DH and I are both ex-military , he was an O and I was an E, our era of service was the 70's, I have my gedunk medal for Vietnam era service.

Because we were both O & E we got to see more of life on both sides, had friends in both camps.

We currently have a married child in the the Guard, expecting to be deployed in the fall of '09.

I know things have changed a lot since our time in service, so my opinions are formed from our time and what our kid and kid's spouse are going through now.

BTW, both our kid and spouse have college degrees and enviable civilian jobs at the Mayo, but kid chose not to accept a commission, even though kid took ROTC classes all throughout college. (not on ROTC scholarship)

Soooo........I can well remember how difficult it was for fams with only one or two kids to make ends meet, even living in base housing, even being able to shop at the commissary, even having most medical needs paid for on base or with CHAMPUS. And this was in the days before every little thing your kid needed or wanted to do at school had an extra fee attached to it. I don't think that back then if your kid needed braces it was covered. Please don't reply back and tell me kids don't *need* braces, it's only cosmetic. I have several kids who have needed braces just in order to be able to close their mouths or breath or eat normally.

A lot of our fellow servicemen/women lived in crappy trailers or in cramped & sub-standard apartments due to a lack of base housing. (we've BTDT as well) Base housing at the places we were at was not like you see on tv, it was usually bunches of shoddy row homes. We were at some places where there were nicer town home type units, but those were far and few between back then, certainly not the norm, dunno what it's like now. The largest of those row homes had 3 bedrooms.

Because both DH and I had jobs, and were in the military, and especially since one of was an O, we made out much better than most folks. Then again, we were used to living with less than the civilian public and thought we'd hit the mother lode the one time we actually got base housing in a place where base housing was fabulous by anyone's standards.

I believe DH and I have lived a remarkably blessed (or charmed, if you will) life, but that's not how it was with almost everyone else we knew.

I remember the wife of one of his bosses, a Navy captain, telling me once about how she had to decide if she could could buy a pair of shoes on payday, or if it would have to wait and figure out how to tape or otherwise make her shoes last a bit longer. They didn't have a large fam, only 2 or 3 kids. Both he and she were well and highly educated, not the sort of folks one would think would hafta debate whether or not to buy a pair of inexpensive shoes over groceries. And because he was a bigwig on base, they were expected to do a lot of entertaining, w/out extra $$ to do so, just outta his pay. They lived on base, but they had all the expenses related to college and high school aged kids. And medical treatments at bases are not always what you'd want for your fam, trust moi on that score, it all depends on where you are stationed.

Even buying food at a military commissary can strain budget if you have teenaged boys or atheltic girls in your fams.

The thriftiest folks I have ever known have been military folks. They *know* how to make a nickel squeak.

As someone earlier posted, even with housing and food allowances (it was called COMRATS when I was in), if the housing market near your duty station is getting top dollar, you're screwed.

The military doesn't pay for car insurance, or give you opportunities to fund a 401K (at least it didn't when I was in, and my kid hasn't mentioned it), or pay for auto repairs, vet bills, lost retainers, etc. All the lil things that life costs civilian folks. (okay, someone is gonna say folks don't need pets, but to service fams those pets are one of the few constants in their lives).

Think of the zillion lil things that eat away at your paycheck, they do the same thing to military fams' paychecks as well, but their paychecks are much less than they would be in civilian markets.

What if you have elderly or ill parents, grandparents, sibs, or other fam members? Who pays for the visits and phone calls to keep up on it all? Back then (again, I'm talking of the 70's) we were charged by the minute for LDX calls, plane tickets were expensive. Everyone has to deal with this crud, but military fams have less $ than folks in civilian markets to do so. Okay, now we have cell phones and land lines with unlimited LDX minutes, so that's an improvement. But you can't always get free military flights for fam emergencies when needed, that *hasn't* changed as far as I know.

How far can $2300-2600/month stretch if you're stationed near Seattle, or S. CA, Chicago, or NYC?

I don't know the housing markets in most metro areas, but in the 70's there was no way we coulda made ends meet for very long if we hadn't gotten base housing.

I say give those military fams as many bennies and as much financial assistance as is allowable by law. They are making sacrifices so many of us are unwilling or unable to make in order to keep all of us sleeping as safely as possible at night.

Yeah, I also knew my share of slackers in the military, but even the slackers had expectations above and beyond what the civilian population had to deal with on an everyday basis.

BTW, neither DH nor I were career military, we did our time and got out as soon as we were able to do so. In the late 60's and early 70's I went to more war protest events than I can recall, I was the anti-thesis of someone who woulda joined the military. I only joined as a way to pay for college, but received a richer education in the military than any of the colleges I went to later on in life. I copped out to many of my friends back then. I don't regret one minute of that time in the military, even though some of the worse times of my life occurred then.

MZ, I'm not sure what you're asking in your post, but, I'll weigh in a bit now,then more tomorrow. It's late, and my brain is fried.

First of all, a LOT has changed since the 60's and 70's. Housing is very nice in many areas, since they are privatizing it, tearing down old, putting up new, as well are totally renovating others.

The COMRATS is now BAS, if I'm not mistaken?? I also think medical has made a turn for the better, too. It is more like civilian health care plans, and many facilities have civilian providers.

My original beef was not about the sacrafices that our military families make. I know it very well, thank you. My beef is with politicians playing on the ignorance of people who don't know the situation first hand, and are using military families to advance their cause. Also, knowing first hand what military life and pay is like in this day, I have a problem with military personnel being on food stamps. At any job, just starting out, you will not make a lot of money. An E-2 is just starting out.

Is military pay equal to civilian pay for the same job??? I don't know, but, IMO, it seems to me that when you factor in all the benefits our military get, it's probalby better than civilian jobs' pay in many fields.

There is a 401K type program, it's called TSP (Thrift Savings Plan). The military has changed a lot. The old saying about your family not coming in your sea bag??? Well, that's not used any more. There are so many programs in place now for the families, it really has come a long way. Do you remember making calls on the "POTS" line?

Are there people struggling in the military? Sure there are. But, is that the fault of the "employer"?

It's late, and I'm way side tracked....... will be interesting to see where this post goes. Good post.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

We are also ex-military and it was rough until DH was about an E-4 or so. We had 2 kids ( 3rd oldest lived on her own). He was in the military for 8 years, the last 3 years, he was an E-5, we knew he would be getting out because it was just taking too long to finsish his degree and the deployments, it just wasn't for us anymore. In the last 3 years we were able to save $20,000 of his pay, I was a stay at home mom at that point. When he got out he became a full time student using his GI Bill finsished his bachelors degree, got his masters degree and now works for the state. I work part time. We never had to pay any out of pocket medical expenses. We also never were able to get into base housing anywhere we were stationed. DH got out of the NAVY in 1999.

Fast forward: Son-in-law in now in the NAVY, he and my daughter have been married almost 4 years, both are 23 years old. Stationed in Oak Harbor, WA. They/he has been in the NAVY almost 5 years and is an E-5, no children, waiting until she graduates from college which should be in August. She does not work, she also has alot of health problems and is on the exceptional family member program. They live in base housing that is about 70 years old and needs weekly repairs, but there are no roaches or anything, there is plenty of new and vacant housing where they are but because they do not have children they can not get into it (which is not fair to me, so an E-1 with kids is living in a single house, while your E-5 and E-6's with no kids or 1 kid are living in the 70 year old housing which are also 3 bedrooms). The cost of living where they live is very high, so living in town is not really an option, they could not really get a decent apartment and pay utilities for their BAH which I think is around $1000 a month. She is a proud NAVY wife and purposefully wears her NAVY hoodie when she attends classes at Western Washington State University where she has had to walk through multiple anti-war protesters in order to get to class and she has to drive an hour each way to get to class. They have been stationed there a little over 2 years and he has been deployed 3 times, he deployes 6 months at a time for the job he does. When he is on deployment, he actually makes MORE money than we do combined and DH is a full time state employee with a masters degree and I work part time as a merchandiser, but he makes less when he is at home. His money that he makes when deployed to a combat zone is non-taxable so they also get a tax refund state and federal that we do not get. So they actually do pretty good for being 23 without college degrees. They have a newer vehicles than we do. These are their choices, everyone has choices in life and this has been the lifestyle they chose, for now anyway.

Anyway, they never qualified for food stamps, we never qualified for food stamps. It is only a certan few of those that live on base (because they don't count the housing allowance as income for food stamps) and have alot of kids that qualify for food stamps.

We did recenly look into going back into the NAVY because DH could get back in as an officer now and he could make about $20,000 more a year than he is making as a civilian. We decided that it was not worth the trade-offs for more money. Mainly because we live in a very low cost of living area and I know the places we would be stationed are not, we could not afford a house with an inground pool in a small town with a great school like we have now, with a commute of just 25 miles, it's just not possible, even on the extra $20,000 a year in those NAVY areas.

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visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

We were so poor in the military ( Navy)..I had to buy all my children's clothing from thrift stores. I had to pick hard poopies out of my kids diapers instead of changing immediately in order to make them last longer. Heck, in Cuba I could not even afford paper diapers and used cloth.

In cuba housing , it was so old ( early 90's)..that our kitchen counter-tops were Brady Bunch orange. When I ran a sprinkler in the side yard, the water seeped in our dining room. The house was made of cinderblock, and was like an oven . We had only 2 Navy issued A/C's..we could " buy our own " for the rest of the house ( window AC's)..we could not afford to. Our AC in our bedroom constantly froze up and did not cool adequetly ( remember, this is cuba, very hot outside ).

When my son was toilet trained..I had to save up for a month to buy him GI Joe under-roos that he wanted from the exchange.

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Live, Love, Laugh

At the risk of sounding mean/harsh/crass whatever you want to call it, I have just got to say, based on your postings, I am not surprised that you "had" to live this way. Aren't you the one who's DH has a seperate household from you?? That is expensive, maintaining two households.

When we lived in Hawaii, we were issued NO A/C units, had to buy them all on our own. We also received COLA (Cost of Living Allowance) because we lived in a high expense area. We banked the money, and made quite a lot while stationed there.

I just don't understand how a person can be living in Gov't Housing, paying NO utilities, and be struggling the way you say you were. The only thing I can think of is that you were in hock up to your eyeballs, making poor money choices. Again these are CHOICES, and not the fault of your employer.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

THANK YOU.....EXCELLENT POINTS!!! It is ALL about choices.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Allinqugust,

There is, or should I say back then..there was NO COLA for Cuba...check up on it if you'd like. ..there was also NO way to get foodstamps or WIC back then if you were overseas. maybe now they allow it, not back then. We had 2 children and my dh was a 2nd class. We had absolutely no credit cards back then, and were not in hock to our eyeballs. We had one Hyundai sedan we made payments on.

We lived in gov. housing but did not get BAQ in our checks..

I really think you need to know , not every one is the same in the military.

If I remember, our paychecks back then were about $550 every 2 weeks..out of that we made $200 car payments, $200 for groceries a month ( commissary )
phone bill ( that was not free )..plus expensive overseas calls to family in the states, we ran about $30 a month back then )
Car insurance , formula for the baby , gasoline which was higher overseas, clothing for growing kids, car repairs which were very expensive as well , you had to send back to the states for the parts, no auto parts on base. etc etc etc.

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Live, Love, Laugh

There is nothing wrong with shopping at thrift stores, we have plenty of money as does my military DD and her husband and we choose to shop at thrift stores all the time because of the value we can get there. We can get so much more for the money. We also shop at yard sales, so even people that have money shop at these places.

I would also like to add that my DD and her husband have no bills (same as us) , they do have one car payment, the other car is paid off, and they have a credit card for emergencies (I hope they learned this from me ) They live in base housing so they have no utilities, they just have to pay car insurance and renters insurance. They use the base medical facilities and since she has alot of medical problems she gets referred to Seattle alot, so far they have not had to pay ANY out of pocket expenses, even for a $30,000 surgery she had to have. I really hate them being so far away, but I am really proud of the alot of choices they have made regarding their personal lives.

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Allinqugust, btw..I had a friend stationed in Iceland who got COLA..to the tune of almost a thousand a month. You got COLA in Hawaii ( also the choice in Hawaii to live off base if you chose to, in Cuba you did not get that choice ).

I suggest if had COLA, you cannot talk about my "choices" when I lived in 1940 gov. housing in 1992, no choice to live off base, and no COLA to defray the cost.

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Live, Love, Laugh

That's amazing! My husband was also a 2nd class, that's an E-5 in the NAVY for those of you that are not familiar with Navy terms. In the late 90's we were stationed in Atlanta and managed to save $20,000 in 3 years. Our paychecks were nowhere near $550 every 2 weeks. We also had a car payment, rent, utilities, car insurance, renters insurance, no credit card bills though and 2 children. Even while saving the $20,000 we were still able to go to NBA Hawks games, Atlanta Braves games, Six Flags, etc. saw all the tourist attractions and museuems in the area like we did in every area were were stationed.

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visit my homepage http://penny.mycoupons.com/

Penny, this was early, not late 90's, and we lived in housing, so we did not get that added to our pay.

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Live, Love, Laugh

I've been an Army wife of an active duty soldier for 14 years now. We've never had to apply for food stamps or any other subsidy. Personally, I think the military offers excellent benefits and programs.

We've existed mostly on dh's income for the past 14 years. I've had jobs here and there, but since we've PCS'd 6 times now, it's not easy to keep a job for long, which I knew going in, so I'm not complaining. I now have my own business that's portable, so I don't have to worry about a job anymore.

For us, it came down to how we chose to spend our money. We're pretty prudent when it comes to grocery shopping. Sometimes the Commissary is not the best deal, so we shopped around. We were never forced to buy clothes at thrift stores, but we sometimes chose to.

We have lived in both on-post housing and off. The on-post housing we had was a mixed bag. In Kansas, it was quite nice. Up at Fort Wainwright, Alaska, it was post WWII housing that was torn down right after we moved out. There was asbestos in the bldg. and roaches the size of your thumb would come up in the basement from the tunnels under the bldgs. We had no A/C, despite the fact that it would get to 90+ degrees during the summer and our upstairs bedrooms would become ovens. However, we knew that going in. Living on post was a choice that we made. It was better than living way out in the woods in a cabin where we had to haul our own water in (literally) and pay $1200 a month for a 2-bedroom. We lived in the woods for a year before we got on-post housing. We were very thankful for our on-post housing, despite the sometimes poor condition it was in.

Using only dh's income, we were able to purchase our first home when dh was an E-4. We still have that home and rent it out now when we are not stationed down there.

We try to use military facilities when possible. For example, we go to the local Air Force base's vet clinic to get routine pet care. This saves us well over 50% from a non-military vet. My husband has taken classes toward his degree, and it hasn't cost him a penny, nor has he used any of his Montgomery GI Bill. If we buy furniture, we try to buy from the BX or PX to avoid paying the local sales tax. For us, the biggest benefit has been the medical. I have asthma, and I would hate to know how much my ongoing treatment and meds for that alone would have cost us over the past 14 years. We take advantage of USAA for our banking, car purchases, and insurance. The cost of our car insurance is very low due to our military affiliation. Dh does contribute to his retirement using the military's Thrift Savings Plan.

I guess I've never felt poor or disadvantaged as a military spouse. Yes, we have probably been technically under the poverty line at certain points, especially when dh was just starting out in the military. Now that he's an E-7, we do pretty well for ourselves. I really cannot complain. My 21-year-old daughter and her husband are both in the Coast Guard. After growing up as an Army brat and graduating at the top of her high school class, she decided to leave college and join the CG. She knew that the benefits and opportunities were more her style than sitting in college for 4+ years. She's now sailed all over the western world and has seen things that most people will never see. For our family, the military has been an excellent choice. Like any job, it has its positive aspects and its more difficult aspects, but we all know that going in. I'm not belittling anyone else's military experience; I'm merely sharing ours.

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Gina J.

Proud Army Wife and Coast Guard Mom

I have lived in what the military actually deemed "substandard housing" They "gave" us 25 % of the baq back. That was our 1st base and although we lived in the same caliber housing again at another location, it was never actually deemed that, nor did we get an allowance.

It is all about choices. I watched many young people and young families constantly have pizza delivered, bring home KFC, Mc Donalds, etc (this is true, the units were so close together) that I always wondered how they afforded it. I am certainly older, and somewhat wiser and realize they couldn't afford all that take out, nor their new cars. They just didn't have the sense to live within their means. The military means a steady paycheck. It isn't a lot for enlisted, especially in the beginning, but it is steady - so you know the amount coming in.

The banks and electronic/appliances places were always HAPPY to loan to military personnel because THEY knew there was a steady paycheck - as well as if the military member happened to default, their 1st shirt would be all over them.

There just isn't any excuse to not live within your means, or pick dry turds out of a baby's diaper, etc, as alleged here. Military or not, people have to be responsible for themselves.

dl

AMEN!
"people have to be responsible for themselves"---seems to me this statement could and should be applied to 75-80% of posts here!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Sorry, I don't buy into this, especially leaving dirty diapers on a child! I wrote in another on this thead, every military person knows how much they earn, they should be able to budget with a steady income. I can tell tales of woe about housing myself, and briefly mentioned actually having lived in what was deemed "substandard" officially.

I think in the past here on mc, you have had money problems (sorry if I am wrong, I seem to remember a lot of people offering help) so if I remember correctly, it seems to be a way of life for you.

dl

I have to laugh at this. In my current home, which was built in 1970, our counter tops are "Brady Bunch" orange. Personally, I think it's cute and kitschy, and I love it.

The bottom line is that the military, like any job, is what you make of it. If you decide to buckle down and be responsible, you'll make out quite well. If you don't, you'll have financial problems that will carry over into civilian life once you leave the military.

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Gina J.

Proud Army Wife and Coast Guard Mom

I think this is the root of the problem...

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I have no experience whatsoever with military pay/benefits but I do know about being poor.

There is no shame in shopping at thrift stores, garage sales and the like. There is no shame in living in a house that is time warped in the 60's. There is no shame in driving a car that looks like rust particles holding hands.

The only things I was taught to be ashamed of were being dirty and living in a filthy house. Soap doesn't cost much nor do many cleaning products and elbow grease is free.

People have to be responsible for themselves and use what they have to their best advantage.

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Jesus SAVES by shopping smartly and using double coupons!

~!~!~!~! standing to applaud for telling it how should be instead of give me, give me, give me !~!~!~!~

dl

edited to add.....no baby needs to have dried poo pellets in their diapers either, no matter what the pathetic excuse.

dl

We were Army for about eight years and it was rough when he first went in, but as he went up in rank it was a lot easier. I think we did pretty well. I used a lot more coupons and was a lot more organized then I am now with three kids and a home based business! I sometimes miss those days when I saved so much more money!

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NSDQ-Nightstalkers Don't Quit!

OMG! You had to use cloth diapers? The horror! The horror! LOL.

This is the stupidest and most disgusting post I ever read here!

1st thing - there's nothing wrong with using cloth diapers - I raised all mine with them and I kept them washed and fluffy and soft and CLEAN. Disposable diapers were and ARE, a luxury so if you have money problems, blame yourself for them because everybody knows not to buy luxuries if money's tight.

2nd thing - Don't try to pretend that the Navy's pay is so bad that you "have to pick hard poopies out of my kids diapers instead of changing immediately in order to make them last longer." That is disgusting and I don't believe it.

3rd thing - Since you CHOSE to maintain two separate households, you're sending out twice the money and that's your fault for making a bad decision.

4th thing - I raised four kids on a WHOLE LOT LESS than $550 every 2 weeks and I raised them well - none of them ever lacked for anything important and were happy. But I wasn't stupid enough to obligate myself to a car payment that used up more than a third of the paycheck and I NEVER would have wasted $30 a month for expensive overseas phone calls. I didn't have that LUXURY because unlike YOU, I also had to pay for a place to live - I didn't have government housing! Even with paying our rent, if we had made $225 dollars a week back then, I would have thought we were rich! I would have tucked away money out of that paycheck so don't hand your baloney out here. You were mismanaging your finances and everybody I know could have lived very well on your setup. But we didn't throw away our money and blame somebody else for our problems - we worked hard and we were happy we had what we had. We called it Life and thought it was a good one.

Bottom line - your money problems were and are all your own fault and you'd have problems wherever you work. It would be the same excuse no matter who employed you.

Military is a way of life, and it is not for everyone. It comes with it's own advantages, and its own hardships. Just like anything, it is what you make of it.

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Nicole

God bless ya'---I was hoping that you'd stop in! If anyone knows the hardships vs. the advantages I think you would.

If a person marries into the "military lifestyle" then they had better be prepared for the good and the bad. If a couple decides one or both should join after marriage--then one could presume that they knew what they were getting in to....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I don't know any military families - never have. Much of this post I don't really understand - the acryonyms, etc. All I do know is that those who volunteer for their country (and their families) deserve to be treated with the dignity and respect they have earned. Shouldn't military get all the same medical and retirement benefits and salary scale of our other "public servants" in Congress? How many career politicians would we have if they were treated like our military families?

getting off my soapbox..

p.s. I am just catching up on this board and other threads posted, so I understand this conversation alittle better. But I just wanted to add that I whole heartedly endorse the government using my tax money to buy some child - who's parent is on a war ship in the middle east - lunch. That is 100 times better than the crap they use it on now.......