This is a different type of discrimination -- discrimination against whites.

FOXNews.com - Supreme Court to Hear White Firefighters' Case on Affirmative Action - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

Seems as though the firefighters had to take an exam for promotions. The only ones to score high enough for the promotions were white firefighters and one hispanic. I believe it said they scored twice as high as the black firefighters (or something like that). So there were going to be 15 promotions, all going to white firefighters. Because the city feared a discrimination lawsuit based on promoting all whites and no blacks, the city disbanded and ignored the exams and promoted blacks also. So the white firefighters filed a lawsuit, which they've now had to take all the way to the Supreme Court!!!

The white firefighters should have been promoted --- they made the best scores. This lawsuit shouldn't even had to have been filed!

Welcome to the real world. This happens all over the place - from college admissions processes to hiring practices and apparently to firefighter promotions. It's no longer the best person for the job....and it's a shame.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

It's so sad that we are not judged based on skill. How can it be discrimination if you didn't pass the exam? I hate when things are so political....

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

It's not really political. It has a name; it's called reverse discrimination. Blacks went through this for centuries. If we undid affirmative action, I guarantee that they would go through it again.

It's not a perfect world.

I'm not as upset by this case as by the the little girl who was strip searched because she supposedly had an Advil. Looks like the SCOTUS will be ruling in favor of the school.

It could be discrimination because the test might be written in a form of English that was not the form used by some of the test-takers, or the questions/scenarios were biased towards the Caucasian male, or something along those lines......

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Blacks went through reverse discrimination for centuries? How's that?

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

My understanding of the case was that it was alleged to be prescription strength ibuprofen. Prescription strength is 2 times the recommended dosage.

Now, while I believe the school could have handled it better and in a different way--I don't think that anything would have been said had they been looking for Oxycontin or if they had actually found the prescription med on the child.
As a parent, I would only request that the school contact me and allow me to be present when any strip search is performed.

And really? I think the biggest reason the girl (who is 19 now) was traumatized by the strip search has more to do with how her mother reacted as opposed to the strip search it's self.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Agreed. Strip searching a child with no notice to the parents on the flimsiest excuse? No prior history of trouble, and strictly on the word of another child? Ridiculous. But given the current makeup of the court, likely to be rubberstamped as ok. I can't wait for some of those people to get off the court.

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Reading is Fundamental.

This discrimination issue is interesting.

Obama Breaks Promises to Black Farmers - AOL Black Voices

I don't care if they thought she had crack on her, if they wanted a strip search, they should have called the parents or law enforcement.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

I love Dahlia Lithwick. The Supreme Court takes failing to get it to a new level in a strip-search case. - By Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine She does, however, say that students are screwed. They will shortly have no right to privacy or even modesty.

I would have been extremely traumatized if that had happened to me,

Blacks have never been a majority and therefore have not been subjected to reverse discrimination. They have just been subject to discrimination.

I agree the parent(s) should have been called.

but blowing it aside as she "just" had Advil is a misrepresentation of the facts.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

She didn't have it though and Advil is exactly what they "thought" she had. They suspected her of having 400 mg pills, which is the recommended dose (same as 2 OTC pills) But whether it was 200, 400, or 800 mgs, it's still an incredibly stupid reason to strip search a child who had never been in any trouble before.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

The Constitution and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 say employers may not discriminate against persons because of their race. However, employers also have been told they may not use hiring or promotional standards -- including tests -- that have a "disparate impact" on minorities.

The court adopted this rule in a 1971 case. Congress added it to federal law in 1991. The new provision said employers may not use a job standard that has a "disparate impact on the basis of race" unless it is "required by business necessity." For example, it is not certain that the knowledge tested by the firefighter's exam was required to be lieutenant in the fire department.

In New Haven, the city's lawyers cited this "disparate impact" rule as their reason for scrapping the test scores in 2004.

"I understand their disappointment," Victor Bolden, the city's corporation counsel, said in an interview, referring to the white firefighters. "But this test had an adverse impact [on minorities]. The city did the right thing. It made a measured response in a difficult circumstance. Someone was going to be disappointed, and we could be sued either way."

Payton stressed that New Haven had not rejected the white firefighters because of their race, but rather rejected the use of the written exam as the sole determinant of who would be promoted. "New Haven ought to be able to go back to the drawing board," he said, to devise a better and fairer promotion system.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I agree completely!! I don't think anybody at a school should be conducting strip searches. If they have suspicion, call the police. The police will have to show probable cause.

I think it's pretty nuts that they can strip search this girl at school, but we as teachers are warned not to hug our students for fear of being accused of something inappropriate.

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Just trying to understand this..... Rx strength ibuprofen?? Are talking about an 800mg pill??? what is the difference between that, and taking 4 of the over-the-counter 200mg pills??

I'm with the other poster who said it doesn't matter if it's crack cocaine, you better call me or law enforcement FIRST!!! Not to mention, how incredibly stupid to risk a sexual assault charge.

As for the firemen, good for them. I say give the job to the most qualified person. Since when did the color of your skin qualify you for anything?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

jujubee, are those your own words or did you cut and paste that? If so... please credit the source.

If they had to take an exam for the higher position, then it should hold true to that, and the most qualified advances. I don't believe a person should get a promotion based on race or gender. If that's the case, what is the need for the exam?

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

Prescription strength is 400 mg. Exactly the same as taking 4 of the OTC.

I agree with you about the strip search. Apparently Ginsburg is the only one on the Supreme Court who sees it this way.

400mg would be 2 OTC pills, which is the normal OTC dosage. Not that it's really important though.

I still can't imagine why they think someone would want to smuggle Advil in their underwear.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

The strip search issue if this would have been one of my dd's I would have been livid behond words. It reminds me of a personal issue with my younger dd Caitlin when she was in kindergarten, she hated to wear pants or leggins or socks or plain anything on her legs only dresses. Now mind you this was ok when the weather was warm, however as it was starting to get colder out. It did become a issue and every morning we went through the same routine of trying to make a 5 year old understand you must wear something its too cold.. Needless to say long story short, she came home from school one day and told me a lady took me in her office and talked to me and asked me questions. I was like what without me or my dh there.I was again so upset that the school physcologist sp... felt the need to take Caitlin into her office and talk to her without a parent being present. NO way no how never ever... Thank god one day a few weeks later she Caitlin decided she wanted to wear my knee hi stockings which when pulled up to her shorts under she dress did the trick.. We laugh now but she did get both of us upset for something.... Peace. Sorry op to have gone off topic and personally no one should ever be feel or suffer from discrimination on any level...Catherine

The adverse disparity is that the black firefighters were promoted due to skin color. Pure and simple. I would guess when they applied for the job, accepted, and worked there, they KNEW how promotion was handled. I would guess the promotion system, via testing, wasn't put in place the week before the test!

Part of the other post about the ineffectivenss of government relates to this also. Hire someone because of skin color / entitlement / quota and you are not necessarily getting the best person suited for the position. Affirmative action has placed many, many people in jobs they are simply not qualified for.

The county social services office here is staffed by virtually all blacks. Several of them are incompetent. It's a county office and yet there are hardly any whites working there, I find that "disparity" interesting.

Prescription strength is 800 mg per pill, OTC is 200mg per pill. OTC recommended dosage is 400 mg every 6-8 hours.
I'm just saying....

I do think the situation could have been handled better.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The firefighters have a point - why choose someone who couldn't pass an exam and ignore those who did. What if a minority firefighter scored highest and his score was thrown out, and he wasn't allowed to have the job? That wouldn't be fair either.

And this is OT but prescription ibuprofen is available in more than one dosage - so people saying 400mg and 800mg are both correct. Not that it matters regarding the subject of that suit..

No one was promoted. Don't look now, but your prejudice is showing.

Why would you guess that any of the employees knew how promotions were handled prior to being employed?

When I'm hired into a position at a new place of employment, they've never given me details about how promotions are granted.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

Prescription doses of IB come in 400, 600, and 800mgs. It was 400mg pills she was accused of having (which she did not) Again not that it really matters....


Even if they had found them on her (and they didn't) and even if the were 800mg pills(and they weren't), the school would still be completely in the wrong.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Hmmmm.........this thread was hijacked somehow.

Back to the subject. It's a shame that the best candidates for any position are not honored for fear of discrimination and racism. I hope something positive come from this ruling.


I remember in one of my college classes (a few yrs back) one student gave a speech on affirmative action. He was a volunteer firefighter and experienced affirmative action personally. He said many qualified men are passed up because they needed to hire so many women within the department. I guess his argument was in a given situation, a woman might not have the strength to axe down a door that weighed two to three times her weight. I agree with the point he was trying to establish, even though I do believe in affirmative action.

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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!

Affirmative action needs to favor the minority candidate when all other qualifications are more-or-less equal, or can close the skill gap in a very short time on the job. Hiring or advancing an underqualified candidate to meet a diversity requirement is not doing anyone a favor and it often causes more problems than it solves for the particular minority group.

IMHO, of course.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I agree!








^ Hey, look....I made an on topic post!

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

In reference to your first sentence, the OP posted this:
"
Seems as though the firefighters had to take an exam for promotions. The only ones to score high enough for the promotions were white firefighters and one hispanic. I believe it said they scored twice as high as the black firefighters (or something like that). So there were going to be 15 promotions, all going to white firefighters. Because the city feared a discrimination lawsuit based on promoting all whites and no blacks, the city disbanded and ignored the exams and promoted blacks also. So the white firefighters filed a lawsuit, which they've now had to take all the way to the Supreme Court!!!"

I didn't read the full link, but, what the OP posted says that blacks were also promoted. Where did it say no one was promoted?

In reference to your last sentence, how do you go about getting a promotion then? Do you mean you don't know the criteria for getting a promotion?? I'm not sure I'm following your statement.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

My apologies. I didn't read the OPs text, just the link and other links. I'd be curious to know if the OP made up that line or can verify it.

When I've interviewed for a job, they've never told me the particulars of what I'll have to do to get a promotion. Essentially, I'm hired into a job at the level I'm currently qualified to perform. So, no, I don't know the criteria for getting a promotion before, or as soon as I'm hired. I don't expect to get a promotion within a short time frame. Tests aren't used to determine who is qualified for a promotion, annual reviews are.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

UPDATED:

Supreme Court appears divided on claims of reverse discrimination in firefighters' lawsuit
By MARK SHERMAN | Associated Press | Apr 22, 09 1:19 PM CDT in Politics


The Supreme Court appeared divided Wednesday over whether a Connecticut city's decision to scrap a promotion exam for firefighters because too few minorities passed violates the civil rights of top-scoring white applicants.

As is often the case with closely fought social issues at the court, Justice Anthony Kennedy appeared to hold the key to the outcome. He seemed concerned that New Haven, Conn., scuttled the test after it learned that no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be promoted based on the results.

"It looked at the results and classified successful and unsuccessful applicants by race," said Kennedy, who often frowns on racial classifications, yet is not as opposed to drawing distinctions on the basis of race as his more conservative colleagues.

But where Kennedy saw shades of gray, the rest of the court seemed to view the case clearly in terms of black and white.

The court's conservative bloc seemed inclined to side with the white firefighters. "You had some applicants who were winners and their promotion was set aside," Justice Antonin Scalia said.

The liberals indicated that New Haven did nothing wrong by throwing out the test over concerns that it had a "disparate impact" on minorities in violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

A ruling against the city, Justice David Souter said, could leave employers in a "damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation." Souter's comment reflected the concern of business interests who said in a court filing that a decision in favor of the white firefighters would place employers in an untenable position of having to choose whether to face lawsuits from disgruntled white or minority workers.

The firefighters' dispute is one of two major civil rights cases on the court's calendar in the next two weeks. The other deals with a key provision of the Voting Rights Act.

Underlying both cases are broader questions about racial progress and the ongoing need for legal protections from discrimination for minorities, especially after the election of President Barack Obama.

The discrimination lawsuit brought by 20 white firefighters _ one also is Hispanic _ challenges New Haven's decision to throw out promotion exams for lieutenants and captains in its fire department.

The plaintiffs, in their dark blue dress uniforms, posed for photographs Wednesday morning in front of the court.

The city argues that if it had gone ahead with the promotions based on the test results, it would have risked a lawsuit claiming that the exams had a "disparate impact" on minorities in violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

The federal appeals court in New York upheld a lower court ruling dismissing the lawsuit.

The case has drawn input from interest groups across the ideological spectrum. The Obama administration has weighed in mainly on the city's side, although it recommends allowing the lawsuit to proceed on a limited basis.

The consolidated cases are Ricci v. DeStefano, 07-1428, and Ricci v. DeStefano, 08-328.

I didn't read the link, probalby should have. Perhaps I should have said that those who EARNED the promotions should have received them within the established structure. I am trying to say that there was a system in place, it isn't like it was designed the week before for any segment of the workforce to fail or purposefully do less than others.

I am not prejudiced, I hire and fire and I do it based on ability, license, experience, etc for the specific position. I won't give you a list, but it has been diverse. I personally have experienced discrimination being a woman working in what has been typically a man's job. I don't care to spread that around.

I guessed because I think not all fire departments are the same. However, I have read in our paper about promotions, testing, etc. When I mentioned prior to being employed, I followed that with accepted and worked there, that it was or became known what was required. Any of them had the option of quitting.

dl

For those who care about the actual law and not what faux news or talk radio wants you to know. Please refer to the EEOC’s Four-Fifths rule. The issue is about adverse impact from the city's point of view. The city believed, after seeing the results, the test may have been flawed based upon the outcome. I do wonder about the test - considering the results.

Also, as I understand the case, no one in particular was promoted or not. Until the court issue is resolved, I believe the city is rotating people through the position. Which, IMHO, is probably a terrific resolution because I have known people who do great on tests that are horrible managers and people, who can't spell worth a darn, who have excellent managerial skills. So, the city gets a look-see at all the candidates. (minus the million or so to defend itself) The city is in a difficult situation. I am interested to read the decision.

Here is a link to the SCOTUS oral arguments if anyone cares - http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_a...ts/07-1428.pdf

Here's my problem. If my house is burning down, and it comes to saving the lives of my family, I would want the highly most qualified ppl coming to save me and my kids. Guess what, in all the flame and fury, with all the smoke and ashes, any firefighter that comes my way will look like a black man. Will I refuse help-hell no. But would I prefer the best of the best while my house is burning down? Yes....And if there is no difference in salary, why should anyone be hired for this specific job, just to keep the demographics clean? I don't care what the skin color is-who can save me the fastest????

My DH is a firefighter, a lieutenant as well. In his department, there is a test and also an interview with the Fire Dept Board, a group of politically connected individuals. Historically, the fire dept always hired by the test scores, and the interviews were just a formality. Everyone agreed that was the fair way to do it; the firefighters are a band of brothers who live and work together. No one wanted any hard feelings. The year that my DH made lieutenant, there were two openings. DH was the highest score, and was appointed. The next appointee was Hispanic, and they 'jumped' two or three other (white) guys with higher scores to appoint him. There was alot of bad blood over that one. The board said that the one candidate fared exceptionally well on the iterview, and that is how they were able to avoid suits.
I have to say, though, that I believe the highest score on the test does not always mean the best candidate. There are personality and character issues that are not taken into account when you are promoting an individual to lead as well as live and work with a diverse group of men (there are no women firefighters active here). That is the EQ factor- the emotional IQ. Some of the lieutenants that have been promoted are not good at the relationships that must be in place among these men. It really is a rare situation these guys are in, and a good leader is needed to keep the work and emotional flow in tune. The EQ factor has nothing to do with race as well.
My DH's department serves a city with a very high hispanic population. Very few of the officers are a minority- I think two, tops. The guy that was promoted with my DH has since quit.

One solution to the problem of a lack of minority officers in the department is one that my husband has done informally. All privates, minority and other, should be mentored by their officers. They should be encouraged to strive for promotion, have study times together etc. My DH has two guys, both hispanic, very smart and capable and of great character that he thinks will make great lieutenants. So he is trying to facilitate that for them by giving advice, encouragement, and the benefit of his experience. But he can't study the books and take the test for them- they need to find that motivation for themselves. The process is taking longer than he would have hope for them The books you need to study for the tests are also quite expensive and cost prohibitive for some of the guys with families.. I think the city should provide them as they are getting the benefit of better trained men.