I wanted to reply to this post by DevinMom since she took the time to reply to mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinaugust
A person can be against the procedure but not the choice to make it.
DEVINMOM'S REPLY

I remember seeing this post, and I thought about answering it, I just didn't understand this statement at all. Do you mean "A person can be against the procedure for themselves, but not against the right for others to make it," or something similar?


FWIW, I don't consider pro-choice people to be honkey-dorey with late-term abortions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even consider pro-choice people to be honkey-dorey with *most* abortions, but want them to still be available to those who feel they need them. I know there are exceptions, such as people who think the abortionist who was killed is "a saint"...

The difference, I believe, is that if you are pro-life, then you believe abortion is wrong at any point, because we believe that any abortion is taking a life. Then there are some people who think it's wrong after a certain point, and some people who think it's never wrong. "

Yes, your first paragraph is where I stand. I know the procedures involved in an abortion - did a research paper on it in college. I'm glad to know, Devinmom,that you are rational enough to understand how a person could have this beliefe.

Now, in regards to the pro-life stand, do you feel as though ANY life (wether viable or not) should be prolonged regardless of the quality of that life? If a child is doomed to be on a ventilator in a vegetative state from birth, that life should still be permitted to "live", so to speak?

I'm not looking to change anyone's mind, that's about a dead horse if ever I've seen one. Just looking to get some understanding of the other side.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I personally don't believe that life which requires artificial means in order to be maintained (such as a ventilator) needs to be sustained. Once a person would reach a natural death without the intervention of technology, I think that person should be allowed to die.

That is just my opinion.

Great question, allinaugust. Where do you stand on this one?

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

About the whole abortion issue, some issues have had me scratching my head for a long time. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

Question - why is it a woman can abort a baby and the father has no say so?

Question - Why is it legal for a woman to abort her baby but if a person kills a pregnant woman, for example, he/she can and often is charged with 2 counts of murder?

Question - Why is a woman's body rights so protected and yet the baby's body which usually already has a heart beat, etc. has no protection?

I just do not understand what I consider to be double standards.

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Mary

I think quality of life plays a huge part in the "living". I don't want to have my life prolonged on a ventilator with no chance of quality of life. Personally, I think it is selfish of people to prolong a loved one's life (Terri Schaivo case comes to mind) for their own desires.

EX: we currently have a very beloved family member who has lived a long and wonderful life, but, is currently not having good quality of life....sight is close to gone, mind comes and goes, and 99% of their time is spent in the fetal position. They themselves have expressed a desire to die, "I want the Lord to take me NOW" was their exact words. She WE, the family, prolong this person's life because we will be so sad when they do die? I wish we could give them a pill so they can just pass quickly and pecefully. But, this is JMO.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

With much compassion, the Lord will take her when He wants to take her.

I have not heard of any local (or national for that matter but I don't watch a lot of national news) cases where the unborn baby is considered "a person". A case just happened and the murderer was only found guilty of one murder, not two (and the woman was over 8.5 months along). An unborn baby doesn't count as a 2nd passenger for the carpool lane either. So I guess on this issue, I don't see the double standard

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Some states do have laws that consider the fetus a person. There was a case that happened in my town that changed the state laws here. Killing or harming a pregnant woman in Iowa counts for TWO people.

That's assuming one believes in this "Lord" you speak of...I happen to not and think a person should be able to end their suffering!

I not only believe in pro choice I believe a lot of people should have abortions that choose to keep the unwanted child. Too young, unable to provide a decent quality of life for a child etc. JMHO. I say all these pro lifers should be ready to raise all those unwanted children when they decide to make abortion illegal!

The reason I said that was because the lady said "I want the Lord to take me now" so obviously she believes.

And sometimes, no matter what the Lord wants--the humans prolong life out of their own selfish existence. They don't want to let "Momma" go, or they think that with enough time their brain-dead child will get better. Yes, I know--my family has been there: Not only with my 50+ y/o brother-in-law who had cancer, but my 12 y/o cousin who's was fatally injured in a car crash (although they did keep him on machines long enough to harvest his organs for donation).

