Scenario.....

I have kids, it's my responsibility to feed and house them and care for them in all areas. Then they become school age, which in some cases now is as young as 3 or 4 and I am expected to send them to head start or some other pre-shool program. And in the case of head start, it is free of charge. Costs me nothing and that free education which is paid for by the govt. continues through HS.

Why is education not the responsibility of the parent as well as everything else? We are so upset about govt. programs, but all of us readily use all the educational programs? And if we have a child with special needs, it is of course the school districts responsibility to meet any special requirements that may occur, and that could mean hiring staff.

I know that different programs are funded differently. So, the question is less about funding than it is our mentality, how we think.



PLEASE don't flame me........this is not how I feel, the other discussion just made me think. Kind of just mulling it over, not a formed opinion, ok?

We decided to homeschool because we felt that our children's education and what they did and DIDN"T learn was our choice, not the governments. And in some states it is not legal to hs, so all this talk of responsibility of the parent ends at education??? just mulling, like I said....

Melissa

i agree to an extent this is one reason i volunteer at my childs elementary school.
I am up there every chance i have free time.Volunteering in school classes,parties,field trips,school store which we the pto volunteers supply with items to sell,spirit week,running fund raisers,ive also just recently bought 3 children shoes and coats(im not rich just a very wise shopper the coats cost 3.00 each and the shoes were the same)This is my way of "giving back/paying it forward" there are many parents that do just put their kids on the bus forget about them until they get home some parents dont qualify for the "free" lunch program so we(pto) have started out of our own pocket the lunch bucket its where we make sure all the kids eat if they dont have lunch money or get free lunch.And you do pay a registeration at the beginning of the school year at least i did my DD was 40 as she is in 4K and my son was 50 then theres lunches at about 10 a week for each then schoo, supplies for each then the teachers send home "needed" or wish lists of items they are running out of at least 1x every 3-6months i try to send someting for each one thats another at least 10 each every 3-6months.So school isnt as free as you may think at least not for some of us.

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i'M THE TYPE

OF GIRL WHO WILL BUST OUT

LAUGHING ABOUT SOMETHING

THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY

Yes, it is. The problem is that not everyone feels this way. Some feel a sense of entitlement to have the taxpayers assume that responsibility. They receive food stamps, free or reduced rent housing, WIC, money, and free lunches so they are not meeting their responsibilities as parents. They may have a good reason or they may not but the fact remains, they aren't doing their job. They need or want help to raise the children they created. I'm sure I'll get flamed but it's a fact. If you're on welfare or public assistance, you aren't pulling your weight and someone else is picking up your slack.

No, not all of us. My children are being educated in private schools. I pay their tuition so along with personally educating my own children, I also help educate other people's.

Don't be too sure that your special needs kids are getting any special help.
Due to budget cuts, my daughter just lost her job working with special needs kids.
She is one of the few in her school who would work one-on-one with special kids.
Now, if they have one at all, it will be someone who prefers not to work in special ed.

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Square dancing is friendship set to music!

my tax dollars pay for my childrens schooling. My taxes are high, and the schools are great. I will continue to pay my taxes when my children are out. This is a non issue to me.
In our area, there are very few private schools, some seminary types that cost more than my oldest's ds's tuituion at college. Parochial schools have closed and consolidated and are now so far away it would not be convenient to send the kids there. I like our public schools, and I feel I pay for it, as I have before my kids used it and will continue to once they are done

I agree. My kids education is not "free". We pay for it in taxes, school fees, and volunteer hours and the taxes don't end when my kids are out of school

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

We pay taxes for educating children, ALL children. I think educating children will better our country as a whole. The bulk of our property taxes goes to Education. After high school, it is up to the child, or their parents/family if they want to continue their education.

I do think people w/out children in public schools should be afforded some sort of tax credit (like a dependent deduction) on their annual taxes.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I AGREE with this statement.

