I just noticed we haven't started a thread on the State of Texas and their raid on the cult sect compound in Texas. I just heard on the news last night that the judge has decided that all the children (over 400 of them) are to be kept in the custody of the State, put in foster homes, DNA tests to be done on the children and mothers (and fathers if they can figure out who is who!). This is a branch of the Warren Jeffs cult, who was arrested last year for rape, sex with minors, etc.

Older men 'marrying' young children (as young as 12), having sex with them and getting them pregnant and the older women say nothing. I've been watching them on TV and with the way they answer their questions, it reminds me of Stepford Wives or brainwashing.

I also heard that it's our tax dollars supporting this 'ranch' because the women and children apply for welfare, which in turn, they give the money over to the men.

I feel sorry for the children involved in this but I'm glad this one in Texas has been exposed and hopefully these young children can have some type of normal life eventually.

So what's your opinion on this?

Those older women who are saying nothing have been raised to think this is normal themselves. These aren't women who were kidnapped and brainwashed - they are woman who likely were married off at the age of 12 themselves, and so to them, they are protecting the only way of life they know. Oddly, I feel very sorry for them.

It's the men who marry and impregnate those young girls that I have no sypmpathy for. Somehow, they are interacting with the outside world in a pretty lucrative way, based on the size of those compounds, which appear to be very new structures. While I perceive that the women have all been isolated from the world, I think the men do plenty of exchange - at least on an economic basis - and understand that they are engaged in mind control.

It's so horrible and complicated. I actually feel for everyone (children and both men and women) because I believe it's all they've ever known. They think this is the right way to live, and have always thought of the outsiders as WILD and promiscuous and immoral. If you consider that they've only been fed negative information about the outside world, and that they believe that they are living the way God wants them to, then it's hard not to pity them all.

I hope that the children who go into foster care end up with caring families that are sensitive to this particular subculture. So much damage could be done (and probably WILL be done) as families try to take them in and likely attempt to "normalize" them. I mean, how is the government seriously going to find families for all 416 children that will be able to provide any level of consistency - are they all prepared to home-school these kids? If not, the poor children will be in for serious culture shock!

I am very worried about the children, and am devastated for their parents (mothers AND fathers). What we think we understand about the polygamist world is extremely disturbing, but if that's the only world they've ever known (and believed in), what would that do to ANYONE'S concepts of what is right and what is wrong?

Some of them will probably embrace the outside world and its opportunities, but I think the vast majority will continued to be severely troubled for life.

(I'm assuming that most of the fathers were taught the same limited things about life as their wives).

Were there any men who lived in the compound? So far, I'll I've seen were mothers and children.

Personally, I think the men should go to jail and the mothers should get the kids. My guess is that the women were married off when they were very young themselves and really had no say in the matter, so I don't hold them responsible in the same way I do the men.

Then again, if a mother allowed her own young daughter to have the same fate she had... to those of us on the outside, we understand how sick and wrong that is.

They've been fed a serious dose of KoolAid since birth, and our own law enforcement has turned a blind eye. They are truly victims of a lifetime of brainwashing. The men likely were, as well, but since they are the ones with all the power, I hold them to a higher standard.

I'm glad they raided it..those children need to be protected and rescued from their 'fathers' and 'husbands' in their sick forked family tree, those grown men are nothing but pervert pedophiles. And protected from the moms, I am sure the moms love their children but they are in a cult, they are brainwashed, not capable of protecting their own children if they think it's ok for their little girls to be married off to nasty old perverts at the age of 13,14,whatever.

Also interesting how all the moms left the children and went back to the compound..some could have stayed with their children and they left :-( just goes to show the power those sick sick men have over those women and and that the women are totally under control. No way would I leave my kids if I had a choice.

I hope they do the same thing and raid all the other locations where this cult is found, they are in Utah, they are way out in the moutains at the other end of Colorado, I think they have 2 compounds actually in CO. I don't understand the part of the story about law enforcement having an informant living there for like, 4 years, but nothing was done until now! WTH is up with that. I imagine they don't want another Waco situation but something needs to be done when children are known to be abused by a cult group. Sick and sad all the way around.

