I think that the loathsome Randall Terry and his equally loathsome "Operation Rescue" are completely responsible for the murder of Tiller. Moreover, since Terry made a career out of harassing Tiller and his staff, he had to have known that Tiller was either ending a bad pregnancy or saving the mother's life. Terry did nothing more than disseminate misinformation and whip up the fringe.

The article at KansasCity is worth reading. There are many, many testimonials in the guest book following his obituary: Guest Book for Dr. George Tiller – Online Guest Book by The News & Observer and Legacy.com.

All of these women were helped by Dr. Tiller: Kansas

Andrew Sullivan at the Atlantic has collected so many stories about late term abortion that he's thinking of publishing them in a book. All of these stories will break your heart. The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Did you know that Tiller referred women facing unwanted pregnancies to couples who wanted to adopt?

OH GOD... here it goes.....

__________________
Be careful what you wish for.....

and by responding you push it to the top (yes, I know that my response did too--however, I don't really care if it stays at the top)

So, if you don't want to keep this post and the subject matter "in the spotlight" not responding is the way to go.

People hear and believe what they want to. Out of 100 Pro-Lifers who read the above links, *maybe* one's mind will be changed. The rest are going to adamantly continue to call the Dr. derogatory and hateful names, and/or think the worst.

Should a Pro-Lifer post something to the contrary, off 100 Pro-choicers who read, *maybe* one will change their mind.

I just find it sad and sickening that anyone could call this doctor some of the names I've seen (yes, even the "great" Bill O'Reilly can be wrong). Those kind of names do nothing but promote hate and venom and divisiveness!

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I'm a pro-lifer, and reading his legacy guestbook did help me understand a little about where he was coming from. It's not my job to condone or condemn though, and I don't see where it makes the pro life cause look any better than the pro choice cause when someone takes another life whether it's a fetus or a full grown man. God is the ultimate judge and jury.. not any one of us.

I personally always considered myself to be prochoice l however after much thought I have decided this if the mothers life is in jeopardy and or if the babies life is in jeopardy and would face a life long life suffering then I think a decision should be made at the earliest possible and terminate the pregnancy. Other then those reasons I have decided that the women carry the baby to term and use adoption as a better outcome. For I truly believe and know there are so many couple who yearn for just one baby to come into their lives. I cannot be a hyprocite and say I am a animal activist and do not kill animals yet let innocent healthy babies die. I am ashamed of myself for even thinking that. I am glad I got that off my chest after reading the entire thread and Kathytheshoppers comments. Thanks Kathy so much. Peace. Catherine

Sorry, Marilyn, but I believe that this guy was -- at best, totally misguided -- and at worst, a truly evil human being.

At least you can see the option that he possibly was misguided (which means that he could have redeeming qualities...). There are LOTS of people who are basically good people, but are just misguided in their efforts.

I didn't know this man personally (nor I'm assuming did you), so I don't know what his "goal" was.

If he was a truly evil person then he will be punished in the afterlife. However, the actions of one person (Dr. Tiller's murderer) did more damage to the Pro-Life "cause". While many pro-lifers are proclaiming how terrible it is that he was murdered, in the next breath they are saying how happy they are that Dr. Tiller is gone and can't go on killing babies.

As I said in an earlier thread: There are literally thousands of babies who die daily from various diseases, and causes--if Pro-Lifers would put the time and energy into saving those children imagine the good that could come of it! I'm just saying...

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

A little OT, and maybe I should start a seperate thread ( and maybe I will.....) but, I'm short on time so here goes. This is exactly how I felt when I read an article about an off duty police officer who was killed by "friendly" fire. The guy was chasing down a man who had broken into his car, and so were clothed officers. The clothed officers didn't know the off duty guy was a cop, and when he turned around with his gun, they shot him and killed him. The article made mention that the off duty officer was black and the clothed officers were white. WHAT does that add to the article??? The only thing I could think of was "oh crap, here we go..... they officers which were white, intentionally killed a black man" is what will be implied

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Allinaugust the above story you mentioned was so sad and I truly hope it does not turn into a racist issue but sadly it most likely will. All I know for sure is that the dead police officer left a young wife with 2 small baby boys . Very sad on all accounts. Peace. Catherine

You could not have read any of the links that I furnished. Tiller was a good man.

I cannot imagine being forced to continue a pregnancy for 3 and half months knowing that there would be no baby at the end or that it would die in unspeakable agony. I could never be that cruel.

Sullivan had a story from a 40 year old newlywed whose parents wanted her to continue with an ectopic pregnancy that would have killed her.

I think that you should start a 2nd thread.

I think you hit the nail on the head!! I was a pro-choicer for many, many years myself. Sent postcards, thought it was none of my business, etc... I was truly misguided. As you all know by now, my heart has since changed and I see how truly wrong abortion is and how wrong I was when I thought it should be legal. Peoples hearts can be changed! That is one reason that you don't murder people you disagree with! Dr. Bernard Nathanson is a perfect example.

As a younger man, he had been strongly pro-choice, and he states that he performed an abortion on a woman who had become pregnant by him.[1] He later gained national attention by then becoming one of the founding members of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, now known as NARAL Pro-Choice America. He worked with Betty Friedan and others for the legalization of abortion in the United States. Their efforts essentially succeeded with the Roe v Wade decision. He was also for a time the director of the Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (CRASH), New York's largest abortion clinic. Nathanson has written that he was responsible for more than 75,000 abortions throughout his pro-choice career.

The development of ultrasound, however, in the 1970s led him to reconsider his views on abortion. He is now a staunch supporter of the pro-life movement. In 1984, he made the documentary The Silent Scream, which showed an abortion from the perspective of ultrasound. His second documentary Eclipse of Reason dealt with late-term abortions. He has also stated that the numbers he once cited for NARAL concerning the number of deaths linked to illegal abortions were "false figures".[2]

He is now a prolife advocate. Had someone murdered him he would not have had his change of heart and been an advocate for the prolife community.

An interesting website with lots of videos with Dr. Tiller speaking.

George Tiller - Revealed !

From the website:
"And I'm afraid the shooting will rob us of the truth itself. Tiller will be transformed from pariah to "martyred saint." We'll hear the unchallenged claim that "Tiller performed late-term abortions only in the gravest of circumstances", when he performed late-term abortions for very trivial reasons. We'll hear how "caring, kind, and gentle" Tiller was toward his patients, when many of Tiller's former patients tell brutal stories that still make me cringe after I've read them dozens of times. We'll hear how "safe" abortion was at Tiller's clinic when the truth brings that to question. Those of us who stand against the violence of abortion and stand against violence aimed at abortionists will be shouted down and impugned and lumped together with the "justifiable homicide" creeps."

So, women get to carry dead babies around until the skin sloughs off? Women get to die from eclampsia? Women get to carry fetuses than cannot live outside the womb? Tiller did not perform elective abortions. They had to have been referred by their doctor. They had to have proof of a defective fetus.

You have based your decision on propoganda.

Before abortion was legal, a lot of women killed themselves.

I think that Tiller was a saint. My God, this site is sensationalistic and pure garbage. It's loaded with ignorance and hate.

Yep. Consider the source.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

Why read any of the links which contain actual accounts from women who underwent late term abortions and the facts surrounding them when you can post utter nonsense like this?

Anything after 23 weeks is considered late term. The very earliest you can do an amnio is at 20 weeks. It takes awhile to get the results.

Do you really think that women wait until they're 7 or months pregnant and decide then, "Well, I'd better go get an abortion!" ? Do you really think anyone is that stupid?

If we women can think that of each other, I don't know if there's much hope for the human race.

Here you go:
In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation

48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

could we have some statistics from this century, please?
20 year old data is not indicative what is going on currently--unless of course you think it supports your position.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Kvmj, I am no expert when it comes to determining the exact time frame when a pregnant women has been told there is something seriously medically wrong with the growing fetus, nor that the moms life is in danger. I did say in my post to terminate the pregnancy as early as possible. I cannot even imagine the thought of a late term termination. On the other hand if all is fine medically for mom and baby I feel that there should be more help avaliable to help the mom make the right decision to carry the baby to full term and give the baby up for adoption to a loving secure home . There are millions of people who would love to adopt . I also know from years past how dangerous it was to many young teenage or unwed moms who became pregnant and who had to resort to going to unsafe dirty people to perform an abortion. I guess I just wish people would act more responsible and use protection and offer it more to our younger generation and not pretend no not my child they are not having sex. So that perhaps there would be lesser unwanted pregancies. In the end all around its truly sad for all concerned and I guess we all will never have all the right answers . Peace. Catherine

The Alan Guttmacher Institute also states:

"Evidence from around the world shows that placing restrictions on abortion to make it harder to obtain has much more to do with making it less safe than making it rarer, " says Susan Cohen, director of government affairs at the Guttmacher Institute. "Yet in the United States, abortion opponents take credit for the mounting state and federal restrictions on abortion, rather than working to reduce unintended pregnancy to begin with."

__________________
If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition, and then admit that we just don't want to do it.

- Stephen Colbert.

You're a smart woman, feel free to find them yourself.

You're response indicates to me that you are either afraid of what you might find should you look yourself, or that you like the position you've taken, these numbers support your position and it's just too much work to look for anything else.

Look, I know that a person is going to believe what the believe, but it does your belief a huge disservice if you are basing it on 20 year old data.

Let's be real clear here: just because a person disagree with you doesn't mean that person is wrong. Especially when the topic is based on opinion: Homosexuality, abortion, etc. I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to argue w/ the statement that sexual molestation of a child is a bad thing.
I honestly don't know if my opinion is correct on things. I can tell you what I know: Had I been required to carry to term when I was 22 y/o I would have either killed myself or gone completely insane. There are things about my decision that not everyone knows--and will never know. It was the absolute right decision at the right time for the right reasons. And I would never, ever want to force a female to be forced to carry to term or birth a child that wasn't wanted. If we, who chose or choose to have an abortion are wrong--we'll be the ones who answer in the afterlife. If you (the general you) have caused signifcant emotional distress with your protesting, poster waving, postulating, etc. at a women's clinic--you will have to answer for that.
I can guarantee this, not one of the protestors have ever been in the exact same situation as the woman entering a clinic for an abortion. You might think you have, but there are so many variables...what gives you the right to tell a woman that she can't make a decision as it pertains to her life?
Not one "pro-lifers" has addressed which is more important and what should be the more immediate focus: 1) children who are born, 2) or embryos/fetuses that haven't?

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Can be done as early as 11 weeks
Prenatal Testing Basics - Amniocentesis (Amnio)

Uh, yes, I did read some of the links you posted. But I also read a lot of other information on him that leads me to believe that he was not, in fact, a "good man" like you believe.

Oh, wait, I just read another one of your posts where you stated "Tiller was a saint" That just boggles my mind. Mother Theresa was a saint; Tiller was an abortionist.

from YOUR link: "the earlier done the higher the risk to the fetus."
Typically, amnio is only done early in the pregnancy if there is significant concern for genetic abnormality. So, while a person can have amnio at 11 weeks, there is substantial risk.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I think there is always a risk. Amino is not always done or offered. Some insurances will not pay for the procedure unless there is a possible problem with the pregnancy or the mother is a certain age (young, or older).

There are tons of links just google ..I was trying to point out that it can be done earlier than 20 weeks. Usually the results take 1 to 2 weeks.

Amniocentesis

"Amniocentesis is usually performed at 15 to 18 weeks gestation, although it can be done as early as 11 or 12 weeks."

First, amniocentesis is only offered to women in high risk groups. Generally, something is found during a well prenatal ultrasound that raises suspicions otherwise. Ultrasounds before around 14-16 weeks are not as reliable as those done earlier. So, the prudent physician waits because subjecting the fetus to amniocentesis unnecessarily is placing it at risk.

Any pregnant woman who is not in a high risk group is placing herself at risk of miscarrage unnecessarily if she chooses this test at all, much less early in the pregnancy. Surely you don't suggest all woman have his procedure and that they have it early? If the idea is to save babies, this certainly isn't the way to go about it.

Second, unless there is a huge suspicion of fetal abnomalilty, a physican is fool for a lawsuit to suggest it be done sooner than 15 weeks, with 16-20 being the norm because the risk of miscarriage is indirectly proportional to the fetal age.

So let me get this straight-in checking for a genetic abnormality it is better to wait longer becuase there is substantial risk to the fetus but if you wait and the tests are positive and you abort it, let's say, in the 22nd week, there isn't substantial risk to the fetus???? Isn't that rather backwards?

To be honest; One could explain it to you like you were a 5 y/o and you still wouldn't get it. Frankly, I deal with your type the majority of the day. Logic isn't a common trait among people these days.

I'm too tired to even begin to formulate a simplistic enough answer that will even begin to explain it to you. I'm going to put my children to bed, finish packing my bag for vacation and go to bed.
I admit it---I'm just not up for an argument. I know when the horse is dead, I see no point in continue flogging it. You have yourself a nice night.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I don't need to spend my time to please you. I looked up some stats, posted them and if you want more info you can look it up yourself. Actually I think the stats were from a pro choice source. Guttmacher Institute.

As I have stated on here many times I feel bad for anyone put in a position of an unwanted pregnancy, etc... Even you Marilynk. I have not walked in your shoes and you have not walked in mine. For all you know, I might have been there, done that myself. I know you believe you would have killed yourself or whatever but you can't be 100% for sure of that. We can speculate all we want. I have said and done things I NEVER thought I would do and earlier in my life would have bet anything that I wouldn't do x,y or z. But then you find yourself in that very position.

All children should be cared for-both living and pre-born. To me that's like saying who should you care more about-the handicapped or the sick elderly? Which life is worth more? Fetuses are human beings. They aren't dogs. This is the United State of America. We, as a country, have the best ability to care for unwanted children. Aren't there extremely long adoption waiting lists? Of course adoption would be extremely difficult but should the unborn child pay the price for the parents mistakes? It all goes back to this-if you have sex there is ALWAYS a chance of pregnancy. Birth control fails. Relationships fall apart. People are poor. There are always going to non-ideal situations for pregnant woman. Having them abort their children is NOT the answer. Do I have a right to say this and feel this way? You bethca. We even have ultrasound now to SEE the tiny human being on there.

What gives me the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body? Well, because when a woman is pregnant it's not just her anymore. There is another life involved. I can't tell a woman not to get a tatoo or 10 ear piercings or to not have sex with 50 different men in a week. That is not my business. But I sure can speak out for an unborn human being. It is our duty as human beings to protect the most vulnerable.

As far as "harrassing" women at clinics, I don't do that. I don't hold signs, I don't talk to the women entering. I don't stare. If I happen to make eye contact I smile. My heart goes out to them. Not one of us feels anything but sympathy for their situtation. We pray for about 15 minutes and leave. If that is intimidating then I think the person who feels intimidated isn't being totally honest with herself.

My response was to "kvmj" quote: "The very earliest you can do an amnio is at 20 weeks."
Just trying to point out that is a false statement.

I am not suggesting women have or not have this procedure.

I'm nervous about posting this, because I try to stay away from morality-based discussions on this board. Morality, to me, is personal in many if not most situations, and I am apprehensive about appearing like I'm trying to impose my beliefs on you. And frankly, on the other side, I don't think that I should have to defend my moral positions, which might be wildly divergent from yours.

Opponents to abortion have a strong morality-based objection, and I don't want to say anything to denigrate that. But I do think that those of you who oppose abortion in all its forms sometimes minimize and demean the truly heartbreaking decisions facing people who elect to terminate pregnancies.

But, my rectitude seems a bit unfair in some ways. Those of you opposing abortion post your morality-based decisionmaking, and I respond. But I never post why I believe what I do.

So, here it is. I'm not looking for a debate. I'm not looking for an argument. Indeed, I'm really apprehensive about posting this at all, because of how personal it is. For those who have been on boards with me in the past, you will know how hard it is for me to share this. I only do because I think this issue is important and requires some transparency.

This is my experience with grappling with abortion and my nephew Kyle.

When the topic of abortion arises, I think of Kyle. When my sister was pregnant with Kyle, she had an ultrasound. It showed bilateral cysts in his brain, and some physical anomalies. My sister went through an ammnio to determine whether he had Trisomy 18, which these symptoms were indicative of.

I lived through this vicariously. It was a truly horrible, and obviously, it was inexpressibly awful for my sister. After my sister's ultrasound for the baby that she had struggled to conceive, she was told that he appeared to have this horrible chromosomal defect, and would never survive outside the womb.

I remember how devastated my sister was. My mother called me at work to tell me about the ultrasound. My mom has only called me at work twice in my life: once was to tell me that my brother was in the hospital with what the doctors thought was an infection in the lining around his heart and the second was to tell me to help my sister because she had just received the news about the bad ultrasound.

I went with my sister for her first doctor's appointment after the ultrasound. Her husband was out of town on business (that sounds bad, but it really was unavoidable), and I was the best next alternative. I remember, in the parking lot of the clinic where my sister's doctor had her offices, my sister telling me about what showed up on the ultrasound that led to the thought that it might be Trisomy 18. One of the elements of the diagnosis was that Kyle's fingers were bent at odd angles on the ultrasound.

I told my sister that that was hereditary, and showed her my little fingers, which are bizarrely skewed. My sister broke down, and dropped to her knees onto the gravel in the parking lot, clutching my little fingers and crying. She was so happy for just one bit of hope to cling to.

Kyle didn't have Trisomy 18. The ammnio resolved that, although it was two long weeks before it did. During that time period, my family faced the issue of termination. As religious as my family is, and it is religious, no one in my family would have questioned my sister's decision, had it gotten to that, to abort. That includes my mother, who is a very mainstream Catholic. Everyone would have thought that this was the only real option.

I think it is easy for people to say, "Well, in that position, I'd do this." It is a hell of a lot harder when you actually face it. My sister never considered abortion as a convenient way out. In my sister's case, it would have been merciful to terminate the pregnancy if it had been Trisomy 18. She could not have coped, the baby would have suffered, and ultimately, the baby would have died.

What perplexes me when people talk about late term abortions is how there is this assumption that the decision is easy. I can't imagine the decision to abort is ever easy, but I know, absolutely know, that it is very, very hard at every stage. I think that it must be far worse at later stages.

My sister faced the issue during the early stages. I really don't comprehend why, when we think of things, if this issue had arisen later, she would be more worthy of condemnation. It was a god awful situation at 12 weeks. If a baby is a baby from conception, why would the choice to abort at 12 weeks be less objectionable than someone facing the same situation choosing to abort at 18 weeks? Or later?

I also will say, without question, that my sister didn't consider abortion as birth control, which seems to be the basic underlying assumption for persons who chastise persons who have abortions. She wanted her baby. But if he had Trisomy 18, he would have had no life without suffering.

The last point is that idea that people who carry the child, who is doomed to die, to full term find comfort in those moments after the child's birth. I'm not going to quibble with their choices, or what they find comfort in. It is a personal decision. But I know Kyle. And knowing Kyle, if I had to choose a situation where he lived only a short period of time, where he suffered, because it brought me comfort, I'd have to reject it. I love him, and I would never ever choose an option that prolonged his suffering because it brought me comfort.

Knowing Kyle, I wouldn't deliver a moment of conscious pain to him. Ever. Ever. Ever.

I'm so sorry to hear about the pain and suffering this brought to your family. It's certainly a horrible situation to be in. I'm not sure these babies suffer that much when born into this world but I'm sure they do suffer in the abortion process. I know the interview I just saw on CNN last week confirmed that it doesn't necessarily bring as much pain as you might think delivering the baby, bonding and letting the baby die a natural death. I don't like the idea of people deciding who is eligible to live and die, etc...
I don't think that many people use abortion as a method of birth control. I do think society is way too "live in the moment and deal with the consequences later" though. Not in your situation but in general. I think this mentality leads to abortion. There is no way that since Roe v Wade 50 million aborted babies were aborted because of health issues, etc... I venture to guess the majority are for convienence-whether because the mother is young, in college, financially not prepared, etc... To me, none of those reasons validate the destruction of human life. It definitely gets dicey when there are profound health issues but IMHO life is life. As life is more and more devalued I fear the day when insurance will not cover handicaps if the fetus could have been aborted, etc.. It could happen and I fear it might.

I think that the loathsome Randall Terry and his

Danny,
I wanted to thank you for sharing your story with us. I too was told my Now 6 yo might have T-18 as well, From week 13(ULTRA SOUND) 18(Weeks Amnio) - week 33 She had a tumor on her brain. The Amino showed high levels nearly triple levels that she would have DS. coupled with the fact with the skull, tumor and the level It was a almost 100% chance she did have T-18 Or at worse T-13. I will never forget that day. When they did my US and the doctor returned into the room with 3 more doctors to explain to be about the ( Lump or odd shape skull and the tumor ) My world went numb, I don't recall much more of what I was told, other than , She would more than likely die at my 8th month or is I went full term she wouldn't live more than 12 hrs after birth. I remember looking at my mom and saying why me ? What did I do ?. I remember thinking I was given a boy with autism and now this with my Lil baby girl. When we left the office that day, I started throwing up in the parking lot. I couldn't think, I couldn't talk about it. My mom didn't know what to do for me ( really there wasn't anything she could have said to-tell the truth ). Since we had a 1 1/2 drive back home she was worried I would have a wreck She called my DH to come to us. But I assured them I would be alright. I recall thinking now what ?? Do I carry the baby and let it play out ?, Do I opt to abort her ??. I struggled for weeks and weeks with each visit to the doctor and them asking me have you decide what to do time if drawing near. I asked at how late could I go before an abortion was out. I was told till my 33 week... God is good ! He was an AWESOME God, at my 33 week check- up and ultra sound,Mind you I had level 2's from my 13 week till now my 33rd week EVERY SINGLE WEEK and week by week nothing had changed, her skull was still deformed and the tumor was still there. But when they did the ultra sound the tech went pale white ! (Knowing this was my last day to give an answer). This girl threw down the wand and I mean she ran out of the room, we could hear her saying Dear God you will never believe this, You will never believe this, it's GONE there's nothing on the baby's brain no tumor, her skull is normal size and shape !. My doctors call my Lil girl the Miracle baby as it was indeed a miracle she has fully recovered. I don't know what caused it other than the hand of God, But I do know for 20 weeks I prayed, I would lay and just look at my stomach getting bigger and bigger Knowing that the baby growing inside of me would have a horrible death and how would I ever survive hold my Lil girl after she passed. I cried so many tears It felt like I would never be able to cry again. I know in my heart I was a VERY VERY Lucky mom. However, there's many out there that doesn't receive the same blessing. No one knows what its like to be told your baby will die unless you have been told this. If I had chosen to abort her I could have lived with it vs what I knew her living for those 12 hrs would had been. It's a horrible, painful death.. No one will ever know what its like till you have been faced with those words. We don't have a right to tell a mom she has to go thru this. God is the final judge.. Again Danny I thank you for sharing you are the 1st person I have seen that has faced this other than me I thought I was alone on T-18.

It's time for you to turn off the tube and leave Fantasyland behind. Your unshakable belief in people on TV was funny at first but even I don't laugh at real mental illness or retardation. I don't care who on TV CONFIRMED this little nugget for you - only the stupid could call this dumb opinion fact. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe the fetus suffers - even if that's true (and there's some question about it since the nerves of the fetus aren't fully formed), an abortion only takes a few minutes so the pain you say they have is would be over quickly and can't BEGIN to compare to the pain a live baby can suffer. Some babies born with diseases suffer for HOURS, DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS before they can finally die that natural death of your's and anybody who has ever worked with these children can CONFIRM that for you.

Forget the people on TV. Having your picture made doesn't make you an authority on ANYTHING. It's just images and people on TV are just as stupid with the camera on as they are when it's off.

Can't you see the irony of this? What are YOU doing except deciding that everybody MUST live because YOU say so? You don't care that the mother doesn't want to bring her fetus to term, you want to FORCE her to make a baby she doesn't want to and then spend the next TWENTY YEARS of her life supporting the baby SHE didn't want to create.

You say you don't want to let a woman make her own choice to what happens to HER body and HER future and she should have thought of the consequences before she got pregnant. You say that all babies should be created no matter what the medical problems and all pregnancies should be brought to term - no matter what the doctors and parents think. You say all fetuses must be born and then they can die because someone on TV CONFIRMED that it doesn't necessarily bring as much pain as you might think. You say the woman carrying the fetus shouldn't be able to decide what happens now and should have to create the baby YOU want her to have because YOU don't like the idea of people deciding who is eligible to live and die.

But YOU are trying to decide who is eligible to live and die! The only difference is that you want everyone to live and she doesn't. Since it's her body, her fetus, her money, and her life that's at stake, I think HER vote outranks your's - especially since you'll be long gone once you ruin everything for her.

Who's right and who's wrong on the abortion issue itself isn't my point - what's funny is that you can't see just how hilariously hypocritical your sentence is!

There is something horribly perplexing about pro-lifers advocating amniocentesis - early or no. Things that make you go "hmmmm....."

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Why? Aren't there certain defects that an amnio would detect that could be repaired in utero or immediately after birth? I never had an amnio but I can understand why someone would want to have the procedure without ever considering abortion. Sometimes you just want to know what to prepare yourself for.

__________________
Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

Here's a great example of why pro-lifers would opt for amniocentesis: My sister found out in a level II ultrasound that her child had markers (indicators) of Down Syndrome, and needed an amnio to discover more about what seemed to be a problem with the baby's heart.

The amnio that was done gave them the information the doctors needed so that a team of surgeons were ready at the delivery of the baby to repair the hole in her heart.

Thank goodness for that amniocentesis. Without it, all of the medical people who needed to be in place for my neice to survive would not have been in place.

Just one more pro-lifer who hopes to rid you of the "horrible perplexities" you were experiencing... not so horrible when you understand better....

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Oh, I'm just such a blooming idiot. Thanks for your vote of confidence.

I am perplexed by the idea of a pro-lifer risking a pregnancy by inserting a huge needle into the amniotic sac and withdrawing fluid, to find out things that might be wrong. If the procedure results in a spontaneous abortion, it seems to me that would be objectionable to the pro-lifer, no? Or maybe that's just collateral damage??

It's feels like using medical technology when it suits your ideology, and rejecting it when it does not.

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Amen sister!

That is why I would not have amnio -- too much of a risk to the baby in my mind. If there was a serious concern during one of my pregnancies then I would have to weight the risks vs. the benefits of amnio. but I wouldn't automatically rule out having it done.

As for this:
"It's feels like using medical technology when it suits your ideology, and rejecting it when it does not. "

I'm not sure I understand why that's problematic for you. I think we all do that to some extent all the time when we have to make decisions regarding our medical treatment.

__________________
Cecilia

"We must love them both--those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in the finding of it."
Saint Thomas Aquinas

Yeah, I suppose you're right there. Better for me to stay out of this sort of discussion and I'll do just that. It's not one where any minds are going to change.

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

And by and large; you can't even agree to disagree peacefully on this topic.

The argument stems from whether life begins at conception or birth--and there really isn't any clear cut evidence supporting either argument. It's all a matter of opinion and personal feelings.
I don't know if my opinion is correct---just like I don't know if the other "side" is right. I think more could be accomplished if some people could respect the opposing sides right to have an opinion--and not get nasty about it. *sigh* I don't see it happening, though.
I know there are those here who don't agree with my position on things, but they have been respectful about it--and I'm trying to be as respectful as possible when discussing these types of issues. However, a couple of people here bring out the absolute worst side of me. If I have offended anyone in my responses to those posters that were less than respectful, I do apologize. Please know it was not aimed at you.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

To me, this seems like a bit of a stretch, CJ. I mean who said pro-lifers also take a stand against medical technology? This is the first that I'm hearing that one.

In the case I mentioned w/my sister, she researched different amnio doctors. Did you know that you can learn what their records are (how many of a particular doctor's patients' babies have been lost due to the amnio, itself)?

I think that if you have a pro-life mom in this situation, and she weighs the risk of potential problems w/amnio to the risks of her baby being born with a serious unknown heart condition (with a 'wait and see' approach), she will probably opt for the amnio...

Not attempting to change anyone's mind on where they should stand (pro-choice versus pro-life). But you gotta love when all sorts of people who do *not* share your beliefs take the liberties to decide for you where you should stand on the beliefs you *do* have...

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

AMEN, I pretty much feel the same way. I posed a ? in another thread, and it never got answered:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by KellyJef

The late-term and partial-birth abortions that Tiller did should sadden even the most pro-choice people.
As a pro-choice person, I can say that without a doubt this does sadden me. But, this is our law and it is legal. The choice of this can never be an easy one, I'm sure. However, it is a legal procedure that ends the life of a fetus.
MY REPLY TO KELLYJEF

Why does it seem like people who are anti-abortion come across as thinking that people who are pro-choice are hunky dorey with the whole abortion thing? A person can be against the procedure but not the choice to make it. I know, I know, I know.... I'll never get anyone to see it differently, but, this really does perplex me, the logic."

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Ok. A minute number of amnios are done before 20 weeks. Happy? Did this add anything whatsoever to the discussion?

I didn't think so. It's like most of your contributions.

I remember seeing this post, and I thought about answering it, I just didn't understand this statement at all. Do you mean "A person can be against the procedure for themselves, but not against the right for others to make it," or something similar?


FWIW, I don't consider pro-choice people to be honkey-dorey with late-term abortions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even consider pro-choice people to be honkey-dorey with *most* abortions, but want them to still be available to those who feel they need them. I know there are exceptions, such as people who think the abortionist who was killed is "a saint"...

The difference, I believe, is that if you are pro-life, then you believe abortion is wrong at any point, because we believe that any abortion is taking a life. Then there are some people who think it's wrong after a certain point, and some people who think it's never wrong.

And I agree with Marilynk on her point that inherantly, we will have to agree to disagree. Probably nobody on here has changed anyones' minds. I do credit Marilynk with having at least put out there some really thought-provoking situations and questions (without being harsh or ridiculing) - things that help me to be more sensitive to the pro-choice movement.

Thanks, Marylink.



Then you get this stuff:
That's just pathetic. Doesn't help your cause even a little. Embarassing, actually.

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

Happy? NO!

You ceratinly have a way of trying to present a case on misleading statements.

Sorry..if presenting FACTS is not what you want to hear. Yes, I think presenting facts are very important to a dicussion not just bold emotional, misleading and sometimes false statements.