Regardless of where you stand within the political spectrum, I would hope that saying thanks to the brave men and women who lay their lives on the line day in and day out to protect us would be a great thing. Watch the following ad:

YouTube - Holiday Thank the Troops Ad

Then think about the fact that NBC refused to run it. Yes, they were going to be paid to run it like any other ad.

Regardless of how you feel about the war, the refusal to run an ad like this is frankly -- un-American. Aside from the fact that their current shows suck, I now have another reason to avoid NBC.

You can read more here:
NBC Rejects Ad From Conservative Group

Again, left, right, center it doesn't matter. The men and women who serve in our armed forces deserve to be thanked, honored and respected. What rational American would view that ad and decide that it wasn't appropriate to run on their TV network?

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

I have a son - Sgt. in Army - deployed to Iraq until January 2009. I will not quit watching NBC, if there is something I want to watch on that network. I have more important battles to fight.

God bless your son and God bless you. I pray your son returns home safely.

I don't have any time for companies that don't respect the work that folks like your son are doing for our country. Skipping network TV for me doesn't matter much, I tend to pretty much watch nothing but the History Channel anyway. Most of the stuff on the major networks -- aside from 24 and House is pretty crappy to me anyway. I just find it hard to believe that Americans would refuse to air a simple thank you message of support.

I bet if it was 1942, this kind of lack of respect would have been loudly denounced.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

I am presently only getting one TV station on my TV anyway so you can count me in,lol.

Which station?

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Neither agreeing nor disagreeing on the NBC Boycott, but, I will remind you (perhaps??? You say you watch a lot of the History channel, so you may be aware of this) many years back, in Norfolk, VA-home to the Largest Military Base in the world, people would post signs on their lawn for the Sailors to keep off. Not sure if this occurred elsewhere or not, nor am I sure of the actual years this occurred, but, it did occur.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Not sure of what you are referring to there, any links to educate me?

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

WKBN 27 Youngstown

NBC get little to none of my viewing time anyway. We should thank them in a way because the attention to this story will only ensure more people will see it by searching for it on Youtube.

There's something besides nick Jr and Noggin?

__________________
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com

My other favorites
www.paperbackswap.com
www.wheresgeorge.com
www.geocaching.com

I agree I am done with NBC too...didnt watch it much anyway.....I know its their right but I think it is utterly disgusting that they wont air an ad thanking our troops...there not doing it because it is from a conservative group....there is no agenda here, its just a Thanks, they have aired very questionable ads but no not this one....its makes me sick...Regardless of their stance or party they should have respect for our men and women in uniform...I swear I dont know what this world is coming too.....Oh and Barbara Walters interviews Hugo CHavez as one of the worlds most fascinating people?????? Yea he is fascinating all right, he hates AMerica and we honor him.....Blows my mind away....Wont be watching that either......SHerri

__________________
"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Isn't The History Channel part of a joint venture, which includes NBC/NBC Universal Cable?

If you do a search on Google and various internet/message board sites, you will see this action is 'loudly denounced' by many.

Personally, I don't find their action 'un-American'. In fact to me, it's quite the contrary. Americans have the ability and right to accept or deny a concept or idea. We have the freedom to say yes or no. NBC asked that the organization remove a URL from the commercial. The company chose not to, so NBC declined their business.

I'm also grown weary of people throwing out the unAmerican card when someone does something that they don't agree with. That argument is losing steam for me.

I believe this was indeed a way for the organization to garner publicity. Seems to be working like a charm.

As for me, I'll continue to watch NBC. 'Heroes' is one show that I looked forward to watching on that channel.

__________________
@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

Yeah, I'm getting pretty sick of it too. Both here and IRL.

cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Count me in. Also sick of the "if you don't do XYZ, you don't support the troops." Patriotism by blackmail -- I'd call that pretty un-American!

Time for a new tune, MC Prez! Or at least sing it in a different key.

cj/

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

Wow, I've lived here for over 20 years and you would *never* see that happening today. This is a big military area (we have all branches) and we love our military. Many of us who live here (me included) live here because our families were/are stationed here. If the military were to pack up and leave this area we would be financially devastated.

I'm hoping that the signs you are referring to were from people who live outside the bases and just didn't want sailors walking on their 'manicured' lawns. If it's because they were anti-military then that is just so sad.

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ----Edmund Burke

If you really feel strongly about this ad, perhaps you should contact General Electric....they own NBC.

While I do not agree with their decision to not air the ad, my Dh is in harm's way for them to have this right.....as much as something like this might frustrate, it is what makes our country so great!


I do wish though that more people would understand that you can Support out Troops, and not necessarily support the war.

__________________
"You can never really pay back. You can only pay forward."

Wayne Woodrow “Woody” Hayes

O-H-I-O

I'm sorry, I see nothing wrong with NBC not running the ad. They have rules and regulations that have been put in place for years. All NBC asked was to pull the plug on the URL, they refused so Wallaaaaaa no ad to air. From what I gather most corporations just like MC has rules and regulations. If we break one, then we have to break them all.

__________________
"Madison AnnMarie " 6/13/2008

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=8652d1ea.pbr

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=adbcb309.pbr

The world is going to Hell in a handbasket and it is going fast!
Hollywood and the News Media are tryting to run and ruin our lives.
And it is working on a lot of people.
So sad.
All we can do is pray for everyone!!!

__________________
Square dancing is friendship set to music!

[quote=jm19;2923338]The world is going to Hell [quote]

LOL! Thats the understatement of the year.

It's not the ad that is controversial, it's the group.

It would be like running the same ad from the KKK.

Thanks for expliciitly pointing that out. It seems to be missed by some.

__________________
I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

The ad is a lure to get folks to visit the groups' website -- read the article carefully as it tells why NBC is rejecting the ad.

Kvmj is right to point this out.

Why on earth do you think Hollywood or the news media give a hoot about your or my life?

I think she's referring to Fox News.

NBC has changed their mind and will run the ad.

FOXNews.com - NBC Reverses Course, Agrees to Air Troop 'Thank You' Ad - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

Just asking for some clarification.

There is an Election board, which I thought was supposed to be about political issues.

And then there is the Cafe, which I thought was supposed to concern itself with things like you daughter piercing her bellybutton.

I understand that there were political posts in this thread before the Election thread started, but why still? And by the "Prez" yet?

Since I haven't posted here since the Politics board shut down, and indeed, had to create a whole new identity because I didn't remember my old password, I'd like to know the rules.

Is this where we should post political diatribes? Like if I want to say that I think that Bush sucked us into an unwinnable war and the media was complicit, I should post it here? Or should I post it on the Election2008 board? If I want to talk about the travesties of years under Bush, should I post it here?

Or how about if I want to post about the economy and how I think this administration, and the drain on the economy of the Iraq War contributes to the increasing instability of the economy, should I post that here?

In short, what is the line between this board and the Election 2008 board? Given there is a place where I and others could post our thoughts about political issues, the Election 2008, board, it strikes me that this is a wholly inappropriate place to be posting on topics such as NBC's Air Troops decisions.

But if the "Prez" thinks that this is a better place for commenting on things that deal with general matters relating to politics and not specifically to the election (which is going to be something of a hard line to draw), I'd like to know it now.

This is often joked about in Navy circles, but Snopes says it is false. Now there is one house on base here that has this sign in the yard as a joke.

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Keep Off the Grass

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Raising my baby RIGHT!!!!!!

All the cool babies are wearing cloth!

I strongly disagree, I feel if this ad were funded by a George Soros or alike NBC would have no problem with running it. They were trying to keep people from visiting that website plain & simple.
So much for their rules & regulations anyway since they are now running the ad.

Just an FYI but the following happened a few years ago:

"CBS officials are still refusing to air a MoveOn.org Voter Fund commercial during Sunday's Super Bowl game because the 30-second advertisement criticizes President Bush's fiscal policies. There is no question that the network's determination to censor critics of the president damages the political discourse. But the network has not exactly silenced dissent. In fact, CBS's heavy-handed tactics are fueling an outpouring of grassroots anger over the dominance of communications in the United States by a handful of large media corporations. More than 400,000 Americans have contacted CBS to complain already, and the numbers are mounting hourly. ... "

"Exhibit A Against Media Concentration"

BTW, the ad never ran,

I've seen the Snopes article, but, I've heard my own family members talk about this, seeing it firsthand, and when we lived there, I worked with a woman who said her family had the sign on their lawn when she was growing up. DH had also seen some of the signs when he was stationed there. Could be one of the "joke" signs you refer to, as he was stationed there in the 90's.

I'd also like to add that I'm tired of the "in the name of patriotism" BS. If you don't do something you are not being patriotic. I'm also sick of movie stars and their "patriotism". I think some of them are just doing/saying things for lip service, not really walking the walk, kwim???

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I've moved this thread, because I feel it is political in nature and it belong here! Thanks

__________________
"Madison AnnMarie " 6/13/2008

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=8652d1ea.pbr

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=adbcb309.pbr

I've sent the signs posted in Norfolk. My brother has been station there since 1980 , Chief Petty Officer, Nuclear Sub. I've been down there a million and one times and I have seen them first hand. I think Snopes is wrong this time!

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"Madison AnnMarie " 6/13/2008

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=8652d1ea.pbr

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=adbcb309.pbr

I suspect you may be right. My brother was in the Air Force back in the 60's and was near Biloxi for a short time. I vaguely remember him saying that they couldn't go into town unless they went in pairs because the locals didn't like having them there. If they went as teams they were less likely to get beaten up.

My uncle who was career Navy had similar tales to tell about some of the various places he was stationed. That goes even further back. Probably between about 1947 until 1967 or so.

Of course they probably brought some of this reaction on themselves.

Rather dramatic aren't you? You can turn off your TV you know?

Aside from being tired of hearing that if you don't agree with my politics you aren't patriotic, I am also tired of the "let's blame Hollywood and the liberal press" nonsense. There are absolutely no talk radio programs left on the air in my neck of the woods that even have a moderate leaning. Fox and CBS are hardly bastions of liberalism. MSNBC has a mix of programming. My local paper which for years was liberal now salts it's editorial page with the neocon agenda, but still gets criticized for it's liberal slant.

What's sad is that NBC caved to the pressure. All they wanted was for the people running the add to remove the URL. If the group running the ad were so concerned with their message why didn't they agree to pull their URL off the add? All the people that were running the ad wanted was to create a controversy and they succeeded. Classic tactics.

The post really had nothing to do with the election and everything to do with an ad that is doing nothing but thanking our troops. Being grateful for the sacrifices made by our men and women in uniform has nothing to do with being on the political left, right or center and everything to do with -- thanking our troops. I'm confused because I thought it was possible for folks to be against the war but for our troops? NBC made a poor choice and then corrected their mistake.

I realize it was sponsored by a conservative group and that the initial reason/excuse for not airing it was because of the URL being included. They were paying for the ad so having their URL in it just means full disclosure of who is behind the ad.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

No, NBC didn't make a poor choice or a mistake, it was trying to adhere to the commonly held "standards and practices" regulations for such ads. But, because Freedom Watch (a group of wealthy republican fundraisers who support the administration's Iraq policy) cleverly couched their "ad" under the guise of supporting the troops there was the typical onslaught from the right accusing the left and the "liberal media" of not supporting the troops. Shame on you for falling for such an obvious ploy. Confused indeed.

Most of the mainstream media didn't have a problem running this ad so I'm not sure what commonly held "standards and practices" you are referring to?
At the very least the message Freedom Watch has put out is a positive one unlike that of the very wealthy democrat fundraiser George Soros (who doesn't support the war) . He funds moveon who ran the NY Times ad attacking the character of **** General David Petraeus who has served this country honorably for over thirty years.
Now that's shameful.

Well, that all depends on what you define as honorable service.

I'm not sure CNN and Fox are "most" of the mainstream media but they are the 2 networks who agreed to run the ad.

As for moveon.org -- Mr. Soros and I have both contributed money -- he gave millions, I gave a couple of bucks. There are many ways to serve our country honorably and quite often that means questioning the government. Blindly parroting the party line (both on the left and the right) is, IMO, shameful and exactly what the OP of this thread did.

Who in your opinion are the mainstream media? By mainstream media I meant ABC, CBS, and CNN & FOX.

How do you feel that some of your money went to a organisation that paid for the General Petraeus ad? Personally I don’t give money to any activist group for that reason; it would make me sick to think my money helped support such garbage.

Putting your life on the line for your country is honorable; questioning the government is our right.

As far as parroting the party line goes could it possibly be that the op truly feels this way? I agree with the op’s post and many others do as well, why else would NBC do a about face and run this ad? I think NBC underestimated just how strongly most Americans feel about our Troops.

Agreed that thinking for oneself is always preferable to following a party or a person.

And for the record, that is not what I did at all. I think their choice was shameful and political and from a business perspective dumb. They actually came to the same conclusion because thousands of people let them know exactly how they felt. So say what you want about me, I could care less.

I know what I believe in and why I believe in it. I'm proud to having served in the military. I'm proud to have voted for Reagan and saddened by the fact that there are no true conservatives with a chance of winning. Big government neocons don't count.

If moveon.org had produced the same exact ad with the exception of their URL and name being used, I wonder if NBC would have run it... I certainly wouldn't have any objection to an ad run by moveon with such a positive message but we all know that their ads tend to be a little less than positive. Some of you may even know that the folks at moveon don't even know what type of uniform the soldiers they profess to care so much about actually wear.

I find the hateful rhetoric on sites like the dailykos and the huffingtonpost amusing. It's funny how violent, angry and misguided some of the writers on those sites really truly are, especially since they are anti-war. It's also funny how people who disagree can't disagree on the merits but have to try and make themselves look smart and the person with a different opinion to be dumb.

Although not connected with NBC's initial choice on this issue, it is kind of amusing:
NBC refunds advertisers as ratings plunge - Yahoo! News

"Fourth-ranked broadcaster NBC has quietly begun reimbursing advertisers an average of $500,000 each for failing to reach guaranteed ratings levels, the first time a network has taken such a step in years, media buyers said."

Giving up NBC, with their crappy programming, isn't much of a sacrifice that apparently many people tend to agree with...

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

This is all "WASTED" bandwidth on a real non-subject! NBC can do whatever they want and they don't make moves like this lightly...maybe to even get the publicity like this thread and online blogs provide?

My bet is that the OP has fallen into an NBC trap!

I wouldn't call it an NBC trap. I'll bet he believes that tax cuts increase revenues every time, that the MSM, except Fox, has a liberal bias, and criticizing the war is unpatriotic and hurts troop morale.

Democrats are very angry about what's been done to this country so I'm quite sure it shows through in their writings.

I don't understand why Grover Norquist isn't in jail.

I consider NBC, ABC, and CBS mainstream media. Fox and CNN are newschannels available to subscribers of cable or satellite services.

I feel quite good about contributing my few dollars to Moveon and frankly wish I could give more.

Questioning our government is our right and responsibility and in many many cases honorable (think Martin Luther King, Edward R, Murrow, and even John Dean). We sent our military to Afganistan in defense of those rights.

My distain for the OP's post was based on his insinuation that NBC's decision to not run the ad was unquestionably "un-American" and those of us who understood their decision were not only irrational but disrespectful of our military. You and the OP have every right to boycott NBC but don't call those of us who disagree un-American.

I realize that raising revenue by lowering taxes is counter intuitive. That does not change the fact that it has done just that historically. If you take money from people, they then no longer have that money to invest and you lower their incentive to earn more. Therefore by keeping taxes low there is more money available to flow within the economy and to fuel growth which leads to additional tax revenues. The trick is on finding the correct level of taxation that maximizes the revenues overall.