ITA, although I've never had a child in public school I consider the taxes I pay to fund them payback for the public school education I received and my responsibility as a member of the community. I have little sympathy for those who make the choice to homeschool or send their children to private school and want a tax refund because they've opted out of the public school system. We all pay taxes for services that sometimes don't directly benefit us.

Which is precisely why I support a voucher system that allows any parent to choose any school they want, regardless of location. Government school and even private/parochial schools would improve tremendously if people were allowed the FREEDOM to choose what is best for their child(ren).

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I want to keep ALL of my paycheck and eliminate the pyramid scheme known as Social Security (there is no lockbox ). Do you want the same thing? www.fairtax.org

I think this was the OP's point. Why don't people get upset over paying school taxes but freak out over knowing their tax dollars are providing food to low income children and families. Why do people feel fine about providing tax dollars to provide government schooling to all children, regardless of income level but we are reading many, many complaints about how low income families use their food stamps, spend what money they do have, etc. I *do* understand the frustration of seeing folks make poor financial choices - REGARDLESS of their income level. In fact it doesn't bother me at all to see a mom buy some cookies for her kids with her food stamps (perhaps that's the only treat they get all month, perhaps they only have a hot plate to cook on) but reading about the mortgage bail out definitely gets to me at times :-)

For the OP, if you haven't yet read it, _Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense_ by David Guterson gives an excellent background on the introduction of government schooling to this country.

I don't homeschool, but would definitely be for a voucher or refund of some sort while people are homeschooling.

A couple who homeschools will pay property taxes for all of their adult lives, most likely. Probably for about 60 years! If they choose to homeschool their kids for thirteen years worth of schooling, I think it's fine to give them a reprieve from the portion of their property taxes attributable to the local school district through those years. They'll still be spending about 45 years of their life paying into the taxes that support the public schools.

Yes, there are a number of services our taxes support that don't benefit me directly, but none of them, at least in my case, are as expensive as the taxes that support our schools. On my $150K house, we pay about $2,800 / year towards public school taxes. That's $225/month taxation on that single service which we will only make use of for 15 years yet will pay towards for many, many, many more.

I understand that we all benefit, as a society, from an educated population base. No doubt about that. We also all benefit from our highway system, but people who don't buy cars don't pay anything to support their state highways (at least in my state). Those are all covered by car tag sales and sales taxes on vehicles. And yet, non-drivers benefit greatly from the presence of our highways that allow for the delivery of goods and services to their locales, etc.

Wow.

I just did some quick math.

If I live to be 80and our tax rates don't go up penny, my husband and I will have contributed $168,000 in taxes to our public schools.

Did you calculate the cost of educating how ever many children you have for 13 years based on the cost per pupil in yoru school district? Just curious how that would work out.


cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I didn't - I don't have what is allocated per pupil each year, but could probably find out.

One interesting thing in our state is that the school district is allocated a lump sum of state aid based on the number of school-aged students in your district, regardless of where those children are educated. We are a town of under 8,000, and have three parochial schools and a decent number of homeschoolers. Each public school class in the elem. school has around 90 students. The parochials don't have high schools, so all but the homeschoolers ultimately feed into our public high school, where there are about 125ish per class. So, during the elem. years, the school is collecting money for seven grades (K-5) for about 125 kids, while they are actually only educating 90 in each grade. Counting parochial school students alone, that means they collect overhead for 245 more students than tney actually educate... and then there are homeschoolers, too. Most parochials here go through 8th, but it's not uncommon for familes from the parochials to start to assimilate their kids to public during middle school.

Businesses pay incredibly high property taxes, and yet they have no "children" and never will.

Our prop. taxes run around $3,000. $2,800 goes to the schools. The remainder is for things like the county fair, parks and rec, etc.

I have to think if I were to homeschool my kids and be given a budget of $168K to pull it off, I probably could. We'd have some awesome field trips!;-)

Even to get a $2,800 tax break during those years to buy supplies would be helpful.

Long Island has some of the highest property taxes in the country. (Precisely why my dh wants us to move when he retires.) My tiny house with no basement costs me somewhere around $6000 in taxes with over $4000 going to the schools. Fortunately I loved my local public schools and yes I did volunteer there regularly. My kids got a great education (especially when they got to college, they were surprised at how well prepared they were).

