He admitted to killing two dogs in court papers filed today, punishable up to 5 years in prison, $250K fines.

Part of me wonders if we extend more right and consideration to animal victims than we do to human victims. Does anyone else feel this way??? What do you think about this case? About Michael Vick? The Vick brothers?

NFL suspends Vick indefinitely - CNN.com


cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I think it's about time they suspended that piece of trash. As far as the comparison to humans/vs animal rights I 'm all for an eye for an eye and death penalty. I don't think it gets used as much.. vick lost his job so far and has a fine . not enough in my book!

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Too many people spend money they haven't earned to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. - Will Rogers

I am sorry I cannot agree with this statement. Vick is responsible for the lives of 53 dogs that are assured a certain death, plus killing the two dogs he admitted too and god only knows how many more that were killed in the ring. Along with illegal gambling and an illegal dogfighting ring and paraphenilia this guy deserves to rot in hell. However he is gonna get a fine maybe a year in jail and go on with his life. You want to tell me that this is more right and more consideration than a human case. BS

Next time someone wants to come on here and gripe about an animal biting or attacking people just know it is because of people like this who get a slap on the wrist and go on to do it again and again only forsaking the poor innocent dogs trying to please their owners.

I don't feel he's been punished enough by any stretch.

Unthinkable - the dogs have no choice. These crimes against animals are unforgivable - and killing the ones that didn't perform well by hanging or drowning. How revolting. As if Vick couldn't fork over enough money to find some other options to amuse himself in a more humane manner.

And I can't begin to stress how SICK I am of celebrities who believe they are above the law. I could go on and on in regard to that topic.

Agree with you 100%, maysonsmom!!! I have many thoughts on this subject BUT you summed it up very well!!

Debbie

I think he deserves the harshest penalty possible...for that crime. These are innocent animals, that not only did he kill but he tortured. From what I heard before on the news is that he hung some dogs and when that didnt kill them, he then drowned them. Also what about the ones he hosed down and electricuted. I'm not sure if that was him who did that one, but he funded this whole bit so he should get the punishment that goes along with it.
This is a man that makes millions of dollars and he couldn't find a hobby that wouldnt injure anyone or animals....thats a shame.
What has our world turned into...hes a disgrace to his family, and the sports world.
Just my two cents

I knew when all this started that this man was never going to get what he deserved!! He's Michael Vick....an "ICON" in sports (what a JOKE!)! It's makes me sick!! He'll pull a few months in a minimum security jail, work out the whole time, take some time off from football (right now he's been cut loose but I bet "he'll be back....") and come back again. There are other convicted felons playing pro ball right now (so my DH says). People forget too quick when it's "just animals" that are being harmed (and I say this w/EXTREME SARCASM!).

I think this should be what happens to the man (though I wouldn't mind seeing him treated as he did the dogs==though I am NOT that inhumane!). He needs to pull a few YEARS in jail (though we know that won't happen), get out and have to dish out about 3 or 4 MILLION DOLLARS to animal rights groups and/or the Humane Society AND during his probation time, he should be require to do community service at the Humane Society for a year or so! THIS MAN NEEDS TO GIVE SOME BACK NOW--financially and of his time to just partially pay back for all the poor defenseless dog's lives that he has taken! They couldn't take up for themselves and that really makes me sad that someone in his position would do something so mean and cruel!