People! If you have no doubt that you do not want to be kept alive by artificial means, please draft a "Do Not Rescuciatate" order for medical providers, or draft and sign a "Living Will". Do not leave your fate into the hands of a family who is devastated and may not make rationale decisions. Discuss this sort of thing with your spouse, significant other, parents, siblings, best friend and children (if they are old enough to understand)--let them know what your wishes are. If you are diagnosed w/ some sort of illness/disease that can be fatal, decide at what point you want to stop treatment and when you want to just not feel pain---and tell your healthcare providers!!
Humans are funny creatures! We sometimes have a hard time letting go of loved ones when we know that they are better off without all the tubes and wires and "stuff" that keeps them alive. We sometimes keep loved ones alive because we don't know how to let go...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Personally I can understand both sides of this issue. I do feel that abortion is ending a life I would not do it myself. However, because of the fact that this is attached to someone who is going to have to make an often difficult decision at a time when perhaps the thinking is not rational that it should be legal. I say this because of all the deaths and horrifying deformities caused by back alley abortions.
The ideal situation would be to educate people to make the right choices and to use birth control but we are often talking about young people with little or no real sense of "the world" and a pair of undies raging with hormones.
I believe that it is one of the things God wanted to see how we would handle.

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

And the post I was referring to didn't sound like the womans life was being prolonged by machines or anything. I don't have a living will. I told my boys to follow the guidelines of the Catholic Church if I/they are ever put into that situation. I trust my boys more than a piece of paper.

Marilynk-I thought you were going on vacation since you didn't reply to what I thought was a very good post last night!

KTS: Your children love you, and in theory will agree to do what you ask if they are ever faced w/ such a situation. But I have seen perfectly sane people become crazy w/ emotions when a loved one is lying in bed hooked up to machines. Grief, anger, a whole slew of emotions clouds judgement and decision making. You (the general you) might know today while everything is fine that your 18 y/o child wouldn't want to be kept alive--but tomorrow if he were hit by a bus and you were faced with the fact that he's brain dead, his soul is GONE, his mortal body needs machines to keep him alive, I don't think you could say with 100% certainty you'd be able to let him go w/o a fight. That's just how humans are.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just find your statement "I trust my boys more than a piece of paper" to be incredibly naive and simplistic. Grief and loss does strange things to people.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

vacation starts tomorrow...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Quote:
Originally Posted by allinaugust
A person can be against the procedure but not the choice to make it.


I think this is a very good point, as every pregnancy and situation is very different! People may make different choices at different times in their lives. I fully support a womans right to choose, but when I was in that position, I chose not to terminate. If I were pregnant today, I would not carry the baby to term. My Life, My Vagina, My Rights.

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"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

Well I'm not being naive and simplistic. You may not be trying to pick a fight but of course you would find something I say to have something wrong with it. I have dealt with tons of loss in my life-you are not talking to someone who hasn't dealt with death over and over and over again. I am 100% confident in my boys and they know that if they are unsure of what to do to consult with a priest and my good Catholic friends.

I wonder how long it will be before only the 'perfect' and 'healthy' people will be allowed to live .......

Seems like so many see humans who have handicaps and are less than perfect a burden.

Whatever....
It must be so reassuring that your children will never disappoint you.
Have you ever stopped to consider that by putting your wishes down in writing you will be making things EASIER for your children at a time in their life when they need your help? But, unfortunately you are comatose....

You may have seen death--I don't doubt it. However, I've experienced it personally. I've been the one that the family has said "do whatever it takes to bring Momma back" all the while there is a DNR order posted on the wall above the bed. I've been the one the mother has begged to put her baby back together. I've been the one who's seen families fight (physically assaulting each other in the room) over whether to keep their daddy on a machine.
All I'm saying and will continue to say is DNR and/or Living Wills make it a lot easier---and you don't have to specify no extraordinary measures! You can request that anything that can be done to be done.
To presume that your child will "do the right thing" when all they really want is their Momma is incredibly naive, IMHO.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

A little off topic but when my brother Sonny passed away actually while he was sick for a long time I never ever thought about death or even mentioned it , it was too sad . Thankfully his breathing was never effected honest to God only the last day of his life did his breathing become very labored. Sonny was taken care at home by his loved ones and we would have the aids hospice nurse come over. Now on the last day of his life he was in alot of pain he did not speak, he had 2 morphine patches on his arms and the hospice nurse was admitting morphine drops in his mouth and Sonny would put his fingers to his mouth to say please some more. At one point I knew deep down inside he was extremely close to death and decided to leave to go to church with his best friend and my cousin Maria. It was there that we found a statue of the Blessed Mary and pray before her and asked for her to please take my brother out of misery for as much I loved him dearly I knew it was over. About 20 minutes later we returned back to my parents and acutally about 10 minutes later my brother passed quietly. So for me deciding whether you should pull the plug or stop life or prolong it , its a personal decision and on this if a person has a health care proxy and has signed papers I would honor them.But again you can only make that decision when your faced with it. Peace. Catherine

Ah, CO it's apparently one person and that's the way *I* think it should be. I am pro-choice and while I say that, it does not mean that I like women who use the procedure for birth control or late term abortions. I want the option available to any woman who is pregnant due to incest, rape or if the mother's life is at risk. I know personally, I could never carry a baby that was a result of rape or incest and I don't think any woman should be forced to do so.

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Why don't you just leave me alone Marilink? I realize you have been there, done that on almost every human condition imaginable but you aren't always right. You think I judge people but what are you doing here? I'm not pressuring my children. They are both adults. They are absolutely fine with this decision. We discussed it. Just because you think it's naive doesn't mean it isn't right for me and my family.

I think the statistics for abortions due to rape are less than 1%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

So 93% of the 50+ million abortions since Roe v Wade are not for catastrophic situations.

35 states recognize unlawful killing of an unborn child as homicide in at least some circumstances. (25 full coverage; 10 partial coverage)

http://data.opi.mt.gov/legbills/2009...s/jus34a03.pdf

Twelve state laws (AR, CA, FL, GA, MA, MS, NV, OK, RI, SC, TN, WA) only apply to pregnancies after quickening, or during the fetal stage, or after the fetus is viable -- i.e. it could survive outside the womb.
Fourteen state laws (AZ, ID, IL, LA, MI, MN, MO, NB, ND, OH, PA, SD, UT, WI) apply to any state of pre-natal development.
Seven states (IN, IA, KS, NH, NM, NC, VA), penalize actions which terminate a human pregnancy.
Isn't it interesting that you can be charged with homicide in killing a child in the womb if it's wanted but it's legal to kill it if it isn't?????

Personally me I'm thankful for Roe Vs Wade every single day I see the news, where some sick man like the one that locked his daughter up for YEARS and fathered 4 children with her. I 'm also thankful for( Roe Vs Wade) the ones thats been raped and found themselves pregnant by their raper. I'm thankful ( Roe vs Wade ) when I hear about a child thats been raped by a dad, cousin, neighbor, uncle. I'm thankful those females have a choice to abort a pregnancy under these terms. I can't imagine what it must be like to carry a child from a person thats has raped you !.. I don't buy into have the baby and then give it up for adoption, Hmm nothing says LOVE ME more than a child( person ) learning they are the offspring of a rapist and a mother being FORCED to have you.. I can't imagine a woman having to carry a baby for 9 months and having to wonder every single day will this child also rape ..
I can't imagine having a baby and something going wrong and the child you were forced to carry is by your rapist and then being told we are sorry you will never have another child.... I'm thankful these females have a choice in the say to whether or not they want to go thru this ... No one has a right to decide they should have too. I'm sure while being pro life has its good points how does 1 pick and chose from the ones walking in that clinic thats there to just abort a unwanted baby from 1 thats been raped ?.. I think it's horrible for protesters to stand outside a clinic yelling murderer !!. baby killer !!. Oh my word how unreal for anyone to say things like that not knowing the full details behind why the woman is there ... I can't imagine the grief that woman is already having to go thru and now being called those names... Sad !

KTH -- As to writing your wishes. If you had one child, your rationale would be sound. But, you are risking their future relationship with each other if you don't write your wishes down. Because, if you don't and something awful happens, they may disagree and that disagreement will mostly drive a wedge between them that cannot be fixed. Not writing what you want is putting a terrible burden on them in the event they ever have to make such decisions without your written guidance.

It will be around the same time that they start doing away with anyone who is non-Christian.....because, what they think and want doesn't really matter anyway, right?

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Thanks for the info.l It doesn't change my stance though. I am very glad we have Roe Vs Wade and I would fight to keep it that way

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Proud to say I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart since Sept 2003

Thanks for your concern. We are all happy with the decision. Like I said, what's right for my family might not be right for yours, etc... They know they are to follow the guidelines of the Church so in essence it sort of is written down in Church doctrine.

Amen sister.

No one get's the rights to my body other than me.

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

What abouts the rights of the baby with your dna in your own womb?

See my comments in red above.

Please read Casey v. Planned Parenthood for a better explanation of viability and balancing the rights of the fetus with the rights of the mother.

(not knowing) If you have a spouse, your boys have nothing to do with this unless you give one/them health care surrogacy / poa or one/them is appointed guardian following whatever is acceptable in your state.

While medical decisions can become a family affair, there is an order.

dl

So if tomorrow I get in an accident and am hooked up to machines, etc... my boys are my next of kin so don't they make the decisions? No, I'm not married.

I started with (not knowing) because many people really do not have any idea of next of kin order. Then I followed with "if".

Now I know you are not married and that translates into IF your boys are adults (not minors defined by your state) then yes they are your nok.

Be careful tomorrow !

dl

Do you ever travel in the same car together? Sleep in the same place ever? Are they always so close and available to you that they can make decisions quickly?

What about organ donation? Would you like to be forced to be an organ donor if that is not your wish?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

You do recognize you're not going to change one single mind with your rants, right?

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Reading is Fundamental.

where have I judged you? I didn't say you were wrong....I simply stated that trusting your kids are great, but death and grief do strange things to normally rationale people.

I never said you were pressuring your children. I said that in the process of loosing their mother their decisions and judgment could be clouded.

There are so many variables that could happen between now and the time you pass! You could even live longer than both of your children. One child could marry a money-grubbing gold digger who wanted to see you dead. The possibilities are mind-boggling.

Oh and I love the irony of you saying that you're doing what's best for you and your family--yet, you think a woman shouldn't have the right to choose whether to have an abortion. Basically, it's ok for you to do what's best for you and yours--but it's not ok for others if it doesn't go along w/ the way you believe....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Again, the Terri Schaivo case comes to mind. It's all fine and dandy that your boys know your wishes, but, what about if someone else tries to step in. PLEASE, do not say there is NO ONE else. There is ALWAYS someone else. Good grief, look at all the people sticking their nose in with the Terri Schaivo case. Decisions of life and death and such are very personal. Aren't you glad you have the right to choose, and hopefully YOUR wishes will be carried out? If you don't want tubes, hoses, etc. you don't have to have them, but, the option is there. That is how I feel about abortion. I don't want it, but, the option is there, and the choice is MINE.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Sorry, I have visions of this one !!!!! Once a death has occured, the body is considered quasi-property so the nok or health care surrogate can make this decision.

And contrary to popular belief, simply having donation designated on a dl will not make it a sure thing. The procurement organization will still actively get permission. Some do it in writing, others record a telephone conversation with two witnesses.

People really do need to talk about these situations, but rarely do.

dl

That one was handled wrong on so many levels. It is scary to me what happened and how dogooders were allowed to hold it up and go against her husband. Her husband was her nok and should not have been challenged without the law allowing them to do so. I seem to remember the governor got involved as well and that was wrong too.

dl

Geez, why is everyone so concerned about my business?
1. My oldest doesn't live at home anymore and is getting married. We are rarely in the same car. 2. They both live here so yes, they could make decisions quickly.

That is your opinion but there are many, many people who disagree with your position.

Of course ! That is why there was such controversy over this particular case. I never said many, many people had to agree with me.

My memory of this is simply what I said, that people got involved and should not have, even the governor. A governor is not nok.

Here is another perspective for you. WHY do we (maybe not you, but many, many people) decide to put a pet down? I am speaking of euthanasia. I hear so many reasons, medical facts, emotional comments etc that all make sense to do this.

And yet, we let a human lie there. Sometimes in their own waste, unable to breathe on their own, fetal position, no brain activity, unable to feed themselves, etc.

dl

You can't compare human beings to pets. And I guess we do "put down" babies in the womb.

Ahh, and why can't I/we compare? Both are living, breathing beings......

I am, admittedly not speaking of abortion, perhaps you can table that issue for a bit and simply ponder euthanasia.

dl

That's an apple to orange comparison Marilynk and I think you are smart enough to know that.
You told me I was naive, etc... That is how it stands now. I can draw up a living will or whatever if circumstances change. Believe me, I am aware of how fast you can lose someone, etc... If one child marries a money-grubbin gold digger than I would draw up something. Geez, it's not set in stone for life. It's what we have all decided on for NOW. Who cares anyway?

Then you better not swat a fly either. Don't step on an ant. Those are living, breathing things too...... And, while you are at it, why eat meat?

Marilynk-If I had said something you had decided on was "incredibly naive and simplistic" you would no doubt threaten to take me to court again! Yes, I think that was a judgmental statement on your part.

Ok, you can't take a post for what it is. Swatting a fly, stepping on an ant, etc are not the actions of euthanasia. I went back to read and I did write euthanasia, not being mean, careless, or unknowing.

I thought you could have an interesting perspective, but obviously you can't. Your agenda is either abortion, religion or your twist on what is being discussed.

Euthanasia has nothing to do with your illustrations.

dl

Well I don't see the comparison between putting an animal to sleep and putting a human being "to sleep". I don't see us as being on the same level as a dog.

okey dokey. I do. I see it as kindness, consideration, caring, etc. I see it that we are kinder to animals, (not just dogs) than human beings.

Back to your agenda of abortion or religion.

dl

My agenda huh? Well yes, I agree that it's kind to put animals to sleep in the right circumstance. But humans are a different species and I draw the line there.

Really, I don't understand how/where you (anyone) draws the line on euthanasia. I know I have gone wayyyyy off topic, so this is it for this particular thread. Sorry to the op.

Absolutely humans are a different species and I see it that we should treat "our own" no less than animals when it comes to the conclusion of quality of life issues, or as you said, right circumstances. If we can decide for animals, we can decide for humans.

I do appreciate your clearer responses.

dl

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

So 93% of the 50+ million abortions since Roe v Wade are not for catastrophic situations.


Please cite your source on these statistics.........

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"It's not about how much baggage you have, it's about whether or not you can carry your own baggage with grace and dignity."

We put humans to sleep all the time. It's called Morphine. Rationalize it all you want, but enough of it stops breathing. And, when it comes to that, that is usually the desired result.

I was recently asking my vet about euthanasia and she said she wished that when it is her time to go, she could go as peacefully as the pets she puts down. It's true, we are more humane to animals than we are to humans.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Here's one site:
Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Also, the rate of abortions has gone down. less are being performed.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.