can't afford to support. I only have two because I know that's what DH and I can comfortably afford. No one has a "right" to have all the kids they want on someone else's dime.

I think it is also the doctor's fault,why implant so many embryos at once?
a good friend just had twins(in vitro) ,but only 3 embryos were implanted.and 2 made it....

and I agree with OP,if you can;t afford to have children,don't have them!!!!

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By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends

after reading the article,ther were no invito ,but medications.....but still,they are very lucky to have help.of course I wouldn;t be helping them.....(I know tough and mean...they are blessed with those babies...but they should be doing it on thier own!!!!)

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By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends

Boy oh boy, the places this post could go!!!!

Overall, no, I don't think people should have children they can't afford.

In the case of invitro fertilization, I don't think they expect all the embryos to make it, kwim??? I know if I were in that same boat, I would go thru invitro to conceive. Thankfully, I'm not in that boat. Heck DH looks at me sideways....BAM, I'm pregnant. For people who have difficulty, tho, I know it must be heartbreaking.

For the people that continue to have them, and can't afford them....certainly not all of them do it intentionally. Some can't afford birth control. Not excusing it, just stating a fact. I don't like to pay for other people's irresponsibility in any realm, be it with too many children, or anything else.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I agree with you in a sense. I definitely have a problem with people who have kids just to up their goverment income (yes, it does happen..) I don't have a problem with people who want a biological baby and just get more than they bargain for with invitro or hormones. My gut feeling is people who use invitro or hormones are the ones that can afford kids or have the personal support system in place to become financially able to support them.

ITA!!!!!!!!!!1

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Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. - Will Rogers

I absolutely agree. Don't have them if you can't support them. The exact reason I stopped at 2, I knew that was all we could afford. I would have loved to of had a big ole house full, but I would never ask anyone to help me support my kids.

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How often do you think this is the case? I really have no idea, but I guess I have a feeling that inability to afford birth control of any form (including condoms) is not that prevalent. Not to mention that if birth control is not affordable, clearly diapers and formula are going to be a major challenge...

cj/

I'd much rather see a couple who desparately wants a baby accidentally end up with quadruplets than see one young single mother end up with four babies in five years with three different men and no visible means of support.

I'd be more compelled to support the children of the irresponsible one for the sake of the kids, but feel like extending more grace to the ones who were just trying to accomplish what most people can naturally and got more than they bargained for.

Right on, wowitsdark! I agree!!

I know someone who adopted a baby, and THEN got on welfare-how cool is that? Her DH was unemployed at the time, her parents paid for the whole adoption, and then, yup, the checks started coming....Where do I sign up????????????

in a way ,i would help if the help wasn;'t ask...seting up accounts and such,is a bit of turn off!!!!

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By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends

I guess I should have said that I know the Espinos and are about to go to the kids 1st Birthday party

The account wasn't their idea either. It was kind of a big deal here in j-ville and Vystar took it upon themselves through channel 4 local news. The Espinos did not ask for it. I think it was so they could get on the news! The Espinos have not asked for anything regarding money.

I guess that my point is the Espinos were using something and it was okay b/c they can afford if 6 babies come flying out of there! Needless to say, I think they are done with the baby making!!

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Vicki


TLJ Women united in Spirit!

To answer the question, no, I don't think you should do in-vitro if you aren't prepared to be able to financially support however many eggs you implant. I think if anyone has children, regardless of the method, they should be prepared to take care of them...and not expect the taxpayers to! ~Lisa

I agree, We stopped at 2, knowing if we had more, I would not be able to stay home with them

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Well I have a whole other opinion I am kinda worried the docs are putting in like 6 or whatever eggs at a time I dont think thats safe for mom or the babies

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mom of 3 greats girls

I posted that story originally.

I am more apt to help the family that has multiples than I am to help the one that decided to get pregnant before marriage at the age of 12 or 13...and then keep having them while sucking off welfare.

On the story I posted: The mom did not lose enough blood during childbirth and subsequently had a heart attack (her body couldn't tolerate all the extra blood after the kids were born).