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Mom to a beautiful 15 year old DD and my handsome little man who's 6!

~~~GO DALE JR!!~~~

I agree. This creep deserves to rot in prison for a long, long time

I think this should be what happens to the man (though I wouldn't mind seeing him treated as he did the dogs==though I am NOT that inhumane!). He needs to pull a few YEARS in jail (though we know that won't happen), get out and have to dish out about 3 or 4 MILLION DOLLARS to animal rights groups and/or the Humane Society AND during his probation time, he should be require to do community service at the Humane Society for a year or so! THIS MAN NEEDS TO GIVE SOME BACK NOW--financially and of his time to just partially pay back for all the poor defenseless dog's lives that he has taken! They couldn't take up for themselves and that really makes me sad that someone in his position would do something so mean and cruel! [/quote]


Don't we all wish you were the judge in this case. Wouldn't it be a dream to see him made an example of?

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

Gosh, do I agree! Just look at Lindsay Lohan. What a mess. Cocaine, highjacking, DWI, multiple offender, and she's barely in any trouble. If any of us did that, WOW!

I agree 1000%. I have no use for people like him. He makes me sick!

What I meant with the human/animal comment was that when crimes involve animals, there is typically a huge public outcry. When it involves humans....or children....well, not so much. That confuses me....do we value pets more than humans? Or have we become numb to some types of crime.....child and/or spousal abuse....

Hats off to Goodell for his swift actions and statements.....as my son says "he's bad a$$" and that's a good thing.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

That's an EXCELLENT question.

I absolutely think Vick will never be punished adequately for what he did.

However, I think you're right - for every 80 stories we hear about crimes against people, there might only be one that's a crime against a dog.

I think we have kept our feelings of protecting animals where they should be, but have become somewhat desensitized to the "everyday" crimes against people.

BTW, did anyone read JAMIE FOXX's spin on this whole thing? Unbelieveable:

“It’s a cultural thing, I think,” Jamie said. “Most brothers didn’t know that, you know. I used to see dogs fighting in the neighborhood all the time. I didn’t know that was Fed time. So, mike probably just didn’t read his handbook on what not to do as a black star.”

“I know that cruelty to animals is bad, but sometimes people shoot people and kill people and don’t get time,” Jamie continued. “I think in this situation, he really didn’t know the extent of it, so I always give him the benefit of the doubt.”


Where to begin on this point of view...

I haven't heard of people being set up to fight each other to death for spectator sport since the gladiators in Rome. I think if they were, there would be an appropriate public outcry.

Point well made. I guess I wasn't thinking about it quite that way, so thank you. But that gets me thinking....except for the to death part, there are humans who fight as a spectator sport and there are gang fights and so on....and some animals do have it in their nature to fight other animals to death....so I'm not real sure what I think. Not very knowledgable on this subject....

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Check this out:

Shop with the Big Dogs


~Lisa


DH says that we'll be seeing alot of Vick shirts at the local thrift stores! In fact, I heard on the radio the other day that alot of the local animal shelters here in ATL are receiving Vick towels, shirts, etc. for them to use for clean up or blankets for the animals!

The difference to me, is that when people fight each other, they choose to do so. Animals might also do so, but there is a big difference (to me) between animals who do this in the wild for survival and animals who are set up to do so for the "fun" of humans watching and betting.

A video of New York Mets pitcher Pedro Martinez and Hall of Famer Juan Marichal at a cockfight was posted this week on YouTube. They were the ones who tossed the roosters into the arena. The roosters were killed.

Video of Martinez at Cockfight Surfaces - AOL Sports

This is much ado about nothing in my opinion. According to the news report, cockfighting is legal in the Dominican Republic.

I don't know what it is about the US that we seem to think that we can impose our standards and cultures on others....we may think that animal fights are deplorable, we may chose to feed animals better than we feed our children, spend more on animal health care thane we are willing to spend on our children, but we don't really have the right to expect others to do the same.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

No, but as "fans" of the men in question, we can judge their actions against what is acceptable in our society.

Back to the Vick situation, I suspect dogfighting may be more widespread among some sports stars then we know. There was a basketball player in Portland (since traded to another team) who was suspected of participating.


"... Investigators from the Oregon Humane Society and the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office searched Woods' Lake Oswego home Oct. 11 and again Oct. 15 following a television news report alleging he had abandoned Hollywood and that she appeared to have bite wounds.

Court records showed that investigators found bloody paw prints in a room above Woods' garage.

First-degree animal abuse, a misdemeanor, is punishable by up to a year in jail and a $6,250 fine. Woods' community service must be served within nine months and he must work a minimum of 8 hours a day for 10 days. ... "

ESPN - Forward admits dog wasn't cared for properly - NBA

I am probably going to hell for saying this, but i think he deserves to have all of those poor innocent dogs that are trained to KILL get turned on HIM. He can be the defenseless one while a pack a wild dogs go to town.

If anyone can't tell I HATE MICHAEL VICK.

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Shauna

fair enough. but, it is perfectly acceptable TO ME that a sports star, or any one else, attend a cockfight in a country that allows them. it may not be what I'd do, but it's certainly OK with me if Pedro wants to attend such an event. who am i to deny his culture?

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

To a certain extent I see your point but ... these men are heros in the eyes of many and their actions on and off the playing field are idolized so its not acceptable TO ME. An adult can rationalize such an activity as you have done by saying it is a cultural thing but children don't have the ability to make that distinction. A video on youtube will be seen by lots of kids and whether the activity was taped here or in another country won't matter to them. IMO, these men are participating in our "culture" by making millions of dollars as stars in a sport we enjoy so perhaps they should give some consideration to our cultural sensibilities.

Just curious, what do you think about bullfights? As far as cultural sensibilities are concerned, I just think that we don't have any snesibilities. It's not OK to have dogs or cocks fight in the US, but it is OK to have humans fight. Really strange to me. Yeah, I know the argument that the animals don't have the choice, but I also think it's part of their inbred nature....so I don't buy it and to me, they are just animals. Let her rip!

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I hate bullfights, rodoes, and thoroughbred horse racing. I dislike the human activities of boxing, wrestling, and football. When a bull or a dog or a horse can sign a contract like the fighter, wrestler and football player can saying they understand the consequences of the activity they are about to participate in then I'll say let her rip too!!

[quote=ana21;2951814]I hate bullfights, rodoes, and thoroughbred horse racing. I dislike the human activities of boxing, wrestling, and football. When a bull or a dog or a horse can sign a contract like the fighter, wrestler and football player can saying they understand the consequences of the activity they are about to participate in then I'll say let her rip too!![/QUOTE


A person knows what they're signing up for, train for it , and most importantly has an incentive, like money. With an animal, like pitbulls, they have no choice and are forced to partake in fighting. What do they get out of it? Where's the comparison?

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

I take it you don't have any pets.

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Shauna

No, I do not. But I do have children, and it blows my mind that we (US citizens as a whole) don't show the same level of vehemence toward ill treatment of children. That's really my point.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I must be feeling argumentative this morning but I think we do. Are you thinking of a specific situation where in your eyes that has not been the case.

Since when?

I've seen people go CRAZY on the ill treatment of children and rightly so. Laws have been enacted due to the ill treatment and violence against children.

Haven't there been threads on this very board of such topics?

As far as it being in animals nature to fight, etc....to a POINT. Animals fight out of instinct when there's an issue between THEM. That's nature. There's worlds of difference between that and what Vick did. He took animals that had no control and made them do what he wanted. I'm sorry, but the same should be done to him. He needs to KNOW what it feels like to be in that situation. He doesn't have the first clue.

As far as your children issue...I don't really get it. I've seen on the internet, TV and boards massive outcries against hurt children. I'm very surprised you haven't.

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He got off easy!! If that were me or you, we would be in prison.....celebrities always have exceptions made for them....sherri

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"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

The US hasn't tried to 'impose' our standards on the Dominican Republic's deplorable conduct regarding cockfighting. However, these men made their money right here in the US and so it's perfectly natural that US citizens should note when their sports 'heros' are sick, twisted individuals. These men didn't merely attend a cockfight (bad enough) but actually tossed the roosters to their death. The fact that they did it in a country that allows it is only important in that they won't be criminally charged. It doesn't make the act any less wrong.

Huh? How can you claim that people in the US feed animals better than we feed our children and that we spend more on animal health care than we do on child health care? What foreign group is feeding you this line of bull? LOL! Do you actually believe these ridiculous statements?

No one 'expects' these monsters to behave well. We just like to point out when they don't. And we really do have the 'right' to do so.

Let's say that these same men married 9 year old girls against their will and raped them, (which by the way, is PERFECTLY LEGAL in some parts of the world). Would you still feel that we have no right to even mention it? If the Dominican Republic decided to allow 'Childfighting' instead of cockfighting, would you still think that the child's torture and murder was OK just because they decided to make it legal? Does your global live and let live policy also encompass the torture and murder of defenseless children or only the torture and murder of defenseless animals?

Torturing and killing animals for pleasure is reprehensible and torturing and killing animals for pleasure in a country that allows it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Well said Cougar, thanks!

I don't think he received enough of a sentence. I f someone did these thing to a human, they would go away for a long long time. In most states hurting an animal is a misdemeanor. I personally don't like any sport that involves fighting, animal or human. That is one of the reasons I don't like football, it's almost like fighting. I also don't like hockey because of the fights. I absolutely hate boxing. I can't comprehend people who like to watch someone get hurt for entertainment or bet on it.
jmo,
Judy

I'm pretty sure conducting dog fights is a federal offense, far worse than a misdemanor as it should be.

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Shauna

Very well-said.

I trust that you all are vegetarians, correct? And that you refuse medical treatment that may have been developed using animal research? Because those animals don't have a say in their destiny either. Or maybe you draw some different line if it's for a purpose that you deem worthwhile......just playing devil's advocate here.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Wow...to me, there is a HUGE difference between dog fighting (for money and some kind of sick fun), and medical research or food supply. Do you not see the difference? Maybe this hits home to me because I own a pitbull. Hayden is the best dog we have ever had. We rescued him from a local humane society. He is loving, gentle and well behaved. When I look into his eyes I see nothing but love, and happiness. He is a huge part of our family and I cannot imagine the life that those poor Pitbulls had to endure at the hands of such a cruel, sick person. I cannot help but feel that anyone who could torture an animal the way Vick did, has some serious mental problems. That is just not normal. Normal people don't find a need to torture and kill anything for no other reason than *fun* or * money*, be it a human or an animal. Now, having said that let me add that I do know there are times when killing is done for the purpose of food. My great grandfather was the most loving man I had ever known, or will ever know. We often discussed the issue of hunting. I hated that he hunted and it took many years of our long discussions before I finally came to understand his feelings in regards to the issue. He killed deer to supply food for his family. He didn't torture them, he didn't drown them or beat them with a baseball bat, and he didn't do it to make money. He did it to supply his family with meat to survive the long cold winter. He was a very caring man who had many pets over the years that he loved, and cared for, and would never raise his gun to kill...just for the thrill of killing. I do see the difference between that and dog fighting. Can you not see a difference?

The important word in your statement/question is purpose. There is a worthwhile purpose to animal research although to be honest I wish it wasn't necessary (and in lots of cases probably isn't). What purpose exactly is there to dog or cock fighting except for entertaining a group of wretched individuals.

I think your argument is out of gas cj

Great, great post Tammy. Thank you!!

Think what you want about my "argument" - and I'll think what I want. It isn't really an argument anyways....I'm just stimulating discussion.

Hunting is for a purpose? Or is it for entertainment? Do you freak out when you go out to eat at Bugaboo Creek Steakhouse? My son does - or should I say that he doesn't, because he refused to go there. He thinks the taxidermy animals are absolutely disgusting and unnecessary. But it's entertainment...that apparently a lot of people enjoy as I think that restaurant chain is doing fine.

Nowhere did I ever attempt to justify dog fighting in the US. I do think that rooster or cockfighting or bullfighting in a Latin American country is a cultural event and it doesn't really get me all cranked up as it seems to others. I do think that hunting is a cultural event in certain parts of the US, although I personally think it's a pretty yucky pasttime.

And I do think that the media and people in the US make a big deal about animal cruelty whenver it is uncovered, but I think that there are an awful lot of children who are being neglected and hurt and their story is never told. From a priority standpoint, I think we need to attend to humanity first, beasts a distant second, third, or fourth.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I'm with you on this point, CJ





Editing to say that beasts should be second - not necessarily distant...

Cruelty SHOULD be made a big deal of whenever it's uncovered - of any BEING. For me, it's always been anyone who I feel is "helpless" than the average joe - an animal, a child or an elderly person. Two grown, strapping men? Let me whap the tar out of each other, wouldn't bother me at all.

I really don't get where you're coming from on the children thing. I've heard tons of stories over the years brought to light and focused on. I've also heard stories about animals as well, but they weren't as such a hoopla. I know this one is for some different reasons, but I agree that is IS a big deal.

As far as "research" goes, I don't like it either. My husband doesn't like buying anything by companies who use animals in their research. Unfortunately, while I can be as upset about it as I want, I don't have an alternative answer. I would not make a good "arm-chair research quarterback".

Is EVERY child's story told? No. Does a huge fuss get made about the ones that are? YES. I think you're completely wrong on that issue, there's plenty of "big deal" made about kids in trouble or being treated badly.

I don't know how many people responded in this thread, but it seems as if most if not all feel the same way. I know you said you were looking for discussion what else can really be said?

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Your son sounds like my kind of kid. I wouldn't eat in a resturant with the word "bug" in its name either.

