The other post was locked but I just want to clarify something. The Catholic Church does indeed have female altar servers.

Anyone else who is interested in finding out the Catholic Church's stance on any number of issues would be better served doing some research (newadvent.com, catholic.org to name a few) rather than bullying people on a coupon message board. You can find the Catechism online as well.

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Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

and*gasp* I have actually witnessed females from the Catholic Church administer Communium.....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

They are extraordinary ministers of holy communion. And they can be women. And girls can serve on the altar.

But women cannot be priests, and priests cannot be married. A woman or girl can serve as a subordinate, but the priest is the spiritual father.

And to address here the point in another thread about Catholic "divorce," an annulment in the Catholic Church is not the same as a divorce. A divorce recognizes that the marriage has been broken, and it's dissolved. An annulment signifies that the marriage never existed at all. The point of time for purposes of determining whether a marriage can be annulled is the point in time that the marriage was entered. So, a marriage can be annulled in the Catholic faith if one person to the marriage never intended to be faithful. It is not supposed to be annulled simply because one of the participants to the sacrament later strayed, despite intending to be faithful when the marriage began.

It used to be extremely difficult to get an annulment. Apparently, it has become easier. In my experience, anyway, an annulment can be obtained a lot faster if you are connected than if you aren't.

And if we are going to debate the positions about the Catholic Church, I'd be more interested in hearing persons' thoughts about the brouhaha over Notre Dame inviting Obama as a speaker. Personally, I find it ridiculous.

I imagine the poster who thought alter servers couldn't be girls is thinking of decades ago.

I don't remember a time when Catholic churches didn't allow it, but she may be older than me.

I agree with yngsto6 - lots of misinformation to be gleened here by some nonpracticing and/or non-Catholic people who have such strong opinions regarding what are either obsolete or nonexistent practices.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Nicely put. I was wondering why the op on the other thread didn't just PM me since the title of the thread was Question for Kathytheshopper! lol Maybe there was another motive?

My annulment didn't take that long, was quite easy and I was not in the least bit "connected". If there are good reasons for an annulment maybe the process is faster.
As far as Obama at Notre Dame-it's disgusting. How's that? A Jewish school probably wouldn't give an honorary degree to a president who was a Holocaust denier. Same type of ideology.

I think the outrage is silly.

Let's start with the "this is the same as a Holocaust denier." I shut down there. Whether we are Jew or Christian, all of us would be appalled at a Holocaust denier, right?

Or maybe not. Because the Pope pardoned a bishop who repeatedly and unrepentantly has denied that the Holocaust happened. The bishop said:

Minister criticises Pope for pardoning Holocaust denial bishop - Telegraph

And lets remember that former presidents, also holding views very much diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Church, have been similarly honored:


Phoenix Liberal Examiner: With Obama invite, Notre Dame doesn't 'understand what it means to be Catholic'

As a cradle Catholic, I think that this outrage is hypocritcal.

Just as a point of interest, is your problem that Obama is speaking or that he is getting an honorary degree?

He could possibly be accepted as the pres speaking at the U but the honorary degree is ridiculous. I believe most of the bishops are against it as are many devout Catholics. The death penalty, supposed torture, etc.. are just a drop in the bucket compared to a President who supports abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy ( and we've had more than 50 MILLION since 1973), embryonic stem cell research, etc... No President in history has been as pro-abortion as Obama and no other issue is as relevant and devastating as that one. And let's not even go there-50 million abortions tops all.

George W. Bush got an honorary degree from Notre Dame. President Bush to address Notre Dame graduates at Commencement // News // Office of News and Information // University of Notre Dame

He supported the War in Iraq. He caused the War in Iraq. He advocated the death penalty.

The Pope condemned the war. A Rift Over Iraq Between President and Pope - US News and World Report

The Church condemns the death penalty. USCCB - (SDWP) - Statements on the Death Penalty By the Holy Father

But there was no outcry over GWB.

Is abortion and stem cell research the divining rod? Why do the faithful embrace those who support the war in Iraq and who advocate for the death penalty, but similarly condemn those who are pro-choice or who support stem cell research?

The inconsistency boggles me. If it is merely sheer numbers of deaths, assuming each abortion is the equivalent of a lost life, like you suggest saying that there are 50 million abortions since 1973, that seems very inconsistent with my view of Catholic beliefs. I'm not a practicing Catholic, but I was very rigorously raised in the Church. And the one thing that I was taught was that numbers don't count. Doctrine does. If you believe in the teachings of the church, the advocate of the death penalty is as wrong as the person who supports abortion.

So where was the outcry over GWB?

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [68]

Father Corapi would say that the abortion/stem cell topics are considered non-negotiables. Other topics, like war, depend on the circumstances. The death penalty had a purpose in earlier times, not so much now since we have prisons to keep dangerous people away from the public. And don't forget, death penalty people have trials, lawyers, appeals, etc... the unborn have nothing in their defense.
And I would have to say that abortion/embryonic stem cell research IS the divining rod. Check out Father Pavones website for more info on the church and abortion.
The view are not inconsistent at all by the way.

From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.[74]
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[75]


2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."[82]
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."[83]
"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.
Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"[84] which are unique and unrepeatable.

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

So as far as the war goes who knows. We don't know for sure what was in G. Bush's heart but God does. The war did meet some of the requirements listed but probably not all of them. I don't want to argue the war but to me it's not as severe as abortion.

With regard to the quote on the death penalty, the availability of prisons in the US negates any thought that the death penalty is supportable as the "only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor." It isn't. Under Catholic doctrine, the death penalty in the US is unsupportable.

Pope John Paul II said as much:

And with regard to the War in Iraq, both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict condemned the Iraq War. Pope John Paul II calls War a Defeat for Humanity: Neoconsevative Iraq Just War Theories Rejected

Even assuming that some wars are just and some aren't, this one was condemned as inhumane by the papacy.

Also, John Corapi may see shades of gray in everything other than abortion, but he doesn't speak for the Pope. Corapi may have a very good market on street level Catholic evangelism, despite his less than savory background, but he doesn't speak for or override the Pope. And I see nothing in what the Pope has said and the positions of the Church that would allow anyone to say that it is OK to support the warmonger and the death penalty proponent.

I personally don't think, in light of what the Pope has said, that an adherent Catholic can support the Iraq War or the death penalty in the US. Nor do I see anything in what the Pope has said that would allow one to say, "Well, this is a worse offense, so I'll let it slide that GWB believes in the war and the death penalty, while condemning Obama. "

If you believe in papal infallibility, which is the cornerstone of the Catholic faith, you have to condemn it all. And if you are picking and choosing, you are a cafeteria Catholic. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that, but you should own up to it. In my book, the Pope speaks for the Catholic faith. John Corapi does not.

So, I still say that the condemnation of Obama is inconsistent when viewed in light of the previous embracement of GWB.

Yes, I agree, the death penalty in the US in this day and age is probably not needed.
Did Notre Dame honor GWB? Was he given an honorary degree? If not then what's your argument? You can't argue the war with Bush against Obama and abortion concerning Notre Dame can you? And I love Father Corapi!!!

The Most Reverend Timothy A. Dolan, Archbishop of New York, explained during a recent interview that his opposition to Notre Dame’s slated honor for President Obama on May 17 is due to the President’s support for the “intrinsic evil” of abortion. He also contrasted abortion to other serious concerns, like the Iraq war and the death penalty, which “are open to some discussion and are not intrinsically evil.”

“Archbishop Dolan’s clear teaching should help Americans understand that there is nothing political about the bishops’ protest of Notre Dame’s action,” said Patrick Reilly, president of The Cardinal Newman Society. “This is not primarily about President Obama or partisan politics, but about a prominent Catholic institution publicly betraying fundamental Catholic values.”

New York Post reporter Dan Mangan’s interview with Archbishop Timothy Dolan from Wednesday, April 22, was posted online. The reporter asked Archbishop Dolan why he is publicly opposed to Notre Dame honoring President Obama at its commencement on May 17, but did not publicly oppose the same honor to President George W. Bush in 2001, given Bush’s positions on the Iraq war and the death penalty.

“There’s a big difference,” Archbishop Dolan said. “There are some issues where the Church has weighed in, that one must be very sensitive to the morality of some issues, but they’re not intrinsically evil. An intrinsic evil means that something is always and everywhere wrong.”

The Church’s teaching on the death penalty and war, explained Archbishop Dolan, allow for such activities in extreme cases. So while Archbishop Dolan said he was uncomfortable with President Bush’s positions, he “would have to give him the benefit of the doubt to say that those two issues are open to some discussion and are not intrinsically evil. In the Catholic mindset… that would not apply to abortion.”

To dannyboy and Kathytheshopper, I just wanted to commend you on handling this debate so well! It is actually interesting to read both of your perspectives in true debate style.


I agree with you that it's strange when 'the faithful' would advocate in favor of the death penalty, but oppose abortion and stem cell research.

But as a Catholic, we are not asked to support the war (but we are asked to support the troops). And we do stand in opposition to capital punishment as a church. Sister Helen Prejean (the real life Catholic nun who is played by Susan Sarandon in "Dead Man Walking") has headed a long-standing effort to abolish capital punishment.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Wow - this post has digressed, huh? Anyway, since it was directed at me - sorry about my ignorance regarding your faith.

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If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

I have a very hard time understanding the ins and outs of Catholicism. Divorce is bad, but annulments are easy to come by? Why? How is it that a marriage never existed, but the children are legitimate? How is abortion worse than the death penalty? Why is the practice of homosexuality worse than the practice of pedophilia? If the goal is to hate the sin, love the sinner, why is Bush embraced and Obama condemned?

And how on earth was anyone being bullied? Are questions about Catholicism that difficult to answer?

This is not directed at any one person, just a list of some of what makes Catholicism so confusing to this non-Catholic.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I was going to stay out of this one, but your post is EXACTLY what I was thinking. I have always questioned those things to people I know and I have never been given an answer that is acceptable.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

Don't feel bad I'm Catholic and sometimes it's just as confusing to me. But I am more of a person that goes with my own gut on things. I'm for gay marriage, I feel it's a womans choice if she wants to have an abortion, and I use birth control and don't hide that fact from anyone at my church either. The annulment thing is pretty out there to me too. I mean if you don't think divorce is right then how do you say ok I got an annulment so that's all better. Crazy.

And my church never had girls as altar servers until the last 6 yrs ago or so. I know when my oldest was in grade school girls were NOT allowed to be servers. Another one of those weird things.

Just my own take on it!!
Jen

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Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!

Add limbo to the list. Never understood it and now it seems like someone told me it was, what?, disenfranchised? fired, dissolved? Where did it go and what happened to all the people there? And why can you be a priest if you're married first?

Annulments are not necessarily easy to come by. Divorce and annulment are two different things. I think it's explained in some of the items I copied. For an annulment we are addressing the Sacrament of Marriage and whether or not it was valid. Not all marriages can be annuled. A divorce is a civil matter. The abortion/death penalty is explained on here. Maybe you should re-read it. Abortion is intrinsicly (sp) evil. It's always taking the life of the innocent. Who said the practice of homosexuality is worse than pedophilla? They are both grave sins and are both wrong. Even though the church handled the pedophilla cases horribly they weren't condoning it. Bush is embraced because of his anit stem-cell, anti abortion, pro hetero marriage stances. Abortion tops war in the instrinsic evil dept. Obama is proudly pro-choice.

I'm quite clear that divorce and annulment are different. It's a nice construct to get around declaring children of a marriage illegitimate, isn't it?

I don't know where you believe the abortion/death penalty is explained "here." I gather that abortion is intrinsically evil, but the death penalty is ok sometimes?

The Catholic church, when it protected pedophiles and deliberately gave them access to more children, but condemned homosexuals at every opportunity. The Catholic church protected evil-doers and gave them the ability to do more evil. What more is needed to consider the Church to have "condoned" that behavior? I can't fathom any one in their right mind taking that course.

So promoting war and the death penalty was ok as long as he did those other things right, I guess.

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Reading is Fundamental.

Like I said....never an acceptable answer. There is no way to explain it.

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"When you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

John Lennon

I hope you are not taking Holy Communion! Seriously. Just like Nancy Pelosi is not supposed to. Once again the annulment is concerning the Sacrament of Marriage. A divorce is a civil matter. You can have a civil divorce but still be considered married in the Catholic Church. A Sacrament and a civil matter are two different things. My first marriage was in a Catholic church. We divorced after six miserable years. I later married a Jew (lol) in a civil service. About 5 years into that marriage I went through the annulment process, which took about a year, and got my first marriage annuled. I will not go into those reasons, they are private. But they were so obvious and valid to the marriage tribunal that I had no problems. I did not get my second marriage blessed in the Catholic Church because by then we were having enough issues I didn't think I could truly commit sacramentally. So, for all the years I was married to my second husband I was not in a valid marriage and therefore living in sin. And I did not receive Holy Communion while married either. My second marriage ended in 2002 after 12 years (one month shy of 13 years). I slowly got back into my faith, had a really good priest, the best Catholic family to get involved with and I understand it all now. But it took some time and lots of soul searching. Somehow my kids turned out fine! I'm not going to brag but I think alot of it is becasue they have a mom who has always been there for them whereas they can't say the same for their dads. They KNOW without a doubt that I would give my life for them. Their dads have been in their lives but they are not what I have been for them. So now I am back receiving the Sacraments, not dating (yuc) and am happier than I ever have been, even in my childhood. That's what totally commiting yourself to God does. And totally commiting to the Catholic Church. And surprise, it all makes sense if you look at it in it's entirety! Afterall it's been around for 2000 years! I spend most of my life "following my gut" and rationalizing that God loves me so I should make myself happy, etc... but that's not really going to make you happy in your soul. I have zero nagging doubts and feel 100% whole. So to those of you that think I haven't been there and done that, I most certainly have!! I think alot of you think I am some old croney sitting here being judgmental but that's not the case. Most of it I have lived myself but I know the right way now.

I absolutely go to Communion every single weekend. I have never had gay sex, I myself never had an abortion and big deal if I use birth control, the church sure isn't going to pay for any children I would have.I personally feel people have the right to THEIR own decisions about what they do with their life and I am NOT going to judge anyone for that or EVER force ANY of my beliefs on them. I have NEVER been away from the Catholic church. I have gone to church ALL my life. In grade school I went 3 times a week besides Sunday mass. I do not Rationalize that God loves me so I can do whatever makes me happy. If using BC sends me to hell then I don't know what to say. I guess that would mean the God I was always taught was a loving forgiving God is not who I thought he was. I will tell you this Being a Catholic does not make me any better then anyone else and surely doesn't allow me to be judgemental on anyone else's life or choices in their life. It's some of the judgemental people that force their beliefs on others that really make me question if I want to be associated with them or not. And it's really sad that religion is used by people to dump on people without the same beliefs as others. sad

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Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!

I think your response is a tad bit too defensive. I'm not judging you. I told my story. As far as I know if you are using birth control, etc...you aren't supposed to go to Holy Communion. I could be wrong. I don't have time to research it right now because I'm heading to Mass at the college student center! Pointing out something that contradicts Church teaching is not being judgmental at all.

Thank you! It is refreshing to discuss something like adults! I wish all topics, espeically politics, would be like this!

Like it was stated, abortion is intrinsicly (sp) evil whereas there were/are times when war and the death penalty are necessary.
Yes, the chuch didn't know what to do with pedophille priests. Now we have much more knowledge and understanding of this issue and I think it's dealt with properly now. No one condones what was done or how it was handled. But things were alot more hidden let's say in the 50's and 60's. Heck in the late 60's my neighbor got pregnant and was sent away to help a sick relative! I didn't figure that out for quite awhile either. Times have changed.
The Catholic Church has made mistakes. We are made up of earthly human beings and there are going to be mistakes. If you were a compulsive gambler, for instance, and you didn't spend so much money that you put your family in danger, but it was something you did more than you should and spent more than you should but were otherwise a great husband, father and employee, etc... would you want your one bad habit looked at as the whole of you? I kind of think that way about the church-some people have a tendancy to take one bad thing, or even a couple, an overlook the totality of 2000 years of the Catholic Church. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Don't judge Peter because of Judas. Etc....

Oh dear, that is wonderful for you. I can see where your attitude would bring people to the word, what with your "non" judgemental telling someone you hope they aren't taking the sacrament. Presumptuous. When you were not living the faith enough to qualify as a good Catholic, if someone had told you so in so many words, do you think you would be a model Catholic now? Or was the Priest and the family that sponsored you kind, non judgemental and lead by example?

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I am not into the reilgious debate except for reading each person's beliefs. You could have made that statement in any thread and it's subjective.

What is acceptable to you is not to someone else. You are saying that until someone explains it in a manner that is acceptable (satisfactory) to YOU - and I don't think that will happen.

To stay on subject, I had friends years go whose marriage was annulled (sp?) due to him finding out "their" son, age 10, wasn't his. He was ready to move on with a second marriage, but continued to pay child support and see him so the son didn't think the father he had known was abandoning him.....just that it didn't work out between his "parents".

dl

Gary Zukav : How To Stop Judging Others
================================================
Gary Zukav is a Harvard graduate, Vietnam Veteran, Green Beret, recovering person, spiritual wayfarer, and a favorite guest on Oprah. Gary Zukav is the author of The Dancing Wu Li Masters, The Seat of the Soul and most recently Soul Stories
================================================== ===

According to Gary, when we judge others, it is because we are seeing the world the way we want to see it — not the way it is. When you judge, it can affect your body physically and cause you pain. Judging others is a result of your own feelings of inferiority. Rather than experiencing and addressing the pain of your feelings, it's easier to judge others.

In a moment of judgment, you are experiencing the feeling of powerlessness. Gary says most people don't take the time to become aware of that feeling of powerlessness, instead we lash out to keep from feeling the pain. According to Gary, when you judge, you're trying to change another person, and in turn, trying to make yourself feel more powerful.

To get past the judging, Gary says you must make the effort to see what you're actually feeling, instead of acting out. To get to the heart of your judging, Gary explains, you must do some inner work, and have the determination to look at yourself with clarity. You must go deep inside yourself. Until you find the root of this painful experience and heal it, it will continue to recur.

Another effective way to challenge your urge to judge, according to Gary, is to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Once you begin to see through their eyes, your perception of them will change. As you do this more often, you will gain strength and power, which Gary says are some of the keys to a more joyful life.

Gary explains that it's not imperative that you stop judging. However, if you don't stop, you will simply continue to create the same consequences in your life. Judging does not bring you joy. It brings pain and blocks you from giving the gifts you were born to give. Gary says that if you do decide to challenge the judging, you will create consequences that are more nourishing, more fruitful, and more empowering for you.

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Good questions! Actually my friend with the 9 kids used to scold me all the time!!! She would say she just wants me to go to Heaven and the way I was heading was not a good path. So yes, she was really tough on me, but I needed that toughness to break through to my soul. She would say "why are you doing such and such when you know deep down that it's wrong? or "why would go check out a Protestant church when you know you have what you need in the Catholic church?". I'm just grateful she never gave up on me. It took about 5 years to really get through to me. I still thank her for sticking it out with me. And like I've said many times, I get it now. When I met her she had six kids and I used to think why would you want anymore? Then I got it and was so excited with her subsequent pregnancies. She had a certain joy about her that I wanted desperately. I hope this helps.

You can "judge" a behavior and not "judge" a person. That's what I am trying to do and explain, as a conservative Catholic. A self proclaimed Catholic using artificial means of contraception is at odds with church teaching. That's not judging the person. That's stating a fact. Someone can read judgment into that if they are feeling defensive, looking for an argument,etc...but a statement like that is not judging a person.

Actually, yes. it makes me wonder why you don't have and allow the same joy and light that she had for you for others. Why people here would say that sometimes your delivery and posts would make someone question whether you were a Christian much less one who has the light and joy inside to bring people to the light.

There is a difference in saying "why are you doing that when you know it is wrong?"

vs

"I hope you aren't taking the sacrament!"

One shows care about someone and one shows judgement and condemnation. I will let you guess which is which.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Kathy,

I'm really glad you're in such a good place. You did a great job in this post (in particular) just explaining what your faith means to *you.* Thanks for telling a really personal inspirational story!

If there are any attacks and judgements against you (as I anticipate - why stop now, right?) then you'll know it's not your issue at all. It's THEIRS.

Anyone who has further need to trap you in your words, or confusion about the Catholic faith should probably, at this point, either do what the op said and take the research project off the coupon message board, or go to a priest for answers, don't you think?

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Really now, she used to say that to me too-you aren't going to communion are you? and the priest in the confessional always asks me if I am confessing a grave sin if I took communion during that time. So it all goes together. If you met me you might see my joy. I'm sorry if you find my words judgmental and/or offensive but lots of others don't. Maybe you can just try to understand my words better and know that I am sincerely trying to convey Church doctrine, etc...

Thank you so much! Yes, if people are truly interested they can certainly read the Catechism of the Catholic church as it is online. They can find all the stuff I've posted. Thanks!

Honestly, usnamom - was there any response Kathy could have given that would have caused you to say "Thanks for sharing!"

Judge, judge, judge....twist, twist, twist.

You've done more judging on this thread than you probably realize. Take a look. And I don't think your problem is with Kathy. Look a little closer to home...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I'm not Catholic and never will be, but I do understand the different in being judgmental, and wanting others who are profess to be of the same faith family to acknowledge and comply with the doctrine that quite literally defines the faith.

Say you were on a ball team. You could wear the t-shirts to school and wear the uniforms to the games. You could know all the cheers and the names of the other players.

But when it comes game time, if a player isn't all that interested in complying with the rules the refs are there to enforce or running the plays the coach has been saying are their team's plays... and if a player says, "Look, I have read the rule book but I don't agree that just being ON the line constitutes 'out of bounds.' I think it makes more sense that your whole body would have to be outside the line for it to count. Furthermore, if you just tripped and fell and didn't INTEND to go out, I don't think a ref is going to hold that against you!"

Ultimately, it's the job of the ref to make the calls, but the coach is there to teach and to guide, and the other players who are supposed to be working alongside you may have something to say about your thoughts on 'if it's not my fault I fell out of bounds the ref will be understanding, and the coach is wrong if he is preaching otherwise!"

Is it 'judging' a teammate to let them know they are incorrect?

Is a coach ever justified from using his best judgment and removing a player from the team or not allowing them to suit up -even if they profess loyalty to the team - because the coach knows that he is ultimately responsible to the school and the basketball conference for providing a playing experience that is respectful and compliant of the rules of the sport?

I'm off to do some scrapbooking so I won't be replying for awhile!

See? I don't get this mentality.
I don't understand thinking that one religion is all things to all people.
And sometimes you have to experience other religions to realize that one particular religion is right for you.

Conversely, I don't understand those who attend a particular church, but don't agree w/ most of that religions major beliefs. Sure, you can probably overlook not ordaining women (for example) but if you disagree with a lot of the beliefs or don't follow the "rules"---then are you really a true believer in that religion?

I guess that is why I'm not a huge fan of organized religion...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I am not judging anyone, I am using her words and her actions from her posts to fit together with this news at how she came to the light of Christ. I can appreciate how she has turned her life around and I also know that others lives can be turned around and it isnt through being rude or sarcastic or telling someone that if they are not living like she is they are not considered a good Catholic. I am curious in that the tactics that someone who she obviously loved and admired brought her back to her true faith which gives her so much joy with what soiunds like kindness and gentleness. I just was saying that I didn't see it much in her post. I am not trying to say that I am telling all how I now live the great Catholic life and she is and has been. She is right (which is okay by me) but I am pointing out that her delivery is not one (and I know that the reason so many people say it is thus) that would bring people closer and curious about the light that she has. I would think it would show.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

ITA.

While many here seem to disagree with Kathy, she *is* correct, I believe, in her assertions about what a Catholic *is*.

If someone lives their life contrary to those edicts, and their mouths profess loyalty to the faith but their lives and beliefs are not aligned with the Catholic faith.... why profess Catholicism? It is what it is.

That's how I feel, too. I don't understand why Catholics think that they can simply pick and choose which parts of Catholicism they will follow

I was Catholic for over 30 years, but finally made the difficult decision that since I could no longer accept many of their beliefs, I left the Cathollic church and found a non-denominational one that is totally based on scripture.

I don't pick and choose. I am completely there! Otherwise a person is a cafeteria Catholic, hence the shopping around of the Protestant churches for one that fits what a person wants it to be. Acutally the Catholic church is scripture based but I'm not about to start that one! lol

I'm not Catholic. I'm a Christian and don't understand about the Catholic faith. It seems to me the Catholics place all their trust and hope in their priest or the Pope instead of Jesus Christ. What I don't understand is what if you go to your priest for forgiveness of your sins but you sin again (which happens to everyone) and you die before you get to your priest again, what happens to you? If you read in Romans, the Pope can't get you into heaven.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." The Bible doesn't say the priest or the Pope are the way. The Bible says to ask Christ to forgive your sins and accept Christ as Saviour -- not the priest or Pope.

I know I'm probably opening a can of worms but I have to tell how I feel. I've been reading this post and couldn't stay quiet any longer.

I've never seen those Catholic rules in the Bible.

In my personal views I am was born and raised a Catholic and I am still am , its the only religion I know from personal experience.As I have stated before while it is my religion, on one hand, I do not agree with all its views and teachings. Again even though this is what I mean it just not make me any lesser of a Catholic follower if you will.Perhaps some may say that I am not a Catholic, but to me and what is important in my life is that I have certain beliefs in the Catholic religion while other ideas I just plain too not agree.Peace. Catherine

That is such an important distinction that I don't believe a lot of people understand. Catholic doctrine doesn't hold scripture to be the 'final word', and most Christian churches do believe it holds all the answers we need this side of heaven. While some denominations do have 'official positions' on issues, there is likely to be more leeway than in the Catholic faith.

I also attend a non-denominational chuch. We would be considered "sola sciptura". Solely scripture. No creed, no ''head office" saying what we are supposed to believe if we belong to our church. While there are basic tenants the vast majority of those in our church agree on - the things that drew most of us to accept this church to begin with - there is room for disageement. This means there often *is* disagreement, often about whether an issue is black, white, or gray.

In the Catholic faith, disagreement with many things simply *isn't* an option if you are to be in good standing with the Catholic church.

While I completely disagree with Catholic theology, I can fully appreciate the requirements the Catholic church places on its members, because apostolic succession is at the heart of much Catholic doctrine, and the expectation is that if one believes God's word is something that is *still* actively being revealed, and that those revelations come through those who are part of ordained church heirarchy, then to deny the accuracy of those edicts, to a Catholic, amounts to a denial that faith and instruction works in the very way that is unique to the Catholic church: The Pope and others have 'direct lines from God". To ignore those statements is to ignore God, according to Catholic doctrine... so I understand when Kathy says you can't be a 'good Catholic' if you turn your back on the very element of the Catholic faith that defines what Catholicism is all about.

What *makes* the Catholic church what it is is the precept that church hierarchy is told by God what constitutes a faithful person. It's non-negotiable, and not judgmental to point out that someone is not living or believing in a way that is consistent with being a 'good Catholic'.

Either you are or you aren't.

Different people respond differently to different methods of communication. Obviously, Kathy responded to 'tough love'. Others might need a touchy-feely conversation. Perhaps this is why the Bible says that a church is a body, and that it takes hands AND feet AND eyes for everything to function as it should. People play different roles, and each is important in it's own way.

Again - I do not hold to Catholic theology. Never have, never will. I don't think Peter was the first Pope. I think Peter was one of the original 12 apostles and as such, he performed miracles and through the Holy Spirit, began the spread of the Gospel first to the Jews and then to the Greeks. I don't believe he was a 'more important' apostle than Andrew, James, John, or any of the others. I do not believe he was speaking literally and singularly of/to Peter when he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church." Yes, 'petre' means "rock". But I think if Chist's intention was to set up an entire earthly hierarchy that we would have evidence of that system in Christ's words. Instead, Christ spoke of how we are to live and how we are to treat one another and how we are to show and share our faith. I think that the Catholic faith places SUCH importance in the system of priests, etc., that if Christ had come to establish *that* system that he would have made the layout of the system ABUNDANTLY clear to us when he came.

But there is no mention, whatsoever, of 'priests' in the context that the Catholic church holds that role today.

Anyway.... didn't intend to go all theologic here. lol. Buttom line: I don't believe Catholic doctrine to be true, but think anyone who claims to BE Catholic needs to fish or cut bait. Either embrace it for what it is or leave, but don't claim it, yet deny the edicts that the Catholic church says you must embrace to be one.

But my understanding is that the Catholic religion does not accept views not aligned with their doctrine. You claiming them doesn't mean they have YOU on THEIR list, kwim?

Madonna can live in England and drink tea, and she can even say she is British... but if she doesn't fulfill their requirements for citizenship because SHE disagees with their governments requirements...then she isn't British.

So if Jesus said to Peter " you are the rock and upon this rock I build my church" what does that mean to a non-Catholic? And what about the text that says "whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you hold bound are held bound"?

Catholics believe in the Bible and sacred tradition. Back in Biblical days lots of things were handed down through tradition because of the lack of written word (ie no newspapers! lol). We don't think priests or the Pope are God, that's for sure. Priests and ministers preach the word of God (at least they are supposed to!). At a Catholic Mass we have three Biblical readings at Mass. We do believe Peter was the first "pope" because of the Upon This Rock text and that through the Holy Spirit there has been a divinely inspired succession.

More info:
Other people wonder how infallibility could exist if some popes disagreed with others. This, too, shows an inaccurate understanding of infallibility, which applies only to solemn, official teachings on faith and morals, not to disciplinary decisions or even to unofficial comments on faith and morals. A pope’s private theological opinions are not infallible, only what he solemnly defines is considered to be infallible teaching.
It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.

Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.

But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is a primary function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

Well, I'm not as schooled as Wowitdark, and I'm sure she explained it better than I can, a lowly cradle Catholic. BUT Catholics believe Catholicism is a living and apostolic faith. We believe that Christ is the churches authority. It's not that we believe that the Pope and the priests are the Way. I think this explains it pretty well:

The New Testament shows that Christ deliberately created his Church to be the vehicle of his continuing mission in the world. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and he lovingly guides it through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ's own authority. The Apostles appointed successors to ensure that the Gospel would continue to be handed on faithfully as "the lasting source of all life for the Church" (Vatican II, "Lumen Gentium" 20; also Catechism #860).

The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ's continuing presence in his Church — "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20).

The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation: "On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy & sacraments). We believe that, because of Christ's continued presence and guarantee, his Church cannot lead people astray with its official teachings (which are distinct from the individual failings and opinions of its members, priests, bishops, and Popes).

The Source of Catholic Church Authority

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

Thanks for the info hambirg!

Sure Kathy, that's a pretty cool site actually. And as far as what was being discussed as too, "Well I'm Catholic, but I take birth control. . .etc" This is what I found (explains it better than I can) and is pretty much what Wowitsdark was getting at.

Conscience is a powerful and remarkable facility that is distinctly human.

Understand that conscience is a judgment of reason. It uses the objective principles of the moral law to judge the morality of acts in specific circumstances. Conscience is not itself the source of the moral law.

This is a common point of misunderstanding. Many who reject Church teaching will say, "I'm just following my conscience." What they usually mean is that they're looking to their conscience as the source of moral principles, which is a serious error.

A fundamental principle of Catholic morality is that you must follow your conscience.

But be careful: there's a strong tendency for all of us to distort the full meaning of that principle! We tend to use it as a giant loophole for doing any old thing that we'd like.

A well-formed conscience will never contradict the objective moral law, as taught by Christ and his Church. (Catechism, 1783-5, 1792, 2039)

A safe way to read this principle is: if your conscience is well-formed, and you are being careful to reason clearly and objectively from true moral principles, then you must follow the reasoned judgment of your conscience about the morality of a specific act. Otherwise, seek reliable guidance in forming your conscience.

Conscience: A Key To Salvation

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"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
- George Orwell Animal Farm

I especially like the "well-formed conscience will never contradict the objective moral law, as taught by Christ and his church". That's very meaningful. Of course the key is "well-formed conscience". I will have to check out that site and bookmark it. Thanks!

At least half of our family is Catholic and often try to drag me to Mass. It makes no sense since most of my beliefs are at odds with the Catholic church (uses birth control, pro-choice, pro-gay rights) whenever I bring this up they're quick to point out that so is about half the church and that "I should still go"

I'll go if someones involved in an activity they want me to attend (like a kid's play or something) but there's just no reason for me to be there otherwise, I'm not going to change the things I believe in, I'll never make a "good Catholic"

My kids go to church at a local Baptist church (not my choice!) We joke that when I was a kid to rebel, I smoke, drank and skipped school, my kids go to church to rebel And not just once a week, they're there at least twice a week or more. They seem to join or be involved in almost every activity there.

Anyway this has been an enjoyable discussion to read, Kathy you've done a good job explaining things. I don't dare ask family members questions about the church, half the time they don't agree and end up arguing amongst themselves, which can spice up a boring Thanksgiving dinner, but generally something I like to avoid.

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Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

You're exactly right, I've never heard it put that way. That really does put it in perspective for me. Thanks. And, yes, I'm absolutely serious.

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Reading is Fundamental.