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Because people see a positive outcome to their tax dollars being spent on educating children - and perhaps not vice versa?
Because people do have some say in how the money is spent within their school districts (via school board open session, elections, etc)?

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

That, and the fact that public schools are available to everyone.

Imagine if they taxed us to support public schools, but only let kids whose parents claimed an inability to afford home ed supplies attend. Then the very parents who claimed that inability were seen boarding planes for Europe and dining at Outback 3X/week.

reannag, that was my point. It's all in our perception and how some "handouts" have long been accepted and are now our rights as citizens. I agree that educating our children benefits society, that's obvious, but let's be honest, for many reasons there are many kids not being educated, so this handout isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

We did homeschool for many years, yet I never felt it wasn't my obligation to continue to pay my taxes so other's could take advantage of the school system. It's just the way it is. And, wowitsdark, our school system actually loses the funding for kids who are homeschooled. I think that's part of the reason many school systems oppose hsing.

Opaldancing....it's lovely for you that you are able to afford to educate your own children and other ppl's children as well. I did the same thing, but for a lot cheaper I bet!! lol But not everyone is as fortunate as you, and that is just the way the world is. Some ppl are always going to need help, that's just the way it is. Why be so bitter toward those that are less fortunate, for whatever reason?

Melissa

I don't have kids. I gladly pay taxes for good school systems. Why? Because well-educated kids make for a better society.

I saw some similar comments in the other thread (that darling Mary poofed! )

It's NOT about feeling bitter towards those less fortunate.
It's not about being heartless and mean and all "watch-dogy" on less fortunate folks. I'm not sure how some are seeing that type of thought presented, I'm not getting that at all.

It's about those who AREN'T less fortunate expecting hand outs because they can get them.
It's about taking what shouldn't be taken - taking for the sake of taking may not be legally wrong, but it's wrong on every other level under the sun.
It's about people setting the above examples for their children that it's okay to skim what freebies you can, regardless of whether you need them or not - the "me me me" mentality. And it will go on and get worse from generation to generation, ad nauseum.



It's unfortunate the other thread is gone, many folks made some excellent points that paint a pretty clear picture, being bitter towards the needy is not what this was all about.

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Exactly!

After May this year I will no longer have any kids in public schools - I have no problem paying school tax as long as I live. While my kids were in school there were retired people and people w/o children who paid their taxes so my children could get an education and I'll continue paying my taxes for the next generation.

It's what we do as a society.

I have never had to call for a police officer nor a fireman, would we even consider not paying the taxes that go to support them just because we don't use their services? No...it's like an investment. Like our kids.

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Mary

Tech is still looking for a way to undo my blunder...

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Mary

Well said!

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Mary

How is public education a hand out??? Children are REQUIRED to attend school up to a certain age.

There is a big difference between paying for education, and paying for someone else's bad choices.

If you were to give a "friend" $150 so they could buy groceries, wouldn't you be a little upset if you saw them then buying cigarettes or going out to dinner???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Like I said in my first post, this is not necessarily how I feel re: taxes for schools vs. taxes for welfare. Just mulling. I think that we get used to some handouts and it doesn't seem bad after a while. I think that is what has happened with school lunches, WIC etc. The ppl that get it and expect it are being taught that by the ppl who promote these programs. In the 20 years since my other two were babies, the thinking about WIC has changed. Ppl expect it, like it's just part of having kids........it's not a hand out in their thinking. I don't agree or disagree...just saying that's how I see it.

I'm going to look up the book mentioned earlier and find out more about public ed in the beginning.

As far as school requirements...........I was a homeschooler, I didn't like that someone else was telling me what to do with my children. (wow, that's a whole other dicussion! lol)

And if I did give a afriend money, I wouldn't like it if they spent the way I expected them to, but I have no control over anyone but me.

That's actually a pretty good analogy.

Government schools could be equated to a hand-out because the people using them aren't the only ones paying for them. Also, while many people expressed anger or a desire to moniter what low income families do with their food stamps, what cash they have , etc. - no one seems to have thought about the child who blows off homework, classes, etc. that you, the taxpayer, have paid for. If we are going to dictate what people on welfare, free lunch, WIC, etc. do with their money, why aren't we dictating what children and their parents do with their tax funded education? And, probably more to the point, who the heck gets to decide what is dictated? I personally don't feel it is any of my business what someone uses their food stamps to buy, provided they are using them legally (meaning they aren't selling them on the streets to buy drugs or, as one woman did, to buy a house ) but for other folks, they are very upset at the idea of someone using food stamps to buy chips or cookies. I know that for myself, I don't want a "big brother" telling what I can and can't do with my income because I take part in a tax-funded program. Both my husband and I work, we pay taxes, and two of our children receive reduced price (.25) lunches at school. I'm sure there are many who would disagree with some of our financial choices (when the much-debated Tax Rebate arrives, in addition to paying bills we plan to buy a trampoline for our two youngest children and we will give some money to our oldest daughter who works two jobs, raises her toddler and, yes, receives Food stamps and WIC) I know that there are many who would feel that we should use that money to buy our children school lunches instead.

Okay, I should know better than to post so late at night when I'm tired :-) I need to add that I fully understand the anger that comes from seeing people abuse a system meant to help people who are struggling. But I do think that no matter who's situation we look at, it is very easy to point at things that we, not being in their situation, think they should do differently. And since each of us has different life experiences, different values, etc, each of us are going to have a different idea of what those things are.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm as disappointed and distressed about students who don't take advantage of their primary education and even more so of parents who do not insist that they do so - as I am about the poor choices of those on other government assistance. All need training to do their best and to be held accountable for the results.

But as far as education is concerned, there are "dictates" and some accountability in place....there are expectations of both academic prorgress and behavior, there are grades and graduation requirements, there are tests, etc. So I don't think it's an apple-to-apple comparison that you're making.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

What grinds my gears (quoting Peter Griffin he he) is renters that pay zip. Thats not fair. I am all for the elderly being given a credit. Perhaps school taxes should be an income tax instead of a property tax. I am not sure what would be more expensive for us, we both work and our property taxes are high, but there are a few upscale apt complexes around with lots of kids who pay zilch.

Yes, I pretty much echo this sentiment, and believe that there ARE things in place for the kids who don't do well in school, skip school, etc. We're talking about two different situations (education and gov't assistance/welfare).

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I was just thinking about this the other day, actually. Do the people that own the apt. complex pay school taxes??? An interesting thing to look into.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yep..some of your federal taxes dollars go to pay for the Dept. of Education...which your local school gets money from also.
Also some states have certain portions of state taxes, lottery ticket sales, etc. that money goes to schools.
The money used by schools systems come from several "tax" dollar places.

It's all about the children. We cannot let children starve or go stupid for two reasons. First and formemost it's our DUTY as citizens of the community and as Children of God to care for innocent and not so innocent children. Secondly if we don't ensure they are properly educated and physically cared for we will pay for it later. We will pay both by having to bear medical and other costs as well as by being robbed etc by children who never had a chance from the day they were born.

Children need not suffer because the adults in their lives are ignorant, drug addled, alcoholic, lazy, etc. And I know it's hard for most people to believe but there are those who never learned a thing, no social skills, no common sense, no work ethic, perhaps they grew to be adults in a home of lawbreaking and drug using. They have a child and they know they want something better than what they had but they have no idea how to go about it.


We need to not be so judegemental. I am not perfect neither is anyone else. Congratulations you take care of your children now help your "neighbor" "brother" or "sister" do the same. And don't lord it over people just be compassionate and realize "there but for the grace of God go I".

And get those negative hateful thoughts out of your head. Replace them with loving positive ones.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

That's why I wrote "could be", I don't think it's an apple-to-apple comparison either but I do understand where the OP is coming from with her pondering of this topic.

As far as the testing, grades, etc. that are in place in Government schools - many experts think that American schools are continuing to fail to hit the mark in many areas. There are waves of what is en vogue in education (as with anything else) and while there was a time when a child would be held back if they didn't do well, it has been the practice for over a decade now to simply move them forward regardless of ability or performance. Eventually the tide will turn and the practice will change again but, as with anything that is run by the government, change is very slow :-)

I forgot to mention that with the prices of gas and food and shrinking hours and pay for the common working person and all the money the govt is wasting overseas the least they can do is feed the kids of the people who keep this country going. Everyone who gets "services" is not on welfare or unemployed. Some people work more than one job and cannot make ends meet.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

The building owner pays the tax -- which he/she funds through rent. So renters do pay -- it's just indirectly.

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

Thank you reannag and annadrose.........you are making my point better than I!! lol

I've been busy a few days....sorry I haven't posted.

Anyway, compassion and understanding is so important. We just can't know the "whole story" so why judge. I am so guilty of judging as well, but am trying to learn to not do it so quickly.

And as far as there being measures in place to assure ppl are taking full advantage of the school system...first of all, the public school system is all too often failing and second of all, there are measures in place for the WIC, food stamp program etc...as well. It's just that no system is perfect and never will be.

Melissa

I noticed you said you'd glady pay taxes for good school systems. That's my problem. The public school education system is going down the toilet. Our children aren't being taught. Just look at some of the MySpace pages that high school students make. Their spelling is horrible, as well as their grammar. Look at some of their blogs. Go to a store where a teen is working and give them a little math test with your money. Without a cash register to tell them how much to give back, most can't do it, especially if you give them like an extra penny or two so you won't get back a handful of change. It totally freaks them out. It's nationwide and not just locally. Our public school education system is doing a horrible job educating our children. There's no control in the classroom. How can teachers teach when they're having so much disruption in the classroom because kids know that the teachers can't do anything to them. There are no consequences.

Why should my tax dollars go to a public school system that is letting our future generation down? Nothing short of 'dumbing down' our kids. I agree in the voucher system and homeschooling.

This is a short, interesting article ... These studies were from 2003. I have not seen newer information released yet.

U.S. falls in education rank compared to other countries | The Kapio

"researchers ranked the United States No. 18 out of 24 nations in terms of the relative effectiveness of its educational system."

"The UNICEF report finds that educational success or failure is not directly linked to funding, and that there is no clear link between student-to-teacher ratios and test results.
By international standards, the United States spends a lot of money on education, and in terms of class sizes, a lot of countries that do well have larger class sizes than the United States, Marsh said.

Marsh said that he attributes U.S. rankings to a different set of reasons —namely, the way material is being taught in classrooms."

So the schools suck right now. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is all we have and everyone must have access to a free education and every child needs food. PERIOD.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I agree, there are shortfalls in the education system. I'm going to start another thread to discuss that

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'll gladly pay taxes for a not-so-great one too. In fact, I do. There is no alternative for a lot of kids. Unfortunately, the short-sighted people of the town I live in just defeated an override to a cap on increases that was put in place over a decade ago. Geez, you get what you pay for.

I have always been a firm believer in public education. I also live in the South, and unfortunantly we are known for our bad school systems. However, I transferred from a private school when I was in the 9th grade to a public school, and I just thought it was the greatest. I think I receieved a fantastic education, and had many more opportunites than I would have had I stayed in private. I also think it's good socially. I was exposed to a much larger group of people than I would have been. Also, for what it's worth, it's not up to me to decide who needs a free lunch and who doesn't. Just because some parents could afford to buy their kids lunch, but decide not too, doesn't mean that they would. To some parents, a nice ride, drugs or alcohol is more important to them than their kids eating. Those kids would end up going without. There's no need for that. No one knows what exactly takes place in a family, and no one should begrudge a child getting a free meal. For all we know, that could be the only meal they are getting that day!

I did not read that people are faulting or begruding the children. I think it's the choices of the parents that are in question...at least that's the way I am reading it.

Kids rule, parents drool!

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips