I'm in total shock as I have never heard of this before ever ! And I totally DON'T understand why the hell they are doing it if they are able to carry a baby on their own anyway. This is just way over the top for my taste. It seems strange and sorta of kinda of I don't know the word I'm looking for, but this is not something "to me" that's normal for a doctor to be doing on a same sex couple. I think the doctors that are doing these IVF have lost their minds lately.


'Iron Chef' Cat Cora and partner both pregnant - MSN TV News

I don't know why they are doing it this way but it doesn't bother me at all. I think it is up to them.

True Very True it's up to them for sure, I find this so odd to " swap " a baby if you are able to carry a child on your own.I completely understand carrying a baby if one is not able to do so on their own, and I understand donating eggs so you are able to have a baby with a sergeant mother, but never in my life have I ever heard of 1 person carrying their partner baby while that person is carrying your baby. Seems so wrong and odd to me. I do really believe some of these IVF doctors are doing anything and everything just for the money.I mean it's not like one got pregnant and then the other found out she was pregnant a few months later, each had to have IVF to even be pregnant and being they both have other children already why not just use your OWN eggs and carry your OWN child. Strange to say the least.But as you said, it's each to their own.( even if it is weird )

Well... they are lesbians.. they love each other.. this is their only way of having each other's child. Makes sense to me.

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

Perfect example of why marriage should be between a man and a woman! They are physically complimentary to each other. Lesbians are not. Gay men are not. God/nature set it up that way. Simple biology. This is part of the slippery slope with IVF, etc...

What she said.

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I understand why they did it but I think it's incredibly stupid to swap eggs. They both missed out on carrying their own child and opened up a legal can of worms if their relationship doesn't work out.

Oh for goodness sake, go spew your hate doctrine somewhere else. The OP didn't ask for your opinion on gay & lesbian marriage. She was asking for comments on the article.

Now if you have a problem with IVF in general, that's one thing.......but you take any opportunity to beat us with your righteous stick, whether it's asked for or not.

__________________
Come and visit the gang at TLJ
PM me for info

Sorry to say, but i have to agree with kathytheshopper on this one. We all have opinions about things one way or the other. This just so happens to be her reason why she feels it is wrong. Why can't people just have their own opinion? without being called hateful. Just because i don't agree with gay relationships myself doesn't mean i hate gays. Ugh.

__________________
SAHM of Bailey 12, Tyler 10 , Emily Ann 6, and Ryan Matthew 4 yrs old.

I think doctors are getting involved way too much with too much... I keep asking myself, what's next? There *is* a slippery slope with IVF.

That said, I think susiecat did a good job of saying how I feel about it on an emotional level but biologically, I can't agree with it.

That is a very BIGOTED statement.

Notice...I didn't call anyone a name.

But, since Kathy is allowed to express her OPINION about what is natural (God/nature set it up that way) I think I can express my opposing opinion, correct?

Well, I think the above statement is a perfect example of why people should mind their own business. I think that anyone that is quick to envoke what God wanted - which usually goes back to biblical teachings - is nothing more that a hypocrite because I would be willing to bet that they don't personally practice what the preach and follow the "good" book to the letter of the law. (example: ever been divorced? eat pork? not listen to your husband? -- you should start packing your bags for hell along with with the "gays"). And just for the record, not everyone practices the same religion --- your belief system is a choice. I think people that are quick to judge others and want to repress or hinder their personal rights or happiness are just truly unhappy, insecure people themselves -- that, or they are just ignorant whackjobs.

You know, but that is just my opinion....

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Nice post and not only just your opinion - but this reflects the opinion of other people who are here as well. Two thumbs up! Way up!

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Kelliiii - I personally appreciate you seperating namecalling from disapproving of the behavior and/or the opinion - and pointing out inconsistencies/hypocrisies. I wish more people would follow your example. Thanks, cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Yes, you are right, and it make sense to me to.

I don't understand why some people think it's a "blessing" for straight people to have IVF but a "sin" for gay people to have it.
I feel that as long as the person having IVF really wants to have a child and has the resources to raise a child on their own WITHOUT gov't assistance then their sexual orientation doesn't matter. I'd much rather see a child being raised by an honest, loving gay couple than a trashy, abusive straight couple.

__________________
Jesus SAVES by shopping smartly and using double coupons!

I think life is too short, and people need to be who they are, and do whatever makes them happy...as long as its legal and doesn't cause harm to anyone else. Its been a rough month for me, and because of that...I find myself realizing that no one knows how long they will have, so they need to make the most of the time they have. I just don't have a problem with gay people who are in love, having children. It seems very small on my scale of things to get stressed about...

I've got to agree with you on the blessing part. I don't believe in IVF either. As far as my earlier opinion it's a biological FACT that men and women were made to reproduce. That has nothing to do with religion. I followed the McCaugheys and all their kids and always had a problem with them saying they trust in God but used fertility drugs. That didn't make sense to me. As a society we are way too self centered-I want a child so I'm just going to get a sperm donor and go for it.

Back to the original post. So she and her partner already have two children. Now they are having two more that will be born 3 months apart. Doesn't this get confusing for the children? First of all the don't have a "dad". Don't people appreciate the male/female mating and what each person gives to the child? Does this couple not think their fathers were important and can raise their own kids without a father? I'm not talking about having male role models in their life, I'm talking about a daddy. Then when you explain biology and mating what do you tell the kids and is that really fair to them? Is anything "normal" then? Where are the boundaries drawn? If men and women are biologically created to mate then how do you explain it? Isn't it confusing that Partner A carried this child and Partner B carried this one, etc... Does that make one more of a mom to the child than the other one? Isn't there a biological bonding between the parent and the child they carried? Of course both partners love both the children but how do you not feel at least a tiny special bond with the child you carried? I can see two little kids in this scenerio- Mom A had me and Mom B had you? Does that mean Mom A likes me better? Is she my "real" mom? Where is our daddy? These are children and what a weird world they are being brought in to. If you raise them so that both "moms" are equal doesn't that somehow diminish the mother/child special bond? Doesn't it just seem more like breeding?
Child A-these are my "moms". This one is my biological mom. I have no clue who my dad is. He's just a "donor". One of my other siblings is my blood sibling, the other two are my half-siblings. We all have the same daddy donor but half of us have one moms genetics and the other half have the other ones. Isn't "this is my mom and this is my dad" a heck of alot easier?
I always think that when single women have children with a donor they sure aren't saying their dad was very important. Same with same sex partners.

Kathy, I agree with you.

I know it's absolutely not the PC thing to do, but I do.

There is something very basic about what it takes to make babies. I am religious and would be lying if the basis of my opinion was rooted in anything else. I think when God created us, he had a plan and a set of promises and that while yes, life is too short to worry about the unimportant things, it's also too short to ignore the important things... and I think our behaviors and attitudes are something not to be ignored in the short years we have.

It takes two to procreate - a man and a woman. A male and a female. I think there is divine rationale behind that, and when we mess with it, we are messing with something much bigger than just our own hopes, wishes, and feelings.

There are a lot of things I might *want* that I'm simply not physically equipped to pull off. Never will be. No matter how long I might yearn for some things that for some people are perfectly natural and something THEY take for granted... those things aren't in the cards for me.

I can either accept it and run with what I can achieve, or I can try to subvert my own deck of cards and make them into something they aren't.

I think when we go messing around with the lives of children and their identities because we *want* babies that we're messing with an 'order' that we just don't have any business in. Sex is more than just procreation and recreation - it's the joining of two people that often results in the creation of new people. Those new people, IMHO, deserve to be born into an 'order' that fits the scheme that, IMHB, God set out for mankind.

And women, by themselves, cannot make babies.

I'm really conflicted on the whole IVF thing. Not so much when, for instance, a man has a low sperm count and they concentrate sperm and fertilize his wife's egg and implant it.... or when a woman's ovulation cycle is messed up and this is the only way she and her husband can get things in sync... or even if there are embryos that have been created by a couple that are going to be discarded unless someone 'adopts' them. Even then, this process isn't without heartache and potential pitfalls.

I know a family that adopted embryos, had children through those embryos that are biological siblings... and both of their children got cancer. Is that a result of having a gene set that wasn't matched to their 'host' as they were developing? Who knows? The couple whose eggs they 'adopted' had children from some of those eggs, and those children didn't get cancer.

I think it's a slippery slope. Say there is a 'threesome family', a man and two women. Say they remove eggs from both women, fertilize them with the man's sperm, and then swap the embryos so each woman carries the other's baby. Personally... I think that'd be sick and wrong. The creation of new life is nothing to treat with such contorted efforts, just because some adults want to fulfill their personal 'hole' in life.

Call me crazy... but I just think there is a lot to be said for the old fashioned mommy+daddy=baby method of family math.

Makes sense looking at it that way.

Wowitsdark-that was eloquent and beautiful!!!

Just because a Husband gets a Wife pregnant doesn't make him a Daddy. I think the kids will be very lucky to have 2 Mommies who love them. Since the father of all the babies is the same guy, I am guessing he's in their life.. as a friend. So if he is, then they do have a daddy.

Their life will be normal for them. They'll know no other way and HOPEFULLY no one will tell the kids their life isn't normal. I think there is no Normal or Not Normal. Just different.

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

sure there is...

However, I think it is incredibly self-righteous of "straights" too presume that they are the only ones who should be able to pro-create. I think that often when things or different from us--we feel threatened, we feel apprehensive because we don't understand. And just because we don't understand something doesn't make that something wrong or bad. I personally don't understand calculus. But, in the grand scheme of things, I'm sure calculus has a place.

I'm also a big believer that God has allowed some scientific findings and/or discoveries to come in to being. Sometimes, the ends DO justify the means.

I know that I can't change your (the general collective) mind. And I am not trying to. I do ask that you (again the collective, general "you") accept that because you believe it doesn't make it so. I don't know if my thoughts or views are right (all of the time). There are so many areas of gray, that I don't think there is one pat answer.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Marilyn, I do understand your premise, but I also believe that there are situations where the wisdom of the wise is confounded by situations that to us, in our human reasoning, don't make sense.

I agree that every man and woman who procreate aren't optimal parents. There are many parenting scenarios that I believe are outside the scenario that God intended for mankind. The situation noted in this post is just one of many.

So does this mean you (directed at people against gay people having families) don't believe 2 women or 2 men have the right to adopt children? I personally think that is closer minded. Straight people can suck at parenting. Just because the have the ability to make a baby they should and gay people that want kids and would make great parents should not have the chance?

I personally find that way of thinking very close minded and bigoted of people. Maybe if people were more understanding and spewed less hate, the world and our society would be a better place.....

__________________
I dream to escape!

skeevy, I think you are missing the point. At least, my point.

I believe that when you adopt a system of faith... or belief... or compliance... not just religion, but a number of other things, as well, you comply to the fact that some things may not always make sense to your own human reasoning.

Here's a stupid 'for instance'. In basketball, I think it would make sense that if they go into overtime that anyone who had fouled out could come back in. There are a lot of legitimate reasons I can come up with and they are very reasonable and rational and I could get lots of people to see my logic.

But that doesn't change the fact that if I am playing basketball and I foul out that I cannot rejoin my team on the court in a 5th quarter. I may not get it or like it, but I would stand by it as "the rule" and wouldn't fudge it in the playoffs, even if it meant a loss to me, just because in playing the game, I accept the rules and the blessings and the consequences they bring.

The same is true, IMHO, with faith. I believe God created the world and everything in it, and when I read his words, there are a lot of things that don't jive with my own logic. But because I believe he set us all in motion and he created the rules, personally, I have to do my best to interpret them for what they are - which sometimes is contrary to my own system of logic.

It's not that I am bigoted or *want* anyone to not get to fulfill a dream because I hate them. Far from it. And in fact, I hope I'm wrong and that there is a broader level of acceptance on God's part of these things. But when I personally try to read and discern what *HE* wants... there are some things that do go against my own personal understanding.

Again... not very PC. Not PC at all. But it is what it is... and I own it without apology.

And I agree with you - many straight people suck at parenting, and I wouldn't adopt children out to sucky straight parents, either.

Let me say that I couldn't careless if they are gay,lesbians or green with pink poke dots lol. I'm not going to get into my 'personal" views of who should have babies or how it was planned for couples to have babies.
I'm just having a very hard time understanding why they "swapped" eggs.
As far as giving each other a baby well not for sure I buy that as the reason why they have done this because it's the only way to give each other a child., Al tho it does make sense to a point. I'm just wondering who does the child call Mommy ? the egg supplier or the one carrying them ? Seems so confusing to want to do that. Wanting to have a baby and being lesbians they know well in advance they cant create a child and somewhere down the line "sperm" will have to be apart of having a child.
Why not just have a baby with the man woman A and then later woman B has a baby ?.. Guess this is just so odd for me to understand the reasons behind them doing it this way. Creating a baby out of love doesn't mean any less if only 1 Person carried the child. This just seems to high schoolish to me. Like swapping dates. Weird Weird.

Absolutely without any hestitations no problem at all. They deserve the right to do whatever they please to bring a baby into this world, gay people deserve all the same rights as everyone else plain and simple. More power to them all the way 100 percent... Catherine

Don't think of it as 2 girls swapping babies/eggs.. and being all high schoolish. Think of it as a Couple bringing forth life into the world. Like a husband and wife.. except it's a wife and wife.

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

I think the swap is to make it more theirs instead of mine vs mine.

__________________
I dream to escape!

I understand why they would carry each other's child. It would truly make each child a part of both of them.

__________________
Mary

To me, both sides of this issue have really compelling arguments.

However, what weakens the argument for me is when a poster accuses the other side is "spewing hate"...

This came up twice in this thread by two different posters/usernames ... on the same side.

I don't think anyone said anything hateful in this thread, unless some stuff has been deleted that I didn't get to see...in fact, I think *most* of the exchanges have been quite respectful.

There are at LEAST two sides to every controversial topic. To suggest that either side is hateful just for being on the other side seems extremely narrow-minded.

When posters can argue their side of any issue without resorting to juvenile name-calling and slamming posters with the "hate" card, their arguments seem way more valid to me...Narrow-mindednmess here is generally a turn-off.

Just saying...

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Except a "wfie and a wife" can't naturally procreate.

Wowitsdark I agree with everything you have said. I like the basketball analogy too. I also like to put it this way. God is Almighty and knows all. We are his children. When we are raising our children we make decisions for them all the time that they don't understanding the reasoning behind. I see God as the parent and all of us as his children so we are naturally not going to see it the same way. That's where faith and trust come into play as a Christiam.

and sometimes a husband and a wife can't naturally procreate either. Should they not be allowed to experience the joy of childbirth?

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

This is the most ridiculous, unsubstianted piece of garbage I think I have ever read.

__________________
Raising my baby RIGHT!!!!!!

All the cool babies are wearing cloth!

You know I call 'em like I see 'em. KTS has been posting in this vein for a long long time. You may not see it as spewing hate. I do. It's that opinion thing and all......

__________________
Come and visit the gang at TLJ
PM me for info

I'm sorry - I don't understand your point, I guess.

It happened. I have no idea if it had anything, whatsoever, to do with the fact that an embryo with one set of genes was allowed to develop in what was essentially a 'foreign uterus', or if it was a fluke.

If I remember correctly, the couple whose eggs they were had had four children using those eggs, and the eggs and sperm actually came from the husband/wife who had the embryos planted. There wasn't an unknown donor. All of those children were fine. I don't know their ages.

They did not believe in simply discarding unused embryos but did not want more children, so they allowed them to be 'adopted'. They were implanted in my friend's sister-in-law (not simultaneously) and they ended up with two of those eggs 'taking' and consequently had children. Those children had problems - the ones that the bio-mother gave birth to did not.

It very well may have been a fluke. I honestly don't know - and I may have gotten a detail or two wrong in there (like how many kids the bio-parents of the embryos had)... but the general story did occur.

I'm torn about IVF from a personal standpoint, but generally don't think I'm *against* it. I just think that we *are* messing with nature in ways that may have consequences we are unaware of.

I don't think it's ridiculous to consider the *possible* scientific implications of the efforts we make in the area of procreation.

I believe this is the side of the story that I have the most trouble with. I was raised with a father who was a genetic engineer and he had such ethical concerns about cloning (I do know that cloning is different from IVF but it is along the same lines of messing with nature... ie playing God) and so there was a lot of discussion about it in our household as I was growing up... I guess I just wonder where the line will be drawn (think Octomom as an example).

That had to be a really interesting topic to have going on in your household as a kid, Cuthie.

And the Octomom scenario is a really good one to bring up. I know that for every legitimate use of a scientific capability there is a screwy way to mis-use it, and generally I don't think that the 'screwy' mis-use should render our hands tied when someone wants to make legitimate use of a scientific procedure. But we're playing with lives when it comes to this topic - and the 'created people' we're 'experimenting' with can end up as victims if we don't know what we're doing.

And yes, I know that bad things happen even when babies are created the old fashioned way. And when those things happen, we mourn them, and we hope and pray that science will find a way to eliminate them. If there was a way to prevent Downs, we'd be all for it. If we were pioneering a scientific procedure that had the potential to *increase* the chances of Downs, we would say it's not fair to the children who will result from this procedure.

We *think* we know these new capabilities we have are safe. We *think* there are no consequences to the resulting people who come forth from these scenarios - that psychologically they will be whole, that physiologically they have an equal shot at health when compared to 'regularly created babies'.

But this is all still relatively new in the scope of things. Our hunches about psychological impacts are just that - hunches. I am a big supporter of adoption and have more adopted relatives than just about anyone I've ever met, but I also know that even some of my nieces and nephews who were adopted at birth have some issues that are unquestionably genetic - from learning disabilities to bi-polar disorder - because as adults they came to know their bio-parents and were made aware of their genetic histories. Do I think the kids had a better shot at normalcy for having been adopted? You betcha. But that better shot was no guarantee.

In our *logic*, it seems perfectly reasonable that if the pieces are there (an egg and a sperm) that the resulting baby will be fine, regardless of the situation surrounding the development of the embryo/child. In our *logic*, so long as love and affection are present that the child will be fine, regardless of *who* gives that love and affection and which personalities are present and which ones are missing. All ya need is love.... maybe.

Or maybe not.

We can speculate and we can form opinions 'til the cows come home, but the reality is that the jury called 'time' is still out on this one.

Tessa you go girl go , I simply loved loved what you said, most unsubstianted ridiculous piece of garbage. Sorry but bigory still exists even in 2009. Also I do not agree God created all of us and loves all of us one and all... Thanks so much Tessa you spoke the truth. Peace. Catherine

Of course God loves each and every one of us. It doesn't mean He is happy with our choices but His love is unconditional. Remember the Prodigal Son?

Well that's a tricky question. There is adoption you know! It goes back to simple biology-a man and a woman have the biological components to procreate. Man/man or woman/woman do not. It's simply not what nature intended. So throwing the what if a husband and wife can't naturally procreate is comparing apples to oranges. If a male/female couple can't procreate it doesn't mean that the male/female coupling in general doesn't work or is a faulty system. Biologically a male/male or female/female cannot ever procreate unless it is done with some outside help. It's been male/female for how many thousands of year??? Obviously it works the way nature intended most of the time!

Sorry kathytheshopper I disagree which is fine. God loves us all and how in the world do you know he is not happy with our choice. Being Gay or Lesbian is not a choice, please please do not go there, I will go one further if one of your children happen to be Gay what would you honestly do ???? Me no problem , your answer please??? Peace. Catherine

I am also interested in the answer too.

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

Wait...

Catherine gets to "go there" with her statement about it not being a choice, but Kathy is asked *not* to go there?

Catherine, you have baited Kathy and you know you will not agree with her answer. You will start 'yelling' "YOU GO GIRL!" to people who disagree with her.

What is peaceful about this? I ask this in all seriousness. I know you have typed it a thousand times before, but if you *mean* it... why posts like this one?

Wait wait wowitsdark, do you also know that God is unhappy with our choices, you also know this for fact. That statement is not true, no one person not me not you knows how God truly feels about our choices.Also wowitsdark Kathytheshopper and a few others have agreed with you, so big deal again their choice, their views. Now personally if I choose to post that I am happy with someone having the same point as me, what is the problem with that???. Other people have made negative comments againist you. But as always you keep hounding me not them. Like Tessa or Kelliii why because they do not use the word peace. Nah it must be it has to be more then that ??? . Peace. Catherine

So, are you saying that if "nature" doesn't work--tough ****, Adopt? Oh, and a follow-up: is it ok for a gay couple to adopt?
You do realize that some species (that presumable your God created as well) don't need another member to procreate...

KTS--it's ok to disagree. When discussing these types of topics, you have to play the "what if" game.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Lucy, what you usually say is, "YOU GO GIRL!" or something to that effect.

When someone calls another poster a bigot or a racist and you say, "YOU GO GIRL!" it comes off like you want them to continue the name calling.

You could simply say, 'I'm glad to see that you and I agree."

Perhaps our geographic locations are to blame for us having a different understanding of the phrase, but to me, when you say, "YOU GO GIRL!" it sounds like you are egging on someone to rant on against the person you disagree with.

Keep posting wowitsdark how many posts now have you make comments after I have spoken, again I asked there are a few others who disagreed with you , but none of them so far have gotten a response from you. Again it is nothing personal I am just happy that some other poster agree with me. That is my choice to be happy also this is getting boring, you have gone off topic so many times, so boring I am yawning..... Back to op again I am sorry this post is not about me, however I cannot stop someone from continuing to make comments about me and my usage of peace. So to all and op it ends here for me. I spoke my peace and my views, op once again no problem carrying each other's babies no problems life is too too short. Peace. Catherine

I'm not wowitsdark, But I'm guessing it will depend on which side of the bible you are standing on to know if god is happy with our choices.

Then who do you believe created us ? and how do you know he/ she/ it/ doesn't love us ?

Sunset, I realize Catherine invoked my name when she mentioned God and choices and happiness, but it was actually Kathy who said that God loves us unconditionally but that does not mean he is always happy with our choices.

That's why I didn't respond to that statement initially.

I will say that sure, I think there are plenty of choices that people make that God isn't happy with. If I beat my child, if I cheat my mother, if I lie to the judge... there are situations that, IMHO, have no shades of gray and are literally black and white. It's not always okay to say, "We can agree to disagree," because sometimes one side is literally, truly, actually *wrong*.

I grew up in the religious tradition that I belong to now as an adult, but there are things that were part of my upbringing that I do not hold to.

Someone mentioned - not sure if it was in this thread or the other similar one and I'm too lazy to go back and look - that people who say they follow the Bible and don't follow it all (and mentioned the eating of pork) had better pack their bags for Hell. See... this statement really isn't, IMHO, made out of knowledge but is really just a reaction to a personal feeling about the gay issue that that poster has.

The laws about not eating pork were given to the Jews. This edict came about during the time of Moses, and even today Jews still abide this command.

I've never been a Jew. I am Christian. The law concerning pork was not written for Christians, so eating bacon doesn't mean I need to pack my bags for Hell.

The thing is... in my adult life, I haven't just based my faithful beliefs on what my parents taught me or what my church says or what my own gut feelings or assumptions about matters happen to be. I've taken the time to study for myself, tried to read things with a fresh, open mind that wasn't so tied to what I'd always been taught - or tied to what I might WANT to be true because it felt *nicer* - that I couldn't absorb what GOD was saying.

If I believe He is who He says He is, and if I believe the Bible is the inspired depiction of his spirit and his wishes for us, then I have a responsibiity not to be too emotionally invested in my own assumptions when I try to figure out what *He* wants from mankind.

I don't want to be like a scientist who skews his lab testing methods so that the outcome proves the point he 'always knew to be true.' I want double blind studies and unbiased sources because I want to get to the TRUTH... not just validate my feelings and beliefs, which may or may not align with "True".

Lucy, I have absolutely no idea if you have personally sat down, with an open mind, and read through your Bible and asked yourself, unfettered by your preconceived notions of what God *surely* approves of, what he is trying to get across. I know that when *I* did that - read it right through and chewed on those words and principles - that I came to change some views I had - some becoming more liberal and others more conservative - and I came to believe more deeply some things about which I had rather shallow opinions.

It will seem like I am picking on you here, and I want you to know that is not my intent... but this is the most simple way to convey what I am talking about. Your signature line talks about your brother Sonny being an angel in heaven. I used to envision people I loved who had gone on before me as though they were surely angels in heaven, looking down over me. So I understand why you like the feeling that brings, etc.

Have you ever actually studied the Bible (I say this because you have indicated you are Christian) with an open mind and asked yourself what an angel *is*? Because once I did... I realized that dead people do not become angels. There is nothing to support this idea that sounds so nice and warm and fuzzy. Angels existed before people, and exist today, but they are not 'former people'. They are no more 'dead humans' than clouds are.

That doesn't mean that *souls* do not go to heaven. It just means that there is no basis for the assertion that they become *angels*. I'm not knocking you for your sig line - I at one time believed that's how it all shook out. But when I put my assumption aside and actually read the book... I realized I was way off.

very well spoken wowitdark.
Sorry about replying on your part. I sometimes do that because I feel as if I know where that person is standing on their views.

If one of my sons was gay I would love him unconditionally! That being said, I don't have to agree with his choices, just like I wouldn't agree with him if he were "living in sin" with a female or married and having an affair. There's a difference between loving someone and license-ie giving them permission to do whatever makes them happy regardless of the costs emotionally, spiritually, etc... I have tons of gay cousins and I love them so no judging please. Also, I believe He made man and woman with the proper anatomy to procreate so it seems reasonable that that is the way it's supposed to be.

And yes, God loves us unconditionally, but he isn't always happy with our choices. Just like as parents, we watch our children stumble and fall but we never stop loving them, even when we are unhappy with their choices. That's how I see it anyway.

First you say God loves us ALL and then you say he only loves some of us. Make up your mind! And you say you're a Christian and believe in God and that he created us - but not ALL of us. So how were the ones not created by God made? Who or what picked up the slack? LOL.

And you STILL don't understand why no one takes your views seriously? You don't even know what your views ARE. Your posts are contradictory and don't make sense but we're used to that - they rarely do.

Nice to know that you can speak on behalf of God. Does he check in with you on everything?

__________________
Come and visit the gang at TLJ
PM me for info

You said so much more in your statement, but I condensed it a bit for space in the quote section.

Thank you so much wowitsdark for your thoughtful and clearly-stated responses to many of these posts. I am responding here in this thread, but I have meant to respond to many of the threads in which you have posted. Your posts are never cruel or petty, but always enlightening and even instructive. Many contain things I wish I could have written.
Again thank you.

__________________