who are at fault when children don't succeed in school???

I have found that those children who have parental involvement at school tend to do better, no matter what the teaching style of the teacher is.

Anyone care to weigh in on this??? I'm really tired of hearing how our schools are failing our childen. I don't think all the blame belongs there.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I think it can be a combination of things, but generally, I agree that if children have parental involvement, then they tend to fare better. Although money is a large factor (those schools with a larger percentage of those who don't have a great deal of it) are usually the ones failing. Many of those parents work so much, they really don't have the time or the energy for much else. I'm not placing blame. They're probably doing the best they can just to keep food on the table and expecting the teachers to do the rest.
Schools and teachers are expected to deal with so much, sometimes the bare minimum amount of time is spent actually teaching. I'm all for the shorter school day. Even though I work full-time, I'd give up (and I know I have the LUXURY of doing so, while many do not) my work time to have my kids home rather than having them suffer through 6-7 hours of school, when really only 3 hours or less are actually spent being taught.

I too think it's a combo of all things. Even in great schools (which I feel our schools are), there are a lot of faults. Unless you want to home school (which I don't), you have to live with it. I think many more schools (from my observation), are catering to the children with needs and/or the children who are slower learners. I am sure that if my children fell into that category, I would be elated BUT the kids who are average and/or bright are often bored and unchallenged. Funding isn't going to gifted programs or music or art.

I am involved in my kids and their education and think that does help with their studies but I do find myself biting my tongue a lot regarding homework and "busy work", and CSAP's. My son actually likes taking tests and he's going to flip out when he finds out that he'll miss 3 days of the CSAP testing next month, especially when the school sends out dozens of papers saying "don't miss school...period during these dates". They don't give you the dates beforehand and our spring break was pre-planned. Who plans CSAPs the week before and after spring break? REAL genius at work there....

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

We have been and continue to be extremely fortunate with our children's schools. For a really oddball reason my kids go to two different Elementary schools. One is in a more affluent neighborhood, and one is the "overflow" school and is in a less affluent neighborhood. I can say without hesitation that both these schools are wonderful. Filled with caring and compassionate folks from the Principal down to the janitors. They truly love their jobs! And the school encourage parental involvement. Both schools actually have a huge amount of parental involvement--regardless of whether the parent is a member of the State Legislature (we do live in the State Capital) or a cashier at Wal-Mart. It's uncanny sometimes. The youngest has had parent volunteers since Kindergarten to read with them (actually all classes do up until 4th grade I believe). We don't have PTA or PTO--it's always termed Parents for xxx Elementary, or Parents of xxx elem.
Youngest is in the less affluent neighborhood school--and that school has an integrated arts curriculm. Every subject integrates some aspect of art. And at the end of the year the school puts on a huge art walk/gala that typically raises $10K!
My point is, while money does play a factor--parental involvement and teacher/staff dedication is the biggest factor in my opinion.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

One thing I see here that has complicated the situation for teachers is that in the name of rectifying special needs/problems, kids are being pulled from the classroom for other things at an alarming rate.

We have had a fairly large influx if HIspanic students over the last few years, and they don't speak English, yet they are mainstreamed into English-speaking classrooms. We don't have a single classroom teacher who speaks Spanish at our Elem. School. Until about 2005, nobody needed to know it and we really haven't hired any new teachers since then, so unless a teacher took the initiative on her own time (and dime!) to go take college Spanish courses somewhere (and the nearest university with such courses is a good hour away!), they wouldn't have acquired the language recently.

So... we have about 25% of our students who fit this demographic and who spend a good portion of the day revolving in and out of the regular classroom and going to the ESL (English as a Second Language) teacher for special assistance. That's disruptive not only to the teacher and the Spanish-speakers, but causes a day full of hiccups for the English-speaking students.

It's compounded with the fact that we have special reading for those whose scores fall in the lower 50th percentile nationally on standardized reading tests. Those kids are pulled for part of the day.

We've also got kids coming and going for speech therapy, occupational therapy, and vision therapy.

I have a relative who is a teacher in our local system, and last year she had one 30 minute period during the course of the week when every single one of her students was in the room at the same time.

It's difficult to teach anything of substance in a situation like that!

I also think that schools have created the unintended consequence of supplanting parental roles when they have attempted to rectify so many problems that used to be dealt with at home. Mom's don't teach a lot of girls about "girl issues" because they get that lesson in 4th grade from a teacher with a filmstrip. Families don't take their kids to the library because they get library books from the school library and they are in their desks at school. so mom and dad have no great 'reading radar' for what is up with their kids and their reading habits. The schools tell them about sex and the schools give them birth control. The schools test their vision and hearing. The schools teach them about being nice to their neighbors, not just by default as part of the course of the day, but they have entire units of study that last entire quarters over basic manners.

The more roles like that that schools assume, the less involved many parents think they need to be. And the more non-3-R topics the schools assume the responsibility for, the less time they have to teach academics.

I realize that in some ways there is a financial link between families and involvement levels, but I wouldn't link that, entirely, with parents working too many hours to be involved. What I see here is that ... gosh, how do I even explain this?? There are adults who are just plain lazy and uninvolved in their children's lives. Perhaps it's a drug-related issue or alcohol-related issue or just selfishness and laziness, but typically adults who have those habits/bents carry those habits/bents into both their parenting and into their drive to work. It's not so much the lack of money that is at the root of it. The lack of money is a product of the lifestyle and lack of financial ambition that those parents hold... and that lack of ambition is often also present where their kids are concerned.

For better or worse, you also see parents who are very involved because they see the success of their child as a measure of PERSONAL success for themselves. Because success is important to them - it's something they personally value - they pursue success in their work (which often translates to more money) and they have high expectations for the success of their children... and therefore, are highly involved. The end result of those driven, ambitious parents' actions is financial stability and means, and children who are at the top of the pack.

And for them, it's not just that the money *caused* the gateway... it's that the same parental personality traits that drove them to obtain wealth also spill over into their parenting, and the kids are the recipients of their parent's drive to see them succeed.

just an aside--you're showing your age! They don't have 'filmstrips' much anymore....(I got your point--I just realized that I'm getting old, because I remember the filmstrip, projector, pulling down the screen, etc. from my elem. school days)

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Had to laugh at the filmstrip reference also ;-) I used that term the other day when telling my teens some story from my youth, and they had no idea what I was talking about. To them *film* is that stuff left on dishes or tub/sink when not cleaned properly ;-)
MZ

First, I think its a combination of all involved parties, but if its public school we're talking about, I do think the schools are failing our students due to state and federal mandates and cirruriculum. They spend so much time teaching for the standardized tests because they *need* the kids to do well so they can get a good rating under NCLB. I think NCLB was a good idea in theory, but in practice it is awful, especially for above average kids.
The schools get more money by mainstreaming special needs kids (who probably should not be mainstreamed). This means that the teacher has to spend a lot of time with the special needs kids and not as much time with the rest of the kids. Before NCLB, these special needs kids would be in their own small class and could learn at their own level.

I think one HUGE problem is that the school has to take on so many roles. There are way, way, way more behavior & character issues that the school has to deal with today than when I was in school 20+ years ago. Back then you behaved right or there were big consequences -- like getting spanked in the principal's office if you did something bad enough. While I don't support something like that, it happend very, very rarely, but was enough of a threat that we hardly had any behavior issues. Now there are so many behavior problems and not a lot the school can really do about it -- time outs, note home to parents who don't really take it seriously or even care, sent to the principals office who makes you sit there all day and that's it.

Also, there is so much paperwork that has to be kept both for the county and the state but also if a parent questions something. The teachers spend a lot of time doing reporting rather than simply being able to teach. In our district, they have to carefully document pretty much everything. Especially in the lower grades, that is difficult because they have to record the date a student masters certain skills. In the older grades, they can go by grades alone, but they have to keep copies of every graded assignment so they can return the original to the student -- that is just crazy (and wasteful of paper) to me.

I agree that it is true that schools with high parent involvement do better. I think that's because these kids tend to be better behaved as well as better prepared for the school day. They come to school fed and dressed properly to learn. Parents take an interesting in what the kids are learning which means the kids are more interested because they know someone cares. By being involved in your child's school you show your child that you think school is important. If a child thinks school is important (a priority) they will work harder and thus do better.

We, as parents, are ultimately responsible for the education of our kids. If we don't like the way things are run in our local schools we have several choices.
The first and most obvious choice is to become well informed about those running for our elected school board choices and to vote appropriately according to our beliefs on the subject.
Second choice is to do the same for state and federal candidates.
Third choice (which we thankfully still have) is to home school, but that is not always a feasible choice for families.
Fourth choice is that if we can afford it, send our kids to private schools that agree with our ideas of a proper education for kids.
But in the end, we, as parents, are responsible for our kids' educations. If we can't, or don't want to invest in choosing who dictates how our kids will be educated, how can we complain? The term Nanny State means we leave our kids' educations to others w/little or no input from us, as parents.
Whether our kids go to public or private schools, or if they are home schooled, we are the parents, the ones charged with the responsibility of educating them.
If you believe in public schooling, get involved personally in whatever ways you time and other constraints may dictate or else send them to private schools or hs them.
Schools are not parents, should never be expected to be, IMNSHO.
MZ

I agree but many try to be.

