I thought it was interesting that someone said teaching memory skills was not a good move. We have to teach both memory and proccessing skills. While my students learn to read mostly by teaching phonics blending, they do have to memorize site words(how it is spelled for us). The reason is that children need to learn that skill. It is important to be able to develop the memory. In older grades, they will have to be able to memorize multiplication tables.....they just have to learn this. Memory exercise is VITAL to the whole learning process.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Groovy, is the "site" spelling perhaps a local one that your district has coined? When I was an ed major, we learned the Dolch list of "Sight Words" - 'sight' meaning 'when you see something', as opposed to 'site', which would refer to a designated place. I just now ran a web search for 'site words' and it asked me 'Did you mean to search for "sight words"?' and it gave me a slew of results, all of them having it spelled "sight".

Way back when I was taking teacher ed classes, the premise was that that list of 220 words is the list of words that students simply need to *know*. We did teach them, initially, by sounding them out. They tend to be words that are relatively easy, such as 'big', however those words do employ some graphemes that don't come into play until 1st or 2nd grade, such as "ight". In K, we didn't spend a lot of time trying to teach the fact that "ight" sounds like long i + t. We just needed them to know how "might" was pronounced when they saw it so that as they learned to read, stories would flow because they wouldn't be stumbling over all those high frequency words.

They did learn the alphabet a letter at a time, and learned the sight words that began with those consonants as they went through the alphabet. That way, they could at least learn some cursory understanding of initial consonant and vowel sounds.

I am not in favor of a whole language approach, but there are merits to having a set of flash cards and just working through those sight words over and over until a child can say them. IMHO, the other gazillion words in our language are perfect fodder for the teaching of phonics... and phonics should be the primary means of teaching reading.

IMHO, of course.

Yes, it might be local that it was picked up for teacers here as site, but google will show site words as an option, so maybe it is not just here. Either way...the point is, children need to learn to build their memory.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I'm sorry I wasn't clear: I failed to state that I was speaking specifically to reading and spelling.

I understand the need for rote learning in some areas like math, science or even social studies/history. I just disagree that it's the best method for teaching language arts.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

No, I understand what you say and I agree. We teach reading through phonics. The words we learn by sight are just a way to prepare them for when they have to learn to put things to memory. It is not just to teach reading, but to start to develop that skill.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I understand that something like 87% of the English language can be decoded phonetically.

However, phonetic analysis can't be used to instruct on the more irregular spellings. For example, the pronunciation of the letters 'one' are pronounced differently in the word 'ONE' than they are in the word 'BONE,' and differently still in the word 'DONE.'

Hence, to teach reading/language arts optimally, a teacher needs to teach sight words (through memorization, as 'on sight'), as well as use other methods of instruction to teach decoding for words that are irregular (the 13% or so of the language).

HTH

eta: It was bugging me that I knew there was a third word that is in this misfit set. It's 'done!' LOL.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Exactly!! Nothing should really be taught one way, anyway. I have various learner types in my class....visual, kinetic, etc.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

My kids learned to read with combination of both sight words and phonics. The started with sight words. They would memorize certain easy/common words and then while we would read they would pick out the words they knew. From there we began to sound out the sight words they already knew as we went through the alphabet learning each sound. As they began to understand the letter sounds and how they went together, they began sounding out more complex words.

Memory was still pretty important because a lot of words don't "sound" how they look.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

I raised the question of site vs. sight in the earlier thread. I still don't see a clear answer, wowitsdark, in this thread, gave the differing definitions.

How can we teach site words when it's really sight???? As in to be seen? I know people mistakenly interchange the two, I just wanted a clear understanding of what it is - in today's education.

dl

You are picking at the wrong thing. That is just what we call them, as teachers at my school. They are still the same thing. Words that kids memorize.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I am not picking at anything. With that line of thinking, then it doesn't matter if phonics is spelled fonics? teachers spelled teechers? If it's a program or a method of (sight / site)teaching, then which is it?

dl

You are picking and not looking at the real issue. We call them site words, or sight words. The real issue is why we teach them and that our kids are thriving. I have never seen the word "fonics" so I don't know if it is okay or not. I can say this...in kindergarten, we do not pick at spelling. I had a child write "Ilisntomytejre" I was thrilled! It was "I listen to my teacher. She had her sounds...the rest comes later.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Ok, anyone else?

dl

Our words are called High Frequency Words. Was "site" coined by the publishers?

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All we are and all we see is but a dream in a dream, All that you see or seem, is but a dream within a dream--Edgar Allan Poe

yes, we sometimes call them high frequency.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

We called them Dolch words, too...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

If you are using the list that is considered the standard, it's the "Dolch Sight Word List".

My perception is that "site" is essentially slang for "sight". I just looked up "site" and there are eight definitions for that word, each of them being a variation of a definition noting a *place*. None of them refer to *vision*, and so I do think "site" is being improperly used. "Sight" never refers to a *place*; it only refers to something you *see*.

Site and sight are phonemes, but that is where their similarities end. Hopefully, OP's students just *hear* it pronounced and don't *read* it spelled "site", because later on in life they could get confused. If they are in a spelling bee and this is their word and they ask for a definition, they are up a creek.

Exactly and thank you. We have a teacher(s?) implementing a program that she herself can't even spell and then using avoidance when others simply ask for a clearer understanding. New is not always better than tried and true.

dl

I am not a reading teacher, so I'm just going by what I've always thought. I thought the purpose of teaching sight words was because these are words that are not easily sounded out (words that don't follow the rules).

I never imagined it was to teach memory for other subjects although I'm sure that is a byproduct of working the memory.

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Jackie

Music is what feelings sound like._ ~Author Unknown

Teachers can and do make errors in spelling and grammar. You aren't thinking that teachers are supposed to be perfect, are you? They are human, just like you and me.

What a silly thing to get your undies in a bundle over.

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Jackie

Music is what feelings sound like._ ~Author Unknown

Sight words are high frequency words. They are usually somewhat meaningless connecting words (ie. a, an, the, but, for, is, was, were, am... etc) that will help the child to learn to read more fluently. Maybe they help the child exercise their memory skills as well -- good point!

Groovygirl, you sound like you love teaching. Your students are blessed to have you as their teacher.

Get over it lady! That is what we call them and I did not spell it wrong. We actually have odd names for many things, but that does not makes us bad teachers. My students ate thriving and test scores prove it. I have never seen anyone so dead set on causing trouble.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Thank you! I do love it more than words can say. It is all I ever wanted to do (well, the rock star thing didn't work out). It never feels like a job, except when paper work comes around. I love these children with a passion. THAT is what makes a good teacher.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Thanks. This is also true. We are not perfect, and we never expect our students to be! If I asked my kids to spell sight or site.....I promise it would be "syt" and I would be very happy with that!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

"Sight Words" are words we see frequently. Dolch identified the 220 most commonly used words. The issue isn't using those words as a memory-enhancing tool. It's that as we, as adults, read, we never sound out those words. I just recognize them as quickly as I recognize a red octagonal sign as saying "STOP" and a yellow triangle saying "YIELD". The plan when teaching sight words is to get the kids to the point that upon seeing "the"... they know what it is without having to think through the sounds "th" + "ee".

ETA: One thing I do think, as someone who taught upper-elementary and middle school children, is that when from an early age any spelling is deemed acceptable and when accuracy isn't modeled, a hurdle is created that a child must later overcome. All those homophones... the, thee, there, their, they're, etc., are difficult for kids to master, and if from an early age teachers are encouraging and enthusiastic *and* can also model and demonstrate the proper usage when it comes to spelling, the child will benefit. When they are little, it's expected that they will spell based on the phonics they know, and those mis-spellings are an opportunity to say, "Hey, Johnny, great job - I understand what you have written! Now, let me show you a little secret. See where you wrote 'kat'? The letter 'c' also makes the hard K sound, and in this particular word, the right way to spell it is C-A-T. Can I get you to erase that "k" and swap it for a "c" so your wonderful story will be absolutely perfect?"

It really does benefit kids in the long run if the adults they view as the 'experts' correctly model the academic feats the children will be expected to conquer. IMHO, of course.

When my daughter started first grade, they tested her on sight words. Her teacher told me she knew her sight words through 4th grade. When I looked for Dolch sight words, I only see lists through 3rd grade. So, at what grade level is this Dolch list completed? If my daughter has mastered this list (and I suspect she has), what should I start teaching her next? She loves learning and is bored with school because she knows what they are learning there. They do extra things with the "Green Group" because of their advancement, but Aliyah isn't challenged with it. There is no "Gifted Group". I do not want her to lose interest in school. So, tips would be appreciated.

Dianne

I don't know the answer to how high Dolch goes?

I do want to address your other question...

Personally, I'd stop pre-teaching her school type curriculum and go more along the route of taking her to visit museums, getting her involved in volunteer work, helping her develop hobbies etc. to make her more well-rounded in life. It is a *given* that she will get the school stuff at school... You can broaden her horizons elsewhere. I give this advice based on my own childhood and how I was raised so I could be completely off target, LOL.

I have taught school for many years (yada yada). It is very interesting because around 3rd/4th grade, many of the kids start to level off academically.

Her kids are learning fluency and language skills at this point...

I always allow the children to use creative spelling when I am having them write for fluency (Kindergarten). In First Grade, many teachers have the students make their own Spelling Dictionaries and focus more on proper spelling...

Personally, I do not believe that K-level teacher is going to mess up his/her students by allowing them to spell phonetically.

Well, if you want to get technical, site and sight are homophones, not phonemes. I am currently taking a phonics course for my ed. certificate and we were told the reason the Dolch and Fry words are memorized is because they make up about 50 percent of the words in any written text. Knowing them on sight makes the text "flow" easily as the reader only has to figure out about half of the words. It aids in overall reading comprehension. A student who has to sound out every single word in a text may get all of the words right but will most likely lose something in the comprehension of what he or she is reading. It's kind of like how you're getting so hung up on the proper spelling of site vs. sight that you're totally missing the whole point of Groovygirl's post.

As far as the importance of teachers modeling the proper academic skills, you are right, they should try their best to do that. However, teachers are human and make mistakes, too. IMO, There is value in showing students that making mistakes is ok. How you choose to respond to those mistakes is what makes a person successful or not.

Thank you. They are not messed up at all. My students all do very well after they leave my class.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Actually, this relates to something I said in the other post about this subject. When I got my degree (and then subsequently taught school - I graduated from college in '88) the term 'phoneme' was what they used instead of 'homophone.' During the years I taught school, we switched our language arts curriculum from HBJ to Houghton-Mifflin, and their terms for identical concepts were not uniform. I grew up calling them homophones, and I never cared for 'phoneme' as a term to describe words that sound the same. It seemed better suited to different groups of letters that had the same sound (such as ite and ight), where a grapheme would be a single spelling with multiple pronunciations.

I'm really *not* missing groovygirl's point. Kids *do* begin by spelling phonetically, and as they begin to put the connections together between sounds and letters and are making stabs at writing themselves, it's awesome. And there are a number of valid reasons to not check their work for spelling at that point, because the ability to let their ideas flow is a skill they are going to need for the rest of their academic careers. If they spend too much time agonizing over spelling when they are at that critical juncture, the creative side of them can get extremely frustrated and may just shut down.

I do realize that teachers are human and make mistakes, so please don't make it sound like I'm being critical of a *mistake*. This is a situation where they have given a label to something using a word that is incorrectly spelled, and are doing so for kids who by and large cannot spell themselves yet. It wouldn't be a great idea to put a sign on the door with a list of "Thee Class". It wouldn't be a great idea to put a list of recess games on the board and include "For Square". It wouldn't be a great idea to put a chart on the wall that said, "You're Jobs". When the *kids* spell things like that as attempts, that's to be expected, and their efforts applauded. But I do believe that the job of the *teacher* is to do things the correct way.

Is it going to cause a child who would have otherwise gotten a 32 on his ACT one day to end up with a 12? Not at all. But I guess I just don't see why you *wouldn't* want to use the correct spelling.

My opinions about a lot of these things have changed over the years. The methods I learned in college weren't always methods that ended up working. When I got my degree, whole language was pushed and phonics were really dismissed. When I was actually in the classroom, and trying to teach a room full of kids who had come through a whole language curriculum, I was astounded at the gaps in their understanding. Now I'm on the opposite end of that as a parent, and my opinions have morphed yet again. My oldest had a different spelling and phonics program than my younger two have had, and the differences in what they comprehend are marked.

If it sounds like I'm being critical of groovygirl, personally, that's not my intent at all. It's just my opinion that it would be better to spell things the correct way, as both a parent and a former teacher.

I don't know how to make it more clear.....it is a word the SYSTEM uses....NOT the kids. I already said, my kids would probably spell it "syt". We have names for a lot of things that we do not use with the kids. Would it ruin them even if we did.....no. We don't anyway, so you can worry about something else now!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

One last thing about this topic. I was going to post it in the other thread but it is now locked.

When I worked with K students, we had a big sign with everyone's home phone numbers on it. The students were supposed to memorize their numbers.

Just out of curiosity, groovy, would it be a big deal to you if today, in 2009, the title of that chart read "Sell Phone Numbers"?

Would it inspire a lot of confidence in you if your principal had created the sign, and when you asked him, "Uh, shouldn't that be 'cell'?", he said, "That's just what we CALL that list. It's like a nonsense word. It doesn't MEAN anything - get over yourself"?

Ugh....you never stop!!! It is not the same, because our kids do not see "site words" only us. All words we give them are spelled as they should be. The nonsense words we have them create are to help them learn a skill and not for spelling. It is on the state test they have to take several time per year, so we have to teach it. I am sure you can find more important issues to worry yourself over.....if not, you are lucky. PLEASE let this go.I do not want to keep going through this with you. My kids at school are safe in my hands, just not always at the hands of their parents. I assure you, they are all learning and happy in my room.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Okay.

I really was just trying to *get* this. When I received my bachelors in education and when I took grad-level ed courses, it was drilled into our heads that we were to model 'correct', regardless of the ability of the children. From penmanship to pronunciations, that was the expectation for *us*.

So, you never heard of using nonsense words in K? Google it. It is used on the DIBELS test. Oh, and I always model correct, but I don't sweat spelling in K, only phonics.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

You assert the children are safe in your classroom, yet not always with their parents. Certainly, they are not safe riding in your car while you talk on your sell phone!

dl

oh, and you again.....I don't drive my students around, but if I did, they would be safe, just as the 3 I raised were. Do you really have nothing else to worry about?

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Yes, I know perfectly about nonsense words.

The reason I picked up on the site/sight thing is that "site" is not a nonsense word. It's a real word, and the students I had - primarily 3rd - 5th grade - did struggle when it came to identifying when to correctly use their vs. there vs. they're, etc. They are soaking up what they see, and the irony of this situation, IMHO, is that the system is using this incorrect word to label something students are expected to learn strictly *by* appearance and not at all by phonics.

To me, a nonsense word is a word that is not truly a word, and therefore has no actual definition. Perhaps I am incorrect.

But I keep telling you that the kids do not see the word "site". They only see the words on the list that they have to learn.....so where is the harm? My degree is in early childhood and I am well trained for K.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

OP makes me look and feel downright reasonable and complacent!
I knew there had to be someone out there who could appear even more opinionated and argumentative than me!
Thanks OP!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I have never picked anyone apart and tried to make them see my way, as you always do. That is the difference.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

You really, really don't get this and a few other things. I am not worrying about anything. I'm starting to wonder, but certainly not worrying. The more you assert your selfish, chest thumping, patting on the back garbage, the more obvious it is how you are. Best driver, best teacher - doubtful, but you keep it up.

dl

No, no...you just bring a poster's children into an argument. HUGE difference--I see, I see.

And no, you don't try to get anyone to see things your way....hence why you kept responding in the cell phone thread?? No, you didn't try to convince anyone of anything---you just told those who didn't agree with you that they were wrong and to basically shut the hell up.
Yeah, I can see that you are MUCH "nicer" than I....
What-evah!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

No, never best....but not the horrible one you try and make me to be. It is just mean!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I NEVER tried to get anyone to talk and drive. I just defended my right to do so and will not back down on that. I can pull up MANY posts where you picked at people to no end.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

ehhhh....it's either this, or pay attention to Professional Wrestling. I choose this!


And groovygirl--you are playing a game of semantics. And since you obviously have put forth the time and effort to read my "numerous" posts, you should know that while I do question people when they state something I don't understand or agree with, I don't assert that my rights trump their rights. You should also realize that playing a game of semantics with me will be an exercise in frustration for YOU. Posting on this board is simply something I do (most times) to pass the time...right now I'm not interested in what's on TV, and I'm waiting for the novocaine to wear off (had my first cavity filled today! Can you believe almost 39 y/o and this is my first ever cavity? )

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I beg to differ. I was reading the ridiculous lawsuit thread and you were the same monster there that you always are.....I can paste here if you need a memory boost. Maybe the dental med.s messed with your memory? Oh, and you frustration threat does not scare me.....lol

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

What-evah!
Whatever floats your boat, peels your banana, blows your skirt up, pops your top....basically whatever you feel you need to do to show your superiority over me. You obvisiously have the time, energy and inclination to go and look for old posts. You obviously harbor quite the grudge, if something I posted(how long ago was it?) has stuck in your self-righteous craw...
You obviously have a bone to pick with me--have at it. There is nothing you can say to me, no name you can call me that I haven't heard on this board (both in the general postings as well as a couple of nastygrams in PM). You aren't that good--you don't intimidate me by "threats" of bringing up old posts that ANYONE can find and read. You're sense of self-importance doesn't impress me.
So, you knock your silly self out, if you want to bring up past posts--you obviously have an agenda, stick with it!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Ummmm, you are the one that said you were not as bad as me....I just made sure to prove you wrong!!!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

okey-dokey artichokey! You sure proved something....not 100% what, but, that's ok! You keep thinking those postive thoughts! You're good enough, you're nice enough, and gosh darn-it: People like you!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Actually they so and I sure don't need you to tell me that, but thanks anyway.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

what?
Could you please complete a thought/sentence? I'm trying to follow you, but you're making it hard when you post incomplete thoughts/sentences.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

It is a compete sentence, I just hit s instead of do....human mistake there, Miss perfect. I guess you do not even recognize a complete sentence when you see one. I am not surprised, though!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

alrighty then. I can see now where it could have been a typgraphical error. However, I did not want to assume or presume anything. I apologize for my crude request for clarification.

Thanks so much for supplying my entertainment for the day. It was a rough day, I needed a bit of brevity to relax.

With that, I bid you a good night. You should really consider chilling out. You seem a bit tense and uptight. Maybe the hard work of being the saviour of kindergarten students is beginning to wear on you.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I am no more uptight than my company! My job is the most stress free job I have ever had. I have to remind myself that it actually is a job. I love every second of it and can't believe they pay people to do something so wonderful!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon