As a leader in the Roman Catholic Church Pope Benedict has long been concerned about homosexual behavior, taking the stance that there are different kinds of homosexuals. In 1975 he issued the "Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics" which delineated a difference between transitory and pathological homosexuality. However, even in denouncing homosexual behavior, he called for empathy and compassion from followers. He denounced violence of speech and action against homosexuals in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons."

Despite his call for compassion, he has not stepped down from his stance that homosexuality is a moral evil. He stated that the inclination toward homosexuality is not necessarily a sin, it can be considered a "tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." He continued, "A person engaging in homosexual behavior therefore acts immorally," because he feels that sex is only good if framed in the stance of being for procreation between a married man and woman.

Pope Benedict is not the only Pope or Vatican member that has denounced homosexuality. In 1961 the Vatican discouraged church officials against ordination of homosexuals, because they were "afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty." Currently the Roman Catholic church has strict limitations on allowing homosexuals to become members of the clergy, and it also continues to fight the legal recognition of homosexual couples.

Does this help explain my views? It's all about "love the sinner, but hate the sin". You love them, you don't condone their behavior. I didn't start this thread to argue the Catholic faith so let's not go there. People are questioning my beliefs so here is the church position of which I try humbly to follow. And let's see if certain people can refrain from name calling in this thread!!!

I understand why some members of the KKK feel the way they do, too. Explaining certain beliefs doesn't make them any more palatable.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

We get that you're abiding by your church's teachings, I think the problem is the way you present your ideas at times. Some on the other side seem to have this same problem.

__________________
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Why you believe what you believe is not in question. It's how you express those beliefs in an offensive manner.

I *understand* your rationale, I don't agree with you, but I do understand why you believe what you believe.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

There is a common theme in your posts and how it affects people. It has nothing to do with what you believe but how you post what you believe. This has been beaten to death and either you are being obtuse or you just don't give a damn. If you have to defend every post you make, perhaps there is a problem.

And besides that, not everyone believes the Pope is the final word so why would they believe what he professes. I happen to revere the Pope but I also believe that I can be a good Catholic and not follow the Pope in this matter. Many religious leaders thought that black and white people shouldn't marry not too long ago. You could have used that as a reason for racist views.

Do you see where this is going?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Well at least I don't name call like you have done to me over and over again. Maybe some of us on here find your manner offensive. I believe that you usually know darn well what I mean and what I am trying to get across but enjoy picking my posts apart. And no, I am not a victim, just pointing out your own communication problems on here.

But, Marilyn has never needed to cry "victim" and "everyone is picking on me". Besides we are talking about you here. Just because someone else might do it, doesn't make it right. You claim to be such a good Christian, but the evidence isn't there.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

There are consistently just a few posters that have trouble with my posting style. That is no reason to jump all over my posts. If you remotely understand what my points are then there is no reason for you to point out ways to make my posts more pc. If you don't like how I post then ignore it. Good luck with picking and choosing what beliefs you want to follow. I'm sure you have 2000 years of Catholic research in your back pocket. Maybe the Vatican should access your vast knowledge since you feel you do not have to follow the Pope if YOU don't agree with him.

Are you comparing the KKK with the Catholic Church? Do you have any idea how many people you have honestly offended with your pithy comment?

For the record, I do not and never will understand the hate that members of the KKK feel towards other humans.

I think in your zeal to insult the poster, you have thoughtlessly insulted a whole religion.

Maybe it's because many times Marilyn is doing the bullying. Like I've said so many times on here I don't call people names but Marilyn certainly has as have many others, possibly you. If you don't agree with someone a mature person does not resort to name calling. It's pretty simple folks.

truble LOVES to insult anyone and everyone. She must have a sad life to be so filled with anger and hate at posters on here.

oh good grief no! I'm hell on wheels a lot of time, and understand that sometimes (I'm working on it though) that I can be very abrasive and very brutal w/ my assessment of things. And while it has served me well at times, I realize that by allowing myself to ALWAYS be abrasive, confrontational or offensive I was just allowing more negativity in my life and making more work than necessary.
I don't need to go looking for trouble, it usually finds me all by it's little lonesome!

I really don't think that KTS grasps just how offensive and abrasive she is. I bet her friends are all use to it and just blow it off as "Kathy being Kathy".

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

oh lord Kathy! Do you realize that you just called me a bully???
Do you not see the hypocrisy?

I honestly believe you don't. I believe you are just one of those people who doesn't get the whole concept of do unto others and how it applies to you--not just the people around you.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The Bible says lots of different things. There are different versions of the same stories. And, it says lots of things that aren't true. For instance, the Bible clearly states that the mustard seed is the smallest seed; it isn't.

There is no doubt in my mind that people are born either gay or straight. That's just the way that they were made by God. We have had homosexuality throughout history. They have been stigmatized at times and at times considered perfectly normal.

Me, I'm convinced that they're normal, deserve love and marriage if they so choose.

I said "maybe". I didn't call you a bully per say but you admit to an abrasive and brutal style. So is abrasive and brutal ok? Could no one be offended by an abrasive and brutal style???? Do you realize what YOU are saying?? And you most certainly name call. So name calling, brutal and abrasive styling is ok but what I say is off the wall? Funny if it wasn't so sad.....

Bullying is the act of intentionally causing harm to others, through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation.
I would put name calling in verbal harassment so maybe I SHOULD call you a bully.

So that's your churches view on homosexual behavior. That's why there's separation between church and state. Your church doesn't have to host any guy marriages.

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

wow I do have alot to post here. Again for starters since my late Brother Sonny was gay and did indeed at one point in his life live with someone who also had the same name which is Peter that is Sonny's real name. Sonny of course was a nickname from my mom. Now they choose back in 1987 to have a union as a couple done right in their apartment with some close family and friends. They also wore gold plain thin bands on their left ring finger. In all our eyes they were married. All I know and feel is this, God created us all and loves us all. While I am Catholic I do not live by the exact words in the Bible . Kathy again I understand you are entitled to your views, but in the other post that was closed the subject of blood came up. Honestly if your a true educated person you will know only the true ways to transmit HIV> or full blown aids. My brother was around all of us and all his nieces and nephews, there was never a concern ever. I do not want to continue to post againist you personally, as I know I also get very involved when I am confronted with a issue that bothers me. Kathy may I ask if one of your children told you that they were gay, how would you react, can you kindly answer that for me. In the end for me always is my childrens happiness and health and well being. If they are happy I am happy, but sadly there are alot of children who face losing their entire family when they decide to come out of the closet, which I hate that term. You should never ever be embrassed and feel the need to hide. Okay ending here. Catherine

You, dear, do not get it. I have my beliefs and you have yours, but I have never had people telling me that the way I post makes me look racist, homophobic, naive, crazy, abrasive, judgemental, a liar. Simply because only a few people have trouble with your posting "style" and post about it does not mean that there aren't others who believe you have a posting style that leads people to believe you are racist, homophobic, ignorant, crazy etc.

Do you have 2000 years of Catholic research in your back pocket? This is one of those sentences that makes you look crazy.

The subject again, is that the way you post makes you look like these things, and therefore you must be since you do nothing to change the way you come across. When you are confronted and you are backed into a corner, either your supporter comes to your rescue or you change the subject or you claim victim, or you say it was a test, or you say it was a joke or any number of things that are silly.

You are right you have the right to post any way you want....I have the right to think and post that you come across as a racist and a homophobe amongst other things. I also have the right to comment on it when I see it.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

You don't have to call people names to insult them. You do so by some of your posts.....which is just as bad.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Kathy I have been here long enough now to know alot of ladies here, I too have had some trouble with Marilynk , and she with me. However I have decided to realize she a out spoken person me on the other hand I know I will fully admit some posts I start I do get my panties in a ruffle, I am a very emotionally person and sometimes I have other issues on my mind and they interfere with me not being able to sometimes not make the correct choices when I post. However I know I am a good person as you are >From what I have gathered Marilynk does have alot of background on alot of important issues. As she said I firmly believe we both agree on alot of subjects, but perhaps her being so outward and me being so sensitive has caused some issues with us which I truly like to work on. Sorry so sorry to get off topic, but again Kathy do you truly feel God created us all and loves us all no matter what. He is suppossed to be a very forgiving God.So straight , gay or bisexual we all bleed and we all breathe and live and die. Some just choose to live their lives different. Again with no one getting hurt honestly hon Kathy was is the real concern, do you really feel that if your sons were to hang out with a gay person something evil would happen. Again I am picking just seriously trying to understand. As far as Marilynk I think its some of your comments on the subject she is finding hard to understand, Peace. Catherine