Ambriana - While you hear the atrocious child abuse stories, there are many, many more unacceptable situations that children live in where their voices are not heard. There are many, many children who are returned by DSS to unhealthy (at best) homes. I simply do not think that Pedro Martinez attending a cockfight in the Dominican Republic is worth the time and effort that is being invested in it (oops, that would be by me, too! )

If you don't think anything more needs to be said, you have the option of not responding to or not reading this thread, but I don't think you should be telling me to shut up. That's ridiculous - especially from a community leader/moderator. Good heavens!

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

How can every single story of every single situation possibly be told? I don't see how it can. There are also stories told LOCALLY that nationally, we don't hear about. You might not hear of some issues going on 800 miles from here you live. While the story is being told there and the surrounding area, it might not make national, but it IS out there.

Yeah, I sort of feel a little "Good heavens!" coming on myself. If that "moderator" under my name bothers you so much, I'm sorry about that. I'm not going to whip up a new name just to be able to talk. Just because I have access to some board functions, doesn't mean I don't have the right to speak. I've been a leader here for many years and I've NEVER EVER told anyone to shut up. I'm certainly not going to start now. I didn't tell you to shut up. You took it that way. I'm sorry about that, but I can't control how you might take a question. I think some of these comments along the lines of "oh my GOSH, a MODERATOR!!!" are pretty riduculous, too.

That being said..

I've been getting the impression that you're looking for something. Part of discussion is looking for ideas or thoughts. I'm wondering what it is you're looking for. I honestly just didn't understand what it was. I don't know if I'm not reading your posts in depth enough, or I'm just not getting it. Hence the QUESTION - not a statement, a thought, or idea telling you to shut up - the question "what else can be said"?

Stated another way - what are you looking for? Is it something particular? I got the feeling that you're hoping/wanting the discussion to head a particular way and I was just curious what it was. I thought I understood what was in your posts, but maybe I got off track somehow and I'm misunderstanding something.

*shrug* That was all really, sans drama.

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All other ethics aside, a man who'd be cruel to an animal isn't one I'd trust to be kind to a child or a wife. I'd rather see someone be punished for hurting an animal than see how far their cruelty can escalate.

You know I'm often accused of just wanting to argue or trying to start something on these boards. Which is generally not the case. Usually I am just voicing my opinion, explaining why I feel/think the way I do and sometimes defending my opinion.
But, I do believe that some people here do post just to get a rise out of people. And quite frankly, I think cj is one of those people.

That being said, Micheal Vick and at least one of his brothers have proven to be despicable human beings. Vick has always been a loud mouthed braggart. And this was not his first run-in with the law. His brother intentionally tried to injure an opposing player (in a college game) by stomping on the player's leg. As well as having several run-ins with the law. I said all that to say--Vick has shown what kind of person he is long before the dog fighting. Pedro and the other baseball players--I have no idea if this it the first "scandal", or what kind of behaviour they have exhibited. I want judge them on the one occurrent that I know of.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I don't necessarily think we extend more rights to animal victims. I would think if someone killed 2 people, they would also get punished, and get more than 5 years. My problem is with the way the laws are, and how criminals can plea bargain, use the insanity defense, etc. I think the problem is with the laws..

I think animals (I think you referred to them as beasts) deserve rights, as well. How pompous of us to think we are so "IT" that we can do whatever we want to something that is less powerful than us. I think in the "human world" they call that bullying.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

For what its worth, the Michael Vick part of this thread is 5 or 6 months old. It was recently brought to the top by the addition of the link to the Pedro Martinez video and my recent comments are relative to that "news", not the Michael Vick case. (Post #21 and on....)

I see a world of difference between Michael Vick's activities and those of a local "hero" (Pedro Martinez) throwing out the cock at the Coliseo Gallistico de Santo Domingo (Santo Domingo Cockfighting Coliseum) in Santo Domingo, the Dominican Republic's biggest cockfighting venue. Cockfighting is legal and popular in the Dominican Republic (note that they have a coliseum for this activity, not someone's backyard). That Americans would lambast this baseball player for partaking in his cultural heritage simply because he was recruited to come to the US to play ball is totally beyond me. Why should we look down on him because he partook in legal, local festivities while visiting his native land? Ridiculous! (IMO)

Forget all my references to children, that is a priority issue that I also don't comprehend, but was noise that I shouldn't have thrown into my posts.

Other than that, I give up. As Ambrianna points out, I seem to be the only person who does not think that Pedro's actions (the latest subject of this thread, not the Michael Vick issue) are not deplorable.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

For what its worth, there is a more well-rounded, multi-sided discussion of this subject where the video was posted:

Video of Martinez at Cockfight Surfaces - AOL Sports


cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips