My dss Alex and his gf (who is due in April) and I am soo excited about, have been coming over quite frequently. He has still been in and out of jail, and still does not have a job.

Anyway, I thought he was doing better (she said he hasn't done drugs in a month or so ), maybe I was just hopeful.

We have had so many problems with him growing up with drugs, drinking, violence, truancy, delinquency, felon at the age of 9..etc etc..etc...that all I WISH for is for him to get his life straight.

So, we have been letting them do their laundry here, come over and I feed them like crazy..I even spent some money I wasn't supposed to on baby clothes for her and have been putting out pleas for help with maternity clothes. She is estranged from her family, and has no one to help her. I didn't realize exactly how much she DIDN'T have for the baby, until I asked her the other night. Then I found out what she doesn't have for her. My heart just melted..I am doing all I can to help.

Anyway, since they have been regularly coming over, I noticed that my Vicodin from my accident was dwindling.. I only have taken 4 our of 45 pills. Five would be gone here, there.. and it was always after they left. So this week, I combined the two bottles, wrote down the amount and watched..

He had made mention to me before that he was selling pills to these people and was making good money I got onto him .. but what can I do? He has always been that way, but he has always TOLD us what he is doing without saying he is going to do steal or do it to us to do what he is doing.. I kind of, I guess, knew better,..but was hopeful it wasn't true. I want him SO Bad to grow up!

Anyway, tonight.. they said they were coming over. Great! I was very excited. I had received some baby items, and wanted to go through them with her. But he said he could only come out tonight, and not tomorrow (we have a family function tomorrow) because they didn't have the gas money. so I told him to just spend the night with his girlfriend and they could do laundry here too. I had every intention of filling their tank up for them. Whatever I can do to help out..

Well, they get here, I was not home. Dh was. They disappear about 30 mins after getting here, said they had to go back to the next town to collect $25.
HE TOLD ME a few months ago he was selling vicodin for $5 a pill!!!

I went to my bottle, that I had hidden away from where it had been placed on the counter, and SURE enough.. 5 were missing.. for a total of 17 pills GONE total since we got back from Cali.

I am SO upset. Of course when they got home.. I asked him straight out, and he lied to me.

I told him, Alex, if it isn't you..it's Matthew (our 15 yo) and I NEED to know the truth from you.

Of course, I already knew Matthew hadn't done it, but was hoping this would make him fess up.. Not because I needed to know BUT I needed to know if I could TRUST him to fess up when he did something wrong.

Same as usual. he didn't. He lied to me.

I let it go. I continued on the night like nothing happened.. but inside..I am just so torn up. How could they do this to us AND themselves when they have SO many people helping them, going out of their way for them.. only to jeopordize that! It is so sad.

I am SO mad. But I know, right now, he will flip out if I out and out right kicked him out of the house.. and I would not see my new Grand baby I am so excited about... I am so torn! Normally I would not have a problem with holding his feet to the fire.. NOW I DO!!! UGH!

What would you have done??? What would you do?

And yes, all meds are locked up now..but what else will he take next (always has been SOMETHING with him)

I have family members just like this. Why should they change when everything is being handed to them on a silver platter. They say we're hungry, you feed them. We have no gas, you fill their tank. We have no baby items, you buy them for them.

My Aunt who is in her 60s is like this. Always has been, always will be. I used to take xanax for anxiety.. I was cutting down and had a good many xanax left over.. until one day she came over, looked in my purse without me knowing and stole over half of them. We confronted her.. she lied, but she also stayed away from us for one year. It was a nice year. I know that sounds heartless, but people like that just wear you down and make your life as miserable as theirs is.

Do you really want your grandbaby to grow up with parents like that? They are young enough hopefully that you could MAYBE stop this behavior.
Don't let them turn out like my Aunt. In their 60s, stealing and selling as well as buying drugs. Having no money for normal everyday things like food and baby stuff.

I stopped talking to my Aunt and her family (my Uncle, cousins 2nd cousins) and I don't regret it one bit. They were sucking me dry, financially and emotionally.

__________________
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'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

His mom's side of the family (which he has close ties with now) is just like that. The one Uncle of his is in his 30's and is STILL a stealer, drunk.. moocher.. druggie.

His mom.. his other uncles..all the same. When we got custody, I was so happy he was away from that atmosphere, but deep down inside him, I can see it is deep rooted. I have come to the conclusion you just can't change a person.....I am not responsible for what he is.. he is. He is 20 years old now. We have sent him to the best Child Psyhcologists, sacrificec our family in so many ways to try to make sure that his ever exhausting needs were met.. everything you can imagine to try to help him overcome the raw deal he was handed in life..but sometimes, (as was told to us by his Child Psychologist), no matter how good you are sometimes you just can't touch what is deeply wounded in a person, and what they are "predispositioned" to be like.

His mom drank her entire pregnancy with him. He is an AFS baby.. who on top of it was severely abused, neglected and then abandoned by his bio mom after we got custody (her mom did the same thing to her).

He is choosing to carry on the torch.

I personally am tired of getting burned by it, and it isn't the way WE are as people. It goes against every ideal, belief and moral standing we have and what we have taught our children.

ugh...

and then there is this sweet girl being born.........

He said he can't wait, because then he can get the medical card from the state.

I am just so saddened by the mentality I am hearing from him. Like I told him, Alex, this is NOT how you were raised. Get a grip.

As hard as it is, in my experience, you have to let go and let him hit bottom. It seems like you're enabling him by continually picking up the pieces and making sacrifices for him. Until you stop that, he will have no strong motivation to change. Maybe an *-anon group would be good for you and your family.

Just my opinion...

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I'd like to think I'd call the police, but I can't honestly say I would. What I would do, I think, is cut him out of my life. He's using and abusing your love and support. He steals from you, breaks the law to sell the stuff, and turns back and spits in your face when you question him. Is this the example you want to support for the other children? I would hope I had the spine to turn my back on him.

Whatever you do, I hope it brings you peace.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Actually, I'm really surprised that you've allowed him access to your prescription meds all along given that you know what he's doing with them. I personally could not live with myself knowing that my kid was potentially harming someone else.....and like truble, would be tempted to call the authorities....but that's just me.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

If he's dealing drugs and gets caught, he could get put away for a while again - and by then he may just have that baby around. I would not keep "testing" him - he's obviously going to fail the test time and time again. I'd get him to attend a group - he'd need to show you proof, too - before I'd give them even a little help more.

At this point, help seems like it's enabling him, even though that's obviously never been your intent.

eta: I know you're a good, caring mom - I reread my post and thought it sounded harsher than I wanted it to - I know it's way easier said than done. I hope it all works out!

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I'm with truble and cjs. I realize you want to stay close so you can see your grandchild, and that certainly makes things harder. I guess it's hard for me to say what I'd really do without being in the situation, but I do think that enough is enough.

BTW, you haven't mentioned DH in all this. What does he think?

Please don't take this the wrong way as I do not mean to hurt your feelings but you are a BIG enabler. They have totally no respect for you.

I worry about the new baby but you are not helping a thing. Let them grow up. You might have to let the state know about the drug use and etc. for the baby's sake. This problem is just going to get bigger. You need to be firm and stop enabling now. They will learn how to make money to buy gas, feed themselves and earn money to do their own laundry.

It would be a different story if they were working and doing their best to do the right things for themselves and the baby. Then you could occasional give a helping hand. They need to be left alone to grow up at this point.

How old are these "adults" who have made a baby?

Sometimes it is hard to see what our own actions in things are. What advice would you give a girlfriend going through something like this?

I don't mean to be harsh but you are making the situation worse.

Ask yourself what payoff are you getting from "helping" them? It might make YOU feel good to buy something for them or to feed them but if you really cared about them --pull back and let them grow up. That is what they truely need. You are just keeping the bad situation going.

I think you should take your own adivce: Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be.


I am sorry if this seems harsh. I know you are a warm and giving person but that isn't always the right thing to do.

Hugs,

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Donna

If it were me, I would consult an attorney to fight for custody of the child once it's born and contact the police regarding their activities selling drugs. If the gf is with him when he does it, she is an accomplice. I would NOT want my grandchild raised in that enviroment. I would rather take the child or have the child adopted out. I would not keep enabling the situation as you are doing. I know, that sounds harsh but from what you have said, your love for this unborn child has blinded you into enabling the horrible situation.

good luck

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

"If it were me, I would consult an attorney to fight for custody of the child once it's born and contact the police regarding their activities selling drugs. If the gf is with him when he does it, she is an accomplice. I would NOT want my grandchild raised in that enviroment. I would rather take the child or have the child adopted out. I would not keep enabling the situation as you are doing. I know, that sounds harsh but from what you have said, your love for this unborn child has blinded you into enabling the horrible situation."

I would not waste your money on an attorney. Unfortunately, Grandparents have few legal rights to their grandchildren. It is a very very expensive and long drawn out fight. Even if you have "proof" that he is selling drugs--and it better be Pounds and Pounds, not a few pills, it is unlikely they will have the child taken away. Most likely, he will get a slap on the wrist, probation, maybe a fine. I would say, stay close but have firm boundaries drawn....they will try to use the baby as a pawn in your relationship. "Do what I want or you will not see the baby"....this is very effective when the baby is tiny, but when they have a toddler will tantrums and poopy pants they will need a babysitter!!! Also, check out Al-Anon, even if dss won't participate, you can learn how to respond to them without enabling.

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"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

Death, prison, institutions (as in mental) those are what the addict/alcoholic has to look forward to if they choose not to get help. No one can make them get help they have to want to help themselves. Sure you can be suportive, but they have to want to help themselves to start with. OP, I will be blunt, you are enabeling your son to continue his behavior.

I will share my story with you. My oldest DD who is now in her 30's. when she was a teenager 14-17 had a horrible drinking problem. She was out of control. I was a counselor at that time, well known and knew the court system well but could not get her any help that way because she never broke the law (or they wouldn't take charges anyway, even though I begged them at one point just to get her in the system), so basically I was on my own. I took her to counseling appointments, my insurance approved her for inpatient drug/alcohol treatment at age 15, which she initially agreed to go, but by the time the approval came 5 days later she didn't agree to go and because it was not court ordered (even though she was a minor) she didn't have to go. Tough decision for me, I had already been attending Alanon meeting for about 5 years at that point, then started attending Toughlove meetings. As a single parent with a younger child at home, I knew I had to get control of my household. I lined up friends, lined up her dad in another state to take her for an undetermined amount of time. We, me and 2 friends an ex-cop and a male friend went to my daughters job while she was working (I packed a bag, had bought her a plane ticket previously) picked her up from her job escorted her out with a person on either side of her in the back seat of the car (this is the same kid who had fought with police officers when drunk, so we didn't know exactly how she would respond even though sober, she did many things like tear up my house and destroy property that the police would not take charges against her for, I tried many times, break curfew, runaway, steal a car, wouldn't attend school). We put her on a plane and I sent my baby 1500 miles away for 6 months. In 6 months I went to see her, we had talked on the phone frequently, but I wouldn't let her come home until she agreed to 1. got to AA which she started where she was living and 2. also go to counseling when she came home and continue the AA meetings when she came home. Which she did. When she turned 18, she did whatever she wanted, she had already moved out of the house by that point. She has done some drinking from time to time, but NOW she does not drink at all, she has a college degree, works for DHS and is a state employee, very involved in church and a highly regarded church leader, very responsible, does nothing wrong now. A couple of years ago she thanked me for sending her away so many years ago, she said if I didn't she didn't think she would be alive today. It was a hard decision to make at the time, because no one wants to turn their child away, but sometimes for their own good you have to. Anyway good luck to you!

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I mentioned the attorney because my aunt and uncle did the exact thing I said. Their DD was doing drugs and her bf was selling them. They said we will do nothing for you (ie: tough love) or adopt the kids. They were able to adopt the kids so that DD and BF couldn't use the kids as a pawn anymore. It may not work for everyone but I know at least 3 grandparents that have done it this way and it worked.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Kathy hon I feel so sad for you, as one parent to another these problems are so difficult to deal with, thats why I try soooooo hard to preach over and over about drinking smoking and drugs. However this is about you and your family, as hard as it seems and its never a easy thing to do as a parent but I agree with most agree, sometimes tough love is the way to go and perhaps he will realize just how much you love him and what you did will truly hopefully help him in the end.Being on Drugs and having a new baby is not a mix at all. Personally as others have mentioned I had a cousin growing up who was so bad into drugs all kinds and nearly almost died, however at the height of his addiction, my aunt played into his habit and gave him money because she always said I rather give it to him, then he go rob people, not a wise choice, needless to say, my dad who also has suffered from panic and anxiety as I do, always had medicine around when we were younger. But he was always careful to hide them as best as he thought he was doing and of course my cousin found them always..I sincerely hope and pray for you and your family, kindly keep us posted.. Peace. Catherine

I think you know in your heart what is going on and that you are being played for a sucker. And I also think that has to just be heartbreaking. I wish it was as easy to take your pain away as it is to give advise.

This is an adult.
He has seen two different ways to live and has made his choices.
Fathering a child is a big event and if that hasn't changed his lifestyle, I don't think it will change once the baby arrives.
The girlfriend supports him in his choices.
Just because he is family doesn't mean he is a good person. Charles Manson and Jeffery Damer were family to someone.
I reiterate, he is an adult and knows right from wrong. You are not going to change him by kindness.

Take comfort knowing that you can come here if only to vent, we got your back.
(((Big Hug)))

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Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass
It's about learning to dance in the rain.

I have 2 very dear friends and both of them can tell similar stories as you. As a matter of fact, if I didn't know better I would think one of them actually started this thread except for the fact that they are not at all computer literate and would never be on mycoupons. As a crutch for my friends when they need someone to vent to I have to admit that the constant drama is exhausting to me. I mentioned the other day to friend #1, "how can you expect things to change when you continually do the same thing? People will only do to you what you allow them to. If you keep throwing food out the back door, the cats will keep coming!"

Friend #2 allows her DS to live at home still (graduated from high school in 2000), did a year and a half in prison for breaking into our (yes, the home I live in with my dh) home, do nothing but lay on the sofa all day, cruise in his new car with fancy rims every evening and smoke pot in the garage (with the overhead door up) when everyone is at work everyday. They believe if they hand over $$ to him that he won't steal.

Maybe I'm just too black and white. I truly hate grey areas. I've always told my 2 ds's. These are the rules/laws, and these are the consequences. Done deal.

I feel bad for the stress your DS had placed on you but enabling this behavior only is an avenue for it to continue.

I hope I don't jump around too much here. ..bear with me.

Since he has been 16 (when we placed him in Boystown), we have shown tough love to him..well we always have, I guess, but that was the ultimate "tough love". When he got out of Boystown and then got kicked out of job corp (they sent him home), we refused to allow him to move back in with us.
He is now almost 21, she just turned 19. I was just getting to the point where we were allowing him over, little by little.
For the last three years, since he has been back.. we have done NOTHING for him. Seriously, nothing. Because he wasn't living right. He has disrespected us, and has .how can I put it.. has made a mockery of us as his parents to others, simply because of how he treats other people ..and himself.
He gets this girlfriend..it's been drama for the last two and a half years with them (abuse, drugs, felony theft.. her parents kicking her out.. she's not loved.. etc etc etc)

We hadn't bailed them out when they were in jail (he has been in four times in the last year), we didn't support them financially when they had no place to go (because he was still doing drugs and stealing from others), nor would we let them move in, we didn't help them with furniture, clothing, food.. NOTHING.. one time I did buy dog food and helped try to find the home for a pit bull that they had in their apartment that appeared to have been "stolen" or something....but that was it. I was caring for the dog at that point..lol

We have refused the help, completely.
I REALLY thought he was doing better over the last few months..and my philosophy is.. if you do wrong, I will be the first to hold your feet to the fire; but if you are doing right.. I will be the first to reward.

Reward came in the way of starting to invite them over for dinner occasionally. BUT up until January, we had started locking our doors (something we never did) and told him flat out he could NOT come over even to SEE if we were home unless he called first. We told him and his girlfriend they could NOT come here without us being here.

Then just recently, he was arrested again (because he missed a court date, not because he had done a criminal activity right then, so it was easier to digest..I guess). I was asked to bail him out again.. which I told him no..again.
He sat for a week, and I really started thinking about it. I talked with dh, who was against bailing him out..and I said, you know.. I think he is trying to fly right now. He looked at me like I was mad.. but seriously.. I really felt he was doing better.

So, we bailed him out..and they started coming over more. That's when I noticed the pills (to answer the question..we have all of our medication on the counter, I used to lock them up in a tool box with a combination lock when Alex lived with us, because he would steal the medication..but since he had moved out.. we just never had a reason to do that anymore). I "tested" him because I had to know if he really was on the right path. How I tested was just counting the meds and leaving them on the counter. If that was bad..oh well. I saw it happen twice and the third time was last night. That was when I confronted, and we went and locked up all meds again.

But, it is different this time, like I said before.. I want to stay close to that new baby because I KNOW that there will be severe problems in that home. He is an abuser.. and I don't feel has changed. I am worried..

I would rather have her here as much as possible, then over there in the crap she is going to have to call home. I had to live with him under my roof for 10 years.. I KNOW what life is like with him.


I think I was just believing that finally he was going to do the right things in his life and straighten up.. I jumped to that conclusion too soon..and I am incredibly disappointed in him..and myself for letting my guard down enough to start trusting again.


DH? Someone asked about him. He thinks I am nuts about thinking he is going to fly right. He doesn't trust him at all. As a matter of fact, I was gone when they came over Friday night, dh had gone upstairs to take a nap (he is sick), he calls me on my cell and in a sarcastic, questioning kind of way says "Alex and Jennifer are HERE?" I said, "Yes, I am sorry I didn't tell you, they are coming over to do laundry and visit with Jon while he is here".
He was like.. "Oh great, no sleep for me". I told him "Don't worry, I think he will be okay.. Hon, I think he is trying to do what is right.. I do.. go back to sleep".

He didn't go back to sleep and when I got home about an hour later, they weren't here, and that is when he told me they had to make a "run to go get $25 owed to them".. I said "Huh?"

Went and counted the pills..and sure enough.

I felt horrible....it really just made me look like such a dope ..but I wanted to believe..I really did.

Anyway.. there ya go..that's dh stand on his own son. We have been lock step all of the way in our decisions up until now (with tough love), I am just the one now that is being overly hopeful and consequently, am the one let down. I also feel bad that I have put my family in this position again, because I was wanting so badly to trust him. My dh knew all along, and while he has supported me (like when I told him I was going to bail him out..which he was against, but he went along..albeit not happily).

wanted to add:

I know how the drama can become exhausting..I feel that way sometimes when I post here the things that really bother me.... and even sometimes with my closest friends.

Sometimes I just wonder..why? Is my life REALLY that bad...or do I just talk too much about the crap and others don't??? or...

Am I just bitching and not changing a damn thing so the same crap always happens, over and over and over..I bitch.. go on.. happens again.. bitch again.. ad nauseum.

I just don't know..

But I do want you all to know that you have not offended me.. I am taking to heart the suggestions and even considering your assessments. I am sure there is some truth there in what you say.

I sounds to me like you enjoy the chaos and drama. Who thinks someone is flying right when they are IN jail for the 4th time I think you said.
Are you bored? The boys are growing up and moving out and doing their own thing, and life at home is getting boring, maybe? So to spice it up you invite the druggies over knowing you have meds out on the counter.
Maybe you need to feel needed or helpful to people. Go help someone who will appreciate you and your help. Let your stepson and SDIL fend for themselves... I would cut off all communication with them.

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

Kathy- I'm sorry! You're really in a tough spot.

I'm being the odd one out here, but if I were you I would continue to get things for the baby. I don't know about where you live but here we have baby and kids clothing and supplies sales twice a year. It's moms reselling their baby stuff, and at the end of the sale on the last day , everything is half off. All the stuff is always in great shape, and that is where 75% of my baby's stuff comes from. I also resell his stuff. You get what I'm saying , here most of us know how to get good deals. You could make sure that she has clothing, blankets, baby supplies.

I would also make sure she is on WIC and Medicaid, so the baby will at least have her formula and food lined up, along with the medical help.

I can't remember if you said the mom was doing drugs? Lord I hope not.

Anyways, cut them off EXCEPT for the baby's needs. Tell them you are helping out for the baby only, because they are both adults and need to get their act together. That baby is innocent and didn't ask to be brought into this mess. I would hate to think what it's homelife is going to be like.

Also, PRAY!!! It can work wonders. Hang in there, you are a kind and good person.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger either, so many times I ask myself how things can get so screwed up in my life!! I find myself wondering, does other people have all this bizarre mess going on to, and just handle it better than me?

Fell free to PM me anytime, and keep us posted!!

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*** Find A Need , Fill A Need ***

[ISusiecat, I won't even honor your ridiculous assumption with a reply.



Ballmom,

She is not doing drugs. She doesn't smoke, doesn't take ANY medications and seems to be doing the "right" things for her new baby. I had a talk with her in the car today when we went to go get some items that were given to her. I told her that she needs to think about what she is doing in her life, and how she is accepting how others treat her. I told her, unless you want your daughter growing up the same way you were (welfare family with abuse), and allowing men to treat her abusively, SHE is going to have to show her that she is worth more by how SHE acts..and what she shows her is acceptable.

Her and Alex used to cuss so bad, and I have seen that cut down. For her, it is almost non existent.

Who knows, she may just talk a good talk as well as my stepson does. I don't know. But I have met her mom, I have seen the trash they live in, and the way they live their life. I have not witnessed the abuse, but I can tell that their home life is less than conventional, and definitely not up to the standards I would want any child to live in.

I would probably help her first any day, then I would my step son.. but I am very guarded in that area as well.

Look, I am just extremely excited about having this grandchild, but again, I know that it is going to be a case of walking on egg shells, and then eventually it might mean cutting all ties completely. So here I am investing so much of myself (excitement wise, and getting ready, baby showers, etc) just to possibly be setting myself up for a huge let down.

But I don't want to just NOT get involved because of that fear or possibility, you know? I am an adult and I guess that is just life. I'm just going to take it as it is, and try not to get too involved with their problems.

Sounds to me as if the mom-to-be is straightening up her act to some degree, but DSS is not. To me, that's all the more reason to ensure that he is kept in jail or put in jail for breaking the law further. Perhaps that's the best way to protect the grandchild and attempt to get this situaiton on the right track. Knowing me, I would help provide for the infant in a way that doesn't give the parents things to pawn or turnover into doing things they should not. That would include NOT providing infant formula powder - which is apparently used for cutting some drugs.

But that's me sitting here on the sofa and not living it. Good luck with whatever you do, Kathy.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

What worries me is -- how do you know for sure she's not taking drugs or doing or bad things? She's hanging out with your SS, that's not a good idea while he's acting as a drug dealer. You are doing things for them -- you're providing them with meals and, unwittingly, a source of income. I know you're trying to do what you think is right, but the more I'm hearing, the more I think that the only right thing to do is to report the theft of prescription meds and let him rot in jail for a while. If the girl is truly going the straight and narrow, let her live with you so you can make sure the baby is ok. But the SS? I think it's time to toss his worthless butt out onto the street. That would really be some tough love, I know, but he doesn't appear to have learned his lesson.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I still stand by what I wrote. Nothing written since has changed my views.

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Donna

I guess my only advice would be to get the number of CPS and be prepared to call it at any time once the baby is born. Also, be prepared to take the baby if CPS has it removed.

DO NOT give them any more money, food, gas, etc. Only give them things for the baby that can't be easily converted to cash such as secondhand clothes.

Good luck.

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Jesus SAVES by shopping smartly and using double coupons!

Yes! This one sentence sums it up perfectly. I'm sorry but you asked and you shouldn't ask a leading question if you don't want to hear the obvious answer.

Nothing will ever change for you until you decide to stop playing the martyr. I've seen dozens of your posts and it's always the same old refrain: "Oh, I'm just so loving, caring, kind, and good and look at how poorly my family treats me". There must be some part of you that enjoys this or else you would stop setting yourself up for it.

if you really want things to be different then you should admit that you bear a great deal of responsibility for your problems and stop enabling your son's behavior. From your many, many posts on the subject of your family, it's clear that you thrive on drama and in addition to allowing it to continue are actually helping to create it. Nobody could think that someone who has been in jail four times in one year was 'flying right' and anyone could guess the outcome of bailing him out again. You say your son's a criminal and yet no matter what he does, you enable him to continue his destructive behavior.

Your grown son came to your home with his pregnant girlfriend and stole from you and same as usual, he lied to your face. And what did you do? Same as usual, you let it go and continued on through the night like nothing happened. It's not "so sad", it's predictable. You ask how could they do this to you and themselves when they have so many people helping them? They can do it because you allow them to do it. Your son is an adult so it's too late now to be a parent but it's not to late to stop being his doormat. You can't expect your son to respect you when you let him walk all over you and treat you like garbage. You're not helping him by allowing him to treat you so poorly.

Susiecat is on the right track but this ongoing problem has nothing to do with your boys getting older and fear of an empty nest. You've been the drama martyr for years even when they were young and you didn't take advice then, either. I remember that people tried and you got mad when they said anything you didn't want to hear. You only wanted sympathy then and judging from your remark to Susiecat, it's all you want now. You don't have to honor my 'ridiculous assumption' with a reply either but sometimes, other people can see what you can't and sympathy hasn't changed anything for you in all these years.

I've noticed that not once in all this time have you taken any responsibility at all for the way your children turned out. You always insult their biological parents and blame every one of your children's problems on their heritage. While they may have a genetic disposition to alcohol and drug abuse, genetics aren't a blanket excuse for every criminal act they see fit to commit. You make excuses, enable the behavior, and rush to post how victimized you are.

You'd be doing your granddaughter a favor by finally taking responsibility for your past mistakes and stop making the same mistakes over and over again. It may make you feel better to trash your son's natural parents and say that he's just carrying their torch but it won't help him stop doing these things to you and other people. You had ten years to teach him the difference between right and wrong and were unable to do it so you can't blame it all on his natural parents.

If (as you believe), all your son's problems are caused by his bloodline, then (by your reasoning), your granddaughter is getting a quadruple whammy! She has the blood of her criminal father and the blood of her alcoholic grandparents on one side and the blood of her criminal mother and the blood of her abusive grandparents on the other side. Even if (as you say), none of your son's problems were caused by your parenting and all of it was caused by his genetic disposition, the environment in which your son was raised (the environment you provided) didn't overcome this criminal 'genetic disposition' of his.

It doesn't mean that it's your fault that it didn't. It just means that whatever you did didn't work so what makes you think you'll do any better this time around using the same methods? Common sense should tell you to make some changes.

I think environment plays a larger role in how a child turns out than genetic disposition but even if you disagree, it's a fact that your granddaughter's bloodline can't be changed. Since her genetic disposition can't be altered, the only hope this poor child has is that her waiting environment will improve. Her parents need to change their environment if they want to raise a happy, healthy child. They need to make that choice and act on it. You can't control their behavior, you can only control how you react to it.

Your environment won't change until you stop making excuses for your son and his girlfriend and let them take full responsibility for their actions. If you don't do that, your granddaughter is doomed and the cycle will move to the next generation. You can claim that she was already genetically doomed but it doesn't need to be her fate and it won't be if changes are made now.

I'm sure that you'll think I'm cruel and vicious but I'm not trying to be. I'm just telling you my opinion and you can ignore it and continue your cycle of chaos. I think you'd do better to take your own signature line's advice and grow a backbone instead of wishing things were better. However, if the feeling of martyrdom and the excitement of high drama brings you more pleasure than peace, then do exactly what you admitted you do, bitch, go on, bitch again.(ad nauseum) and carry the cycle down to the next generation."Not changing a damn thing", means nothing will change. You can rest assured that your granddaughter will pay the price.

You've certainly got a big mess on your hands. FWIW, my advice is to get some guidance for yourself and your d/h. Get to either AA or AlAnon or NA and talk to some people who have walked this walk and taken the hard steps to bring peace and boundaries to their lives. I know this is not about alcoholism, but the behaviors & manipulations of a drug user are the same party. And then DO what they advise, even if it is difficult. What you both have done till now has not worked, so you don't have much to lose.

I have to agree that your surprise & disappointment is confusing. The best indicator of your SS's future behavior is his past behavior, so he is just rolling along, doing the same things as always, and you cannot be shocked by this. He has done absolutely nothing to show you he is committed to changing his life. He's not holding a responsible job, working his ass off to provide for his baby, keeping company with people leading lives to admire, or making up in any way for his past behavior. This crap works for him, so on and on it goes. Whatever his genetics, he is a big boy now and is making choices with every breath he takes. And they are all lousy.

I absolutely have sympathy for anybody who is watching their grandchild be born to parents who are a train wreck. It must be terrible to just want to protect the baby and know you cannot. As many have already advised, there are social services available to provide food for the baby. Whenever you want to give them anything, you need to take a long look at whether it will be sold/traded for drugs or whatever they want for themselves. Open your doors to your granddaughter, have plenty of whatever she needs for when she is with you, welcome her mother as long as she lives clean & straight (but realize she will most likely steal/lie/manipulate as well). Let them drop her off (which they will want to do as she will really restrict their lifestyle), enjoy her, protect her, and don't believe a word they say. Believe what they do.

I agree with every word, point, and thought typed in this post cougarskies has summed up a great deal, and very nicely.

The only thing I will add, is: do NOT give them anything for the baby that you wouldn't give any of your other son's babies. Don't do it. They figured out how to make a baby and they can figure out how to take care of a baby. Give them a gift (or put some money aside for the baby in an account or buy savings bonds, etc for the future) and nothing more.

Until it's definite and clear and no mistake and reality and an undisputed fact (not your opinion) that the baby is at risk or in danger, keep out of it. You will only be repeating your behaviour and be right back here typing away again about how great you are and once again how awful everyone else is.

Harsh, but honest on both our parts. Look deeper into yourself.

dl

Way to go, Mom! Everybody knows that if you ignore a theft, the thief will want to change.

Way to go, Mom! Everybody knows that if you laugh out loud and aid and abet a theft, the thief will want to change.

How hard did you laugh when he committed his felony?

LOL! Now that IS funny!

Good God. Predispositioned? So he was born to be a liar and thief and what could a parent do. That's the lamest excuse I ever heard. Talk about being in denial! Did you ever think that may be, just may be, laughing and helping your stepson get away with his crimes made him what he is today? How is he ever going to change when you still ignore his crimes and laugh while you clean up for him? And why would he want to? Living a good decent life won't be the riot fest he's got going with you now.

MEAN,MEAN, MEAN. The woman is asking for constructive help. I hope you don't give these types of answers to your kids if they ask for help.

The Cafe can always count on a few of its patrons to pour hot coffee on someone at the next table who doesn't behave perfectly

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Don't forget his predisposition to be a gambler and to go against his mates wishes as you have recently in your past 2 subjects proclaim. There is also the family gossip issue and the knowledge that momma will add more pills to the stash and leave it out on the counter for anyone who enters the house to steal.. If you are done with the meds flush them.

She's asked for help before, giving many details, just like in this particular chapter. When someone doesn't agree with, it's all bad. She's already lashed out at susiecat and I didn't read the entire diatribe. It wasn't a mean post at all.

dl

I get the feeling no matter what I say, it will be misconstrued. Don't get me wrong, but I do agree with much of what has been said (and no, not just the ones that agree with me..please...if I felt that I was always right, WHY would I come here seeking advice???)

But, what I will say, is that unless you have a PHD in Child psychology (which we had working with our child) and unless you understand the child psyche on that level, you can not say that a child is NOT predispositioned in the womb, or is affected psyhologically to what happens to them from birth to 5 years of age. But, I am not here to try and give you a lesson on psychology, and you should not be making assumptions either, based on what I do find to be ignorant information.

My dh and I HAVE shown tough love to this boy.. it has just RECENTLY changed where I was giving him a chance (did you not read that?). HOWEVER, the one part that I can say is our fault for his learning to play victim, is that before we got custody..when they would come over beat up and bruised.. we would call the police and report, report, report. Alex learned very quickly that by being a victim, all attention would be removed from him and placed on those he felt "wronged" him. Instead of dealing with the issues at hand (what did you do wrong? not that it would ever give reasoning to physical abuse), it was all of a sudden about someone else going to jail, or parents being in trouble with the authorities (which it should have been, but it was warped in a way). We have also been the target of this as well, and I blame not only ourselves, but the system as well, that helped to enable him to continue on with his behaviours without real consequences. We take total blame for this, because "we" went around "fixing" the immediate problem instead of .. maybe doing it a different way. but I mean, COME ON.. how ELSE do you deal with a child who comes over all bruised up.. other than trying to correct the problem? Ignore it??

So, I can say that we and other agencies did play on his past abuse and gave him the "I am so sorry you had such a raw deal handed to you" in the early years after he came to live with us. BUT, by the time he was a young adult (16) and after YEARS of psyhotherapy for the family and for him invested, I told him that it was time for him to quit feeling sorry for himself and HE is the one choosing to carry on the torch by continuing the cycle. We gave him the tools to be successful. We were supportive and caring parents, who worked very hard to balance their lives with not only natural consequences for behavior, but also giving consequences for bad behviour. I WILL NOT AGREE that we were not (based on what some have said). Because I know differently.

When the parents that he lived with in Boystown called us up after two years of having Alex and APOLOGIZED to us for assumptions THEY made about what we did or didn't do, I knew then that dealing with a child like this can have severe consequences on how you look at yourself as a parent, and how others perceive what you do or don't do. Up until that point, I kept second guessing what we did or didn't do.. because I felt like everyone else wasn't walking in the shoes we were and could NOT believe that there could be such a problem with a young child/young man in the way that there is.

Tammy, I will not call the police unless he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, because we have BTDT over the years.. UNLESS there is proof, and really there isn't other than the fact that they were there before he got there, and gone after they left to go "sell" them.. that is not proof enough for ANYONE to do anything. I have been told this many times by the police, and honestly.. the drama I am so sick of when it comes to this (dealing with the authorities who never end up doing anything). Alex has had his hand slapped so many times by agenciies that were supposed to be there to hold him accountable, that eventually it became a joke.
If we are responsible, in part, for his outcome.. so is the system that never held him accountable and showed him that by being a victim (of his own doing) he can get away with whatever he wants to do.

I don't know if I said this, but in hindsight, what I should have done was put Ibuprophen or some other non narcotic medication in the bottle instead of keeping the Vicodin there. I could kick myself for not having the forsight to do that.

Anyway, I hear what many of you are saying. I agree with most of it and am taking it to heart.

BUT just because I come here and share the negative stuff, does not mean that my life is not filled with mostly wonderful things as well. There are way more positive then there are negative in my life. It's just I thiink we all want life to go along smoothly with no bumps.. so we tend to focus on those things that are the hardest to handle at the moment..

Half full-half empty..whatever...I have used this board as my sounding block for things (little or big) that bug me, instead of only posting the positive.

Maybe I should do that.. tell you all how wonderful the other boys are..and what they do that makes me "I am soooo happy.......and satisfied!!!!!"


I want to be in this baby's life..I am not, nor will I ever be perfect, but I am going to try damn hard to NOT be an enabler through all of this, just because a "baby is on board". I won't go to the extent some of you say (of ignoring the issue).. I never have.. so not sure where that came from..... it is just hard right now to find the balance of holding them accountable without isolating them from our lives. If I do that, they will not bring the baby over and not that I am perfect, but she needs to have at least ONE positive adult in her life.. and I do believe my dh and I are.

Anyway, thanks...

The woman asks for constructive help all the time and NEVER takes any of the constructive help people keep giving her - help that was previously nicely given, I might add. I tried to help her and she insulted me along with everybody else who tried because she just wants to be told she's a saint for putting up with the people who mistreat her. Unless they just say "Poor you. I feel so sorry for you", she insults the people who really try to help her and then deletes the whole thread. I know because I've seen her do it - I've seen her do it a lot. I guess you missed all her midnight threads that went poof. Of course you did because she deleted them whenever anyone suggested that she stop laughing and start parenting. Which is why she's still looking for constructive help. She wouldn't need it if she'd listened to it in all those other threads!

I disagree with your choice not to call the police. You do have proof. The drugs were there before he got there and gone when he left and no one else took them. That's proof. I guarantee his fingerprints are on the prescription bottle -- and what reason is there for that? If you won't do that, I'd just ban him from your house. If he tries to come over, get a restraining order against him. He's using this baby to get to you, I think -- if you're willing to live with that, then God bless you and I wish you well. If you aren't willing to be walked over by this kid for the next 40 years, then I think you need to take a stand right now.

It's your choice and I hope, whatever you choose, that it brings you the peace of knowing you did what was best for you.

ETA: It's not often I agree with Kathytheshopper, but I think she's absolutely correct.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I also want to add, so it is not missed because of my long posts.. that yes, I do agree and many of you have pointed out something that I am coming to terms with.. I am and can be an enabler.

My fear is of being too strict, too stringint (sp).. and not finding a balance there. It seems as if I can't find that balance sometimes, and I either go one way or the other.

In response to the gambling thing...PLEASE..it was one time and I was upset with myself. Done.. over with.. OMG...

That is not true! This community has been very helpful in me realizing some things in my life. At the same time, there are a few here that get targeted by the "drama queens" in this place. If they talk about the negative in their life, there are those that POUNCE on them and create the drama they are accusing the poster of doing.

You can call it what you want, but some on here are very good at the art of verbally abusing another.

Oh, and "poof".. lol (yeah, I am laughing,, maybe I should put LQTM instead-laughing quietly to myself- so you don't get offended that I can laugh at something) anyway, I have only deleted maybe 3-4 threads completely since I have started posting here. Information that was sensitive to my sisters and one that was sensitive to the life of me and my dh..

I know it drives you crazy though, and you want to make a bigger deal about it than what it really is..

By the way, my tag line was placed as a reminder to me..not that it is something that I always do.

ETA: I do like the idea of Alanon.. great advice. I am going to check into it.

Well if this is the way you feel just don't post to her!!! Maybe she just wants to vent, maybe she needs reinforcement, maybe some new ideas...You never know when something will hit someone as something new and they will try it. I don't keep up with everyone's life on here to have a detailed history like you do. If she really bothers you just ignore her and the thread will be kept in a more positive light, don't you think????
Also, unless you are in someones shoes, it's very hard to judge or tell someone else how to live their life. None of us are perferct, all of us make mistakes. SHe may be enabling, she may be doing things some of us wouldn't do but who are we to judge? We don't walk in her shoes. I would have a hard time distancing myself from that grandchild myself. The kid shouldn't have to pay for the sins of the parents. It's a very difficult situation with a baby coming.

I think you're right here, Kathy. It's so easy to play armchair quarterback with someone else's life, but none of us come with rulebooks and when you are dealt a lot of curveballs - more than the average person - knowing how to handle them is often a mystery. You are trying to factor in all the various scenarios and figure out which is likely to result in the least harm for the most innocent, how to keep the door open so you can possibly maintain some sphere of influence, and yet not give off vibes that you accept something that is wholly unacceptable.

I know some people are predispositioned towards behavior that is not acceptable. I've spent a fair amount of time recently with a bi-polar young lady that my heart just aches for... and that I absolutely can't tolerate because she drives me insane. I knew her mother when she was this age. She was taken from her mother before she was a year old and has not seen her since... and yet, it's like someone hit "replay" and we're seeing her mother all over again. The outbursts, the lack of a filter, the inappropriate need to be the center of attention in a moment when the other 40 people in the room are contemplatively silent.... it drives me up the wall, and yet of all the people I know, she's the one I feel the saddest for and try harder to keep the lines of communication open for because I know where she's come from and know that so much of this behavior really can't be helped. She's been hospitalized twice in the last month for terribly erratic behavior.

I remember the way people felt about her mother, and looked at her mother's mother and thought, "Why can't she do something about that kid?" Now that we're seeing all this de javu ... we understand that the mom was probably doing everything she knew to do, and it wasn't enough.

Kathy, I don't have a single answer for you, other than the fact that if you can keep the girl close and the SS far away, you might have a better shot at being a positive influence on your granddaughter. You'll be in my prayers.

I don't know if I said this, but in hindsight, what I should have done was put Ibuprophen or some other non narcotic medication in the bottle instead of keeping the Vicodin there.
I could kick myself for not having the forsight to do that.
Flush the meds away.. I f you don't you are an enabler.
AS for the gambling aligation you yourself said that you have gambled several times at the casino and the last time you lost 300 dollars. THis time it was 3,000.
You are in denial.
Your husband the father of this young man said "NO" he can not come over and you knowingly invited them over and absented yourself from the home so that you could test him to see if the drugs would go missing. That is enabling and that is drama. There is no reason for the meds to be out on the counter in the kitchen, you no longer need them an they are a narcotic and it is ok to flush them.
You have asked for advise now lets see if you take it.

OHHGOD~
Dont let these guys get to you. Opal is just a mean, spiteful old lady. I am sure her family treats here like **** so she passes it on...

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Be careful what you wish for.....

I totally agree do not let what opal said cause you Kathy to leave, you have choosen to talk about some serious personal issues, that one day could or will affect anyone of us. As I said before kathy, hon your a special person and I have love reading all your posts and total respect you, so please please do not leave, hang in there sweetie. Peace. catherine

If they can not buy the things this baby needs then in no way should it being going home with them. A wonderful new baby - that everyone loves and supplies things for become a child very quickly and no one is around to support these people -who have shown time and time again they are not adults- and the child has a high chance of being abused and neglected

FIND AN ADOPTIVE FAMILY

The best thing to do is to get some professional help and advice. If your son needed a heart bypass we would not all be telling you how to drug him, hold him down and start cutting.

You are too close to the situation. Love is blinding you. Please Kathy for the love of the baby please get some professional help.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Great spelling, dear and my family treats "here" well. I think it's sad that you are so desperate for friends that you overlook any character flaw as long as someone is nice to you online!

Ohhgodd is aiding and abetting her son in his criminal activity. It's very bad to overlook her grown up son stealing from her and know that he's selling her drugs that are going to end up in the hands of children. It's bad to bail him out of jail so he's free to commit more crimes but there's no excuse in overlooking and helping him care for a stolen pet. This is a 20 year old with a pregnant girlfriend he's not man enough to support and he's causing some family anguish and heartache by stealing their dog. He can't support or feed himself or that animal so Kathy does both for him. It's bad enough for Kathy to not have the guts any normal mother would have and just pretend that nothing is wrong when he steals but to LAUGH about his theft is disgusting. That's why he is the way he is and all the LOL in the world doesn't change that! Laughing out loud at her 20 year old son while he does bad things isn't cute or funny - it's terrible and a good mother wouldn't do it.

Just because somebody sends you supportive pms doesn't make them a nice person, you know. A nice person doesn't laugh when their 20 year old son steals someone's pet!

And it's not my fault Kathy left. Kathy posts unflattering personal stuff and she knows she's wrong. Kathy leaves EVERY time somebody doesn't agree with her and she always comes back and insults people who genuinely tried to help her. It's a pattern. She gets off on the attention of pretending to leave. She's done it before and she'll do it again. She was already back again last night so don't worry, she can't keep her word - again.

You'll get her back and you can tell her how right she is to abet her son in his criminal behavior. I'm sure she'll do the same for you. You must be birds of a feather if you defend her doing that! But you'll cry and complain loudly if someone steals your pet, won't you? Helping the thief get away with it will seem wrong to you then, won't it? Or are you so lonely that ANY friend is better than none? Where do you draw the line on what behavior you accept? Are you so lonely you don't have a line because it sounds that way. It's disgusting to need a friend that badly!

I didn't make her leave but which part of Kathy do you "respect" the most - a mother who allows her son to steal or a mother who actually helps her son continue his crime? You think this is respectable behavior? Will you be crying if they steal your pets or will you just 'respect' her some more? LOL.

" It's disgusting to need a friend that badly!" It sounds like you do. Lonely horrible old woman who does nothing but crap on other people and talk to them like garbage.

I am a mother and I know what it is to VENT about something your child did. We are not all as heartless and mean as you. Not everyone can turn their back on their child. I bet, given the situation, you may act completely different towards you child...

"You think this is respectable behavior?" Look at the way you talk to people! IS that respectable? No that is a mean bitter old woman who talks to everyone like they are garbage!

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Be careful what you wish for.....

I would NEVER help my children harm someone else but I think you just proved my point about you! I'd LOL but it's really not funny.

Can you please explain how her child HARMED someone else??

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Be careful what you wish for.....

He's selling drugs to them

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

I always find it amusing for posters to presume/assume another poster has no friends IRL--All because they don't like something you have said, or the way you have said it.

Not having read the OP, but having read the subsequent posts from others: It's far easier to lay blame on a person being "predisposed" to a behaviour, than it is to accept the fact that YOU may have contributed to that behaviour. Human behaviour is generally part nature and part nurture.
Furthermore, if you set a person up for failure, then odds are they will fail! If you know a person is a recovering alcoholic do you invite them over and offer them a drink? Just to test their resolve? Not if you truly care about that person.
Same goes w/ addicts (and while OP's DSS may not techinically be an addict--I bet he's done his fair share of illicit substances). You don't invite them and leave NARCOTICS where they are easily accessible.
Boundaries and rules---best taught and enforced when a child is still young in age, however, sometimes you have to set and enforce them later in life as well.

And lastly--there isn't one poster on here who can run me off(sorry, I know some would like to). If you are so thin-skinned, and so sensitive that anonymous posters on a public message board can effect your psyche and sense of well being...then you probably should consider seeking some serious psychiatric therapy. If, however you realize that you may be too "involved" in an online message board, and you decide that you need to take a step back then that's your decision. But, bidding adieu over and over again gets tiresome, so be careful how you use your goodbyes!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Last I checked he was not cramming them down peoples throats...I truly can not stand when people blame the dealers and accuse the dealers of all this vile stuff...
That is so far from the truth!!

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Be careful what you wish for.....

Sorry, but that is not proof as far as the law goes -- her DH was also in the house at the time and she has a younger DS too (not sure if he was home or not). I'm not saying either of these people took the pills (probably not), but there were others who could have removed them from the bottle for whatever reason. Also, it would be her word against his -- she said there were a certain number of pills in the bottle when she left and 5 fewer when she returned. She could just be making that up to get him in trouble (not saying that she is), but that is how the lawyers will twist it all around. They would probably argue that if she thought someone was taking them, why didn't she secure them and turn it on her.

Proof would be if someone actually saw him physically take the pills out of the bottle or sell them, or if she had pictures or video or him taking them. Otherwise, everything else is circumstantial.

The law is 'innocent until proven guilty and believe it or not, it's sometimes very difficult to get a guilty verdict.

But, does the fact that others are willingly buying illegal and/or illicit substances make it any better that there are people who would sell their grandmother's pain meds?

It's a vicious circle--one cannot exist without the other. Both are at fault.

Plus, if he is selling drugs of any shape form or fashion, what kind of lifestyle and/or people will his pregnant wife/girlfried be exposed to? And if both of them are accepting of a questionable lifestyle what will their child be exposed to or witness to?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I DID explain it! Read all the posts and if you still don't understand how people are being harmed, then me explaining AGAIN won't help you understand.

My Aunt buys drugs from people for $5 - $7 a pill. She is so addicted to them she makes her family do without food a lot of the time. She really doesn't care who suffers, just as long as she has enough to buy uppers and downers.
She has stolen property from my granny, my mother and me just to sell or trade for PILLS.
If people like OP's SS wasn't selling pills on the black market like that.. our family wouldn't have suffered so.
She used to come up here and use my phone to call "hunting pills". Once I found out that's what the calls where for I cut off all ties with her and her family (my uncle and cousins) I don't want to help them in anyway. I haven't regretted it for one minute. I got tired of them trying to make me feel bad because they were very short on food most of the month.

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Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.