I forget the name of the branch , sect, compound, etc. Seeking to something God..sorry..

what are your thoughts ?

I felt the children were very well behaved. It surprised me they did not know what "play" meant..they like to help their moms in the garden. The teen girls did not understand dating boys. I thought that was a bit odd..

I wonder what sort of jobs the men had to support such a large family ?

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I thought the whole thing was a bit strange.....they have no idea who Oprah is!

I also thought things were a bit 'staged', when Oprah was asking about colored people on the compound and what the kids were taught. I did notice that there were no people of color on the compound, just very white, white people. No latino, no asian, no african-american.

The hair thing was strange too.....she kept pushing that 'bump thing' but they didn't make any comments about her hair.....you would think they would be curious, but they seemed too polite to ask.

__________________
"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

I watched it also. I thought the kids were very well behaved. I believe it was the YFZ - Yearning for Zion.

The hair thing is a bit strange - also the girl who said they might need some company - that was a weird statement. I got the impression they were part of a cult like attitude and brainwashed into believing a bunch of CR*P.

I thought it was strange. Everything is perfect. No we aren't hit when we're bad, no underage marrying, etc. I personally find it hard to believe. No kids were goofing off. Come on.

__________________
I've never lied to you. I've always told you some version the of truth.

I didn't see the show. However, is the word you're looking for to describe the behavior Stepford??

I didn't get to watch the program but have it Tivo'ed. The polygamist group believe that people of color are not equal. They go by what the 2nd prophet of the LDS church (Mormons) Brigham Young said long ago:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109)...
...What is that mark? you will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see upon the face of the earth, or ever will see. Now I tell you what I know; when the mark was put upon Cain, Abels children was in all probability young; the Lord told Cain that he should not receive the blessings of the preisthood nor his seed, until the last of the posterity of Able had received the preisthood, until the redemtion of the earth. If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the preisthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the resedue of the posterity of Michal and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the preisthood, until the times of the restitution shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from michals seed. Then Cain's seed will be had in rememberance, and the time come when that curse should be wiped off.....

Again to the subject before us; as to The men bearing rule; not one of the children of old Cain, have one partical of right to bear Rule in Government affairs from first to last, they have no buisness there. this privilege was taken from them by there own transgressions, and I cannot help it; and should you or I bear rule we ought to do it with dignity and honour before God...

It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants...

...that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be pertakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the preisthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to desstruction, --

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...dandblacks.htm

I know that they follow the belief that their hair will wash the feet of either their husband or their God which is why the women do not cut their hair.
From what I have read, they were told that TV was bad by the Prophet and anyone who had a TV was disobedient and they believe that obediance is the first law of heaven and that the Prophet has the power to reassign families if the husband does not do as he is told. It is a religion that is very interesting.

__________________
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RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Hmmmm... I always thought Adam and Eve were African (black).

I didn't see the show.. I stopped watching Oprah years ago. Sounds odd...no kids playing?!

__________________
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!

If Vegetarians eat Vegetables. Do Humanitarians eat Humans?

'Vegetarian' is an old Native American word for bad hunter.

The observation that there were no people other than the whitest white people in the compund makes me wonder just what the racial makeup of the biggest cults in the US that exist/have existed are/were?
Seems to me that anytime a cult gets shown on tv that the vast majority of the people in it are white. The only exception I can really think of is the cult that followed Jim Jones, there were a good number of black people in that one(just saw a show on that whole fiasco last night so it's fresh in my mind).

The whole thing seemed very forced and staged. I do not believe for one nanosecond that there are no conflicts between any of the women like they were trying to get Oprah to believe. You could tell that Oprah didn't believe most of what they were saying, I know I didn't.

Although, as long as no children are being abused, no girls under the age of 18 are forced to marry and anyone is free to leave anytime they want, I really don't see what can be done to end this cult.

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They believe that they will be Gods of their own world if they follow the Prophet. If the husband is sealed to at least three wives and that is pretty hard to let go and leave, I am sure. From the time they are small the women are taught to "Keep Sweet" which means to never have conflict with sister wives and to be submissive. Since the only way a woman can get to the highest level of heaven is to be married and "called" by a secret name by her husband, she must remain married to him. But if she disobeys, the husband can ask the prophet to reassign her or unseal her which cuts her off from her family, her children (as they belong to the man) and most importantly her afterlife.

When you are taught this your whole life, and believe that God is speaking to the Prophet every day and in every word, you cannot question, or you will be risking everything. You cannot walk away unless you are willing to not believe any more and not many do so.

There is abuse almost assuredly on the compounds. Young boys are being thrown out of the compound on almost a daily basis because they are competition for the older men for the women. They are called the Lost Boys. There are lots of websites devoted to them, there are hundreds of boys who are alone and afraid. They are afraid because they are taught that the world is scary and dangerous. Without newspapers or TV, they believe whatever the prophet tells them. When you restrict access to regular life, there is no way you trust the people outside the compounds.

Wow, sorry this has gotten so long. I have studied this for so many years and it is fascinating to me.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

On so many levels I feel very uncomfortable with the way they choose to live their lives. Again as I have stated life is all about choices, however if it truly was only adults living this way, I guess I would be more at ease. However personally I do not believe in a man or wife having numerous spouses and more important why is it only the man who gets to have more then one.. Personally again I could never share my dh with anyone. But the real issues are the children, that they are married so young and have no contact with the outside world. Everything they do is involved within the compound. I just cannot be sure these children are not be abused and whether it is emotional, or physical I totally againist that... Peace. Catherine

I watched the show and I thought many of the answers seemed rehearsed, or if it was a question they did not want to answer, the subject was quickly changed. I honestly thought Oprah should have held their hand to the fire. I felt she let them off easily without really getting honest answers to many of her questions. They came across as a group of people being told what to say, and what not to say.

I think people are afraid to ask the hard questions in fear of trampling on people's religious rights, KWIM? Even though, it may look like a cult, they believe it is a religion.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Good answer. What is the exact difference between a cult and a religion?

__________________

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass
It's about learning to dance in the rain.

Well there are the definitions of a cult but I think it is perspective. There are people who believe all Christians are in a cult. And some who believe that all religions are cult like to some degree. I don't happen to believe so.
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and
domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members
and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social
contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their
ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I always wondered about this in polygamy - if there are men with multiple wives, would there not also be lots of men with no wives. What happens to these men? What kind of life are they to lead?

Well thats why you have to call the young boys disobedient and cast them out of the group. At least unless they're the favoured son of a higher standing male member - otherwise the ratio goes all to heck.

__________________
Meddle ye not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crispy, and taste good with Ketchup!

Young boys are cast out of the sect for small infractions which are deemed sins by the prophet. If a man of higher standing with the prophet wants your wives and children, the prophet has the right to recieve a revelation from God to take them from you and give them to him and cast you out for unrevealed sin.

The girls are prized because the entire point is to have as many souls as you can to build up your kingdom in heaven.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Women are wayyyy to smart to do the plural hubby thing.......usually, one is the most I can stand, and that is on a good day! No way do I want 3 hubbys competing for more attention!!!

__________________
"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

Actually polyandry (the having of more then one husband for each wife) is still alive and common in some rural areas to this day. Tibet comes to mind, but also India, Nepal, Mongolia and Kenya - as well as other places. Some versions have the wife marrying multiple brothers, and in others she alone picks her husbands. I'd imagine she has less trouble with men then some of us might think because the phrase "you can be replaced" has way more weight and meaning (lol).

__________________
Meddle ye not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crispy, and taste good with Ketchup!

The girls said they have ipods, but only get to hear the YFZ sermons and their own hymns.


I think the men leaders are afraid that the women will see or hear what is available to the rest of the world.

.

You really need to get your information about the Mormon church from websites other than Anti-Mormon websites, other wise you have no show of credibility. I understand your post is about the YFZ wives, but when you give out information saying it's from the Mormon church, please have a better understanding of what you are talking about first.
First the setting was 1863, and in the same sitting he also said "For their abuse of [the Black African] race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." This is in the SAME discourse. In 1863, there were few, if any, places where whites were free to marry blacks in the United States. President Young is talking about sexual relations outside of marriage.
There is more information about this exact discourse here.
Is interracial marriage a sin?
Please be respectful to all religions and don't post something that is anti-whatever religion. I would never do it to any other religion and I ask the same of everyone here.

Did you follow the link? The exact speech is printed there. Brigham Young said that there will always be slavery. Until a righteous people were on earth, we would always have slavery. He also said the things above.....no black person could obtain the priesthood until the last son of Abel had recieved his priesthood. He also said the mark of Cain was the dark skin of people of color. And that if any person were to mix there blood with the blood of a black person .... "Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the preisthood upon themselves but they entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it."

"I am as much oposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term, it is abused. I am opposed to abuseing that which God has decreed, to take, a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants, but those they serve should use them with all the heart and feeling, as they would use their own children, and their compassion should reach over them, and round about them, and treat them as kindly, and with that humane feeling necessary to be shown to mortall beings of the human species. Under these sercumstances there blessings in life are greater in proportion than those who have to provide the bread and dinner for them" (spelling as it is in the speech).

Read the speech, it does sound like he supported the ban on black people being banned the priesthood and he supported slavery as long as it was done with kindness and care for servants and that is what the Polygamist preach which is what I posted originally.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I didn't think I was being disrespectful of any religion. I just posted what they believe. By posting what Brigham Young taught is not being disrespectful, imho. I didn't make fun of it and I am sorry if you thought I was. I provided a link to back up what I posted. I was not talking about the LDS church. I was speaking of what the current prophet teaches those who are in Colorado City.

I was not being anti Mormon.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I don't think you were overtly or intentionally being disrespectful--however, your post seems to indicate that the Mormon church/LDS also follows the beliefs of Brigham Young.
Now, I don't know if the LDS church does or not. I do not know if the LDS church allows people "of color" in the priesthood--what I do know is the original incarnation of the church that Joseph Smith founded, not only allows non-whites to hold priesthood positions, as well as allowing women to be ministers. Formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), the Community of Christ allows *gasp* women to hold priesthood office/preside over "ceremonies" (marriages, baptism, baby blessings, funeral, etc.)--and non-whites have been allowed longer than women!
And if you are ever in Independence, MO--I highly recommend going to the CofC Temple. It's open to the public, and tours are given free of charge.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Marilyn, what I meant to say is that the Polygamist believe that they are the original LDS and the UT mormons are apostate. They believe that the prophets up to the prophet that caved to the government and outlawed polygamy are true prophets. The prophets from that moment on in the LDS church lost the "keys" to the priesthood and are in an apostate state. The true church according to them are the ones who believe in what the early prophets said that God said about marraige, blacks and the priesthood etc.

As for the LDS',( Utah,) beliefs in past prophets, I believe they did follow Brigham Young and his doctrine. Until 1978, mormon doctrine was the war in heaven, the less than valiant people of color and the denial of the priesthood, therefore temple blessings and interracial marraige was discouraged. By the way, the early prophets practiced polygamy for quite a few years and it is fascinating to read the jounals of these women,. The church's has always encouraged people to keep jounals and such and the fact that this church is a relatively new religion and therefore, all paperwork can be at our fingertips, it is easy to know and read a lot of information and this is a wonderful thing for anyone who is investigating the church. Anything you want to know about what Brigham Young said is available to view.

The RLDS are those who believed that BY was a fallen prophet and did not recieve thekeys of the priesthood and therefore the Utah mormons are also in apostate state to them. Thanks for the info on Idependence. Do you know if the RLDS church is still growing? I read somewhere that they had basically stopped growing. I do not know if they send out missionaries to convert like the Utah church does.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful of the mormon church at all. If I came off that way, I do apologize. It is fascinating to me. I thought I would offer what I knew about the sect on Oprah and some of their reasons for their mindset. I was not speaking about the Utah mormons. I do not know anyone who is from YFZ but I do know many people who are LDS (Utah) and many who are ex LDS (Utah).

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

They do not send out missionaries like the Mormons. Young men are not required to serve 2 years as a missionary. As to whether they are growing, that's a tough call. Some areas are growing while other areas are not.
The RLDS/CofC continues to maintain Graceland University in Iowa(It is a beautiful campus--even when I was there and it was in the middle of a drought). RLDS/CofC has a pretty strong presence outside the US. According to the CofC's website:
"We are an international Christian church with 250,000 members found in more than fifty nations."

Here's a link to information about the temple:Visit Community of Christ International Headquarters
It is exceptionally beautiful inside. If you lie down in the floor of the sanctuary and look up, it's like a shell. It is breathtaking.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Ok, I am not very computer savy, could you post a link to :it is fascinating to read the jounals of these women"? I really like learning about different people and religions. When I was growing up different religion from ours was never even discussed, Thanks

I understand that you didn't mean to be disrespectful of Mormons and I did follow the link, but I think it was offered in a skewed way. The website in the link is an anti Mormon site, so next time just find a neutral source.

Journals of Early Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
This is a page with lots of different journals of early members of the church.
Plural Marriage / Polygamy

There is also a book called "In Sacred Loneliness" which is journals written by the many wives of Joseph Smith compiled by Todd Compton, a church historian. It is fascinating.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

What would constitute a neutral source? Not being snarky, but I haven't found one that is considered neutral unless it is from LDS.com by others who are mormon. I saw that the site I posted may have been in a website that you consider anti Mormon but the page I linked to and copied was just a copy of the exact speech given by Brigham Young. There was no addition nor anything taken away from it.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Thanks usnamom, I read a little of it and bookmarked so I could go back and read it closer, interesting info there.

Ok serious question, please don't take offense. I was talking to my daughter about this thread and she said something about Mormon's wearing sacred underwear. I'd never heard anything like that before. What's the story behind that? We're Catholic and people have lots of wacky misconceptions about the Catholic church. I was just wondering if that's true and what the meaning behind it is if it is.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Temple garment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Ahhhh. . .interesting. Thank you.

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I do not know if the Polygamist wear garments but the Utah Mormons who pay their tithing to the church, do not hang around anti church people, are chaste in word and thought and answer yes to some other questions asked by their particular bishop or stake president can go to the temple and "take out their endowments". With these endowments or if they get married in the temple, they can buy underwear that goes under their bra and functions as a reminder of the oaths and commitments they made while in the temple. They also believe that the underwear provides some protection against evil in the world. There are many faith promoting stories about someone who is in an accident and is burned everywhere except where they were wearing their garments. It is believed that the first garments worn were only worn by those men who were polygamist as a way to tell who was and wasn't under the "covenant". These were one piece garments from the neck to the wrist and ankle. Through the years, they have evolved to two piece garments with markings in three places that have special meaning correlating to the temple ceremony. They look like a t shirt and knee length boxer shorts for both women and men. In speaking of modesty, they follow that you may wear something as long as your garments don't show. No shoulders, no midriff and no shorts shorter than knee length. (One of my long time friends MIL told us that her mother kept her garments protecting her at all times. Never took them off even to bathe or do the deed. She kept one foot in the garment as she took it off and put the other ones on and the same with sex. She and her husband kept them on. They had 11 children so somehow they made it work.)

Garments are very sacred to Mormons and I do not want to seem like I am being disrespectful of them.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/