If anybody is fed the same information all their lives, and then suddenly the information is judged by an outside source as being all wrong, then how can anyone not sympathize with all of them who lived and believed this way?

It seems wrong and cruel to us, but we were all taught and raised so differently. I'm pretty sure most of the men we consider "perverts" actually believe that they are doing right by God, and are just misunderstood by the "outside world."

If all you ever knew was this lifestyle, and all the people you ever trusted are being explained to you as "evil" and "perverted" then you would have just as tormented a time coming to terms with everything.

I'm definitely not clear on what the young and old men knew/know. I imagine that most of them were just as groomed for this life as the women and children, and were oblivious to the horrific reality of what this did to the children and women.

I think all the men who married these juveniles should be prosecuted - In Texas if you are under the age of 15 you need a court order to get married. 16-18 you need parental permission and you still need to go to the county clerk's office and swear, as the parent, that you give your consent - I don't think this happened.

Statutory rape should apply to all of them.

Oh, and lets not even get started on the bigamy!

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Mary

as a mother im sorry they are losing thier children but also as a mother i understand where the state needs to step in the mothers were not really protecting thier children(not the way we see they should having sex at 12 and younger being physically,mentally and sexually abused.)i dont believe they didnt have a choice to live thier it was thier choice just as if a drug house got raided and there was a mother there living because they offered her cheap rent food etc but she didnt do drugs if the huse was raided then she would lose her child she wasnt "protecting" that child as well as she could.
just as the women at the compound were not.

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The whole thing is so sad. I feel most sorry for the children. I hope the older children don't get screwed up because of this. Being torn from the only life they have ever known, then experiencing culture shock has got to be very tramatic. I wonder what's going to happen to all those women? Crazy.

Also interesting how all the moms left the children and went back to the compound..some could have stayed with their children and they left :-( just goes to show the power those sick sick men have over those women and and that the women are totally under control. No way would I leave my kids if I had a choice.


Actually, the way I understand it, they did not leave willingly. Only the mothers with children aged four and younger were allowed to stay, as well as mothers who were, themselves, younger than 18. The others were told they had to leave. They were given a choice of going to a woman's shelter or returning to the ranch.

And now, from what I read, the mothers of the young children are also going to have to leave after the DNA testing is completed.

I don't know what to think at this point. It is VERY scary to me to think that your children can be taken from you based on association, without any concrete evidence that your specific child has been abused. I haven't heard they have specific evidence like that for each child.

I am afraid it is a very difficult situation with no easy answers. My heart cries for those poor babes who are surely scared and confused.

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I have no affiliation with any church/cult but let me play devils advocate
If you were a child wouldn't you feel like the "boogie" man had come into your home and stole you? I know I would have.
This cult/church has been allowed to be and thrive for decades under seperation of church and state? Who is violating that law now?
Information that a 16 year old requested help/assistance in her plight was receive. Immediate attention to that call should and has received attention.
Why were all the others taken into custody? They were just living in normal conditions for people of their cult/religion. These people should be given every opportunity to be returned to their compound if it is their choice and given every opportunity to be in the "outside" world with the assistance of every agency and/or program that is afforded to every member of society in this great nation if that is thier choice.
This is not the first time in american history that children were abused in the name of religion. What about the catholic children who were raped and abused repeatedly by church leaders whe were not brought up on charges because they were religious leaders.
What of all the catholic children who were abused in private catholic schools by the nuns, priests and orthers of power.They were smacked ,hit, taped up, ostricised from other childern by order of those in charged, tied up, put into dark rooms or closets for days at a time, during school hours. Mental abuse as well as physical abuse prevailed at some of the schools, not all, but there was no cavelry to ride to their aid!
If you think that all foster houses are "safe" think again. Some are run as puppy mills for children.
How many childern in todays society are being abused? One would be too many.
We need to step up Today and report and follow up on any abuse that we see.
Haven't seen the neighbors child for a while?Inquire where that child is. See a child that is full of sores or bruises find out what happened! Hear anyone verbally and repeatedly abuse ANYONE make it your business to find out and report what is going on.
Children are not the only ones being abused in this great country and it is and should be the obligation of everyone to step up and offer help.

Very sad issue that has not been discussed in this thread is the lost *boys* of this cult... So sad on so many levels.

The lost boys of Colorado City | Salon Life

from what I read <may have changed since I read it thoguh> the 16 year wasnt a part of them, it was a grown woman who felt the need to call attention to the place last I read they was looking for her so not sure whats came of that since I read it.

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We drove through Colorado City, AZ when I was in my early 20's... about 20 years ago. It was a lot smaller then, but there were a good 50 houses there at that time and the houses looked like motels. This cult is not new. I am honeslty glad the woman figured out a way to get the authorities' attention. It's too bad that Warren Jeffs' arrest a couple of years ago didn't get the ball rolling then.

This just baffles me! Do the different wives of the men, and their kids, all live in the same house? They just share the man? Bizarre. I definantly wouldn't fit in there.

My opinion is if there is even a chance that one young girl was forced into sex and marriage then better to act now and ask questions later.

It's disgusting. The men obviously keep the women alienated from society so they won't know there are options for them.

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I know it's probably not the women's fault, but they REALLY creep me out.

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You know....when my dd and I watch Big Love and they show the compound at Juniper Creek, she used to ask me if there were real places like that. I used to tell her no, because I really didn't think they still existed. Guess I was very very wrong.

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A few months ago I read "Desert Wives" by Betty Webb, a fictionalized story about such a group in Utah. According to the book which is based on research done by the author who has lived in the area all her life, many of the law enforcement officers are related to members and give them a "pass".

Ms Webb also wrote in detail about the number of children born with birth defects among such groups due to intermarriage. Here is an article which addresses the birth defects suffered by some of the children.

Casper Star-Tribune Online - Regional

It's a horrendous problem for the State of Texas but I'm hoping other states with similar situations will step up to the plate and do the same.

I'm pretty much a live and let live individual but when young children are involved it's a whole other story.

you should read the book ESCAPE. It is written by Carolyn jessop, one of the women who took her children and left this compound. one of her babies was handicapped and the others shunned him. very very very good book that you wont want to put down.

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Here is the stuff you do not see reported on the news.

I do think there was a better way to deal with this... instead of how it is being handled.

Captive FLDS Children

Captive FLDS Children

Captive FLDS Children

I think it's horrible to see there's still cult's out there. I really don't know what to feel over this. One hand says the men would be placed in jail for the rest of their life's, On the other, I have to wonder if the 'men' also grew up in this type of cult and they believe it's "Normal"to marry a girl this young.

Same with the women, I have to wonder what was going on in their life's that would lead them to this type of cult and subject their Daughters to this kind of abuse from the men there >?<...

So many questions, so few answers

I'm just glad all the kids are safe now, But I do have to wonder how long it will take to 'Deprogram" them from this type of life, the only life most if not all of them knew.

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This web site is made by the people in the cult! Of course, it's going to depict loving and sweet photos and how 'horrible' law enforcement was to them. Would you expect pictures showing old men sexually abusing 12 year old girls on this website? I don't think so. I do feel sorry for the children. They were born into this and have no control over what is going on. From what I understand, the women were given the choice to go to a safe house and only 6 women chose to do that.

The women and men have been told what to say to the media and no more. They don't even give their last names because a lot of them don't know their last names because they switch around wives and children so much! Did anyone notice on the news when they were giving a 'tour' of the place and it showed bunk beds and rows of beds lined up like these kids lived in a dormitory. Like everyone lived together, not as a family unit, but as a group.

DNA of the children and men are taking place now. It will certainly be interesting to see who fathers these children and how young some of these mothers were.

How do you think a better way would have been to have handled this mess? Just wondering since you made the statement.

The photos and videos are taken with others around (mostly the Baptist org. that Gov. Perry has ask to help watch the children).

There are more "peaceful" ways to deal with this.
The Texas gov. knew for years what has been going on there. This just did not happen over night.
They could have done things starting years ago such as... stop the welfare, foodstamps, etc.

This opinion column summons it up very well
"If there are people involved with illegal activies then fine prosecute them"

Nine Moons Blog Archive : Who is next?? Who is next??

Who is next??
Don - April 19, 2008

This deal of the state coming into a community and taking all the children captive because they are “at risk” scares the “H” out of me!

I’m 100% for protecting children from abuse.

But who is next? What about the Amish? They “brainwash” their children into their religous beliefs and way of life. Do you think for a minute that if an Amish girl called in (and in Texas it appears the call may not have even been “real”) and reported any kind of abuse….from physical, to mental, to brainwashing, to being forced into marrying someone - do you think for a moment the state of Pennsylvania would step in and take all the children out of the community to protect them? NO WAY!!

What about the Mennonites, they live in a very close knit community, they “brainwash” their children. They sometimes arrange marriages between members of different colonies. Is that abusive? Is it abusive to be “brainwashed” into believing that living in the colony is best and the outside world is something to be shunned?

What about the Hudderites? They accept some of our modern living ideas, but still live in colonies, and “brainwash” their kids.

What about the Jehovah Witnesses or those Mormons? They shun the outside world in many respects and “brainwash” their kids into their “cult” beliefs. In fact there are people who “help” the poor brainwashed cultists back into the mainsteam again, so something must be wrong…maybe abusive.

This whole Texas FLDS thing is a slippery slope that should have all Americans up in arms. The problem is it’s a small Mormon splinter group….it’s an extremist cult that is involved so it’s ok for the state to come in and take the children away.

If there are people involved with illegal activies then fine prosecute them. If there are men marrying 15 year old girls, by all means go after them to the full extent of the law.

Teaching polygamy, or arranged marriages, or even arranged marriages of under aged girls is not something the state should be involved in. And even if those things are taught it doesn’t give the state the right to capture children and take them away from their families based on those teachings.

Break the law, fine punish those involved. Teach something we don’t like or agree with, legal or illegal too bad it’s one of our freedoms.

Where does it stop? Who is next?

I don't know whom wrote this, but surely YOU don't believe it's Okay for a CHILD to be forced into a marriage at ANY age do you ?...There are laws in place to stop this for a good reason, A child can't / doesn't /shouldn't be force to have sex with a person all because an "Adult" wants them to marry someone they like ! If there were not laws to stop this kind of thinking who's to say at what age a young girl will become sexual with a man of ANY age.Can you imagine a young little girl of say 9 years old being sexual with a man of 50 years ?? or even a young boy of 15 OMG thats plain wrong on ever level !Little girls can get pregnant sometimes at ages of 11 years old, I have a 11 year old Daughter, Never would I dream of her be coming a MOTHER/WIFE and having sex before she's even a Teenager for Pete's sake. This person is SICK to even make such a statement re guarding the law has no place in over seeing young children not being taken advantage of Sick Sick Sick

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When the Amish reach a certain age they are allowed to decide whether they want to stay in the Amish faith.

These people are not given choices. They are born into the cult and the girls are married off to older men while they are a young age .
They are expected to stay.

So, over 400 childeren were taken away and will have to adopt to a new way of life.Its not all that bad.Many of them might even be excited or happy about it.Others will be resentful and may have mental problems.But is just taking away the children going to stop the older women still breeding the cult ways?Well ,taking these 400 children is a good start.Thats 400 less future breeders.The problem is what to do with the rest of the adult breeders.Whats going to stop them?

Are they just going to let them continue to breed in cult ways for another 10 years till theres 400 kids and then do the same thing again?

WOW dolly very good point. I'm guessing the works have already started in forming a new cult as we sit here typing. It's sad to know these children were born into this kind of life style many only knowing this life style.My heart goes out to all of them. Whats sad if the younger children. I'm sure they are so confused over all this and have to wonder why they are not with their brothers, sister, Mother and possible the dad.

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Well, hopefully Children Services will be monitoring this cult in the future and any child found to be a product of polygasm or whatever its called, the child will be taken away.Once the cult realizes that any child created in this manner will be taken away,then , maybe it will stop.

I haven't been following this too closely, but, one thing I was wondering is how these people make a living, or afford to live???? So, they are on gov't assistance??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

While I agree that we should all step up and offer help, you also need to look at the other side of that picture. If ANYONE calls and makes a claim that they think your child is being abused, it is as if your rights as a parent are stripped away. The state can just come in and take your child(ren) based on allegations, not even actual proven facts. That's pretty scary, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, I believe the children in this cult need to be removed from anything going on illegaly (incest, underage sex, inbreeding, and whatever else) but, right now none of this has been proven, has it?

Also, I could pick up the phone right now, and report any one of my neighbors, friends, colleagues, etc., for anything, true or not, I could make it up even, and Child Protective Services will investigate the situation, and possibly remove the children from the home. All based on some person's allegations.

Yes, we need to protect the children, but, we don't need a system that just swoops down and removes people's children, and basically strips them of their rights.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

This is one of the problems the court system is having with this issue. Do they look at them en masse? Or does each individual child have an individual right to have his or her situation evaluated on an individual basis? Say you had a 16 year old married to a 30 year old. And say her mother gave consent, and say she has a baby. There is nothing illegal about any of that. Yes, in our culture it is out of step.... sort of! The thing that makes this seem "out of step" to us is that these people were devoutly religious. If some 16 yo wearing emo clothes, with 22 piercings and several tattoos ran off with a 30 yo man, we'd probably think it was a messed-up situation but that she had a "right" to do it because legally she was of age to marry him.

Another thought that runs through my head is that while I can't remotely envision my own 12 year old daughter married and with a baby, I realize that 120 years ago that wasn't entirely atypical. Women married very very young, had babies very very young, and were quite likely to die in childbirth before they turned 30. Optimal? Not on your life. But culturally, the expected norm. Culture was different, children had heavy responsibilities at very young ages, and even a 12 year old girl was extremely mature because her life necessitated it.

We don't expect much of our kids. Our creature comforts don't necessitate it. Their chores consist of tooth-brushing and homework, rather than 10 hours working in the garden, chopping firewood, and butchering a hog. Consequently, the maturity level for any given age kid is way below what it used to be.

I don't know what kind of life those people lived behind the walls of their compound. To call them a cult is an understatement, and yet there are aspects of their lifestyle that we criticize that, within the culture they have created for themselves, may not be as we would expect. In our western world we pick our own mates - but that is not true in much of the world, where marriages are still pre-arranged. In our western world, it's expected that women will be 20+ before deciding to marry, but this is not true in many, many cultures. And in those cultures, the females don't view it as a burden that has been forced upon them - it is just a part of life that they embrace and don't question, just as we don't question whether our families could pick better mates for their young daughters than the daughters would pick for themselves.

The thing that bothers me most about this situation is that it's obviously a cult. The women are so expressionless when hey talk. They are engaged in polygamy, which is against the law. Interestingly, though, these marriages aren't legit in the eyes of the law because there are no marriage certificates for any of them, and it doesn't appear that the men are living at the compound full time from what I can tell, which means that the common-law situation doesn't apply.

And if it did... to which wife?

Not to turn this into a gay debate... but the "Suzy Has Two Mommies" book was widely discussed several years back when it was introduced in classrooms.

We've also gotten to the point, as a society, where single parents aren't unusual, and Barney sang songs about the different types of families we have come to accept.

There was a time at which none of these "family" units would have been accepted by the mainstream, but because a handful of activists made it their goal to normalize those arrangements in the eyes of the public, they are not as widely viewed as sub-par to the traditional family in the way they were 20 years ago.

The reason the FLDS people lived in those compounds was because their way of life - the sexual unions they had that resulted in numerous children - is not accepted legally or socially.

If someone from the FLDS made it their goal in life to acclimate the rest of us to the understanding that they're just another type of a family, and pushed to get books in the New York Public School System titled, "Johnny Has Three Mommies and a Daddy," in twenty years would we be accepting of their way of life?

Please don't get me wrong - I think what they were doing was wrong. But on the straight-up facts, I think they could find instances of things we accept in society that are right there alongside what the FLDSers do, and yet we do nothing to the others who do those things. Technically, what you have here is a guy having sex with more than one woman and fathering kids with them. That happens in the 'real world' all the time -it's just not normally the uber-religous doing it.

The answer to your question is yes.
Longtime residents of southern Nevada and NW Arizona will point to the Short Creek Raid in 1953 (see Short Creek raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )as a precursor to the spotlight once again being shown on the FDLS.

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I agree with wowitsdark. I am so on the fence on this issue.


I think that each child should and is supposed to be, by law, treated individually. That is why they have to have separate attorneys.

I am upset with this pack mentality and treating all of these children as one.

Somewhere inside of me, this just screams of violations of civil rights.

I do believe, however, if that young girls were being used for sex and procreating, that THESE are the cases that need to be addressed and those that have violated should be arrested and placed in jail.

Maybe they are eventually going to view each case one by one, but they need to do the investigating first. The problem I have is they are yanking these kids out of their home, then asking questions.

I also find wisdom in wowitsdark's comments. Just because it's different, doesn't automatically make all aspects of their traditions wrong. and does teeter on the edge of civil rights violations, IMHO.

cj/

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I just found this article interesting... The woman who called in the allegation I think will be charged with making a false report. From reading it, I think she has nothing to do with the FLDS church, either, just wanting to make problems... So now what should the state do? They have all these kids in state custody and they know the allegation that got them taken away is false. I think they are going to have to give them back ASAP!

FOXNews.com - Phone Number Could Tie Colorado Woman to Calls Sparking Raid of Polygamist Sect - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

There's much more evidence than the woman making the phone call. There's been someone living with them undercover for four years, plus you've got Warren Jeffs, who is the leader of this group (who's now in prison for these exact allegations). Once the DNA results are in, I think people are going to discover that these people have been having sex with their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles -- probably they're all related to each other! There's probably a lot of evidence that hasn't been released to the public.

Dr. Phil is doing a show on this tonight, FWIW. I hadn't thought of how expensive this situation is going to be with the attorney and court fees, temporary care, etc.....Wow!

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

The use of the word "marriage" to describe a middle aged man helping himself to the body of a child makes me sick.

The fact that they can't wait until the child is at least of an age that can be considered adulthood makes me think group pedophila

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FWIW--older men marrying young, young girls was actually pretty common in the "Old West" and Pre-Civil war eras. So were arranged marriages.

I am not commenting on the rightness/wrongness of the practice--I'm just saying that this cult is not the only ones to do it.

Also, FYI the original founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Jr., did not practice polygamy (he had more than one marriage/wife, but never all at the same time!). Polygamy was something that Brigham Young and his cronies practiced. Regardless of that--there are all kinds of things in different religions that I don't understand and/or agree with (for example the "snake-handling" churches). But, those things are what these people have been brought up to believe--and in some cases brainwashed into a way of life.

Personally? I could never be one of those women from the FLDS compound--but, I wasn't raised that way, so honestly I can't sit in judgement of them. I think it's a horrible mess and the ones that will suffer are the children,

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I've been watching this. It's been on his day show the last few days. Dr. Phil is the one who brought Warren Jeffs to the public eye long before he was arrested. He had people on his show that had gotten out of the compound (not the one in Texas) and it was really an eye-opening show. Dr. Phil's son and staff even went to the compound. They were followed around by vehicles from the compound the entire time. These are not the shy, backward people that they want you to think they are. If this raid by the government had not taken place like it did and had they just taken a few children here and there, the rest of the children would have 'disappeared'. From what I've been reading, the fathers are disappearing now in order to escape the DNA tests.

I know this goes off topic some..but Dr. Phil has been brought up in a couple of posts.

I do not know why people listen to this man at all. He isn't even qualified to give any advice on anything.

Dr. Phil (McGraw)
"The Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists imposed disciplinary sanctions on McGraw on January 27, 1989 for an inappropriate "dual relationship" reported in 1988 by a therapy client/employee from 1984. McGraw was ordered by the Board to take an ethics class, pass a jurisprudence exam, complete a physical evaluation, undergo a psychological evaluation and have his practice supervised for one year in order to continue his private practice in Texas. McGraw admits to giving the client a "job" at his office (which is not allowed), but denied carrying on a sexual relationship with the 19-year-old, who says their relationship was "sexually inappropriate."

As of 2008, McGraw has not completed the conditions imposed by the Board of Examiners of Psychologists and he is not licensed to practice psychology in Texas, California, or anywhere else."

I've always thought he was a little too pompous and pious....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"