I was watching the Today show this morning and the Duggars are expecting again. They must have a show in the works with one of the cable channels for a day to day series.

Wow, that woman is a saint. I could never raise 18 children.

Happy Mother's Day to all.

CherBear

Oh my goodness! I just don't know how her body can keep up with that many pregnancies.

Wow! Have some of the oldest ones moved out on their own now? Imagine how lonely that will be for them... or maybe they'll LOVE it!

Amazing.

That's just ridiculous and really irritates me!

I'm sorry, honestly they cannot even give the kids they have the attention they need. They pawn the child off to an older sibling to take care of as soon as possible. If they don't want to use Birth Control Because of their religion I certainly understand, but here's a thought, how about trying the rhythm method & abstaining while mom is ovulating.

__________________
Mary

Wow...

sometimes I can not keep up with my two....good thing we are not all made from the same mold. I could not do it

__________________
Think about helping out with cancer...
Join the Relay for Life

How old is she?
She will have to stop sometime!

__________________
Square dancing is friendship set to music!

We have a file clerk here at the office who has 8 kids and this is exactly what happens. Again, because of religion but good grief!

But, she's not "raising" them. The older siblings are...

She's 41 y/o---I would think that the older she gets the more of a chance for a serious complication or for the baby to have some birth defect.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Ok..who is rasing most people kids that put them in daycare, public school for hours, daycare/sports in the evening. Someone else is rasing those children.
Nothing is ever said about the truth that most parents nowdays spend less time with their children!

Oh, I don't know about that.

"attention they need" is rather subjective.

Kids need attention mainly for two reasons. 1) They need to know they're loved and secure, and 2) they need to learn academic and life skills and values.

My guess is that these kids feel more love and security than a lot of kids do. They aren't being shuffled between two homes and mad because one parent or the other isn't paying child support or living up to their obligations. They homeschool, so they have seven more hours in the house with their mom each day than my kids do. I assume that their religious commitment to their family will ensure that divorce doesn't occur, and I realize that not all divorces result in a lack of security on behalf of the kids, but that's not an uncommon consequence of families being divided in two... and it's not something the Duggar kids will have to contend with.

They are, from all that I've seen, exceptionally capable kids who do have a better concept of life skills than most kids. They can cook, they can clean, and they can organize. They've had music lessons and seem to be academically advanced. They appear to be polite and from what I observed on the special I saw on Discovery Channel, they can fight with each other just as well as my own three, so it's not as though they are entirely brainwashed robots like the women from the cult in Texas.

Are they *typical*? No way. Not at all.

But they take their responsibility very seriously, and I'll wager that none of their kids will grow up to be a drain on society financially or otherwise. They likely won't end up in prison or stopped for drunk driving.

They bug me an awful lot less than welfare queens who have different babies with six different dads and expect taxpayers to fund all their needs. If you think kids from *those* homes are getting the 'attention they need'.... think again. If I'm going to get my dander up, it won't be over the Duggars.

It doesn't appeal to me one iota to live a Duggar kind of a life, but they're doing a lot less damage to their kids by their methods than many parents today do by letting them play video games 24/7, assuming they will engage in teen sex and that it's not in their power to stop it, and eating fast food five nights a week.

ETA: I speak from personal experience here. I'm one of two, but am married to a man who comes from a family that's near Duggar proportions (my spouse is #11, something he still feels compelled to write on the inside of the waistband of his underwear with a Sharpie 25 years after leaving home - lol) He had an older brother who was 'in charge' of him and they are close to this day. I assume that brother will still be alive when their parents are not, so it's a plus for my DH to have someone with a relationship like that in his life that will outlast even the parental connection he has. They share funny inside jokes and crack the rest of the family up. For each older child, a relationship like that exists with a younger one. It's actually rather neat. Are there some that butted heads and that still butt heads? Yes, but so do adults who have only one sibling. The kids from my DH's family truly grew up to be selfless, caring, compassionate people. Do some of them have quirks? Yes. But then again... don't we all?

My response was to the statement of "she's a saint" because she's raising that many kids. How can she be a saint if she's not actually raising the kids?? I don't think she's a saint--and I don't care who's raising the kids (anyone's kids for that matter). The ability to get pregnant and birth babies does not a saint make...KWIM? That's what I was commenting on---and I should have made it more clear in my post

I think Mr. and Mrs. Duggar are nuttier than squirrel poo--but if it works for them and they are happy and self-supportive, I don't give a rip if they have 10 more

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I guess I should have said, they are not getting parental attention. Plus the parent are choosing to have child after child knowing their other children will take care of them. What kind of parenting is that? What is the point in having children just to have children?

I don't think it's fair to compare their parenting to divorced parents or parents who have to put their children in Day Care. Apples to Oranges. The Duggars never intend to raise their children! At least children who are in day care or dual homes, have their parents in the morning, at night and on weekends to PLAY with them, READ to them, TALK to them, LISTEN to them, and CARE FOR THEM. How much one-on-one time do you think the Duggar children have with their parents?

Just because they have the means to support a huge family does not mean they need to continue propagating the species just because they can. As far as the home schooling, the older siblings are doing a the bulk of that too.

I agree that the children and wonderful, well behaved & responsible. I just think the parents are not!

JMHO

__________________
Mary

On GMA Emerill Lagassee gave breakfast in bed to a mom that had 17 kids, and she gave birth to all of them. I had to leave midway thru the segment, so didn't catch it all, but, I did see some of her children on there speaking about what a rock there Mom is.

That many children is NOT for me. As long as THEY are able to support them, and not the tax payers, and they are not abused or neglected, I guess it really is their free choice as an American. I don't see how they have time for making the babies, tho!! LOL.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I don't know what happens in your house, but I don't know that my kids get the type of attention you are describing.

Sunday night we played a game. Apples to Apples. It was my DH and two of our kids. Had our other been home he could've joined in, too. Is that personal attention? Would it have ceased to be if there were six of us playing instead of four? What is the magic number for it not to count as quality time anymore?

Just having three, I don't know how often I actually *LISTEN* to them in the way you seem to be describing. I pick the oldest up from school ten minutes before the next one gets out, so we have ten minutes alone in the van. Sometimes he does homework. Sometimes I ask him about his day and he tells me stuff. It's not as thought I intentionally set out a time to "LISTEN" to him - it's just part of the course of the day. By the same token, the child that's taken to school last has me alone to himself for ten minutes and we chat. It's never anything dramatic and I don't think it needs to be. It's just life... and we just live it... and all three of mine know if they ever needed to talk to just me or DH that we'd absolutely be available for them. I can't imagine that life with the Duggars is any different. I saw that she is apt to take just one or two with her to town when they need something. I imagine they have the same sorts of moments I do with my kids.

My MIL read to her kids every day - all of them. They all fondly remember nap time because they'd all climb up on their parents king-sized bed with her and she'd read them a story. Yes, my husband had an older brother who was his point-person for helping him find his shoes and socks when they needed to head out the door, but his mother had a profound influence on him, even if it wasn't just the *two* of them in the room together for two hours a day.

If you'd asked any of my BILs/SILs if their parents cared for them, they'd have said absolutely, without question.

The reason I don't think the divorce analogy was apples to oranges is this: You indicated that they aren't raising their kids. I disagree. When you're a mom, you know the house won't run itself. She has more hands on deck than most of us, but someone had to teach *those* kids to have that high level of responsibility, and she did that at a much greater level than most mothers do today. You said you agree the kids are polite, respectful, etc. Do you think they got that way on their own?

Do you think she hides out in the bedroom watching As the World Turns and eating ice cream while the older kids conduct violin lessons for the younger ones?

I think she's much more involved in what happens in that house than you give her credit for.

I do apologize for bringing up such a delicate topic. I just thought it was interesting that she is yet again expecting. I do think that they are not the norm as far as their children go but she must have a ton of patience to school and mother that many kids. The older kids do help out and even parents with multiples (especially 4+) need help as well. I maybe should have not called her a saint but she is a much braver mom than me.

biobrain, don't be sorry, it's a good topic and we're just dicussing the issue. And I think it's been pretty civil...No Worries.

__________________
Mary

wowitsdark - Just to clarify....I am speaking primarily about the young children/babies of the family.

I think any child under kindergarten age should have as much one-on-one time with their parent as possible. The one-on-one time needed lessens as the child gets older.

The older child does not need mom and dad as much. You no longer have to read to them everyday, and sit on the floor and play with them, and bathe them, go the the park with them and teach them their ABCs..

Your 10 minutes with your children, when you are alone with each of them, is probably all they need as far as one-on-one time. I'm talking about the young children.

I saw the original documentary series on the discovery channel before the last baby was born and then I saw the show with the last baby. And they had 2 or 3 in diapers not counting the newborn, and the older girls were taking care of the babies/tots. One of the younger children maybe 3 or 4 fell and his big sister (she looked about 10 or so) went to pick him up and mom just stood by.

Let me ask you a question...how much time do you think the Duggar mom and dad spend with the really young children? I saw mom spend more time with the older girls than with the young ones, and that holds true with the dad too. He spent a lot of time with the older boys working outside. I never saw the dad even hold one of the babies.

Once the babies are weaned off the breast, it's the kids job to take of the children and I think that's wrong.

If she did not have so many kids, her children could BE children and not used as mom & dad's personal day-care providers. I feel sorry for the children. I truly do. Can you imagine being 12 years old and responsible for taking care of a 3 year old, all day, every day? Why should a child be responsible for their sibling's care. THAT IS MOM AND DAD'S JOB. Come on...

PS - It sound like you MIL did a fantastic job with all her kids.

__________________
Mary

What I'd say is that I don't remotely run my household like the Duggars, but I'd be very slow to say that their way is wrong and mine is right. I just think it's different.

The time in which we're alive is much different than the way things had always been up until about 150 years ago. From the days of Moses up until the days of Little House on the Prairie, the things the Duggars do that people today say are *bad* for children were standard operating procedure. In our way of thinking today, things like one-on-one time with mom/dad are written up in women's magazines as necessities... and for many, many centuries, they were actually luxuries, and somehow, children survived and grew to be very strong adults of character.

Not all of them, of course, but what I'm saying is that I don't believe it *hurt* them that childcare was more cooperative among the family rather than solely on the shoulders of the parents.

I can say that as an adult, I am much less responsible than my husband's siblings. I had a mom all to myself for a few years (I'm the oldest of two and lived a carefree, virtually responsibility-free childhood). My SIL's and BIL's got up at 5:00 AM to move irrigation before the school bus came. The olders helped the youngers. Their mom was the secretary for the business their dad ran, and so she didn't get home until 5:00 and the girls were to have supper on the table when the parents got home, and they had the little ones peeling potatoes and doing things they were capable of doing to help out.

They weren't *playing*... and they weren't with their *mom*... but they were living life and learning. They had skill sets by the age of eight that many girls today don't even have when they get married.

Even today, when you're in the kitchen with them when they're all together, they all laugh and talk about, "The time when you.....!" and they all break out into song and you can tell that those times they spent together were very special to them.

Their mom wasn't around for them, and yet because she had set a tone and laid out responsibilities and trained them well, ultimately all of the children benefited from being part of that home.

While I understand what you're saying about it seeming to be a heavy burden to place on a child, what I've come to realize as mine get older is that my biggest job - and it flies by quickly - is to equip them with the skills they'll need to be productive, happy, well-adjusted adults. That may mean playing with them, and it may mean giving them responsibilities that aren't necessarily fun, but that will benefit them in the long run.

What I've seen as the end result of the type of parenting the Duggars do is actually very positive. They've turned out to be confident, capable adults. Interestingly, none of them have more than four children themselves, and most of them just have two, so while they didn't emulate their parents choice, each of them is very grateful for all the others and for the childhoods they had together. In the 18 years under their parents roof they were equipped with the skills and the attitudes that are taking them effectively through the next 60 years... and so I guess I have a really hard time being critical, even though having a posse like that is a choice I'd ever personally make.... kwim?

I love the Duggars show and have watched it often. I am so impressed with how all the kids behave, such respect and manners!! These people are debt free, hard working, and I think raising awesome, responsible human beings. Yes, the older siblings have way more responsibility than the normal teenager, but from the show, I see none of them rebelling, surly, emo, etc. Their website states they are Christians who believe children are a gift from the Lord, and they don't want to put limits on their blessings. That's why they use no birth control. I don't know how a kid in that family wouldn't feel loved, they appear to be happy. jmho

I do KWYM - "Back in the day" kids had more back-bone because they were expected to do more, they had to.

I think I am biased because as a "child" I was left to take care of my siblings (4 of them) everyday after school from 3rd grade until I was in 10th grade and I truly resented it, and that was only a few hours a day. I used to go to the neighbor's to get my brother and sister when I got home from school and watch them as well as my other brother and sister who came home from school with me.

I know I had to develop responsibility early and I'm sure it helped me grow into what I think is a decent woman. But I wish I had those years back, so I could have just been a kid like all my friends.

I stand by my opinion that if you are going to have children, only have as many as you, personally, can care for.

__________________
Mary

wowitsdark - I must say after re-reading your post #18, you made some very good points and maybe I have been a bit too harsh in my criticism of the Duggars. It doesn't change my opinion, but I do see your point.

__________________
Mary

I love the Duggers! Judge not, lest you be judged!
My best friends have nine children (8 girls!). They are all happy, well adjusted, etc... Their mom home schools them too. They all get attention from their mom and dad. Yes, the older ones help watch the little ones but that seems to make them all closer to each other. They are all so bonded to each other that they really don't mind helping out. Personally, they have changed my life by showing such a wonderful example of family love and trusting in God. As I've said before on here they are truly the happiest people I know! Also, with homeschooling they have tons of time together. When I first met this family they only had five kids. At first I kind of thought why would want more? Now I'm like "oh boy, you're pregnant again!!!" They are my heros!!!

Ya know, I think I would've resented that, too! lol

What I picture with the Duggars is a little different in that it's not so much babysitting that prevents them from going anywhere like your situation, but more like 'oversight'. I'm guessing that if one of the Duggar girls gets invited to spend the night with a friend the answer isn't, "Sure, but you can't go over there until I get home at 6:30," but rather, "Sure, as soon as your chores are done." And in those cases, I can't imagine that Mrs. D. doesn't just make sure everything in the house rolls along like it needs to without that child.

And for you to singularly be in charge of *four*, rather than just everybody cooperatively working through the day with a little sister to watch out for here and there.... yeah, that'd stink.

I figure it's working for them, and there are probably a lot worse things that could happen to a kid. I think no matter what kind of a home one comes from, there are always going to be things we look back on and say, "I wish such-and-such had been different." For one or two of the Duggars it may very well be, "I wish I hadn't had to make sure Molly got her bath every night," but if it hadn't been that, it would've been, "I wish my mom had let me get a loft bed" or "I wish my dad hadn't made me share the family station wagon with my two older brothers."

Seriously - I'd have resented what you had to do, too!

My aunt went to school with Michelle and visit them once in awhile. The kids are as polite and kind off camera as they are on. they all help, they dont "forget" often like my own try to do with their chores. Shes not a Saint but I sure wished I had her patience. People go on that's too many, their supporting their own, she knows who her babys daddy is unlike some people in the world that sleep with someone new every night and dont have a clue. The judgement on them bothers me and it's the same every time their name is brought up in a post, pretty much every year.

__________________
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

I think if I was the Duggar mom I would tell that Duggar dad to keep it in his pants already. My wifely duties would have ended about eleven kids ago.

I don't know how people can blast parents who rely on the family to chip in to help caring for kids. And I can't help but think the Duggars are "raising" their children in a more hands on way than many people (not all) who use day care.

As Wowitsdark pointed out, the family is homeschooling. They choose to be with their kids 24/7 - that's more than most of us can say - how can they be accused of not raising their family???

I wouldn't choose to have such a huge family, but I wouldn't judge them, either. So many of us parents on these very boards probably have more serious problems raising a fraction of that number of children. I just don't think it's our place to judge.

My mother is the 2nd oldest of nine. She LOVED her childhood - can't say enough about what was so right about that way of living. It's what society gets used to. If people think there should be only one right way to raise a family, and they don't look at the end results to make that judgement, it's sort of short-sighted and pretty biased.

I guess all we can do is look at their 17+ kids and compare them with a random sampling of 17+ other American kids and see who's most well-adjusted. The proof is in the pudding...

Wow..just saw this story about a different family with 17 children. Married over 50 years.

ABC News: Mother of 17 Kids Wins 'Breakfast in Bed'

18 children...wow - just blows my mind! Bet they just pop or drop out at this point.
If they're not on public assistance, then their business is none of mine, really.

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I wonder what he does for a living. I would have problems feeding that many kids even with coupons! a nurse that used to work with me had 14 and her husband was a lawyer. they didnt have a huge home, it was like 6 bedrooms and the kids all shared rooms. I dont think I could handle that many kids in my house. we would have to build on, up , around and under!

__________________
·´`·.(*·.¸(`·.¸ ¸.·´)¸.·*).·´`·
«·´¨*·.¸¸. Jo ¸¸.·*¨`·»
«·´`·.(¸.·´(¸.·* *·.¸)`·.¸).·´`·»


Please leave feedback for me here.
http://www.mycoupons.com/boards/g-l/...-littlejo.html



gretchengirl@gmail.com

http://lifewithlittlejo.blogspot.com/

what I read was ....



As a family project the Duggars built a 7000 sqft. home debt free! Both Jim Bob and Michelle are licensed real estate agents.They often host and facilitate the Jim Sammon’s Financial Freedom Seminar. Jim Bob served in the Arkansas House of Representatives from 1999 to 2003 and was a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2002.



Hope they have a huge savings with real estate the way it is :-(

__________________
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

Heh, I'm expecting my first, and already planning to get fixed.

I suppose it can work for some people, but I also know it's not necessarily appreciated by the older kids (DH is a testament to that), and it's not necessarily the most responsible thing to do in terms of adding more people to this planet. When it was more common to have a lot of children, infant and child morality rates were a lot higher too.

I saw the program where she gave birth to number 17 and she commented that people say that to her all the time but nope, she still labors for hours, pushes hard and it's far from pain-free :-)

Actually my friend with the 9 kids brought up a good point the other day. Having a large family is more "green" than smaller families/divorced families. Divorced families-two homes instead of one, at least two cars, kids have two beds, maybe two bikes, etc... That uses up more resources than one family. In a large family you can reuse more clothes, toys, less waste of food etc.. It's similar with families with the standard 1.5 kids. Consider this-6 families with 2 kids take up 6 houses on a block = 6 + cars, 6 utilties being used, tons more light bulbs, etc... So having more kids can actually be more "green" than smaller families.
Infant/child mortality rates were probably higher because of lack of medical care, knowledge, etc... Think of all the advances made in the last 30 years or so. Etopic pregnancies, preclampsia, C-sections, antiobiotics, control of gestational diabetes, etc... plus all the advances made in treating premies and even invitro surgeries sometimes. Naturally there would have been more maternal and infant deaths in earlier times.

I just wanted to comment on the other children taking care of the younger siblings. If you had a lot of children you have no choice to give some responsibility to the other kids. 17 Kids is a lot for 2 parents to handle on their own..they have to help one another out in this type of situation. I don't think she is having kids soley to pass them off on the others, but i do feel that is to many kids to have. I believe that all kids need attention one on one sometimes and with 18 children it is impossible to give them all the attention they need. I don't envy her at all. I feel awful for the children that they have to feel that their only friends are their sisters and brothers. From the past shows they had my understanding of it was that each child had another child they was paired up with to be responsible for and when they went anywhere they was responsible for that child. I thought it was good organizational way of doing things with a family of that size.

__________________
SAHM of Bailey 12, Tyler 10 , Emily Ann 6, and Ryan Matthew 4 yrs old.

Totally true about kids with two homes, and being able to pass things on. I just wonder what would happen if more people had a dozen children, and those kids had their own dozen kids, rabbit style. Everyone still needs a place to live with their own family, and a lot of empty space has already been swallowed up.

Now, if you have a child, or get pregnant, chances are you and the child will survive, and that wasn't necessarily the case years ago, so it was reasonably likely you'd have more births than living children, or even not survive one yourself. It kept big families from necessarily producing huge amounts of descendants. I suppose we've gotten the option to choose to limit our family sizes effectively at about the same time a lot of other health problems have been mostly fixed, and I wonder how it balances things out.

I just wanted to say thanks to wowitsdark & dnj51 for their posts. I really enjoyed the way the two of you stated your opinons without flaming each other. You were both mature and gave honest, straight-forward reasons why you felt the way you do. It really made me think of both sides of the story. Keep up the great posts!

I totally agree with this statement.

And I don't think the Duggar parents are, in fact, doing that.

Just a little ps. I was talking to my friend with the nine kids last night at homeschoolers Prom (which was totally AWESOME!) and I told her the thought expressed on here that older kids are saddled with the younger ones. (I'm sure this does happen in some families but certainly not all of them.) She looked shocked. Her three oldest girls just got back from a 4 week trip to Italy, Germany, etc.. and she said the first thing they wanted to do was pick up the youngest (almost 2) and hold and cuddle her! They missed their siblings alot. (Their trip only cost the plane ticket with they got from a pilot friend of theirs. They stayed with friends and in convents while visiting so it hardly cost them anything.)