I was just reading that the bailout for the automakers failed. I do realize that it is going to hit alot of people and I apologize to any of you that may be effected however I do have to say I am glad that it failed.
Greed got the automakers where they are.

And I did not see where they (ceo's) offered to take big pay hits or to not get their $1mil pay raises either. I could be wrong because I only see what's on TV, but I think if they want to get help, they should start with themselves. They did say something about "cutting back" on their employees, however.


Again, I said I could be wrong because I only see what's on our local TV news

All 3 of the CEOs have agreed to a $1/year salary. Now it's the unions turn and they are refusing cuts. That's why it failed in the Senate.

Lisa

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"It's not having what you want,
It's wanting what you've got"

I'm glad the bailout failed. It's time for the auto manufacturer's to re-organize.
It's time for the union to get off it's high horse also. Some of the blame for what's happening to the manufacturer is also the union's fault.
Judy

I agree the automakers should make concessions....Chrysler has been in trouble for years and years, but what many people don't see is the impact that the auto business has on local communities. The sales tax that everyone pays on vehicles is a vital part of cities budgets.....out in Los Angeles that is millions of dollars that the city is losing, which will impact many city services. I hate the bailouts but it will provide some accountability for these companies, which has been needed for years.

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"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

I heard a blip saying Bush was going to give them some of the other bailout money since it failed in the senate. I think they should get nothing..let them fail. Sorry to those affected but no one is going to bail my company out if I mis-manage my finances and don't have what the public wants. The government should not "bailout" private industry. We succeed...we fail....let those who should fail....fail.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

You have a good point on the impact of the automakers going under but I still don't think that the byproduct of a failure should influence the government to bailout a private industry. Unless they are going to bailout every private business that needs it. There are lots of private businesses that fail and have reprocussions throughout their communities. They aren't all bailed out.

If a big computer company (HP, Dell, Toshiba, Sony...or all of them) needed money, should the government bail them out? The impact on local and nationally would be huge. I say No, they shouldn't. I mean, where does it end?

Just my two cents though. I'm sure many will disagree....especially those with families directly affected.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

I think they shouldn't be given the bailout money. The world won't end if they go under. They'll just reorganize and keep on going, hopefully without the union. Greed and the union is what got them in this mess in the first place.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

the problem I have is #1 my job will be affected I will be lucky not to lose my job until April, I could lose it any day now. I am one of the 3 million hard working taxpaying people that will lose their jobs if the automakers fail. think that is 3 million more families that will need ehlp fromt he ffederal government and from our fellow citizens.
#2 we supplied all this bailout money for the banking/Wall Street jerks are they going to take any pay cuts? NO Did AIG cancel their getaways - no! Are they paying any of the money back - NO!!! The automakers, in the past, have received loans and have paid them back. The big 3 are making cuts, they are trying to stay afloat. The unions have made some small cuts but no they won't do anything else to help out.

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Laura
Please visit my blog
http://mylifeinlaurasworld.blogspot.com/

I too am sorry for everyone who is losing their jobs during this economic downturn.

However things need to change and often that means worse before better. we cannot be bailing rich people out. They could've done what Lee Iaccoca did. He took $1 a year salary if I remember correctly to put it back on it's feet.
There are tons of small businesses and large ones too going out of business because of the economy. We either bailout everybody or nobody. That's it.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Yea, see? I knew I hadn't seen everything. Thanks for letting me know. I was thinking they CEO's were all being money hungry and not wanting to do anything.

Also, I agree that we need to stop somewhere. Everyone's having a hard time right now. As said, will they also bail out all the small, family owned businesses that are struggling..and that don't have million-dollar salaries?

My husband's job is at risk. He is on a three week lay off and who knows if he'll have a job when he gets back. He does not work for any of the big three, is not union, and certainly does not make union wages but his job is connected to the auto industry. Many, many will suffer if the industry does down. The trickle down effect will be enormous.

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"Today is your day! Your mountain is waiting. So... get on your way."
Theodor Seuss Geisel (Dr. Seuss)

"The trickle down effect will be enormous"
I am sorry then people should have thought of that before they took and EXPECTED jobs making 60.00/hr. I have a college degree that I worked hard for and dont make that but the guy that put the bolt in my door makes that?? Thats nuts. I know PLENTY of people who would do that job for 20.00/hr...

IMHO, we shouldn't have bailed out AIG or anybody else. As the daughter of a retired UAW member, this whole discussion has become very heated in my family. Yes, my dad worked very hard and I'm proud of the work ethic he instilled in me. However, companies should either make it or break it on their own without government assistance. Big 3 management was poor and the UAW was greedy.

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I want to keep ALL of my paycheck and eliminate the pyramid scheme known as Social Security (there is no lockbox ). Do you want the same thing? www.fairtax.org

I'm sorry for your situation, but what you seem to be saying is that automakers are entitled to a bailout because someone else got one. Two wrongs will not make it right...and then three...and four....and so on.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Laura I am sincerely sorry to read your post and I also hope and pray you do not lose your job, and that 2009 will be a better year for you and anyone else who might lose their jobs.Peace and good luck... Catherine

I am sincerely sorry for families that will be affected by the loss of jobs.But the auto makers are like a lot of other companies they need to clean up their act!If they had some of the women here that know how to pinch a penny til it screams on their board of directors they wouldn't be in this shape. In the last 7 years my husband lost his job after 25 yrs(it went to Mexico)the job he has now is less than half of what he was making.I lost my job 2 yrs ago because of medical problems and dr. mistakes,and the list goes on.We had to cut back,do without,worry and pray alot and we've made it.If the goverment is going to bail out someone make it the everyday joe,the working class american that is losing their home,their retirements,their dreams.Most people don't make the kind of money the CEO's of the big 3 do but we mange to get by.These companies (along with the ones the gov already bailed out)don't deserve a bail out.American taxpayers are tired of paying for their mistakes and exspensive lifestyles.They need to put on their BIG GIRL PANTIES,quit whining and crying waiting for a bail out and fix their own problems!

I received this in an Email today, thought it was interesting....

Subject: Editorial

Below is an editorial written this morning concerning the current situation in
Washington with the Big Three Domestic Automakers. I couldn't have said it
better myself. This Ford dealer is from Pittsburg but defends all of the Big Three.
Please take the time to read. Forward to whomever it might make a difference.

Thanks,
Marianne

Editor:
As I watched the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's
economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and
'90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyot a by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that
Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats
the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hy brid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've
noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again
the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift
to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-se rving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus
emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by th e Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto
producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap la bor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion
foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppos itions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched
and is not necessary. Fo rd currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the
effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A
Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big
Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question.20Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

I live in a GM town in MIchigan and I don't know anyone making $60 and hour. My father and father-inlaw were both Journeymen and did not make near that much. 7 years ago I was a contract Quality Engineer and made about $16 with no benefits.

jocemom,
thanks for posting. It's an interesting read. It doesn't change my mind but I respect the person who wrote it. It's well thought out

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

jocemom,
thanks for posting. It's an interesting read. It doesn't change my mind but I respect the person who wrote it. It's well thought out

__________________
Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

I don't know where you get your information but most union auto workers make $14.00 to $26.00 per hour. They are not getting rich off those wages.

I agree.

Link

If that still seems ridiculously high, people might want to look at this, which compares average hourly wages:

Link

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Reading is Fundamental.

60 is with benefits included and the info came from the union rep that was in washington with teh CEO's..

I'd like to see a cite to that, since I haven't seen anything that supports that.

Some of what companies claim as benefits is ridiculous. I remember when my company tried to convince me that parking in their lot and having coffee in the lounge was a hugely valuable benefit.

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Reading is Fundamental.

In the last interview, the head of the UAW was talking and said he could not expect his employees to take a pay cut when they were making "60.00/hr with benefits"

28.00/hr with benefits of 10.00/hr is still high considering a majority of the work is computerized now....

Cite? Where is this info coming from?

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Reading is Fundamental.

He said it on TV.... When the big three had their heads down because they were denied the money. The rep from the UAW was standing there and made that comment.

And the 28.00 plus 10.00 for benefits is from your own post above....

I meant a news report that I could read. Sounds like none exists.

For the money, I meant where you're getting the info that everything is computerized.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Look at the pics... (Again in your own post) Half of what these gentleman and women do is computerized. DH has been a mechanic for Dodge for the past 20 years and will be the first to tell you that cars have been bad since computers took over the building.
I saw the clip on the news.. I am sure if you look hard enough you shall see it.

Sorry, I like people to back up what they say, especially when what they say doesn't comport with what the rest of the world is reporting.

As for computers, my job involves using computers all day long, too. Do you think computers run themselves?

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Reading is Fundamental.

Im sorry are you having a bad day or something or have you just chosen me to attack this week??
As far as backing what I said, I SAW IT ON THE NEWS... as a matter of fact, IT CAME OUT OF THE REP OF THE UAW's MOUTH. ANd backing up the statement about computers making them, look at the pic from your own post... 5 people standing around in that pic and only two are actually touching the cars.
No computers dont run themselves however it does not take the same amount of people to build a car with a computer then by hand. Do you by any chance work in the auto business? Have you seen the difference between computers making cars and human hands making them?

"GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers." I was wrong GM is 70.00/hr

and here is the link to that article: $14B auto bailout dies in Senate - Business - Nation - The State

Well, that's not what these folks are bringing home, its the fully-burdened hourly rate for employees. In my area, we use $100-125 per head. Benefits are not cheap.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Asking you to back up what you say is attacking you?

Hmmph. I'll remember that.

Your cite from GM is clear that it's not current workers getting that salary at all. It's the cost to GM of all current AND retired workers. You can't credit current employees with being the beneficiary of benefits paid to retired workers. The cost to GM is NOT the same as the wages and benefits being paid to current workers. That's apples and oranges.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I have explained to you in each and every post where I saw the information that I stated. And you have continued to ask where I got the info. Either you cant read or you are chosing to skip over that part where I have said over and over again that I SAW IT ON THE NEWS.....
And GM states that the hourly wage AVERAGE is " GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour" so add in the benefits and I am sure that they are OVER AND ABOVE the 60 or 70.00 an hour range...

Not living in a part of the country where unions have any sort of a foothold (other than the NEA), I can only guess at this....

Would I be right to assume that it is the union that is responsible for the fact that UAW retirees live so comfortably? I mentioned my brother-in-law in another post. His job is in a field that exists in the capacity that it does largely due to the presence of the auto industry in Detroit. He is not himself in the auto industry, but his industry is unionized. Their family does not save much of anything towards retirement, which I simply cannot fathom, given that other than what little social security we may receive, saving for our retirement is entirely on our own backs.

Not only does about 1/6th of DH's pay go to pay our insurance premiums, but we put another 15% into retirement each month (and of course right now, that fund isn't looking so good given that it is subject to market issues, and.... yeah. I'm sure everyone knows what that means right now! lol).

Not only do we make much less than UAW workers, but we fork out about 30% of DH's salary, before taxes, to benefits that UAW workers receive on top of their salaries.

When we retire, we aren't guaranteed anything. We have to manage our own money and hope market fluctuations don't leave us with nickels instead of dollars when we are in our golden years. A UAW worker, in his golden years, is still guaranteed a check... correct? And is there a medical benefit that goes to retired UAW workers as well?

I'm not complaining about our own state of affairs, mind you. Just saying that if the UAW world is as I perceive it to be, their workers have had a fairly cushy ride compared to the rest of us, but the utopia they supposedly created for their workers - safe, secure, and guaranteed to be worry-free... well... that bubble may bankrupt them all in the end.

Then what happens to the UAW retirees who have come to rely on those guaranteed retirement funds every month? Do they just go poof? Or is there some fund that will truly guarantee that they will receive them?

I do feel badly for a retiree who believed his financial future was 'in the bag' so to speak, and didn't bother to save because of a promise that there was no need to - they were covered by their employer even when they were no longer employed. But if in fact it is as I perceive it to be... I think it was an ill-fated set-up from the beginning.

I'm the one that can't read?

You still haven't provided a news report that a UAW rep said that autoworkers are making 60.00/hour. On the contrary, two people at least so far have explained to you that the cost to GM is not the same as the hourly rate with benefits.

Unless that's my reading problem kicking in again.

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Reading is Fundamental.

GM says the average UAW laborer makes 29.78/hr... That is the hourly rate and that is what GM says Correct?? That is the hourly rate, add on the benefits and as CJ has said "Benefits are not cheap" So these people are making, WITH BENEFITS upwards of 60.00 an hour.

I have been searching for the news report however not all streaming video is permitted through the server here...

Is the union responsible for the level of compensation given to UAW retirees?

I provided a cite earlier for that amount. Based on my own cite, since you still don't provide one, yes, I agree that that it approximately the rate.

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Reading is Fundamental.

And nobody knows the answer to my question?

Sorry, I thought it was rhetorical. My best guess is that those benefits were negotiated between the union and the company as part of collective bargaining at some point in the past, so that both sides are responsible for whatever's being paid now.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I am not sure why you are saying that I did not post a site... I have posted a site that is saying 29 plus benefits... According to others here, "benefits are not cheap"

"Is the union responsible for the level of compensation given to UAW retirees? " Yes that is true. Whenever a new contract is needed, one thing that is negotiated is retirement, insurance, on top of wages. Ultimatley the union pulled the strings to get the pay for the employers.

BTW, saying that you "heard" something is not the same thing as providing a cite to a news source.

Where's the cite that supports your claim that benefits add $40.00 per hour to the hourly wage?

Ultimately the company agreed to pay the amount. Don't lay this all on the union. Takes two to tango.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Labor costs are not necessarily what the actual worker makes. Rather it is a combination of information used to determine cost related to making the product.
How much it costs the company every hour is used for lots of reasons dealing with projects/maintaince, etc.


I certainly do not agree with this bailout or any others. It is not going to be a pretty site when workers in other industries do not get bailout also. Deciding which comapnies to bailout is going to lead to more trouble down the road.

"Where's the cite that supports your claim that benefits add $40.00 per hour to the hourly wage?" Since I initially said 60.00/hr, it would break down to 29.87 an hour (PER article sites earlier) it would be 30.13 an hour for benefits.. Anyone that has dealt with negotiations or HR/Benefits can tell you that benefits can easily add up to 30.00/hr.

"BTW, saying that you "heard" something is not the same thing as providing a cite to a news source" I did not come through and say that I was quoting a source or anything like that.. I simply said that I HEARD SOMETHING SAID.... You are trying to split hairs here, not me. I listed my article and explained, although you are not reading or chosing to ignore the fact that I SAID I HEARD something... I am going to ask you for your news cite for everything that comes out of your mouth...
"Ultimately the company agreed to pay the amount. Don't lay this all on the union. Takes two to tango. " Your source please.....
"so that both sides are responsible for whatever's being paid now" Again your source please....

First part - was the point I made earlier (i.e. fully-burdened)
Second point - Amen, sister!

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I haven't, have you?


LOL. My source? Common sense. Sorry, won't make the mistake of citing that to you again.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I think that's the point a few of us were trying -- unsuccessfully, it appears -- to make.

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Reading is Fundamental.

"I haven't, have you?" Labor negotiations, yes I have when I negotiated my pay at my current job. And they listed what the benefits cost was.. So 30.13 for benefits an hour is NOT unrealistic.

Common sense? No actually, this quote to me sounds like you know this to be fact "so that both sides are responsible for whatever's being paid now"

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Be careful what you wish for.....

"GM recently has reportedly pointed out that the figure representing the hourly cost of labor to U.S. automakers -- a cost that GM reportedly puts at $69 -- includes not only current workers' hourly wages and benefits, such as health care and retirement, but also retirement and health-care benefits that U.S. automakers are providing for current retirees, as Media Matters has noted. Despite the automakers' acknowledgement, the media continue to repeat the $70 or more per hour myth." THis says NOTHING about projects, maint, etc...

"This total is made of two main components: cash compensation ($39.68) and benefit/government required programs ($33.58)."


http://mediamatters.org/items/200812060002 Check out the nice 5 color graph half way down the page....

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Be careful what you wish for.....