How is it that we are losing the responsibility of clear, concise communication, spelling, and grammar?

Currently we have a teacher who is practicing avoidance tactics over her incorrect application of the words site/sight. She just can't say "Sorry, I made a mistake". Other examples abused on a constant basis are: they're/their/there, the inappropriate use of contractions, and 's.

I am not talking about an occasional typo. Hasent and wasent aren't words for crying out loud!!!! Walmart is not Walmarts nor Walmart's as in simply the name of the store. Capitalization of the first letter of the word isn't random, it's at the beginning of the sentence and for proper nouns. The list goes on.

I have job applicants that obviously don't even know their address. When I send the person a letter thanking them for interviewing and to let them know the job is filled, many are returned by the USPS due to an improper address. It was the address the applicant provided!

Is there no pride? Is the dumbing down of America already here? Is the school system failing? Too often, I see the things I've mentioned and there are other issues as well.

dl

OMG!!! You are nuts!!! It is not a mistake! It s what our list is called. I just can't believe you are still at this. I can find SO MANY posts of yours where you used horrible punctuation, but I have not done it because it is silly, just like this rampage you are on about something so meaningless. You are not near as perfect as you think you are!! lol When I first started teaching, I looked at the list and thought it was odd, but I let it go and worried about the important things......like caring for my students!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I have yet to call you a name.

You can certainly copy/paste as you see fit.

This is priceless. A teacher who finds basic skills meaningless. I will take that as an answer to is the school system failing? Answer: yes

While you sift through my posts, I am quite sure you won't find me mentioning that you do not care for your students. I think you are over zealous in that assertation and that clouds some of your thinking. I said some of your thinking, not all of it.

dl

Yes, America does seem to "dumbing down". I think part of it is because slang and texting/IM "speak" being acceptable in everyday use.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

What are you talking about? I have said MANY times that the kids do not use this word, or see it used this way. I have no idea why my system uses it, but it is harming nothing! You can't be as slow as you seem to be.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

assertation definition | Dictionary.com

I'm not buying that.

I think you removed it because you realized you were wrong, and did not want that post to remain as evidence.

Your post about the comma and the word random has not been deleted. That post is also picking at a mistake.

Ok, I am lost. Are you talking about the lack of an apostrophe (hope I spelled that correctly) regarding the word peoples/people's ?

dl

************************************************** ****************

edited: Now I think I am back on track, it's the old method of removing all traces of evidence by deleting a post, right?

wowitsdark, do you have any insight whether personally or as an educator to offer regarding my concerns with communication skills? You write very well and with a wonderful sense of thought process. I started this thread because some of these issues have been bothering me for a while, and recently become obvious here.

(off to bed)

dl

dl

ded, a comment was made about the need for a comma after the word 'random' in one of your above posts.

A comment was made later about your use of the word assertation.

I posted a link to the dictionary definition of the word assertation.

Soon after, the post saying you wrongly used that word disappeared, and it was stated that it was removed because the poster does not like to pick at people.

However, another post picking at your post remained, so to me, that explanation did not hold true. Why not delete both 'picking' posts? Why just the one about the definition that was ultimately proven to be an incorrect 'pick'?

After I pointed out that the other picking post had not been removed, it, too, eventually disappeared.

I removed the one about another error, too. Maybe your perfect butt missed that!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

The point is, even someone that has the nerve to start a thread about others mistakes(why would you do that?) makes MANY of her own. Oh, and it did not eventually vanish....it just took a few for me to delete it.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Actually, some type of punctuation was required after the word random. The comma was used correctly; however, a semicolon would have made the sentence easier to read. Personally, I would have preferred two separate sentences.

If you would like additional information on punctuation and grammar, there are many websites that provide basic punctuation understanding.

Yes, something was needed, but the comma was an error. I do not need any help with that, but someone here does. I hope she reads up.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

The comma was used quite correctly. That sentence had a number of options. None of which included no comma.

I do not believe the comma is problematic.

I would have chosen to insert the word 'however', but I don't believe it to be necessary.

Example: He ain't heavy, he's my brother.

NOT FAIR !!!

You have decided I am nuts, Marilyn is a monster, and yet she gets to have a perfect butt?

NOT FAIR!!! I want a perfect butt !!! Even if I am nuts, a perfect butt would fit nicely!!!!

NOT FAIR!!!

dl

Nope. The comma did not go there. I really would have never said anything to a not so perfect person.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I am the one who has been accused of having a perfect butt.

Unfortunately, nobody in my real life has ever made that accusation.

Thanks so much for the entertainment tonight, ladies.
It has been a laugh riot.

Exactly. When the introductory element is short, one comma can suffice. But, your sentence was complex. The comma was used correctly, but I might have punctuated differently.

Possible variations of "Capitalization of the first letter of the word isn't random, it's at the beginning of the sentence and for proper nouns." (Which is perfectly acceptable.)

1) Capitalization of the first letter of the word isn't random. Words are capitalized at the beginning of the sentence and for proper nouns. (My preference.)
2) Capitalization of the first letter of the word isn't random; it's at the beginning of the sentence and for proper nouns. (Another option.)

ehhh...having a perfect butt is overrated!
I'll take the title of nuts, you can have my Queen of Mean title! That comes w/ a tiara, scepter, ladies-in-waiting and a throne! I do, however, retain sole rights to the stable boy. He's HOT!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

You can have a perfect butt too! That feel better?

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Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

Why go simple when complex is an option?

I have a terrible habit, when writing for work, of ending up with long, long, long and stringy sentences that have way more commas than necessary because I'm just verbose that way, and always have been, ever since I was a little kid.

Oh, well. It hasn't stopped me from writing for a living. It's okay to be sloppy now and then, IMHO, but important to know the right way and be willing to do a little bit of searching for the 'right way' if you're not sure. I do that a lot!

When I had my last child, I completely lost all sense of its/it's, other than as a contraction. It is painfully annoying to me!

Would whoever gets the tiara let me borrow it next Saturday?

I write for attorneys, judges, and the public. All at the same time! Short, descriptive, and simple works for me I do love to read the writings of those who are gifted in language arts. I wish I had half the gift of those writers who can write a run-on sentence that paints a picture the reader can imagine with eyes closed.

I write persuasive text - usually grant proposals, and oddly, I really enjoy writing to egghead-type government readers. I am astounded at the poor language skills of some individuals I encounter who should be epitomizing writing perfection. An email I received from someone in a pretty powerful role last week just really left me discouraged about our standards.

I can be lazy when it doesn't matter. I don't care how people write on an internet message board. I know a number of people here do. But, I couldn't care less. I just find it funny when someone tries to be snarky and fails miserably at it.

I don't mind lazy, but usually it's fairly easy to tell the difference between lazy and incapable or completely mindless. It's hard for me to process a post that just comes across like a bunch of nonsensical rambling.

I've heard the person who sent me the poorly-written email present in person, and she writes just like she speaks. She seems like a very nice person, which is ultimately what matters in the end. It is, however, a little disconcerting to realize that she is in charge of the people who judge my work, and that they give away millions and millions of our tax dollars for the purpose of making sure others don't write or speak like she does! lol

My husband has to deal with HS math teachers that don't get basic math concepts.

No Lie!!!!!!

I think written English should be held to a higher standard than spoken English. We have had many threads about verbal "local" words, regionalized meanings, etc etc. When you are writing, take the time to spellcheck, proofread for context, check punctuation! I too find the "text speak" grating! My father was a college English professor and nothing set me on edge more than to go to my dd's FB page and read "What u doin? Nuttin, Im waitin for sum food to get cookered in the mwave"

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"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

I like when people write noone for NO ONE. I'm guilty of this one myself. Only after seeing it a few times did I recognize that it's not correct to do that.

I have a hard time reading some of the posts by posters who just run it all together. To each their own, but, if you want me to read your post, or expect others to, then you need to write with some breaks in your typing......the eyes need a rest.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yes, the dumbing down of America is already here and has been for quite some time. The school system is failing but the reason it's failing is because so many parents won't take responsibility for the actions of the children they created. Parents used to view school as their child's 'job' and the child was expected to do their job well. Now, too many parents think that it's the school's responsibility to teach their children everything without any help from them. It used to be that parents viewed the school as their partner in educating their children and the parents made sure that the child completed their homework assignments and helped them learn the material. Now, too many parents view the school as their babysitter and learning ends when the bell rings..

There's also too many parents who apparently believe that their child's 'right' to behave atrociously in school exceeds the rights of other children to learn in a quiet setting and these parents prefer to excuse their child's actions instead of addressing them. The education system used to focus solely on academics but is now expected to be all things to all children. The school system will continue to fail unless these parents take personal responsibility for their children and stop expecting the schools to teach their children all the skills that should have been learned at home.

I'm so with you! It is easy to sit back and put the blame on schools. But schools (teachers) are on the hook to teach all things academic and otherwise to children, as many parents shirk their responsibilities. At the same time, they are given less tools - (no longer allowed to give almost any type of relevant consequence, less and less $$ in the yearly budget for items like text books that get more and more expensive each year...).

My own personal pet peeve on the dumbing down of America: When Christmas cards come to my house addressed to "The Johnston's."* There are about six of us here - why address it to the possessive form of one of us??? It's my own little issue, and I always appreciate the cards anyway, but it bugs me enough to mention it here.

*(Actual names have been changed to protect the innocent...)

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

[quote=wowitsdark;3160845]Why go simple when complex is an option?

QUOTE]

As a courtesy to the one reading the text.
Rebecca

[quote=rebeccarr;3161665]Ah, but a complex sentence isn't incorrect or even necessarily long, so being complex doesn't equate with 'difficult' or 'confusing'... so the reader shouldn't have any more difficulty reading the text. All it means is that the sentence has one independent clause and at least one subordinating clause.

I'm with you on this one. My last name ends in a sibilant sounding letter and in order to pluralize it you need to add "es" to the end. People are always adding " 's " making it possessive instead of plural. My DD's English Honors teacher wrote "my office hours are Tuesday's and Thursday's from......" . I think you could see the steam coming out of my ears when I read that one!

A friend of mine who is a former teacher and is married to a teacher has a decorative slate at her entry that has their last name on it: "The W----'s". Now if it said "The W-----'s Home", it would be correct but it doesn't say that and it just drives me nuts every time I see it.

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

This is very common! My niece, who's a teacher, does this every year! I don't really get it...if you were saying "The horses" you wouldn't even think of using an apostrophe!

I think that may times, the apostrophe/plural/possessive issue is a result of not knowing it's wrong, but I know I've been guilty of it when I've over-analyzed. I wouldn't do it on a Christmas card, but... well, as an example, with those name plaques that you sometimes see on front doors. Is it labeling the *house*, meaning it's the Johnston's house, and therefore should read, "The Johnston's"? I guess in that case, it would be an adjective describing an understood noun (house).

Or is it labeling the *people*, and therefore should be "The Johnstons"?

Our last name ends in an 's', so it presents difficulty for lots of folks!

A sign on the house that says The Johnston's suggests that only one person lives there (singular possessive). If the sign was meant to convey that this is the home of more than one person, it needs to say The Johnstons' (plural possessive) or "The Johnston Family."

But when addressing a card to a whole family, the sender probably intends to convey The Johnstons (just plural without the possessive). No apostrophe needed. As far as I can imagine, there is probably never a need to put an apostrophe into the name of a family receiving a card - the sender is writing to the family - not to the family's house. So no ownership need be conveyed...

An 's' at the end of a last name is always tricky, and probably subject to a lot of people employing their own version of the rules - I feel for you!

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

So would addressing the envelope to " The Johnston Family" be a correct way of sending mail? That is what I usually do, so I hope it is right.

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Donna

Yep, Donna, that is perfectly perfect.

Devinmom, we do have an 's' at the end and it messes people up like crazy.

I do fine as long as I don't over think it and convince myself that there is an understood but absent noun to which the word with the 's' issue is referring! lol!

You all remind me of the librarians that I substitute teach for. That is a compliment... or should it be complement???

If we were to make a list of what makes a good teacher, "good speller" would probably not be on the list or would be near the bottom. There are some things that can be overlooked, in my humble opinion, and this is one of the things that I have never chosen to dwell on as my children have gone along through their school years.

I agree with this.

I just enjoy rules surrounding grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. I'm also interested in etymology. It has little to do with teaching, for me. I actually get a charge out of seeing things like professional signs in front of buildings that are incorrect. Yeah - I know...very nerdy!

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Now, I do get a kick out of seeing those signs. Two recent ones I saw here are: Patriotic "reefs" for sale. AND- Hot sandwishes!

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I don't dwell on it. But, I do hold teachers to a bit of a higher standard for some things. Using proper punctuation, spelling, sentence structure, etc. are some things I want my children's teachers to practice.

Kind of like I hold Doctors and nurses to a higher standard. I expect them to be able to spell correctly (and explain) certain words that I wouldn't expect the average person to spell, much less explain!
And yes, if I receive a doctor's dictation or chart note that is full of errors, I do bring it to the doctor's attention. Whether it's the doctor's errors, or that of the transcriptionist, it reflects poorly on the doctor.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I agree, marilyn. I don't think someone with poor spelling / grammar skills is a bad person, or even that they aren't adequate in the classroom. But knowing that their job is to impart what they know to their students - and given that command of our language is really central to all our communications - I do notice whether or not they have a good handle on those rules themselves.

I remember writing term papers in high school not just for English courses, but for my American History and Consumer Sciences classes, as well. We weren't just graded on the information we presented; we had to turn in rough drafts that were marked with red ink for spelling and grammar.

If those teachers were going to be expected to point my child in the direction of accuracy, if they themselves didn't know how to distinguish correct from incorrect, it was like the blind leading the blind. They were paid professionals, charged with the duty of teaching kids the correct way to write.

I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in a weight loss specialist who was obese, a cashier who couldn't count change, a nurse who couldn't find a vein, or a driver education teacher who couldn't parallel park. In fact, if I saw the driver education teacher on the town square struggling to pull in between the lines, I'd notice it much more than if I saw anyone else having trouble with it. The level of expectation is higher when you are the teacher... and for good reason.

I think that sometimes signs are misspelled so as to get the reader's attention... a marketing ploy. Sort of like the backward N that I saw somewhere when I was a kid. It really made me study the sign and I remember it to this day.

What if a teacher is only doing what her school has adopted... ie *site* words? Not picking on groovygirl (those who know me know that I do not pick on people here) but she repeated this point a lot and she has been the one who has gotten somewhat bashed, not her school or district that made up the name and spelled it wrong. Maybe they were trying to be catchy or internet age appropriate or something else that we don't know?

I have no idea why they named it that, but you are right....it might be that reason. I just don't worry over it since the kids are not using it. Oh, believe me, the two signs I mentioned were hand written and not done on purpose! lol

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon