I just wondered if you'd heard about this and what your thoughts are:

Bloomberg.com: News

Lisa

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"It's not having what you want,
It's wanting what you've got"

It's the first step to nationalized healthcare. Guess we need 3 - 4 million new jobs to monitor the health records of 300 million citizens.

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I want to keep ALL of my paycheck and eliminate the pyramid scheme known as Social Security (there is no lockbox ). Do you want the same thing? www.fairtax.org

Personally?

I think that this "economic crisis" is just the thing Obama needed to be able to pass every single liberal social restructuring plan he could have dreamed of, all in the name of, "HURRY! DON'T READ IT! JUST PASS IT!!! THERE'S NO TIME TO WORRY ABOUT THE DETAILS!"

I heard a commentator saying that what this does isn't create jobs, but rather... well, they asserted ( and I see merit to their thinking!) that a tax cut DOES grow businesses because it impacts the business's bottom line in a forward-projecting way. If Jimmy's Drycleaning suddenly is paying out $1,000 less per month in payroll taxes, they can consider bringing in part time help. If you give them a one-shot credit of $5,000, they know that income isn't something that will be sustained, and they don't use that $5,000 in "free money" to hire a new person. They know it won't be there in six months to help pay that new person.

What this plan does is create a lot of government jobs. In his speech this week he talked about all the construction workers that would be hired to build new roads with this stimulus money. He talked about all the money that would be spent hiring people to convert medical records. By and large, those are GOVERNMENT jobs, and so as soon as the roads are built do we lay those people off? And once the medical records are transitioned, do we just let them go and have Dr.'s offices all take care of everything or do those data entry people stay on the government payroll forever?

I think there are so many huge, huge philosophical implications of this bill that we as a nation needed to think about before diving head first into a bill none of us have really read with details we can't fathom and changes that will forever impact what role government plays in the private sector. And with your health care link above - that stuff is as big a deal as the institution of social security, and yet it's buried and hidden and being rushed through while we're told we're un-American and don't care about the future of our nation if we don't sign on to it....

Whatever "it" is!

I think the healthcare rationing concept is very interesting.

The older you get the less likely you are to get procedures approved by the government.

But this country voted for, essentially, more government, so that is what it will get.

Will be interesting to watch, assuming you are not getting cataracts in your eyes and it is determined that you will not live long enough to warrent getting them removed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Raising my baby RIGHT!!!!!!

All the cool babies are wearing cloth!

Think it is wrong. I DO NOT want government involved in my healthcare any more than it has to be.

2 weeks ago at my kids school, they had a "healthcare team" come to screen 4th graders for cholesteral problems. They were taking blood and running tests on it. Uh, the school has NO BUSINESS doing that for my child. It's scary to think the school would hav access my child's DNA info via the records they received from the "team". I came to find out that I was the only parent who objected to the test. I did let him to do the eye exam and blood pressure but no to the blood work. I don't know why the government, whether it be local, city or national, thinks it's nose belongs in all of my business...

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Much like the falsehood that religious activities will be prohibited, this too has been misinterpreted by lay people who are unable to read a bill. There will be no attempt at rationing health care in any way, shape or form.

There is going to be a study to find out which treatments work and which ones do not. Makers of medical devices and drug companies are vehemently opposed to this bill. Some routine tests may or may not be effective. We do not really know. Drug companies have been very busy pushing what they call "off label" drugs. In other words, say a drug has been approved for use in mood disorders. Drug reps might also push the drug for use with Alzheimer's patients when there has never ever been any studies showing its efficacy.

Next phony charge?

Congressman Ron Paul - Stimulus for Who? - Texas Straight Talk

"To help Big Brother keep a better eye on us and our children, $20 billion would go towards health information technology, which would create a national system of electronic medical records without adequate privacy protection. These records would instead be subject to the misnamed federal “medical privacy” rule, which allows government and state-favored special interests to see medical records at will. An additional $250 million is allocated for states to nationalize individual student data, expanding Federal control of education and eroding privacy." (This was when the bill was in the House)

Rep. Ron Paul did read the entire bill. I do think he is capable of understanding the medical stuff with him being an obstetrician.

There are alot of red flags in the Senate verison of this bill. Thousands of Americans are speaking out against the stimulas bills. But as usual our government does not listen.
I know the bill will pass. Morally I think it is wrong to pass this on to our children/grandchildren.

we are so screwed.

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Melissa

I did not address the issue of maintaining electronic records. That is definitely in the bill. If Ron Paul is so very concerned about adequate privacy protection, why did he not introduce an amendment to correct the perceived flaw? He can either be part of the solution or remain part of the problem.

Keeping electronic records will save money by avoiding duplicate services. It will also make it harder for people to abuse prescription drugs by visiting several different doctors with the same complaint. I can understand why Rush opposes this provision.

You do know that Jim DeMint proved that he cannot read a bill the other day?

wowitsdark<---------laughs uproariously

I see the fear mongering GOP propaganda machine is alive and well. Some things never change…unfortunately. Someone states an opinion, it gets picked up by radio entertainers as news, then is broadcast by “reliable news” sources such as FOX, finally it gets spread by email, forums and such by loyal followers who know that America is going to hell in a hand basket…and it doesn’t matter if it is true or not. Who cares about fact anymore.


"Summary: During appearances on Lou Dobbs Tonight and Glenn Beck, Dobbs and Beck allowed Betsy McCaughey to advance the false claim that provisions in the economic recovery act would permit the government to control health care. In fact, the provisions she cited address establishing an electronic records system in part for the purpose of "reduc[ing] health care costs resulting from inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, duplicative care, and incomplete information." It does not say that the federal government will determine what constitutes "unnecessary care."
Media Matters - Dobbs, Beck allow McCaughey to advance health IT falsehood

“Fox News relied on a single Bloomberg editorial by Hudson Institute fellow Betsy McCaughey — which Megyn Kelly described as “a report” — to ascribe motives to provisions that are intended only to reduce health care costs and improve the quality of health care treatments.
The National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, for instance, which McCaughey and the Fox News described as a “new bureaucracy,” already exists.
Established by President George W. Bush in 2004, the Office “provides counsel to the Secretary of HHS and Departmental leadership for the development and nationwide implementation” of “health information technology.”
Wonk Room » Right Wing Launches Smear Campaign Against Popular Health Provisions

“The first part of McCaughey’s piece is designed to attack the provisions of H.R.1 (the stimulus bill) which allocates money to the building of a national, electronic health record system.
I understand that not everyone is a big fan of a national EHR system. While I believe that, on balance, it is a good idea that will greatly reduce deadly medical errors while permitting providers to share valuable clinical information, I can certainly appreciate how some might think that such a system presents opportunities to compromise our privacy rights.
However, blatantly distorting what is written in the Bill is not the way to go about making one’s point- unless the intention is to simply scare people into opposition.”
Health Crisis Connection » Blog Archive » Stimulus Bill Health Scare- Could Betsy McCaughey Be More Full Of…..Bad Information?

Alrighty... this is not from the GOP. It's from Obama's own website: Ethics | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team

And yet today... Congressman Gives Speech in Front of Pelosi's Office: 'There Are More Shady Deals Going on Behind Closed Doors'


Looks like Barry's people forgot to send Nancy's people the memo....

If a Republican says something it must be true? LOL

One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective.

That sentence alone scares the living crap out of me!!! If left to the Federal Gov't to determine what is appropriate and cost effective, we'll all be screwed, and I don't mean in a good way.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I see what you're saying. WOW, drawing blood at school??? NO WAY!!! I would have opted out of that one,too. I view these screenings at schools as something geared towards people who otherwise may not go to the eye doctor or family doctor. I never minded this so much, but , we were not offered a cholesterol screening for the kids.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

It would scare me too. if it was true. It's not.

Exactly my point the statement was meant to scare you. The "new bureaucracy" already exists. Health Information Technology. It's funny that it wasn't so scary when President Bush established it back in 2004

So these stimulus bill discussions have been completely open to the public?

Please show me proof of this.

If you can't, please call Barry's people so they can call Nancy's people. She really needs to know.

They are never completely open to the public. Seating is limited. CSpan covers all of the debates. You can go to their site and watch whenever it's convenient.

The stimulus bill was prepared by committee. And, yes, Republicans were members and had input.

I looked at the website in the link you provided. I did not see where the NCHIT was set up for the Fed. Gov't to determine what is appropriate and cost effective, as regards to our medical treatment. Can you point me in the direction of where this was the intent when it was originally set up? THAT is the part that scares me.... the Gov't making a determination of what they think I need as far as medical care goes??? OH NO NO NO!!!!

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Great political tactic. Are you a lawyer, perhaps?

Check Barry's site again please. He is the one who said - here, let me quote it again for you -

I'm sorry if I was not clear enough for you earlier. When I said "open to the public" I didn't necessarily mean that I thought John Q. should be able to waltz into any meeting. I don't think that is feasible. I do, however, think that Barry wanted all these discussions to be completely open for public scrutiny and not conducted in secret. And according to that quote, he especially considered it important where spending issues were concerned. Republicans, Democrats... Barry didn't specify. He just said that the meetings such as these should be conducted in public.

<sigh>

Looks like you're not interested in calling Barry's people about it. Guess I'll have to do it myself.

You would like me to disprove a false statement? LOL

Why don’t you show me where in the bill or any official document for that matter it states “the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective.”

Neato. I see that he can stockpile vaccines purchased with the money from the stimulus plan. That's really going to stimulate the economy a LOT!
<snicker>

That is quite the challenge being asked to disprove a false statement.

Like Bill Frist diagnosed Teri Schiavo, you mean?

ETA: As for the silliness about Obama's having input over how Congress--covered by c-span all the time- conducts business, I refer people to the Constitution and a little part about the separation of powers.

And, yes, I am a lawyer.

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Reading is Fundamental.

The more I dig, the more I find out..... as it should be. Apparently there is going to be a new bueacracy (sp?) in the form of: "Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research".

"But don't forget that everyone agrees that health spending is already too high. So the stimulus also devotes $1.1 billion to create a new bureaucracy called the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. A billion dollars isn't nearly enough to conduct the rigorous clinical studies needed to provide more information on what medical treatments result in the best outcomes. But Democrats want to get this "health-care Fed" on the books now so it's around when they pass the next entitlement expansion -- for the entire middle class.

When government finances start to buckle under that subsidy, the comparative effectiveness outfit will start to ration care to control costs, much like the United Kingdom's National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE). The draft report accompanying the House portion of the bill notes that procedures and drugs "that are found to be less effective and in some cases, more expensive, will no longer be prescribed."

In sum, what we are really getting in this stimulus bill are several more steps in the gradual government takeover of the health-care market."

No, that is not from the "official bill" but, I'm still digging.

Wanted to add this link for further investigation:
http://olpa.od.nih.gov/

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well, yeah. Right.

So why on earth did Obama think he had any power over what congress did with their secret little meetings?

Shouldn't he have known not to even suggest he had the power to do that when clearly, he does not?

But again... letting Nancy know his intentions would be a good thing. Either she can go along with him like a good little liberal OR she can call him on that whole separation of powers thing.

The final bill is not yet here. A compromise was necessary between the House and Senate. It has yet to be voted on.

There will not be any rationing of health care. It's all a bunch of hot air coming from the right. Whether they are just being obtuse or just trying to stir up the base over convoluted nonsense may never be known.

I need someone to tell me how tax cuts help the person with no paycheck.

I am already getting pretty dern good at bending over. Yet again?

dl

Well, I'll be !! Someone else who can think for themselves and also let others know they can think for themselves. I know you don't need it, but I commend you. It's not always best to stay with the flock. And, sadly, I would bet that "they" are talking about "you".

More people should think clearly and effectively.

dl

Did you read my explanation earlier in the thread?

We are not a Democracy and do not work that way. We elect representatives to carry out the business of the state and to conduct business on our behalf.

There is no secrecy as to what is in the bill nor is there any secrecy involved in the process. There is a great deal of discussion as to what is in the bill. How can you, or any other Republican, maintain that any secrecy is involved?

So far, the only thing the Republicans have had to say is "blah, blah, tax cuts."

Nope, not a lawyer.

So... you are saying Nancy didn't keep the door shut?

Do you know what Chicago's mayor has on his "wish list" of things he wants money for? No? Then you aren't alone. He doesn't want it known. He just wants a chunk of money and will show his plan after the money is approved... and that's good enough for Nancy.

Let me just say that I think the next four years are going to be far more entertaining than even I imagined!

We need to teach our kids more civics, then perhaps we'd have better informed voters & citizens.

I am appalled by how many folks I know think the president has as much, if not not more, power as Congress.

MZ

>>>There is no secrecy as to what is in the bill nor is there any secrecy involved in the process. There is a great deal of discussion as to what is in the bill.<<<


But it is very difficult to understand what is in any bill, let alone find the time to read through the plethora of rhetoric in *any* bill.
For John Q. Citizen, this is a major prob, IMNSHO. We, as ordinary citizens, don't seem to understand well enough how our republic ( as opposed to a democracy) is run.
I sure have probs with it, and I *used* to think I was an educated person. The more I learn, the more I know how much I *don't* know when it comes to to our government and politics in general.

MZ

Like I said in another thread, it's the size of a phonebook. You can read it if you want to.

There's that "change the topic just enough so it sounds like we're talking about the same thing" tactic again.

Chicago's mayor does not, in fact, have anything listed in the phone book sized bill. Reading it would do me no good. He wants it to be secret until AFTER he is awarded government money.

Well, I guess that we'll just have to wait and see. I saw a list of proposed projects last week. I didn't check out Chicago because I don't live there.

It's one of those things that I couldn't find my way back to. But, it's out there somewhere.

>>>Like I said in another thread, it's the size of a phonebook. You can read it if you want
to. <<<

>>>I didn't check out Chicago because I don't live there.
It's one of those things that I couldn't find my way back to. But, it's out there somewhere. <<<

And partisanship aside, this is where I have probs.I think a lot of citizens *would* want to read it. But stuff that might pertain to us, either on a state, federal, or personal level, and the language that can get so bogged down with crud makes it hard to understand and find time to comb through. Yet again - we need to teach our kids civics better so this sorta stuff will be an automatic thing they devote time and energy and brain cells to, IMNSHO

I do respect all points of views, even if I don't agree with them. There are some things nobody will ever be able to change my mind about, but I have appreciated the way you and wowitsdark have gone about your disagreements. So many times in the past I have abandoned reading stuff on the TC boards cuz of the name calling and such. I may be wrong about this (I don't catch everything), but it seems you two have passionately asserted your positions without that sorta dreck. And I have, ahem ;-) enjoyed your disagreements.
Like I said in some other post, lately I've had more time than I normally woulda had to read this board ;-)
MZ

Teaching civics again would be a good idea. It would be wonderful if people would just look at the bills themselves.

>>>It would be wonderful if people would just look at the bills themselves. <<<

Yes, it would!
How many of us know how to do that, how many of our kids know how to do that?
How many bills are *the size of phone books* that would allow everyday citizens to do it?

MZ

LOL, isn't that the truth.

The other week some moron kid, just out of college, wrote a letter to the editor whining about how he can't afford healthcare (I am sure he can afford cable, internet, cell, dvr, blackberry, etc etc) and we should have a natl healthcare plan "like Europe."

I am sure our socialized education system did such a great job educating him that he knows once you make appox 50k in places like Germany and England your tax rates goes to about 45%.

Where the hell are these people living? Utopia? Some place where money falls from the sky?

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Raising my baby RIGHT!!!!!!

All the cool babies are wearing cloth!

Does anyone besides moi-self remember how difficult it was at one time, not too long ago, to afford having a phone? Especially paying for ldx calls?

Recently I had a conversation w/ a young woman in her early 20's who was dumbfounded at the the idea that once upon a time we had to pay for long distance calls by the minute. Made me feel old and also made me realize how uneducated today's youths are about finances.

I recall in the late 70's and early 80's times when dh and I couldn't afford a phone, and this wasn't at all an unusual thing.

I realize that now, in the times of instant access, not having a cell phone or cable access is considered outrageous and unbelievable to our youth.

MZ

In Europe, a lot less money is spent on healthcare per individual than we spend here. And, they live longer.

Poor kid is probably tired of living in a country where he must wait for money to trickle down on him from the very rich.

>>>In Europe, a lot less money is spent on healthcare per individual than we spend here. And, they live longer.<<<

Which countries in Europe?

MZ

HOLY COW, I would have had to tell him to join the military. He'll get a nice taste of a national health care plan. People that haven't lived it, just don't understand it.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I remember when my Mom had to pay rent on the phone itself. You didn't just walk into a store and buy them off the shelf. Not to mention, um, it was dial, no push button service

Thankfully, my kids are "getting it" in regards to finance. My DD insists on bringing her $5 every time we leave the house "in case we need to stop at Subway for a five dollar foot long" she says......LOL.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

>>>People that haven't lived it, just don't understand it. <<<

Ya know, ain't it the truth.

I have been mortified about things I've said in the past and opinions I've held in the past till I had the opportunity to grow older and experience things folks told me about when I was younger :-)

MZ

And of course you had to go through the operator to place your long distance calls....

Ah, perfect Europe, the land where people live forever and nothing is ever, ever, ever wrong. Our silly forefathers - if it wasn't for them, we'd all be living over there instead of here and wouldn't have any problems!

Um, has anyone ever seen the teeth on many in Europe??? YIKES!!! What's up with that??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.