I seriously don't think that the family in the story I posted expected that all the eggs they implanted would "take"...you can tell that from the story of the pregnancy (video). Never do the parents make mention of the cost of raising sextuplets--only the time / energy involved.

I am Catholic too, and am in favor of In-vitro for married couples who would otherwise be childless. I am not in favor of kids who have kids unless they are married.

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SPJRNTGADL!

First of all, I do not want to pay for anyone else's kids. I really do not care how they got here, oops, on purpose, or otherwise. Secondly, the number of eggs to implant is a decision made between the doctor and the couple. There are a LOT of factors governing this decision. Some couples opt for a bunch of eggs and then do "selective reduction" in the hopes for a healthy pregnancy and kids. Others get surprises like the implanted egg divides and now there are more babies! I marvel at the one who can do it - like the couple on TV with the 6 2 year olds and the two 6 year olds. Notice they are paying their own way.

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Lyn Clarke

Here is the link to the couple in Minnessota who also had sextuplets. Sadly, one of their babies has died.

Morrison6 » Home

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I have no actual statistics, but, I know it exists. If someone is having a hard time finding money to pay their bills, feed their family, etc., I am sure money for birth control is not a top priority on their list. ITA, if you can't afford birth control, HOW will you afford diapers, formula, etc. That was the point I was trying to make. I was trying to bring to light some scenarios where women get pregnant and may need to rely on public aid to help them raise their children.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Holy cow, as the brand new mother of a daughter conceived via in vitro I don't have the energy or time to respond to all the misinformation and heartless statements on this thread. Suffice to say, if you were able to conceive your children naturally then thank God that you will never have to endure the heartbreak, medical procedures, emotional devestation and financial battering that infertility brings down on you. I have to go hold my daughter now.

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Raising my baby RIGHT!!!!!!

All the cool babies are wearing cloth!

This is what I was afraid of! I am so sorry.

I think that the fact that some people will spend their life savings on these expensive treatments (that are not entered into willy-nilly) to bring the love of a child into their family is a testament to the level of commitment made. And I have faith that all else will fall into place.

I'm in your court, tessa! Love that little one!

cj/

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions...I don't think anyone is being heartless...If you have been raised a certain way and things have been drilled into your head, you may think this way and be against in-vitro...Not saying the stance is right or wrong...I've never been in the situation where I really wanted to have a baby and couldn't...Who knows?...If I had been, I may have done anything to have a baby of my own...My heart goes out to those who have had to go through this...I just think that I would have chosen to adopt a child...Anyway, for those of you who asked, here is the Catholic church's stance on in-vitro...

Summary -- Our faith is about love. When we embrace Christ's love for us we naturally want to love others as a sign of our faith. This love knows no boundaries; we love all people of all ages, including the unborn. Because of our love we must oppose in-vitro fertilization. Here is why.
While in-vitro, as it is commonly used, can result in the creation of life it also destroys life in the process. In-vitro involves surgically removing from a woman several or many eggs, fertilizing them in a lab, selecting the "stronger" fertilized eggs and implanting them back in the woman. The remaining fertilized eggs (those deemed "weaker") are either frozen or destroyed.
Determining which fertilized eggs are "stronger" is not an exact science. And even if it were, we as Catholics cannot justify freezing or ending a life only because it appears to be weaker. Our faith teaches us to "love one another" (John 13:34), to respect all life, including the unborn. And after all, it is often the so-called "weaker" members of society who keep us compassionate.
Additionally, the procedure interferes with what God wants to be a sacred intimate act between a wife and a husband. In-vitro introduces a "third party" -- the laboratory -- into the act of pro-creating, thus, removing the intimacy between a couple. In this way, the coming-to-be of a person is treated like a manufacturing process, which is beneath our human dignity. We believe God wants the life of a child to begin with the beautiful and unique way in which a husband and wife give their lives to each other. As Catholics, we struggle with any procedure that takes human creation outside of this mutual giving of spouses.
So, you might ask, what does the Church support? On the list of many options are two highly successful methods -- Natural Family Planning and NaPro Technology (Natural Procreative Technology). Documented research shows that NaPro results in a pregnancy success rate one-and-a-half to three times higher than in-vitro. Couples experiencing infertility also are encouraged to consider foster parenting or adoption, both of which are unique and rewarding calls to parenting that benefit children in need.
The best way to determine which option is right for you is to begin with prayer. Asking God for guidance in creating a family is sure to provide the right answer.

This is so easy -- if you can't afford to have a baby, and can't afford birth control and can't or won't have an abortion, then just don't have sex. How hard is that? Is it really fair for the taxpayers to pay for you to have sex?

And if your prayers lead you to In-Vitro?

I don't think it's "fair" for any parent to EXPECT assistance or handouts regardless of how many children they have. I think that if a family commits to IVF or some similar method to become pregnant then they should also be prepared for birth of multiple babies. Geez, when my partner and I were working on getting pregnant, all I took was Clomid and was "warned" that I stood a higher likelyhood of twins if I conceived while on the drug.

And regarding the poor people that can't afford birth control? That's crap! Most of the health clinics and Family Planning will give condoms and/or birth control pills for free or at a very reduced cost. Not being able to afford birth control is a sorry excuse.

We tried to have #2 for almost five years before I got pregnant w/her. I had so many tests, humiliating tests where we had to have sex and get to the drs office so they could take a sample from me to check the sperm, ultrasounds every month while I had my period while taking clomid, HSG's where the nurse said "are you sure there's no way you are pregnant?" umm hello, why do you think I'm here? Blood work, etc etc. I gave up on ever having anymore kids after the clomid. The next step for us was IUI, which my hubby would have agreed to, but not anything more. Plus our insurance wouldn't cover anything after the clomid.

I was such a horrible, nasty, jealous person during those years. I hated who I was. I hated when people where getting pregnant right and left and here I was struggling. I wanted to have a baby (my hubby's 1st one) SO bad that it consumed me.

I don't see anything wrong with people doing IVF, or other fertility treatments. It is expensive for the treatments and if you are lucky enough for your insurance to cover them, that's even better.

While there ARE many children waiting to be adopted, I know from MY own personal experience, it would NOT have been the same for me. I wanted to experience pregnancy, labor, birth with my husband. So it's easy for people who have never dealt w/infertility to say "just adopt, there's so many kids out there waiting." Quite honestly, you need to walk a mile in the shoes of a person who's dealing w/infertility. By reading this thread, most of the people on here have NOT had an issue getting pregnant so you don't know the emotions that go along with it.

While I know the heartache of infertility all too well, I don't think the gov't should be supporting the kids, though. You need to be able to support the children that you wanted to have. So, if you want to have 10 kids, more power to you, but make sure you aren't asking the gov't for a handout.


Tessa67, I'm happy that you were able to have your dream!

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Amy
Mom to Lauren, Eryn, Naysa
and announcing......
Gavin Michael Chase, 9 lbs 10 ozs
and 21 3/4 inches long on 10/13/09!

I'm not sure if the thread has gone OT, but, we're not judging wether or not a woman should have IVF or hormone therapy to conceive, if they can afford to have the child. I agree that sometimes when going thru these treatments, you get more than you bargained for, with many babies at once. You signature line says "Navy wife", so, I assume you are not on public assistance. The OP asked is we agree that if you can't afford to have children, you shouldn't. That's what I was replying to, anyway.

Bravo to you on your beautiful bundle

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well, there certainly was some discussion on the general topic of IVF and whether it was right/wrong. And the judgment that we were asked to agree with (or not) in the basenote was that a couple should not pursue infertility treatments if they were not in a position to afford raising how every many children might result from the process.

Are we all reading the same stuff?

cj/

Tessa,

I got off early last night and did not read any this morning as were out but I wanted to say sorry, I am not judging anyone who has invitro or uses something else to enchance pregnancy. You might even remember Kristin and Nelson's story since you are in J-ville, these are my friends and I fully supported their decision. I wanted to say that I hope your feelings aren't hurt and I went back and read and re-read my own personal statements and I hope it was not one of mine that hurt you.

That being said I think we should get back on topic.
I don't think you should have any type of drug if you can't afford to pay for the whole cast of eight is enough to come flying out of there.
I don't think that women or men(getting mutiple women pregnant)should have all these children PERIOD if they can't pay.