Here is a good place to learn about the economic principles in question: Laffer curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe that NBC made the decision based upon the political lens through which they view the world. Freedomswatch.org is indeed a politically motivated organization so what? An earlier poster actually compared to them to the KKK which another example of using over the top rhetoric and does nothing to further the debate.

Again, if moveon would actually run an ad just like the one in question, I wouldn't have any problems with it at all. What is wrong with directing people to a web site so that they can read and consider things for themselves? Even if you disagree with the goals of the organization, isn't it ok to let people make up their own minds?

Also, I don't believe that people who disagree about the war are un-American in any way and if I came across as feeling that way, I'm sorry. Some of the very far left anti-war rhetoric is clearly anti-American but that is only on the extremes -- people who believe 911 was in inside job or that our military bases are training camps for terrorists, certainly things that no clear headed person would espouse. ...

Finally, I also believed that starting this thread would lead to additional posts which it has indeed done. It's great to have discussions flowing over things that are happening in the news now.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Absolutely, Disney Channel!! lol

Heres one for you, where has Annie been?? I heard you fired her right before Christmas. How American is that?? All so you can keep a buck in your pocket?

you can get good unbiased news here: WorldNetDaily - A Free Press for a Free People

You were quoting me but I actually have no idea who Annie is. I definitely didn't fire her. Maybe you meant this for someone else.


cj/

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I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In morse code. -Emo Phillips

I'm sorry but our relationship with any members of our team simply can not be discussed in a public forum. I'm happy to be very open with anything regarding me personally but discussing anything about any of the members of our team is just not appropriate.

All I will say on this matter is that given the financially difficult position of our company, very painful decisions had to be made over the past few months. Decisions that had to be made or risk the entire company being closed down.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Unbiased?? Hardly!

Yeah, that is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

One of the problems we all have is that there are no really unbiased sources for information. I'll admit, I think that Fox news is more unbiased than the other cable news networks. At least they do have voices from both sides of the debate. Back in the day, I loved shows like crossfire on CNN but I really do think that CNN has tilted a bit to the left. Fox says fair and balanced but I can see how there is some disagreement with their tag line from those with a different opinion.

That's why it is important for smart folks to use the Internet to read both sides and not just the one they tend to agree with... Not only is it our responsibility to speak out against government wrong doing, it is vital for our republic for our citizens to educate themselves about the issues. Educate means reading about both sides of the issues and then formulating our own reasoned opinion and then voting accordingly.

From some of the responses to my posts, I get the feeling that some of our MyCouponers would rather spew one liners than take the time to really think things through. The funny thing is, those same folks will accuse me of being a knee-jerk Republican when I am anything even close to that. Knee-jerk Libertarian maybe.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Greg, I disagree. I don't think that their choice was political at all. Freedom's Watch is an advocacy group whose sole purpose is to promote George Bush's failed policies. I had seen their previous ad which equates 9/11 with justification for invading Iraq. Nothing could be further from the truth. 9/11 was the excuse they used. Have you heard of PNAC? I am so sick of all the disinformation put forth I could
scream. For the record, I have never seen MoveOn put out disinformation.

I haven't seen a lot of hateful rhetoric at either Kos or Huffington Post. I will admit that there are a lot of people who are very angry at where our country is being taken. A better example of hateful rhetoric would be FreeRepublic. I have seen overt threats. One of their members was arrested for threatening Keith Obermann. Also hateful is anything that passes from Ann Coulter's lips. The KKK is also a politically motivated group.

I'm glad you're proud of your military service. I'm proud of what I do too. I'm proud of my father's service.

Republican admiration of Reagan, I don't get. Rudy is currently running an ad that states, and I'm paraphrasing here, Iran's ayatollahs were so cowed by Reagan's strong visage, they let the hostages go on the day of his inauguration. I think it had more to do with his direct negotiations to hold these hostages in exchange for arms sales.

As far as NBC being unable to deliver enough viewers and having to refund advertising dollars, I think you can attribute that to the writer's strike.

For your information, I am familiar with the Laffer curve along with the flawed thinking behind it.

I do sympathize with your choices this year. The GOP is now the party that Rove built. When I think about the money people trying to share the party with the far right religious elements. I just smile.

kvmj,

Thanks for the very thoughtful response!

I don't agree with everything freedomswhatch.org has put out and I wasn't trying to defend their views, merely their ability to put out an ad that thanks our troops. I may agree with their goals or I may not.

I believe the reasons for the war were right which is why Hillary voted for the war, no? I don't believe the war was handled in the best way or that the administration had the proper plans in place to deal with the issues after the military victory. Clearly they failed there. The reasons for moving to remove an evil regime are fine with me. Even is he didn't have the goods, he sure tried to paint the picture that he did. Given the fact that Libya dismantled their nuke program and Iran stopped theirs during the same year means that the message we sent to such regimes was loud and clearly communicated. Even if Iraq was fooling us, the international community and their enemies.

All you need to do is read the comments and even some of the diaries on the dailykos to see the hate filled language used by the members there. I'll take a look at the freerepublic but I'm sure the language on both extremes does nothing to further honest and open debate about the direction of our country. There are nut cases on both sides, I'll easily grant you that point! Ann Coulter, although amusing, certainly uses exaggerated and over the top rhetoric -- stipulated. Ann likes to toss bombs and not stimulate thoughtful debate.

The KKK are evil pieces of feces. Comparing freedomswatch to the evil KKK was over the top and doesn't further the debate. There will never, ever be any defense of the KKK out of my mouth or fingers ever.

Agreed about NBC's need to refund, that's why I said it was not connected but still amusing. It's nice to see businesses that make poor choices pay for those poor choices. Poor choices including their choice to air crappy shows as their poor choice on the ad had no effect on their earlier poor ratings.

I'm not aware of the PNAC but I've started googling them to learn more.

I've been a fan of Reagan since I was a little kid. Was he perfect no. Did he help to a. pull our country out of the economic mess of the 70s? you bet; did his clear focus on winning the cold war work? kind of hard to deny with the fall of the Berlin wall. I agree with him that government isn't the solution it is the problem. I agree with his stance to confront the Soviets and I'm a firm believer that his mantle is one that no current Republican candidates have the ability to claim.

There are certainly disagreements with the Laffer curve, however, it's basic premise makes perfect sense. Government earns 0 revenue at two points of the bell curve -- -0 tax and 100% tax. The trick is on finding the point that best maximizes the tax revenue. Certainly putting more money to work in the economy versus having the government waste it stimulates more investment which leads to more jobs and more tax revenue.

All you need to do is visit your local DMV to find out how great our government workers are... There are career government employees who live to serve their country, but there are millions of them who punch the clock and take our money as our government service level continues to stink. God, I wish we would return to having citizen politicians versus career pols. I really believe that many of our problems are connected to people serving in congress for decades without having a real job.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Greg,

Again, I diagree. I do not believe that Hillary voted for the war because "it was the right thing to." Pure and simple; it was an election year. The GOP has been rather succesful in their efforts to label Democrats as "wimps.' The White paper was made available to all members of congress and only 7 bothered to read it. It's naive to think that their motives were anything but political. The White paper was clear about the lack of threat posed by Iraq. Sometimes I hate being informed. It's depressing.

PNAC is a think tank loaded with neocons. I just checked the site and they have taken down their mid 90's paper anout their plan to tranform the Middle East and establish "Pax Americana." It's probably out there somewhere, but I don't know how to find it. Their plan would be to start by invading Iraq or Syria. Iran was to be next. There is one line in this paper that leads to all the conspiracy theories. Again, I'm paraphrasing, "Of course, it would take an event like Pearl Harbor in order to get the American people to go along with this plan." I admit to having a few thoughts along conspiracy lines when I first read it. It's a plan for empire.

Democrats and others who are aware of these facts are very angry. We do sincerely want to see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and others impeached for their crimes. If you find that type of talk hateful, so be it. I find Kos kind of mild.

The economic mess of the 70's was caused by bank deregulation. Because of the need for thrifts to have to compete with banks for the first time, rates went haywire. It took a long time for the thrifts (savings and loans) to die. Frankly, I thought Reagan's economic policies, termed voodoo economics by Bush 41, were horrible. There were so many families living in cars. He also cut funding for the mentally ill which put a lot of dangerous and very ill people on the street. At the same time, he ramped up defense spending to unprecedented levels. Star Wars, for instance, was a hugely expensive and non viable program. (It still is) You may want to google Rev. Sun Myung Moon who takes credit for this program.

Although the Soviet Union fell during Reagan's administration, I do not give him credit. He certainly had a hand in it along with many others. The Soviet Union bankrupted themselves. We were in great danger of doing so ourselves.

And then, there was iran Contra.........

Likable fellow, Reagan, but not a good president.

For those that are interested, the mainstream broadcast media consists of ABC, NBC, CBS and PBS. CNN and Fox news are cable channels. And, again, Greg, I must disagree with you. Fox news is very, very biased.

Again, thank again for the thoughtful responses. People of good conscious can disagree and be amicable about their disagreement!

So you are admitting that Hill while do anything to get a vote even if she doesn't believe in it? Not that I know you are for her in the present election but seems like a pretty damning indictment of her to me. She'll do whatever is politically expedient regardless of what she believes. Personally, I don't believe either of the Clintons believe in anything but the Clintons.

I can't help myself, I'm a Reagan fan and happy to have served in the Army while he was in charge. I really believe that his determination to stand up to the "evil empire" helped to bring down the iron curtain. Although Putin is doing his best to bring back the bad old days. I can remember listening to Reagan on the radio in the 70s and making a comment to my mother that he should be president Reagan stared down the bear and the bear lost. His leadership and belief that our system could smash their system certainly proved to be correct.

Stipulated that the bank de-reg of the 70s helped bring on the thrift collapse. Admittedly I'm not fully informed on this topic in spite of the fact that my first job out of the Army was running computers in support of the thrifts. All I know is that business died.

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After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

I missed something -- who said that?

I did! And, I meant it. My reasoning is this. Only 7 people took the time to read the NIE White Paper on Iran. That paper stated that they weren't too sure about Iraq maintaining WMD stockpiles, but they were quite sure there was no nuclear weapons program. I cannot imagine undertaking a more serious decision than committing our country to war. WMD would not have been a threat to the continental US. Iran and Israel would be threatened by such a stockpile.

Sen. Clinton had access to an excellent intelligence source, President Clinton. There is no excuse for her vote. (I also feel that John Kerry and others betrayed their conscience by voting yea).

Rove, not a stupid man by anyone's reckoning, has recently stated that Pres. Bush wanted to delay the vote until after the elections. This is an easily disproved lie. The mood of the country was hyper-patriotic and we wanted revenge. Everyone I spoke to who supported the war said the same thing: "Osama Bin Ladin has to pay for what he did." It never helped me to point out that OBL wasn't in Iraq and that he and Saddam were not collaborators. Apparently, we just don't hear things that we don't want to hear. We had a fever.

When Bill Clinton was promoting his biography, I saw him interviewed. He stated that he had advised Bush prior to taking office that the biggest threat facing America was Al Qaeda. Clinton had drawn up plans to strike Al Qaeda in Pakistan after their attack on the Cole. Bush believed the biggest threat to America was Iraq and did not act against Al Qaeda. Clinton also brought up PNAC calling it an interesting theory which should have been debated before being acted upon.

Every member of congress would have been familiar with PNAC. Some would have had comprehensive knowledge on Iraq. If their decisions weren't politically motivated, what's your explanation?

To give Reagan sole credit for bringing down the Soviet Union is to ignore history. Pope John Paul had more to do with the timing than anyone else. Can you tell me which president failed to stand up to the Soviet Union?

Business was horrible in the 70's and most of the 80s. I can remember 20% mortgage rates and auto and boat dealers selling product for below wholesale in order to avoid another interest payment on their floor plans.