I just love (not) the way things get taken and spun a certain way. Did I EVER say anything evil would happen if my sons hung out with a gay person???? Noooooo. It's just a matter of condoning the lifestyle. I'm not sure why certain people on here don't get that. Like I said my kids are all "adults" now but if I had little kids I would be very distressed with the way things are going in society and in the schools. That is my right to feel that way and to say it on here. You say no one is getting hurt living the gay lifestyle. I disagree. I think it loosens the moral fabric of a society as do other things-multiple divorces, abortion, affairs, etc... Sin is sin. But once again, you don't hate the SINNER, just the sin. Why can't people on here distinguish that?

And hopefully someone won't sue a church someday claiming discrimination....It very well could happen.

And once again, I'm not changing to suit a few of you on here. You know who you are. You are the one stating you don't follow all the rules of the Church hence that makes you sound like you are above the rules of the church. Now you are upset about a sentence I made. Now who's defensive?

I am getting the vibe of "don't hate Kathy but hate the things she posts"????

You said in an earlier post that you keep your kids away from gay people, didn't you? "I wouldn't want my kids around practicing gays because it would be condoning their way of life and that is against my beliefs. Just like I wouldn't be bringing them to a house where a not-divorced person is living in sin with someone. Sin is sin and I would prefer my children not be around it. You can love the sinner but not be around them. That's not un-Christian."

No, you never said that something evil would happen to your kids, but do you know what inference means?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Oh, that explains all the hysteria around gay marriage. It's a fear of law suits - not all this religious mumbo jumbo!

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I have never intentionally tried to cause harm to others. I'm sorry that you can't discern the difference between debate and "bullying".

And the difference between you and I is: I realize that I have my faults, and I admit that I have a "problem" with being too abrasive or being too "brutal" in my expressing my opinions. I am trying to work on my faults. You can't or won't change for no one, but yet you seem to think that we who disagree with you should just let some of the things you say that are offensive, rude, homophobic, racist, etc., we should just ignore those? That's hypocritical. Sorry, but it is.

You get so upset over the name calling. I have found that the things I get most defensive about are the things that I'm insecure about. I suspect that at some level you wonder if your views/opinions are as rooted in the "truth" as you espouse. I suspect that you might be afraid that if you acknowledge you are offensive and at times rude, you will be admitting that you are wrong.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

WOW.....is this a case where agreeing to disagree and/or ignoring might help out?

On the other hand, the parallel to another ongoing "situation" is uncanny.

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Really, so name calling (and wasn't it you with the "c" word that you later apologized for) and labeling people isn't meant to cause intentional harm? Calling someone the "c" word is a compliment, a non-issue or what? I don't understand how you can say labeling people, name calling, etc... is a neural thing to do. I find you offensive but I'm not out there calling you all the names you have called me. Why is it ok for you to label me or others but stating my views warrants judgments from people? You can't do BOTH.

Wow. . just wow!

__________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

So name calling and labeling, like you have exhibited on here, is debating huh? Very interesting spin. I think the discernment issue might be in your backyard.

Kathy did you say or believe that being Gay is a sin???. Sorry hon again your choice, but to me a sin, is murder, cheating on your spouse, stealing, perhaps lying, but please please do not say being Gay is a sin. Did God's only Son Jesus die for us on the cross and the decent onto Heaven so that our sins, were to be forgiven. Also were not his sins the 10 commentments and being Gay was not one of them.. Sorry to disagree but your beliefs while are yours, believing they Gay people are a sin, does not cut it for me. Perhaps you could find a better way to describe a Gay person, certainly not a sinner.Catherine

Kathy you said that being Gay causes trouble do you not think that man and women who are married to each other have the same problems and more perhaps because they are legally married, whether gay, straight or bi, we all have the same problems we are all human and all capable of having serious issues in our relationships....Catherine ,I agree we must agree to disagree..

Catherine, we are ALL sinners. I don't believe "being gay" is a sin but acting out on it is. That's what the Catholic church doctrine teaches and that's what I believe. I am not judging any one individual but I can judge behavior as right or wrong according to my church doctrine. I think most of you on here are unable to separate the person from the act.

I'm sorry that you find me offensive.
I did call you a vulgar name. I did apologize. At the time I was in a particularly bad place personally, and I behaved badly by taking my anger and frustration out on you.
Stating that certain comments or things appear racist, or homophobic is not necessarily labeling the person, but the comments.

But you know what? I'm tired and I've already had a difficult day at work. I'm done with this back and forth. You are not open to any sort of discussion. It's all about deflection, blame and playing the victim card.
Again, for what I have done that you find me offensive I apologize.
I'm sure you don't believe me, and that's fine. I forgive you. I forgive you for all the times that your comments or statements have been offensive. I forgive you for all the times that you have made me upset.
I am letting it go.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Okay Kathy I am done as well. I know your a nice person and so the end result is too agree to disagree and move on. A sincere peace. Catherine

Well you didn't answer the question but that's ok.
I'm not playing the victim card.
If you are sorry that I find you offensive then maybe you can curtail the labeling and name calling in the future. I will believe you if you stick by your word.
I forgive everyone and anyone on here who has called me names, etc.. also I even say a few prayers for the folks on here sometimes. However, when challenged in the future, I will defend my right to free speech without being called names, etc...

Just because the Catholic Church says it doesn't make it so and I am a Catholic saying this. I don't agree with everything the church says just like I don't agree with everything the US Govt says and that doesn't make me less Catholic or less American.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Honestly, the Catholic things is open to discussion but I don't want to go there...

PS Sorry you had a bad day at work. That always stinks!

Awesome. Forgiveness. I also forgive you for what I think are racist and homophobic posts that offend me. But I will only forgive you when you can say you won't do it again and try and post with more compassion and sensitivity.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

No I think most of us understand the concept of loving someone but not loving their actions. I think the confusion (for me anyway) really comes down to your statement about not wanting your kids (if they were younger) to be around gays and then on the other hand talking about all the gays in your life and how tolerant you are of them. It's very confusing. To make things more clear am going to spell out two scenarios for what you may have meant by saying you "don't want your kids around gays", pick one.

A) You don't want your children around gays at all i.e. You would not allow your children to be in the home of anyone gay. You would not attend family function with your children if you knew a gay family member would be there. You would not allow your children to tag-along to your gay lawyer or hairdressing appointment.If you saw someone you knew was gay at a store you would steer your children in another direction. You want your kids completely away from gays.

B) You don't want your children around gays where your children would witness them actively living a homosexual lifestyle. i.e. Spending the night at a gay couples house. Attending a gay wedding ceremony. Attending a gay pride event. Referring to the gay partner of a family member as "Aunt or Uncle or whatever" Basically anything that would show acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle.

You have to choose one of these, you can't make up a third option or the confusion will continue, this thread will go nowhere, computers will melt and other bad stuff.

__________________
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

__________________
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

A. would be totally ridiculous, homophobic and sinful.
B. PERFECT example!
Where were you about 30 posts ago! lol lol lol Thanks!!!

I'm not asking you for forgiveness.

But as a Christian, I must forgive you for being what you are whether you ask or not.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Well cool then!

I SOOOO agree with you. I also am a Catholic and have no issue whatsoever with Gays or gay marriage. I say let them be married and happy!!

Jen

__________________
Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!

I didn't plan to dive into this one but I have five free minutes, so why not?

I wanted to speak to Kathy's "not being around a gay person" comment that I guess was made in the Joe the Plumber thread (which I have not read).

I understand why she feels that way.

Forget homosexuality for a minute. Keep the fact that she believes it to be a forbidden-by-God activity in the back of your mind, though, when I offer up this analogy.

Have you ever been in a situation where you rationalized someone's bad behavior and decided the behavior wasn't really *that* bad because ... well, you *liked* the person who did it? They were nice. And because you didn't want to think of *them* as bad, your mental defenses about how *wrong* whatever it was they were guilty of was started to fall. You changed your perception of the *wrongness* because after all, that person was nice and if it was WRONG, they wouldn't do it, right?

I think of my grandmother, who had some pretty strict beliefs about some things until her favorite son started doing them. Because she didn't want to conceive of *him* as bad, she started making excuses for the things he did and rationalizing his behavior and then ultimately deciding that what he was doing wasn't REALLY wrong. Uh, yeah, Grandmother. It's wrong. He is embezzling and your relationship is preventing you from acknowledging how sinful that is. He is a thief!

When you're dealing with young, impressionable children, if there is a behavior you are convicted in your heart is wrong, if you allow them to get close to someone who practices and embraces that behavior you'll have a more difficult time convincing them of the wrongness of the activity. It changes where they see the bar being set.

If it really matters to you that your child NOT see that activity as "no big deal", then it's probably best that you not allow it to become commonplace for them to witness it 24/7, especially in a positive light.

Drunk teenagers are probably funny to impressionable 5th graders, so I wouldn't let my 5th grader experience that hilarity EVER if I wanted to make sure they didn't start to see that behavior as "just another way teens have fun." You'd want them, as children, to keep a distance from it so they wouldn't develop a positive view of it.

So back to the topic at hand. If someone considers homosexual behavior as *wrong*, they won't want their kids experiencing it in a way that seems warm and loving. It's not that they think the homosexual will DO anything to their child.... it's that they are wanting to preserve the values they are imparting without any outside influence derailing it.

Okay. Back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

As always, thank you wowitsdark!

"we are ALL sinners. I don't believe "being gay" is a sin but acting out on it is"

Just out of curiosity...my son has never acted on it so does this make him any "less" gay?

Wowitsdark, I get the analogy and see the point. I don't want my kids around the relatives that have proven themselves to be drunks time and time again. But that is an act that they perpetuate in front of people. Gays don't have sex in front of you so what part is offensive?

What I'm left wondering after all this is that while this is a public forum and people are able to debate the topic, what is the point? Am I to change my beliefs because you posted the churches stand on the issue? This topic has come up many times and it turns into mudslinging everytime. For those of you that continually start threads that pertain to homosexuality you need to give it a rest. There will always be gays whether you believe it wrong or not. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day my son is still gay and I cant make him "like" girls. When you were younger I am guessing you didn't wake up one morning to discover you liked the opposite sex. It was just always there. You always knew.

__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us"
---Ralph Waldo Emerson---

kgbmom, I can't speak for anyone's faith or beliefs but my own.

I do believe there is an inborn component to same-sex attraction. One of my dearest childhood friends was always very feminine... from before we went to kindergarten, he was playing with Barbies and not footballs. He "came out" when he went off to college. We hadn't kept up for several years, and sadly, he committed suicide several months ago. His younger brother - who was also very feminine - came out at about the same time he had, and it is so... I can't explain what I'm trying to say very well here. The group of facebook friends that I saw supporting the brother was his gay community. I have not spent significant time with him for many year, and never in his own current element (he lives in a large metropolatin area and has, interestingly, a stereotypically 'gay' job in an art-related field)... and it just seemed ... I can't describe what I'm trying to say, and don't want to say something inadvertantly that I don't mean, so I'll quit trying - lol

Both of them were like brothers to me as a child. I never suspected that they were gay. I didn't know of any gay people in my life and it would have thrown me for a loop. Certainly, looking back, I see what was there in front of me all along... but at the time I didn't get it. These were guys who were close enough that they were in my wedding.

I loved them like family. I am in touch with the remaining brother through Facebook and we communicate often.

And I still believe that homosexual sex is a forbidden activity. I think there are lots of things that people have inborn desires for that they are supposed to deny. Is it a test of faith? I have no clue...I just know that from a religious perspective, I can find nothing, Biblically, that condones homosexual sex... only that condemns it.

It makes me very sad for people like my friends. I can't imagine what that is like. But it doesn't change the fact that I can't reconcile the *activity* of homosexual sex with Biblical approval.... only disapproval.

It hasn't stopped my from grieving with my friend over the loss of his brother. The whole thing is just very sad to me, and full of conflicting emotions.

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss.

Kathy, it's odd - I really don't think of it as my loss. I am very sad for their family. It's pretty heart-breaking for all of them. But the life he came to live, half a continent away, also in a major metropolitan area and in a stereotypically gay vocation, seems a million miles away from the friend I was so close to for 18 years. The photos on Facebook of him in a sea of obviously gay men on obviously 'gay day' type events... it was like seeing a stranger. He dated girls in high school and... it was just a side of him I never knew.

It's still sad though. Oops, I hit an icon button and I don't know where it's going to show up! lol

I completely understand why people can't understand it and find it hard to accept. Like I said I believe people are entitled to their opinions, I no more expect you or anyone else to change your mind on the subject. That being said it is hard to be in my position and have people constantly trying to show me that their way is the only way to think. I live in Utah, it happens often.
I'm sad for your friend. That is why I support my son and give him the family support system. I dont want him to have to go in search of support because I failed to offer it to him. I don't want him looking for happiness in seedy places because he has no other options.
Thank you for conveying your feelings without being disrespectful of my position. It proves it is possible to do that without the nasty grams.lol

__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us"
---Ralph Waldo Emerson---

kgbmom, it's interesting to me... and I won't do a good job of explaining the range of thoughts, occurrences, and emotions that are tied up in this package (I'm afraid I'll leave something out and give an impression I'm not trying to give), but I'll try a little....

The family they were from was extremely, extremely Catholic. Lots of Catholic items around the house.... pictures of Mary, crucifixes, rosary beads... there was no mistaking that it was a Catholic home from the moment you pulled up out front.

The dad had a very 'manly' job. He was a rancher.

I only spoke to my friend once after he came out about twenty years ago. I wasn't avoiding him - we were simply never "back home" at the same time, and he had a very jet-setting lifestyle going to places in the world that I couldn't find on a map if my life depended on it. He called me several years ago when I experienced the death of a parent. I had been with his mother when his father was in the hospital and had a terrible setback that preceded his death and he called me partly because he had appreciated me being there with his mother (I was in college in the city where his father was in the hospital at that time) and he said he just wanted to let me know he was sorry for the death I was grieving and he said he felt like he owed me because I had been there for his family when they suffered the same thing.

I attend a church of the same faith in which I was raised, and in my faith, we do believe homosexual sex to be against the laws of God. I say "we"... but we are actually a non-denominational church and therefore there is no 'convention' or "Pope" or anyone over us in a hierarchical way - each church, from town to town, generally has the same beliefs, but because we consider the Bible our source and not the interpretation a specific human hands down to the masses, you'll find people who have more liberal - and more conservative - beliefs about many issues.

Anyway... both my friend and his brother attended church with me often. They did mass on Saturday night and often went to church with me on Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings. Kids from our church would often get together to sing praise and worship songs, and both boys always came whenever they could. Yes, we were a social circle, but they loved the songs. It was more than just 'being with friends.'

Since the boys came out and their father died, their mother - who was really the driving force in their Catholicism - has changed to a more evangelical religion. That religion does not condone homosexual sex, either, but it does hold a tenant that says that regardless of any sins you might commit, if you have *ever* been 'saved' then you are always saved. Even if you become a murderer, they would say that you are 'covered' because of the conversion you experienced at one time.

So essentially, the mom sacrificed something she had always held to be 'truth' because she needed to believe her kids were okay with God. I don't have any commentary about any of that... I'm just sharing that it happened.

The brother recently told me on Facebook that he wished he could go back to those times when things were so simple, when they came to church activities with us and sat around and sang praise and worship songs with us. I found that... interesting, I guess I would say... because I know he knows that our faith system does not condone homosexual behavior.

And yet, despite the fact that from what I see of him on Facebook, he has found acceptance through his current circle of people, he actually yearns for a time when he had not yet come out of the closet and was in a culture and atmosphere that was not readily accepting of homosexuality.

I really don't know what to make of any of that. I don't know what demons haunted my friend that led him to commit suicide. I just know that it all makes me very sad.

You think it's pithy?

Thank you. Although I suspect you don't know what pithy means.

But no, I was not comparing the Catholic Church to the KKK. I was comparing the attempt by KTS to justify or rationalize her behavior as being based on a belief system set down by an organized group. Members of the KKK justify their behavior on their belief system. Some Catholics justify their behavior towards gays based on a portion of the belief system of the Church as set down by the Pope and his predecessors. I was not comparing the actual beliefs of the KKK to the actual beliefs of the Catholic Church -- just the attempt to justify behavior.


Nor I the hatred some members of the Catholic church, and other religions, show towards certain other human beings as well.

I'm sorry you took it as an insult. I think it was an apt comparison of how certain groups justify their atrocious behavior towards certain other groups. I think the official stance of the Catholic church towards gays is atrocious. You don't have to agree, nor do I much care if you don't. I find the statements of this Pope, a mere human being, to be highly offensive. Others take his statements as being divinely inspired (as I understand it, anyway.)

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