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Vicki


TLJ Women united in Spirit!

Well said! ~Lisa

In my first post I answered the original question...the second post I did get way OT...sorry if I offended anyone.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm against in-vitro for any reason.

I don't oppose in-vitro in general, but in some cases, it seems like it's horribly abused. In a situation where parents aren't comfortable reducing embryos, I don't think there's any way a doctor should be implanting six. That's not healthy for the mum or babies, and a pregnancy that's going to hurt the woman isn't one that should knowingly be allowed to happen.

I don't have children, because we haven't yet reached a stage where it seems financially sound. At times, I do envy women who started in their teens, have multiple children, and are on government assistance. I don't think it's ethical to have children when you know you can't afford them. I don't think it's an entitlement. That said, I admire people who go to great lengths to care for their families, and do try to help out parents who I think generally care for their kids. I guess I just don't like it when children come into this world in much the same way stray kittens do.

What is the percentage of people who go through in vitro who end up with major multiples? Like... four or more?

If the chances are 1/10,000 that you'll end up with quads, and each attempt is $10,000, I can see why families risk it.

Are the chances that an IVF procedure will result in sextuplets greater than, say... a normal pregnancy will result in a child with a severe mental or physical deformity?

If the chances of a baby to a couple getting pregnant the regular old way is 1/3,000 that the baby will have a severe mental or physical handicap, and the chances of an IVF resulting in multiples are 1/10,000, does it make sense that we criticize IVF families for taking one risk, while applauding couples having babies naturally?

I ask because the chances are very great that a child with a severe mental or physical handicap will receive a very large amount of government assistance over the course of it's life.

Im just not sure if I'm following you correctly but isn't the point about being able to afford to have all these babies, not anything else.

Just as a extremely obese person can go on disability for something they caused. So can smokers who choose to smoke knowing the risk or someone who loses a leg b/c they drove drunk. I feel we have veared off course. Sure you can take the chance that life happens but the original point is and I'm going to try to be clear.

If you know that there is a chance you will have 6 babies and you decide thats good for you, should you be able to ask for assistance. Or if you are a baby factory and don't have a job should you recieve assistance?

This is not about in-vitro, adoption or natural child birth being good or bad, right or wrong. I hope we can get back to the topic.

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Vicki


TLJ Women united in Spirit!

Sorry I wasn't very clear.

My point was that if we are going to be critical of those who make the choice to "risk" being in the position to need government assistance because of IVF, we have to be aware that each of us take risks that are equally as "risky" if not moreso that we'll have a child or children who require taxpayer money to subsist.

Going into any situation, be it baby-making or house-buying or anything at all bears a certain amount of risk, and it's incumbent upon us all to do our best to calculate those risks and attempt to avoid creating situations we cannot financially carry out.

But regardless, sometimes you fall on the backside of the "risk". People shouldn't necessarily be criticized for taking the risk if in hindsight, it was "too big" because of the unlikely way it turned out.

There's a big difference between being in a situation that may change, and choosing to go into a situation you know you won't be able to deal with on your own. My concern is with those in the latter position.

Wow, the statements about adoption alone in this thread make me want to puke.

Unless you have ever had the "pleasure" of infertility, you don't know WHAT lengths you will go to in order to become a parent. You will exhaust yourself emotionally, physically, and financially. Who are you to say who should and should not do these treatments?

Yes, people abuse the system all the time. But you know what? It's not those children's fault. I can only hope you never find yourself in that situation someday. Things in life can change so fast.

Do you get nosebleeds often from sitting so high on that horse?

ROTFLMAO...but so true.

Once again, I think wowitsdark framed it well and gave some good analogies.

As for the question:

Well, first let me say, that I can't believe that these questions are grouped together as if they are comparable situations. That hurts me, and I have biological children.

But my answer is yes, the children should receive assistance (of some sort, perhaps not the same as today's program). You cannot punish a child for the mistake of its parents (for the second question). For the infertile couple that gets a little more than they had planned for and are able to handle, yup, we as a society should help them out as part of the risk pool.

Hugs to those that are hurting...

cj/