Besides homeschooling, we don't have many options here. Private schools are religious and we aren't so attending those are out of the question and homeschooling is not feasible for us. I am as involved as I can be but my opinion is VERY unpopular with teachers. I know a few parents who feel the same way as I do on a variety of topics but refuse to stand up and let it be known. They are happier "not rocking the boat". We do go to a school of choice instead of our "Home school" because I liked the classes/teachers/gifted classes better than our home school's. My kids are happy and we supplement using life lessons at home when we can. It's hard being the only one willing to stand up and say "hey, I don't agree with this"...but I do it. Obviously, one person is not going to heard amidst the more *popular* vote of the school board and teachers

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

I agree wholeheartedly. My son had the best education because of ME along with his school and teachers. I set him up for success every single step of the way.

Of course if you live in a poverty stricken place there may not be much teaching going on in the school.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Absolutely! I think that mainstreaming is a great disservice to ALL children. What's the benefit?

I think the vast majority of problems come from a lack of parenting. Or a lack of parental responsibility. I've volunteered in my sons' (public school) classrooms and some of the things I've seen/heard/read from parents is appalling. I recall one mother writing a scathing note to a teacher because her son received a poor grade on a report that she had written for him. And when the teacher cited that the report had to be hand-written (or typed, I can't recall) the mother stated that "the instructions didn't say so." So what'd she do? Raised his grade. She didn't want to and wasn't happy about it, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Teachers hands are tied in a lot of ways. And I have found that it's usually the kids with the worst behavior who have parents that complain the most (do we see a trend?). As if their child was in no way capable of misbehaving. PUH-leeze. I wish every parent could volunteer in a classroom for a week just to see what goes on and what teachers have to deal with.

Granted, there are bad teachers. But for the most part, I have to say that my boys have been very fortunate and had great public school teachers.

On a similar tangent, I am greatly disturbed that children can be suspended for having gum at school, yet are only verbally reprimanded when they use profanity. I witnessed this at my oldest son's middle school. A teacher HEARD a group of kids using profanity and the ONLY thing that was said was "Language, children..." I know I would've have my butt tacked to a wall had I been caught saying what they were saying--but not anymore. Yet we can put a kid in OCS for a day or half-day for chewing gum at school.

I think we've lost the fundamental ideas about educating children. We've gotten so caught up in stupid minutae that actual LEARNING has fallen to the wayside.

I agree Mom2RandD! There is a girl in my son's class (4th grade) who has been in his class the past 3 years and although she is the sweetest thing, she can barely read (I'm guessing low 1st grade level). I know this because I help in class and have had one on one time with her. She is supposed to be in 5th grade but was held back. IMO, she shouldn't be in the class. When I went to school, she wouldn't have been. She would have been in the special ed class. Now they do "pull outs" so a couple times a day she gets pulled out but honestly, she can't begin to keep up during the rest of the day and she gets frustrated (although with the rest of the kids).

Talk about silly punishment. When my DS was in kindergarten, a friend handed him a GI Joe "gun". It was smaller than my pinky. My son honestly had NO idea what it was. We had not allowed him to watch shows with guns, etc. If you asked him what a gun was he would say it's something that can hurt you but he couldn't point one out.

anyway, my DS put it in his pocket. It fell out in class and he got suspended for a day for *bringing a weapon to school*. Zero tolerance for bringing a gun to school. WHAT? I think that's a little extreme (and I told them so). So, if he draws a picture of a gun, is that bringing a gun to school? I kept him home the whole week because he was so upset. The principal told him he was lying when he said he didn't know what a gun was. That was it for me. We moved schools and are SO MUCH happier! I know a dozen or so other families who left as well (not because of this issue but other issues).

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

I would've flipped my lid.

It's stupid stuff like this that's bogging down the whole system, IMO. It's like no one can use common sense anymore and everything has to be wrong or right. You either follow the rules to the letter (no matter how inane some of them are) or you break the rules and get punished. DUMB.

I'm sure the world's a safer place today since your kindergartener spent a day in OCS for having a tiny plastic gun at school. Sheesh. Talk about misplaced priorities.

Sexysmurf
Please the next time you work with this child and her reading try having her sound out the letters as a beginning reader would before they started reading. She may not know how to sound out her letters and if she doesn't know the very basic sounds she will never learn to read. Please have her read the most basic book
because if she doesn't have the foundation she will never be able to read the more advanced books. How is her spelling and her hearing? She may not be hearing the letters correctly, How is her speech? Even though she is in the 5th grade she might have missed out on skills years ago. I wisk her and you good luck.

Icansavedaily,

I'm not in the class often enough to be her savior. I know she has some disability in learning. She acts more like she's 5 or 6. Not sure what's going on. When I do work with her, I have to work with the materials given to me which is what the class is working on. I can't bring a different book. I only work with her 15 minutes at a time. I did try sounding out the letters with her which she can do. She just can't put all the sounds together to form the word easily. She also can't write her name without a lot of effort (ie: it takes her about a minute to write her name). I feel for her

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Both my parents are teachers, and I always heard (especially at conference time) that usually the parents that show up for conferences weren't the ones who really needed to be there......They were involved with their children's education, and it showed. I stay in constant contact with my kids teachers and aides, and I think it makes all the diffrence in the world.

I do think part of the problems with schools is all teaching to the tests that they do......They spend months teaching to the standardized testing, and so much falls through the cracks.

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Nicole

There is a girl in class, same thing. She is reading on a very beginner level. Her mother has said she will work with her more at home. Today, when asked where her book is that she got from the library (to practice reading skills) she said it is STILL on the top shelf in her closet, and she can't reach it. She has told her Mother,but, she has not gotten it down, either. They are poor, which is where I tend to see more learning defecits, and less parental (or whoever they are living with) involvement. There is only so much that a teacher can do. There are more than just 4 kids in the class, and I guess parents don't understand???

My kids went to a school that had the gifted kids and the slower learners in the same room, with the intention that the gifted kids could somewhat mentor the slower kids. I said, um, my child is not the teacher, and why should they miss out or be held back because they are expected to help teach these other kids??? I didn't get it.


AMEN!!! The better part of the morning is spent on children who can't follow the rules/directions, come strolling in late.....one girl's mother said her DD was late that day because she was having her hair fixed. Each kid that comes in late disrupts class, and takes away from instruction. So many kids are in class unprepared...no pencils, paper, etc.

DS told me that if the kids are caught "dipping" they have to clean up the lunchroom hallway for 3 days. I was like HUH???? Underage tobacco use, and no parental notification AT ALL!!!

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I've heard the same spiel and thought the exact same thing. That's why I am completely baffled that someone can think mainstreaming is a good idea. Isn't it better to group similarly intelligent kids together so they can work at a pace they can all follow?! When you put a variety of kids together who all learn at a different pace, somebody's going to fall by the wayside, be it the faster or slower learners. This is NOT Utopia. And everyone is NOT the same.

Just this past week, my son's middle school implemented a new "punishment" where kids who are written up during the week have to stay after school on Friday (until 4:30) for Friday detention. I think it's a better idea than OCS because I bet 90% of the parents don't even know their child was in OCS!

(And I say that having a son who had to spend a half day in OCS because he didn't wear his belt to school--and I had no idea he'd done a turn in OCS until a week or so later when I got an "official" letter in the mail.)

But there's no way to skirt around telling mom or dad that you're being held after school on Fridays--after all, somebody has to come fetch your behind at 4:30!

My son is in the gifted program and they DO have to mentor the slower learners. The *theory* is that it helps the gifted children learn more because you learn more when you teach something rather than just listen. I don't like it one bit as my son shouldn't be doing the teachers job but he enjoys it (so I guess that is a good thing).

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

That's just like "pod" learning that's popular in some schools. You group four or five kids together who are on different levels and they work together and progress at the same rate.

Baloney.

My youngest gets so distressed when he has to do a group project in his class. Inevitably he's paired with someone who doesn't perform and ends up stressed out about it (and he's 11!). And is it fair to grade a group on everyone's participation (or lack of) when they have no control over what the other students do? Usually it comes down to someone not bringing something into class or not doing work outside of class that has to be done for the project to be completed.

Hmm...do we see a pattern here??

I got flamed here for saying the same thing Mom2RandD. A lot of people think group projects at elementary level are okay because it's a life lesson. As adults, we have to pick up the slack for others. I just don't think at an elementary age, our kids should be subject to that much stress.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

A life lesson in what?! That there will always be people out there who aren't accountable for their own actions? That's a great thing to teach kids.

(How many times can I use that smiley for this topic?!)

I am over touchy-feely schooling. I always think of a quote from Caddyshack: "The world needs ditch diggers, too."

LOL I needed that laugh

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Wow. I am a teacher and am floored at how some parents are so clueless! We do not seperate gifted/slower learners here. All classes are a good mix and I love it! The teacher teaches to the child, not the class. I teach Kindergarten. I have students reading on a 2nd grade level and I have a few that are not even on K level yet, but they all blend into my room and I teach them all to their own needs.

Parents that do not do homework with my students and do not check folders, come when asked, etc. are always the ones in my class that are way below level.......ALWAYS.

Oh, and we also have zero tolerance for weapons....real or toy. I agree with it.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

TOLERANCE!

I can't believe I'm the 1st one to address this 'question' of yours, either!


I can't even begin to say how disturbing I find your whole attitude about anyone you don't think 'belongs' in class with your children.



Back to the original topic - I think the people who are least on the hook for what's happening in education are parents. If I didn't have to teach tooth brushing, shoe-tying, sharing, basic kind communication skills, face-clock reading in my class, perhaps we could get to what's actually supposed to be accomplished in the 4th grade curriculum.

But with attitudes like those of parents who feel that "separate but equal" should be alive and well in their schools when it comes to intellectual ability levels, we have more work cut out for us in helping typical kids learn tolerance, patience and kindness, too...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Amen!! Thank you for everything as stated above.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

When my son was a high school sophomore there were kids in his class that stumbled when reading out loud-in high school!!!! He's a home school senior now.
My age will really show when I say go back to the good old days-be strict from k-12, teach reading, writing, spelling and math. Give the kids grades. Forget all the feel good about yourself crap they spend time on (in this school district anyway) and give them a solid foundation of the basics. Don't put up with misbehaving from day one. They don't even teach long division here anymore!!!

Please. I understand the basic principle that we are all created equal but we are NOT all the same. There are going to be leaders and followers, geniuses and idiots--it's human nature and a fact of life.

I never said children shouldn't be taught tolerance and I resent the implication. It has NOTHING to do with tolerance. And you think tolerance can only be taught in the classroom? Save the haughtiness for someone else because I assure you, I have had MANY discussions with my boys about tolerance.

I said it and will say it again--it's a disservice to ANY student to be placed with someone who doesn't learn at the same pace. Someone's going to fall behind, plain and simple.

So you believe it's okay for my child to fall behind because they're being pressed to learn at a faster rate and can't pick up the material being presented to everyone else in the class? Or it's okay for my child to be bored and expected to 'mentor' someone who can't learn as fast? When both of these situations could be ELIMINATED by separating classes?

If there's no benefit in that, why are some kids pulled for occupational therapy/speech/ESL/special education and some kids pulled for gifted programs? Why not lump them together, too?

Mainstreaming, IMO, is the worst thing to come into public schools. And I say this having sat through hours and hours of classes with my children.

I don't see how anyone can think it benefits a class to have opposite-ends-of-the-learning-spectrum abilities in ONE room. How does that even make sense? Would you throw a group of beginner swimmers in a pool with group of advanced swimmers and think "Oh, the good swimmers will help out the ones who can't swim as well." Probably not!

I think the original fault lay with the parents and now the children are also to blame. So many of these children seem to believe that they can do anything they want and I can understand why since their parents seem to agree with them.

In the past, if a child misbehaved at school, the child knew that he was going to get in terrible trouble at home. For most of them now, that's not the case. As a matter of fact, the parents are more likely to sue the school if they attempt any sort of punishment and the parents have a never ending litany of excuses for their children's misbehavior. Instead of making the child take responsibility and teaching him that the behavior won't be tolerated, they have a billion reasons why he isn't to blame for what he did.

I remember a thread on this very board about the subject and no matter what school disciplinary action was mentioned, someone vetoed it because they thought it was unfair to their little precious. Corporal punishment, suspension, in-school suspension, staying after school, extra work, etc, none of it was acceptable because someone felt that the schools should have no recourse and their child's 'civil rights' should take precedence over everything and everybody else.

Well, this is what happens when Little Precious is allowed to do and say whatever he wants. The schools become zoos and the teachers become handlers instead of the educators they intended to be.

I do not think that is what she was saying. It is the teachers job to help each child in his/her room, no matter how they learn. I do it and it can/should be done. There would be no way for my school to group the children by ability. It is my job to teach them that way. My students are not always doing the same work, but they are learning the same thing.It is called differentiated instruction.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

And that's why I send(t) my kids to private high school. Administration, teachers, kids, and parents are all on the same page. It's an expense that's very much worth it for us.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

In all honesty, every child and every situation is probably very different but I'd hesitate to place blame on any one factor. Even siblings within the same family but with the same teachers can achieve at very different levels...

I am very happy with my children's education. I only wish they had more recess.

This is true. I have seen siblings learn on different levels, but the ones that do not do homework etc. never do really well. As for "punishment" that word was banned from most of my education classes. I use only positive reward system in my class.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Question:

I realize that you teach Kindergarten, but if you taught a grade level that required homework, let's say 5th grade; How does your positive reward system work should a child fail to complete and turn in homework? Or if a child misbehaves or breaks a rule?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

We require homework in Kindergarten and I have taught older grades. I do not punish for academics....if they do not do homework, I talk to parents, but if a parent does not stay on it....there is nothing I can do. Very sad. The positive system if for behavior. BTW...With the older ones, there would be certain incentives for doing homework. No punishment, though.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Marilyn, I know groovygirl answered this above me but I just want to add that there is indeed homework in Kindergarten. Both my dds had a packet come home on Mondays that had to be turned in on Fridays. K is like first grade was when I was a kid (eons ago!).

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

What kind of homework do kindergarteners have?!

My kiddos aren't that far removed from Kindergarten! Of course, since Kindergarten isn't a required in our state (and is still half day most places) could be why I don't know about homework in Kindergarten.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

for my kids it was a packet of several pages mostly having to do with the letter and number they were focusing on that week. They had to write the letter several times, upper and lower case; my older dd had to find and cut out pictures of things that started with that letter; write/copy simple words that used that letter -- stuff like that.

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

It varies, based on what time of the year and what we are learning at the time. Kindergarten is the new 1st grade. They learn a lot! We have them writing sentences right now for homework with site words. They are also reading take-home books with parents, writing their address, doing phonics pages, etc. They write numbers and number words. All but one of my students are reading already. It is no longer for playing. Oh, and the few students I have that do not do homework.....I help them do it during center time.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Ditto!

At my school...hmm...2/3 of the students are ELs. Parents can't help their children because they don't speak English. Parents who are lacking in parenting skills, young parents, drugs, gang activity, and abuse. Students come to me with so many horrifying experiences. They come needing breakfast in the morning. I just had a student get glasses for the first time--she's only needed them for a year. Thanks to NCLB we are constantly testing our students. Our school dist. gave us pacing guides that have us testing all the time. Kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore.

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All we are and all we see is but a dream in a dream, All that you see or seem, is but a dream within a dream--Edgar Allan Poe

Wow - and in a classroom with varying levels of ability! You're the right kind of teacher for our times.



To MomtoRandD, I think the concept of 'tracking' students (when you group them by ability and have a 'smart' room, and an 'almost smart' class and an 'average' class and a 'sub-average' class, etc.) is cruel, and actually does a disservice to about 80% of the kids in a given grade. If the grade had 100 children, then at best, only 20% of a grade would be in that top class. Ask kids who grew up in the 70's-80's about this model, which was the trend back then. Kids knew how much/little teachers believed in them, and they performed to that standard. Kids knew where other kids were placed, and knew what it meant to be in the "dummy" class. The kids in the "average" class - care to venture a guess on how they fared in that class and beyond? Kids with learning problems often already had extreme behavioral problems, and the kids who were simply "slow learners" were thrown right in with them, sink-or-swim style. What a horrible situation that was. Only backward thinking would put us into such a model again.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Interesting thinking, devinmom. When do you think that the right time is to segregate kids according to ability? Certainly, it is done and should be done at the high school level.....and I can tell you that it is a very effective motivator for my HS freshman who has been trying his hardest this year to move up from the middle level courses to honors courses. And I admit that I had to accept the fact that this child of mine didn't land in the honors courses and AP courses that his older brother did....but it was the best placement for him and he is thriving and excelling....and moving up!

Further, I think you might be fooling yourself if you believe that children in a heterogeneous classroom don't know who is the "dummy", who is "average" and who is "smart". I'd say that they figure this out by about the third grade...perhaps even earlier. Given that, doesn't it make the most sense to get the most out of kids by appropriately challenging children by their ability - and doesn't it make the most sense to not have a teacher try to do that 3 or 4 different groups of kids in the same classroom? Well, that's my thinking anyways.....

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

What are site words? Do you really mean sight words, as in when they see something and then write the word?

dl

I have the esl class. half of my class, actually. They are the ones that do the homework and the non-english speaking parents find a way. They value education that much! We are in a low-income area and I see things you would not believe, but I still manage to teach them all.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Yes....site words or sight words.....words they place to memory and recoginize them on sight.....not by phonics.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

This is me. I liked our class/school model A LOT better than the one we have now. It worked SO much better. We got to learn at our level...not someone else's and we learned more because of it. I honestly think kids were learning more in the classroom when I was in elementary in the late 70's and 80's than they do now. No contest. Many of the teachers I know personally liked this model as well. I have never spoken to them about implementation of it today though.

I am not a "backwards thinker" as you so sweetly put it, just because I think this model is better than the current one. I (and I am sure others), resent comments like this. Can't you just say that you didn't like the model and you wouldn't want to see it implemented? Why do you have to put others who don't agree with you down? Can't you just agree to disagree? I'm sure many schools get by on the current model just fine and many love it. I don't but I don't say you are wrong for sticking up for it.

Maybe I'm just irritated because I haven't had my coffee but it just REALLY bothers me when on a post about education, we have to result to dumbing other posters down because they don't agree.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

SS,

I'm afraid you're misquoting me - I didn't "sweetly" call you a backwards thinker. I referred to any decision to go back to that "backwards thinking." That is not just my opinion, but the opinion of the vast majority of educators (but not all). Why can't I express as strong an opinion as you? And I did not name-call. That's not my style, and I don't usually find it to be yours, either.

I feel strongly about this topic, and I know you do, too. I've respected the differences between your thinking and mine, and our rights to 'agree to disagree.'

If you detected a tone in my post, it was directed at Mom2RandD - she made several extreme posts regarding her preference for going back to an out-dated model.

And ironically, the person trying to "dumb people down" (your words) is that same poster (above) who suggested that we need "ditch diggers" - you know - the post that made you LOL?

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Oh, man! I so remember being in school and hearing kids talk about the kids that were in the special ed class. It was horrible!! In my class....they "might" know who is not on level, but I do not have any problem with teasing, etc. They all know they are safe and loved and are taught from day one to never look down upon those that are different. I honestly do not think they even notice for the most part. Again, that is my job as a teacher. I always get compliments when being observed on how my kids all feel so safe and are not afraid to takes risks(try and answer questions, etc.)

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

"Only backward thinking would put us into such a model again. "
This is the comment I took protest too. If I had my way, we wouldn't be in today's model but something more like what I was in so yes, I took it as a name call as people like me who would change the model are backwards thinkers. I appreciate your clarification that it wasn't meant as a name call.

I laughed at the ditch diggers comment because it is something my grandpa always used to say and it made me laugh because I have never heard anyone else say it and therefore, it struck me as funny.

Truce

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

By high school, kids are selecting most of their courses (and even levels) themselves - they have decided whether they're college-bound (and thereby going to take the more rigorous, demanding classes), or other options that are less challenging, competitive, etc.

I agree here, too. But heterogeneous grouping isn't done to fool kids into believing that everyone is of equal ability. It sure does give all children the best chance at an equal education and an equal opportunity, if the class is taught/run well. Most education majors these days are trained to teach all children. They modify and make accommodations as necessary. If you ever get the chance to observe an inclusion classroom taught by a well-trained teacher, I think you'd be really impressed.

Another reason for heterogeneous classes right now is so that teachers can be held more accountable. When the 'best' kids were all together, their teacher didn't have to be anything amazing - he/she was going to look good, because standardized test scores were going to come in high - perhaps in spite of his/her teaching. Less advanced kids were likely to score lower (which meant that these teachers were less accountable - they could say, "Of course they scored poorly - I don't have the very brightest kids!") Schools have struggled to figure out how to evaluate good teachers. Well, if the classrooms are mirror images of each other (some very highly achieving kids, average achieving kids, and those who struggle), then teachers can be held to a more uniform measure of success when test results come out.

I know this is an extremely hot topic. I don't even think there is one perfect model. But I would hate to see us go back to tracking.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Truce.

SS, I've valued your "usually opposing opinion to mine" more times than you know!

And thank you for clarfying about your take on the ditch diggers comment.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Thanks for the complement. Right back at ya!

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

This is how it was when I went through school as well. Now, granted, we did mainstream most classes through middle school (I believe we were divided in math and reading/language classes mostly) but once we were in high school we had basic and advanced classes for almost every subject.

I will confess to being more than shocked when my son's fourth grade teacher told me that they would be mainstreamed in 6th grade. And I know several other parents (and teachers) who felt the same way.

How are kids motivated in a mainstream class? Wouldn't the goal be for everyone to be just "average"? No more, no less? What pace do you work at? And can you work at a pace where everyone receives the highest amount of learning they can get while in that class? Do you really think it's easier to teach a class with a wide variety of learning ability? How?

I fear that it's easier to let the "faster learners" slip to the wayside because the teacher is spending more individual time helping those students who learn a little slower. I've seen this! And if mainstreaming is such a great idea, why do teachers need aides to come in and do one on one with particular students to keep them on track?

And when I was in elementary and middle school we DID know who was "smart" and who was "not as smart". And please don't twist what I'm saying into some elitist thing because it's not. It's human nature to look at your peers and find where you fit in among them.

Granted, I don't advocate separating a kindergarten class because they're all on the same basic level. But I can tell you that when I was in 1st grade kids were pulled and sent to different reading groups/classes according to their abilities.

And I really dislike the notion that we have to teach our kids that they're all the "same". They're not! And this school of thought doesn't apply once you reach adulthood. How do you get a job? By being the best applicant, standing out among your peers. And once you're in the workplace is it your responsibility to pick up the slack for other people who don't or can't perform their job? I don't think so!

The more I think about it, the more adamant I feel about the need to divide students according to ability. It's like saying you could stick me on the US Olympic Swim Team and I would be able to compete on their level because we all practice together. It's just not gonna happen!

Devinmom -

Have you observed how demotivating and maddening it can be for a young child to see, but not necessarily understand, why some students in their heterogeneous classroom don't have to do the work or don't have to do it to the same standard or get a better grade for less work?

And for what its worth, I also took umbrage with the implication that I might be thinking backwards?

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I can tell you that Kindergarten students are NOT on the same level at all. How could they be? I totally enjoy having so many different learners in my class and I would be sad if I got only one level. My gifted students are not neglected. I challenge them every day just as do what I can to help the others. You can argue all you like....but I am doing it every day and it works!!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

That is a good point, cjs. I have seen situations where kids got all A's but were not remotely at grade level. They were given work AT their level and aced it, but an "A" on a 4th grade report card would *seem* to mean that one was doing a great job at 4th grade level work, and that wasn't the case at all.

There are pluses and minuses to both ways. I taught school in a multi-grade classroom for four years and one bonus of that scenario was that kids had to learn to be self-directed and independent. If someone was having trouble with their math homework, they had to ask a grade-mate or figure it out themselves because I was busy explaining the day's lesson to another grade's worth of kids. I just had 14 kids... but if you are dealing with three grades who are doing totally different work... well, it would have been easier to have 40 kids all in the same grade!

I remember my mom getting very frustrated when they were doing homogeneous grouping back in the 70's. My brother was not a stellar student at that time, and he was being paired with a student who was even less stellar a student than he was. There was a big push to work with a partner who was close in ability level. The theory was that they could help each other, and where there was a disparity of ability, the slower child would benefit from the interaction with someone a bit faster, and the faster child would learn empathy and also develop an even deeper understanding of the subject matter because explaining something to someone else can help solidify learning.

That wasn't happening for my brother. Neither he nor his partner were astute enough spellers (spelling was the subject I remember Mom getting most frustrated with!) to benefit from cooperative learning.

I like the way our local district does it in the upper elementary grades. There are four classes per grade level, and for the core subjects of math and reading they ability group. Each quarter, they test the kids on the material that is to be covered in the upcoming unit, and then divide the kids up based on where they are, with each teacher taking a group. A child may be in the 'fast' group one quarter and a 'middle' group the next. A child may be in the 'fast' math group but the 'slow' reading group.

For science, social studies, and spelling, they keep them in their own homeroom classes. They do a pre-test for spelling on the first day of the week, and if a child aces the pre-test, they then also do the 'bonus words' as part of their standard list for the week. Otherwise, they just do the usual 20 words.

I just don't see that as a fact.

Also, as far as holding teachers accountable, that's not really my problem, nor my concern.

And for what its worth, I personally am not talking about a model that I would call "tracking" at all. That seems to imply a permanent placement and an inability to move up or down from the "track"....furthermore, it's my belief that all kids have innate skills and strengths and so any one child would not be in a particular track across all subjects...

I think this is an emotional topic for those who have children with LDs and for those who have exceptionally bright children. I have neither.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I did say the same basic level.

I believe the gap widens as curriculum changes/children get older therefore the greater need to divide according to ability like I stated earlier--by dividing math and language classes in elementary and middle school and then moving on from there as they reach high school.

I know you did, and I am telling you that is not true at all. My students are always on very different levels, just as any other grade. Why would K be any different? It is not.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

That's probably true now more than ever before.

My kids, upon entering kindergarten, had peers who had not only been to three years of preschool and then "Kindergarten Redshirted" by their parents so they could be the best in sports later on, thus making them a full year older than the norm, to four-year-old kids who were barely making the cut-off date who had never been to preschool and whose parents were sending them because it was like having free daycare.

Just my opinion; "sight" words and that way of teaching actually inhibits learning. I think teaching phonics and phonetically actually encourages more learning in most children. I don't like rote learning. It's just memorization, without necessarily teaching the principle or teaching children how to think and reason.

Now, that's just my opinion, based on what I have observed with my children (5th grade and 3rd grade).

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

It's a concern for many. If teachers aren't held accountable, how can we know that they're doing their best, or even competent?




I remember Mrs. Martin in high school. They "gave" her the highest class, because they thought that was all she could handle. She was in the early stages of Alzheimer's Disease. I think that was a disservice to the highest achievers.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

What have I said that's so extreme?? Is it not true that the world requires a variety of people to perform a variety of jobs? Is what I said a fallacy?

Guess what? I didn't go to college--so where does that put me on my own scale? It's REALITY.

So what about the problem children--children raised by parents with a good dose of self-entitlement, or children who think they're above the rules, or children who constantly disrupt class and are abusive towards their classmates and/or teachers--should I feel badly when they quit school (of their own volition) and end up doing a poorly perceived job?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that "dumb kids are relegated to growing up and digging ditches."

And if you're teaching children with different learning abilities in your classroom with a myriad of different lessons, each catered to their ability, how is that not "labelling"?? In essence, you're dividing your classroom among learning ability, no different than what I've talked about earlier. Same thing!

I did not say that teachers shouldn't be held accountable, but I don't think that's a primary objective if it penalizes children in any way. It is up to the administration to find proper ways to do their teacher evaluations and development.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips