Hello,
I will be honest. I have not been following any of the Presidental candidates. I am curious to who people are voting for and why they feel this person is the right one for the job and what they stand for. Thank you for the insights and your honesty.

__________________
Jami
*Mommy to three beautiful children and a Pug. Lovehammers Fan!*

A copy of the letter to the editor for our local paper..that explains why we are voting for Ron Paul

Letter to the Editor

We want to encourage every registered voter to vote in the presidential primary election on Tuesday February 12, 2008. It is your chance to help pick who will be running for the Presidency in November. It is most important to voice your opinion now while there are still several candidates to choose from. That said we want to give our rational for supporting Republican Congressman Dr. Ron Paul.
Dr. Paul has been talking about the constitution and the monetary system the whole campaign. He has written several books on the monetary issue. Ron Paul wants to change our foreign policy to non-intervention (which is very different than isolationism). The war in Iraq and having troops around the world in over 700 bases in 130 countries is bankrupting the U.S. We have to borrow money from other countries, most recently China, to pay for our war. Ron Paul advocates a strong national defense, but sees our current foreign policy as creating a strong national offense. To quote Dr. Paul “The United States should never start a war.” Ron Paul did vote to go after the Al Qaeda after 9-11. He voted against the invasion of Iraq.
Dr. Paul believes, as did JFK, that we need to get rid of the Federal Reserve. It was tried twice before 1913 (as national banks) and failed both times. The current system is no different.
Dr. Paul also has a strict view of the constitution. He believes if the constitution does not explicitly give government an authority to do something, the government should not do it. This is in contrast to the status quo that thinks “If the constitution does not say I cannot, I will.”
Health care is a big issue this election year. With the country on the brink of bankruptcy and the lack of money in social security, where is money for national health care going to come from? How long will China keep lending us money? Or will the Federal Reserve keep printing more money out of thin air driving the value of the dollar down even further? All of the other candidates are running on a platform of more socialism. Take from one and give to another. Can’t you decide for yourself where your money should go? Or do you want BIG government to decide for you?
There is such a difference in candidates this year, We urge each and every voter to check the voting records of all candidates. Ron Paul has been voting the same way for 20 plus years as a congressman. Past behavior is the best indicator of future action. Check out Ron Paul at RONPAUL2008.com and Google “Ron Paul” for more information.
For those that say “He can’t win” We would like to point out that he has beaten every other Republican candidate at least once in the primaries that have been done, including a possible
win in Louisiana and 2nd in Nevada. A vote for Ron Paul is a vote for FREEDOM. A vote for anyone else is a vote for SOCIALISM. Vote Ron Paul.

Just saw this
YouTube - Neil Cavuto, February 5, 2008
I felt I should post this info... 2/7/08 Donald Luskin informed us today that he is stepping down as an economic advisor to Ron Paul and signing on to the John McCain campaign. (Wonder WHY?)
A SONG for RON PAUL from CAMELOT CASTLE - ENGLAND
YouTube - A SONG for RON PAUL from CAMELOT CASTLE - ENGLAND -

I believe in equality. I do not believe that the government has the right to spy on its citizens except under very special circumstances. In those cases, a warrant should be issued. I also do not believe that the president has the right to say which laws should be enforced or to ignore others. I do not believe that tax cuts generate revenue. I do not believe that tax dollars should be spent without oversight. I believe that we should be free to make our own choices.

I do not see much difference in the platforms of the two democratic candidates but believe that Hillary's health care plan and economic stimulus package are better. She is who I voted for in the primary. The right wing is sure to throw a lot of garbage at either nominee. But, I believe that Hillary can take a punch.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. Add to that, the fact that I like her ideas on education and part of her foreign trade ideas a little better than Obama. And I was thrilled, (perhaps for the only time in my life), to be able to cast a vote for a female running for president. Just an added bonus because I would have been happy to vote for Obama and will do so, if it comes to that.

I see McCain as Bush Lite. Among other things he seems to have no idea of what to do about the economy, and says 100 more years in Iraq, not to mention hinting at war with Iran.

Huckabee!!! I love the Fair Tax Act that he supports. For those of you who do not know about the Fair Tax Act here is a bried description:

The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including:

A progressive national retail sales tax.
A prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level.
Dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality.
Repeal of the 16th Amendment through companion legislation.

You can read all about it here: Americans For Fair Taxation:

I also went to here Huckabee speak in person and I like what he says and what he stands for.

Anybody who raises a child that would torture a dumb animal to death and then gets him off is a person that I could bit vote. Huckabee is entirely ignorant on foreign affairs and economics.

Before you embrace the fair tax you should read this: FactCheck.org: Unspinning the FairTax
Fair tax is not at all progressive. It's one of the most regressive tax systems ever proposed.

Me, I have no desire to live in a theocracy.

I appreciate all of your comments! Keep em coming!

__________________
Jami
*Mommy to three beautiful children and a Pug. Lovehammers Fan!*

If the choice was between Obama and McCain I think I'd choose Obama even though I think things are not going to be as easy to change as he thinks they are. BUT if it's between Hillary and McCain, McCain gets my vote. Hillary is too much of a politician and while i believe she knows what she's doing, she'll tell you what you want to hear and not necessarily believe it or follow through if it's not right for her.

I think Obama needs a little more time and experience and he would be a great candidate in a few years, I really do like him and I think he could unite this country more than any other candidate.

__________________
"A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked." ~ Bernard Meltzer

I'm a McCain supporter. He has experience and is a war veteran. He tries to get along with Dems and Reps. He is also pro life.
I don't know why everyone is in love with Obama. It's naive to think he will get in office and change everything. It just isn't that simple. I wish it was but it's not. Exactly what has he actually done? Can you eqate his experience to John McCains in any way, shape or form?? I know he is well spoken, handsome and charming but what else?????

I like Obama because he isn't anti-choice. Also he would have to work real hard or else get another Republican congress to be as bad as the current president. And I don't find him particularly charming or handsome. I know most don't agree with me on that, but I don't require charming or handsome in a president.

McCain is too old, knows nothing about the economy, and is too much of a war monger. We can not afford to be, both, at war, and do anything about the problems here at home. I vote for home. We need to get out from the strangling debt of war, and revive our economy and that won't happen with McCain as our leader.

His being a war vet does nothing to make him a better president than anyone else. In fact we don't need someone who proposes another one hundred to ten million years in Iraq.

What exactly has McCain done? I know there are a couple of pieces of legislation that have had his name on them. He co-sponsored the Use of Force Authorization, which allowed Bush pretty much unrestricted authority to go to war. Some people like him because he is considered a "maverick". Well the so-called "maverick" has backed the war and Bush from the beginning, 100 percent, and he was one of 13 senators that voted against a bill that would have provided 430 million for veterans inpatient and outpatient care.

If you like the policies and type of government that we have had for the last eight years, then by all means vote for McCain.
As I have said in other threads. McCain is Bush Lite.

But if you are tired of having your rights infringed on, if you are tired of lies and more lies, if you are tired of being hated around the world, if you are tired of this country being spent into oblivion, then it's time for a change. McCain is not change, he is more of the same. Hey I think I just created a campaign slogan.

I think Obama gives people hope too, which is something we really need these days. He is trying to unite people and get everyone into politics and I don't see any other candidate getting anyone as excited as he gets them? He could ride that wave right over Hillary.

__________________
"A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked." ~ Bernard Meltzer

Ok, you have dissed McCain sufficiently so now can you explain WHAT Obama is going to do? Specifics? In another post someone stated he will protect us from all threats. I really, really want to know how hs is planning to do this. Will some Obama supporter give me the plan for this??? This is a sincere request.

obama will protect kenya maybe, but not the us.

And my sincere answer is that I will vote for anyone who is different than what we have now and I am willing to give either Clinton or Obama a chance to see what they can do to improve things. I am not necessarily voting for them as voting against the status quo. I honestly do not think that this country can keep going on the path we are on and remain great. Of course if they don't get a congress to work with, they will both be impotent as president. They can promise all day long but won't be able to deliver.

I don't know how the other poster came to the conclusion that Obama will protect us, but it's not mine, mainly because it's an impossibility.

One of the things I dislike about Obama is that many of his promises are rather vague. Not all, by any means, but many. Clinton seems to send a clearer message on what will and won't happen with her as president and I don't agree completely with either of them.

I do like Obama on global warming, but Clinton is okay in that area as well. They are both calling for more stringent caps on greenhouse gas emissions. McCain has one point here that I agree on, tougher fuel efficiency.

Obama wants to offer credits on college tuition. He also wants an increase on capital gains tax on high earners. Here though, I would like to know what he thinks is a high earner.

On the mortgage crisis, one of his items that sounds good is tougher mortgage fraud laws. McCain almost has him beat here. McCain wants a plan to freeze interest rates for at-risk borrowers. The drawback is that it's to be voluntary. I don't see voluntary working here. It's possible it could work, but somehow I don't see all lenders going along with it.

Another "hot button" item is immigration. Obama wants to hire more border guards, (good IMO), and build more "infrastructure". That's too vague for me. I want to know what he means by infrastructure. So for me, another mixed result.

As for employement of foreign workers, here is one of the few things I agree with Bush and McCain on, as well as Obama. I think all of their ideas would work together and be good. Bush McCain want temporary worker programs. I like that. Let them work here for a few years, save up and go home. They pay taxes, they can have a temporary drivers license, they can't vote, they can't stay. Obama want to increase enforcement against employers that hire illegals. And he has a plan for a path to citizenship for those that might want to stay. My thoughts are that if you combine the two they work. If you are here on a temp. worker basis, and have paid your taxes, stayed out of trouble with the law for x number of years, then you can, if you want, start on Obama's path to citizenship.

And then there's the war. The war that shouldn't have been. The war that is killing us literally and economically. We need a withdrawal. We need to bring people home. And we need to not do this again. Obama wins this one. Clinton a close second.

There are topics where I like Clinton better but you didn't ask about her. In fact, if you have read this far, you are probably sorry you asked...

I am for hillard,obama is living in world he wants it to be not the way it is, he offering hope,hope comes from each of us.He is not going to be able to do the things he said,then all those people is going to be let down big time.This is not Dr King of JFK world,there is mad men out there.We need a strong leader If hillary loses i willl vote for macain.I rather have someone who really knows wants going on that someone who is preying on people fears .

It's not too late!
My advice is to take a few minutes each day and research the candidates. Use Google or another search engine. Search for the candidates' personal website. You can possibly even find speeches that each candidate has done on YouTube. Watch the debates. Weigh their positions against one another. What you feel may be different from what people say on this thread.

I think all the candidates have pros and cons. What's important to you may not be important to someone else. Some issues may be stronger for you than someone else.

Be informed. This way, when you go into the voting booth, you will feel confident in your own vote.

__________________
@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

[quote=wildwood;2953226]And my sincere answer is that I will vote for anyone who is different than what we have now and I am willing to give either Clinton or Obama a chance to see what they can do to improve things. I am not necessarily voting for them as voting against the status quo. I honestly do not think that this country can keep going on the path we are on and remain great. Of course if they don't get a congress to work with, they will both be impotent as president. They can promise all day long but won't be able to deliver.

I don't know how the other poster came to the conclusion that Obama will protect us, but it's not mine, mainly because it's an impossibility.


Jaded posted the quote on the topic page of her Obama pictures. It was posted as an actual quote and NO ONE can promise that! As far as the war goes, we are there now so we can't just pull out and pretend it didn't happen. We do need to finish it and help the rebuilding, etc... I hope all the antiwar voters are also prolife!!!!

I'm curious to know what you mean when you say "finish" the war. Do you mean finish our invasion of Iraq, the country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, or do you mean the war on terror headed by Osama bin Laden, the leader of the 9/11 killers, and the man President Bush said he "just doesn't give much thought to".

What??????

I hope all the pro-life people are anti-death penalty!!!!!

OK, your turn.

2008 Election ProCon.org -- Which candidate would make the best U.S. President?
This appears to be an accurate website for the candidates views on different issues.

Most of us are!!! However, and I know the courts are not perfect by a long shot, at least a person on death row has had a trial, an attorney, appeals, etc... They have a CHANCE whereas there is none of that for the preborn. So, you actually can be both and not be a hyprocrit.

I don't think we are still "invading" Iraq. I thought we were over there now to help stabilize it and bring Democracy. If you leave before that happens you are asking for even more trouble. I'm sad for our lost soldiers lives BUT I am also sad for all the lives lost under the dictaroship of Sadam. Don't forget all the raped, tortured and murdered people by his own government. And all those left loved ones.....War is never nice or easy. It always involves sacrifice. One of my sons friends is over there now and someone I work with served about 18 months in the guard over there. And I thought we went in there becuause he was continously violating all the UN orders, etc.... And yes, we still need to get Osama. Too bad Clinton didn't when he had the chance!

No back then it was a whole country, Russia. There's always a "bad guy", that'll never change unfortunately, but it's what we do about it that can change.

Hillary is too much of a politician, she doesn't say what she feels, she says what we want to hear, or says thing so rehearsed that you can tell they aren't even her own thoughts, it's what she should say.

Even if he can't do all of the things he wants to, no president ever has delivered on everything, but at least he's getting everyone involved which is more than I think HIllary will do. I think she'll divide the country, not unite it.



I did see a funny bumper sticker though, something like:

Vote for Hilllary, because 2 boobs are better than the one we have now.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but it gave me a laugh.

__________________
"A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked." ~ Bernard Meltzer

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Ahh, you know me too well!!!!

No, most of you aren't. And an attorney doesn't mean squat when you execute an innocent man.

I am pro-life. However, I am not pro potential life. The needs and ability of the mother must always take precedent over that of the fetus. The needs of living, breathing human beings have value.

As far as the occupation of Iraq of Iraq goes, it's time for our quest for empire to end. The attack on this country was totally unwarranted, illegal and immoral. Our presence is aggravating the problem, not helping.

As far as Obama keeping us safe, I believe that he means to repair international relations in order that we may resume our role of leadership in the world. Most of us now realize that 9/11 happened because of heavy handed foreign policy in the past. The invasion of Iraq has caused widespread revulsion and, no doubt, desire for revenge. Killing more people aggravates the danger to this country. Moreover, Pakistan represents a greater threat. I would remind you that Pakistan has nukes. Since Pakistan borders Afghanistan, it would be wise to redouble our efforts there.

Terrorism is not the only danger this country faces. We are sitting on the brink of a severe economic collapse, global warming will severely affect our ability to produce food, we are unprepared for a pandemic, we are unprepared to repel an attack on this country, we need to clean up the toxins that pollute our air and water, and, most importantly, we need to preserve our rights as stated the constitution.

Damn! Exactly what I was going to say. Except not as well.

Well said.

__________________
@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

As a mother of a marine who is serving his second tour of deployment to Iraq, I find this thought that we can stay in Iraq indefinetelya crazy one . We do not have the manpower to keep going the way we are and unless there is a draft or compulsary (sp) service, we can never have enough armed forces to defend our country, be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Africa and it goes without saying, Kenya......(thats for PUM's sake as we know she is most concerned for some reason with Kenya where they speak Arabic ) without being spread around too thin.

Obama brings the thought of hope in that we can do this...we can extricate ourselves from Iraq, we can repair the us against them mentality that exists in America today. I believe that the message "Yes, we can" is something that we can all agree on...we can do the things that need to be done together.

I believe that McCain is a man of integrity. He wants us to be in Iraq and he has put his money where his mouth is. He has two sons, one already in the service and one about to graduate from the Naval Academy in 09 and will deploy almost immediately. I can't vote for him because I think his idea of what to do in Iraq is a plan of failure and one that cannot ever be completed.

(OT but I think it is hypocritical for those who yell loudest for us to stay the course in Iraq do not have a thing to lose there. I believe with all my heart that if there was a chance that their son/daughter would have to pick up an AK-47 and knock on doors to root out insurgents every day for eight months, they might think real hard about how much we need to stay in Iraq.)

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

ITA. I also think that if we still had the draft, we would never have gone to Iraq. I liked the McCain of 2000 a whole lot more than I like today's McCain. The McCain of 2000 would never have embraced the far right fringe.

I think we should have mandatory national service. It should require young adults to pick where they want to serve, with the armed forces being one of many choices. I look at the ages of those killed in Iraq and probably 2/3 to 3/4 of them are over the age of 24. Use to be they would be 19 or 20. I don't want to see any of them killed, but when you kill a 19 year old you are probably not ruining the lives of a wife/husband and children. So the social implications of our sending older family men and women to die is much more far reaching and devastating than sending a younger person who has yet to develop those ties.

I always sort of liked McCain until he started echoing Bush. I'm not sure how, after the way he was treated during his campaign against Bush, he could ever cozy up to him like he did. I lost respect for him then and so far nothing he has said or done has changed my mind. Of course his seeing nothing wrong with being in Iraq for a hundred years, particularly given his age, didn't endear him to me either.

mandatory national service.
Why do so many people want to give up our freedoms?
No way should national service be mandatory.
The plans that some candidates have mention usually includes"benefits" money, or eductaion credits, etc.
Wanting to serve our country should come from the "heart" not because you have to chose something to do for the country.
Yes, we do volunteer our time but not because someone tells us you have to, but because we want to.

Maybe, I feel this way because I do have sons old enough for this to impact,

Well then there are too many "hearts" who are lacking incentive. And sometimes it's better to show them where their heart should be than wait for it to occur on it's own. Kids that age are typically centered on themselves. This might help redirect that focus. I am not advocating just military service. There should be options. Some could work in the medical arena, some in building, some could help different charities and so on. It would be exciting and enriching. It would get them out of their safe little world and expand their horizons. They would meet people with different cultures, economics, and ideas. But only for a time, and then they could go back to their old habits and old ways if they really wanted to.

I also think a mandate is necessary so that the Bush kids, the Gates kids, the Hilton kids, all get put in the mix. I have noticed a decided element of "heart" missing in most of that group.

I think most people are afraid of change, particularly for their kids so I can understand your fear. When my son went into the Navy a few years back, every paper I picked up seemed have a story about a gun on a ship exploding and killing seamen. Or a helicopter dropping from the sky filled with Navy or Marines. At the time it seemed like the Navy was the most dangerous place to be and we weren't in a conflict. But he made it, we made it and he learned a lot. He finished college while in there except for one class and he did that when he got home. He got his degree from SIU Carbondale without ever stepping foot on campus until the day he graduated.

[quote=kvmj;2953532]I am pro-life. However, I am not pro potential life. The needs and ability of the mother must always take precedent over that of the fetus. The needs of living, breathing human beings have value.

Sorry but you can't be pro-life and pro-abortion. It just doesn't wash. The fetus is a living human being. When a person has a miscarriage at 8 weeks she says she looses her baby. It's not a baby just when it's convienent to the mother. Ultrasound should tell you as much.

As far as the war, it's a tough one. i think they should pay the military more. I DO NOT want mandatory service. As long as we have a sufficient volunteer army that should do. But I really would like to see more money and more benefits for our enlisted. I do have two sons. My brother pulled number ONE when they had the draft in 1972. Luckily they were not actually drafting at that time. We had just lost our dad in June, 1972 so we were pretty scared for our only brother. He went through the consiencious (sp) objector process anyway. So, I am not from a pro war family at all. But I do feel we need to finish in Iraq and help them rebuild. Just my thoughts.

[quote=kathytheshopper;2953795]While I agree about more money and benefits for the military, I do have to disagree that we have a sufficient volunteer service now. The fact of the matter is that there are a number of reservists who are spending lots of time in Iraq. People who have careers here in the US who are on their second or third tour. There are many servicemen/women who are on their third tour of Iraq. Who have spent only about 1/3 of the last five years on US soil. If there were more bodies, then that would make a difference.

A question for you, if you think we ought to stay and finish in Iraq and help them rebuild, would you send your sons? Why would I vote for someone who wants to send my sons? Do you see what I am saying. I am not trying to argue with you but this is a subject that is obviously dear to my heart. My son volunteered when he attended school to be a marine, He loves his job.

You made my point. You think we need to finish in Iraq, but not with your sons. But with someone else's son/daughter.

I appreciate you being not pro war.....me, too.

As a side note, I don't think we had a clear reason as to why we went into Iraq......Sadaam, WMD, oil, money, I think we have a myriad of reasons. It doesn't matter now, we are in Iraq and we have to figure out how to stop American lives from being lost there. I want a president who is thinking about American lives or one who is willing to give up the most precious thing in his life, his children, for the cause. I have four sons......two who are eligible for service at this time.....one is commissioned and one is being commisioned in a few months. My youngest will be inducted at USNA next June, hopefully. I believe in service to our country and so do they.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Although the reasons for us going into Iraq are not, in my belief, the best ones. The fact is we are there. We are still in Germany. I think McCain's response was one of realizing that when you toss out a government and are circled by the enemy, in the case of Germany, it was the USSR, with Iraq, you've got Iran, Syria etc. You are kind of stuck.

Having a footprint there is of strategic importance until we kick the oil habit. Hopefully the great work our guys and gals in the military are doing gets done and then serving in Iraq end up as easy a tour as serving in Germany.

Plus, bottom line, McCain (not my first pick but he is a fine one and well my hero is dead) was in a prison camp while Obama was playing with toys and Clinton was getting high with "I didn't inhale" Bill. I don't agree with McCain on every issue but you have to admit when it comes to real world experience, he trumps Obama in his playpen and Hillary "It's my turn! I put up with that jerk for years! IT IS MY TURN."

I've read Obama's website and I just don't get enough detail. Many of my uninformed friends are big fans of his and when I ask them for help about digging into the details of his plans, I just don't get any answers. How is he going to pay for his expensive plans???? How? Oh, roll back the Bush tax cuts and take it from the evil rich? Where does he say that? All I read on his site is money out without any money in. Where will the funds come from?

Obama may be ready in the next cycle, but not this one. Hillary is not even close to being qualified. First lady != experience. I could actually vote for a Dem with Truman's guts and Kennedy's vision. Unfortunately, those choices have been long buried by the extreme left. The Dems used to be driven by patriots. Now the supporters of Obama open an office and hang up pictures of a communist murdering thug. <sarc>Yeah, I'm sure Kennedy would love that and react in the same BS way as Obama... Right... JFK loved those commies. </sarc> Visit an Obama rally and count the number of "Che" shirts you see.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

You will start seeing more POW's speaking out against McCain. This does include youtube video at the bottom of Senate hearings.
John McCain: Privlidged 'War Hero' Fraud, Liar, Colloborator, Traitor: Part 1 , interview with Ret. Col Earl Hopper ((Feb. 8, 2008)

Edit to include this newsweek article
Ross Perot Slams McCain | Newsweek Voices - Jonathan Alter | Newsweek.com

Of course you will. Like I said, not my first choice but... Unlike the last Dem to run he didn't fake his injuries to get a quick ride out of the war zone and then toss them away. I don't believe McCain ever testified with a slate full of lies against his comrades in arms like Kerry. "Swiftboating" Kerry was deserved, against McCain, I just don't buy it. Kerry IS a coward and McCain a hero. Thankfully Kerry is done in national politics. McCain will be tarnished, I have no doubt of that. He's not perfect, just better than either of the alternatives.

Again, McCain isn't perfect, we don't have a choice between perfection and non-perfection, we have a choice between a man with shallow ideas who was playing with toys while McCain was in a prison camp and a woman who thinks it's her right to be prez because she was married to a jerk. No, no perfect choices indeed. I'll take the grouchy, old prison of war over either the child or the grouchy old woman.

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

If people need incentives they are things to offer them. But to "manadate" something in a free society is to take away part of someones rights to decide for themselves how to live their life.
I am not afraid of change, I am afraid that people do not understand all the freedoms and rights they are giving up..especially deciding for the next generation.

I just really think that you are putting way too much emphasis on McCain's POW status. Is the fact that he was POW the deciding factor on why you would vote for him?

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Nah, you got me. I'd vote for anybody who ends up on the Rep ticket. I'm still talking myself into liking McCain

I just don't believe that either of the Dems would be good for our country. I'd vote for a Truman, I'd vote for JFK, I couldn't vote for Clinton or Obama and I'm not thrilled with the probable Rep McCain but the lesser of two evils and all that. Please, leave me try to be happy with voting for McCain...

__________________
After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Well, at least you are honest!(and if I had to I would vote for McCain over Huckabee)

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

[quote=kathytheshopper;2953795]
To me, the pro-life stance seems to be pro birth. That's where your concern begins and ends. Me, I don't believe that a fetus is a human being. Human beings breathe and interact. Children that bring misery and hardship are best not born.

As far as the war goes, we've lost men but have thake a million Iraqi lives. We do not have adequate forces to maintain the occupation of Iraq. We do not have a sufficeint force to repel an attack at home. We are offering very generous enlistment bonuses and have been unable to increase the size of our forces. Others have pointed out that active duty military are most heavily contributing to the campaigns of Ron Paul and Barrack Obama, both are anti-war candidates. Does this not tell you something?

The Swiftboaters were proven to be liars. Greg, atrocities happen in every war. They happened over and over again in Vietnam. They have happened in Iraq. Westmoreland pushed for a high body count and he got it. I am not aware of a single lie that Kerry told regarding the Winter Soldier testimonies. He served in Vietnam.

I can liken his experience to having been to the slaughterhouse and becoming a vegetarian. He had every right to speak against the Vietnam War having witnessed it first hand.

I don't consider McCain a hero. I think that one needs to do something heroic to be considered a hero. You have to admit that he wasn't much of a pilot.

[quote=kvmj;2953914][quote=kathytheshopper;2953795]


To me, the pro-life stance seems to be pro birth. That's where your concern begins and ends. Me, I don't believe that a fetus is a human being. Human beings breathe and interact. Children that bring misery and hardship are best not born.

My goodness but you are judgmental aren't you???? Lumping prolifers as only probirth-WRONG. Every prolifer I interact with is also involved with charitable organizations like Birthright, feeding the hungry and clothing the homeless, etc... We do NOT think things end at birth. Birth is the BEGINNING. If a fetus is not a human being is it a dog, a monkey or what? It has all its DNA for heavens sakes. Children that bring misery and hardship are best not born has to be the saddest thing I have EVER read on these boards. Let's subsitute children with "elderly", 'disabled" and see what you think of that? Children DON'T bring misery. It's the adult with the problems, the child does not cause them. Kill the child because it's going to make the parents life harder? What a Hitlarian concept!!

Pot, meet kettle. Are you kidding??


I call Godwin's Law! You lose.

Link

[quote=kathytheshopper;2953941][quote=kvmj;2953914]Anyway you look at it, life doesn't begin until until it becomes part of this world. Abortion has been a part of this world for centuries. Outlaw it, and you kill women. Judgement on when ot when not to bear a child needs to be left up to each individual. Every cell in our bodies contains the complete code for a human being. Do you mourn the loss of skin cells, cry when a hair falls out? Children do bring misery when a mother hasn't got the resources to care for it.

Consider this. If we continue to reproduce at the same rate, we will have to double food supplies by the year 2050. Since the GOP is determined to make the world warm as fast as possible, this is going to be impossible.

What's not to like about McCain??? He was a POW, and to me, doesn't come off as a Hollywood wannabe. Is it his age???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

The fact that he had affairs while married?

I'm pretty sure that doesn't count against you if you're a member of the family values party.

I had no idea about this......where did you find this info??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'm sorry but I can't remember where I first heard it. I think it's fairly common knowledge and that he has admitted it. I believe he admitted it about the same time Clinton was being dragged through the dirt. So it was some time ago. And if I remember right, his wife was ill at the time of the affair/s. But that's just something I think I remember. I could be wrong about the illness. There was also something about his current wife being an addict and stealing drugs from some place. There again, not sure.

I just looked him up in Wiki for what it's worth and the affair is mentioned there.

I googled him, and did find that tid bit. I read about Guiliani asking for a divorce while his wife was recovering from uterine cancer. I think that is who it said did that. While I don't approve of an extra-marital affair,it is not high up there on my list of what to consider in a presidential candidate. Bill Clinton flat out LIED about his affair. I'm sure others have, too, but, just pointing out that Clinton lied, and if I'm not mistaken that was under oath.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

ROFLOL! well there you go. It's ok for Giuliani and McCain b/c of course they didn't lie about it (I'm sure their wives and families knew all along, right?) but since Clinton did, then he's Satan incarnate. Hilarious.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

That is what is so ironic about the whole "families value" party. Hilarious is right!

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God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

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No, no, no, you've got your family values guys confused. Guiliani asked his wife for a divorce at a news conference when she objected to his moving his mistress into the Governor's mansion. It was Newt Gingrich who asked for a divorce from his first wife when she was recovering from cancer surgery. I know, hard to keep up.

Clinton said that he didn't have sex with that woman. He literally didn't. Thet engaged in foreplay, but they never had sex.

I think you hav Rudy and Newt mixed up. Newt married his high school sweetheart (she was also his Geography teacher). They had 3 kids. While she was in the hospital recovering from uterine cancer, he told an aide that she was neither young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president and he left her and deserted his family. He refused to pay child support. He was having affairs and married one of the women 6 months later.

Rudy first married his 3rd. cousin and had the marriage annulled after he met someone else. He then met and married his second wife. While mayor, Rudy had a very public affair with his press aide. When he dumped his press aide, he found a job with the city paying $250K! So then he takes up with the woman who will become his current wife. His family found about his intentions to move this woman into the governor's mansion when he announced his new love at a press conference.

The only thing I know about John McCain's first marriage is what Ross Perot had to say: ""After he came home, he walked with a limp, she [Carol McCain] walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona [Cindy McCain, his current wife] and the rest is history." Ross Perot Slams McCain | Newsweek Voices - Jonathan Alter | Newsweek.com

That is some family values party!

He's anti-choice, he's anti gay rights, he's pro-war, he's pro illegal immigration and he's got a mean temper. What's there TO like?

true he's no huckabee but if he cleans up his act on immigration he may be ok.

but what do you care you hate this country anyways, should be glad that bush has prevented any more of clintoon's terrorists attackings, but instead you come here to mock true americans.

It is so obvious that you post just to stir up trouble and/or to shock and make people gasp.
I think you are full of nothing but hot air and excrement.

It's a shame that you find your pleasure and joy in life by being a troll on a message board. No one takes you seriously--everytime you post, we all just read it to see what hateful drivel you are spewing trying to provoke an argument. I pity you. You must have a dreadfully sad life....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

He's not pro illegal immigration. It makes more sense to keep them here (making them pay, I believe) than to spend more tax dollars to ship them back. Pro-war??? If a war needs to be fought, it needs to be fought. I know, you don't believe this war NEEDS to be fought, but, not everyone has the same opinion as you. I couldn't care less about his temper, myself. I want someone in office that can lead this country in a positive way, and hopefully do something to make EVERYONE happy. Fat chance, I know, but, I can hope.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

If you'd take a minute to actually READ what someone posts "
Quote:
Originally Posted by allinaugust
I googled him, and did find that tid bit. I read about Guiliani asking for a divorce while his wife was recovering from uterine cancer. I think that is who it said did that. While I don't approve of an extra-marital affair,it is not high up there on my list of what to consider in a presidential candidate. Bill Clinton flat out LIED about his affair. I'm sure others have, too, but, just pointing out that Clinton lied, and if I'm not mistaken that was under oath."




I said that I don't approve of an extra-marital affair, whether they are Republican, Democratic, or whatever. As for the "family values" party, I set my own family values, and sure don't rely on a politician to do that for me. I am more concerned with how a potential president will help this country. If the Republicans claim to be the family values party good on 'em. I never paid attention to that part, because as I said, I set my own family values. You'll never like all aspects of a particular party or candidate. I do like the fact that the Republicans are less for giving hand outs and more for personal responsibility.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I googled McCain and yes, he did have an affair, and he takes responsibilty for the demise of his first marriage. He is on good terms with his ex wife. I also found that 22% of married men and 14% of married women admit to having at least one affair in their marriage. As an earlier poster stated one of the big problems with Clinton is that he had it during his term in office and lied under oath about it. That's a lot worse than an affair 30 years ago and running for President now. He seems happitly married to Cindy.
I will campaign and vote for McCain. He is pro-life and pro heterosexual marriage. I believe he will not be a war monger. Sometimes things need to be done even if we don't like it. That's the way of the world. His temper? Yes, he seems kind of feisty. But at least that probably helped him survive being a POW. No one is perfect but I think he's the best we have. And about immigration-that's a tough one. I sure don't know what to do about the ones that are here. I want a fence though!

We seem to agree that a politician's sex life is none of our business. It's too bad more members of the republican party don't share a similar view. FYI, and to give you an idea of just one of the reasons why so many of us are furious at the "party of family values", the following is a partial list of republicans who, while chastising President Clinton for having an affair and lying about it were doing the exact same thing: Messrs Hyde, Gingrich, Vitter, Burton, Hutchinson, Livingston, Barr, and the only woman in the group, Helen Chenoweth of Idaho.

I do find it interesting that you say "the Republicans are less for giving hand outs and more for personal responsibility." You do know, of course, that the "stimulus" package was President Bush's idea. I think the consensus on the board when it was first brought up was that it was a senseless giveaway that would do little to help the economy. I could be wrong but I don't remember a tax rebate being given out in previous administrations and this is the second President Bush has proposed. How does that fit into your idea of the republican party being less for giving hand outs and more for personal responsibility?

Good to know cause the troops are going to be busy in Iraq for the next 100 years and next up is bomb bomb bomb Iraq.

YouTube - Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran

Or maybe he just has a really odd sense of humor.

I agree. The younger generations of this country are so used to having things handed to them, it's pathetic. A little respect and pride in your country isn't a bad thing, either.

I'll stop there, as I just know this is going to go WAYYYY off topic.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Did we as citizens ask for the stimulus package??? I sure didn't. Yet, someone can go out and have 7 kids with 7 different men and get health care and medical care for them. THAT is the personal responsibility I am talking about. I am not in a credit card mess, or a mortgage mess, am on NO public assistance, nor have I ever been. I have no problem with someone who is working poor and truly TRYING to help themselves, get a little assistance. But, for these people who have no morals to just do whatever they please, and then yell for "MY GOVERNMENT" to come rescue them, then, piss and moan about the SAME Government eroding their rights???? WTH????

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Can't say we disagree.

Well they give plenty of handouts, just not to ordinary citizens. The names Kellogg, Brown & Root, Bechtel, and the ever popular Haliburton come to mind.

The stimulus package is not for your benefit or mine. It wasn't even done for the benefit of poor people. It was done to benefit the businesses that are hurt by Americans who have lost their homes and their jobs. In other words, it was done to blow a little air back into the bursting housing bubble.

By the way, who appointed you God giving you the right to judge others?

How do you think anyone has appointed me God??? I don't want to pay for other's bad decisions, do you??? If that is judging someone, so be it. I don't care if you have 100 kids with 100 different partners, just not on MY dime!!!

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I guess they can but rarely do they. How many do you know like that? If I were on welfare, or assistance, with no way to afford child care and living in squallor, I would say to myself, "Self, you need to have a another baby. That $80 or so dollars a month will put us all on easy street." Oh yeah! There are so many myths about people on welfare and no one bothers to find out what the true story is, when it's much easier to just keep trotting out the lines about the welfare mother driving a Caddie or the welfare mother with 7 kids by 7 fathers. I'm not saying this has never ever happened. But I'm pretty sure it is so rare as to be a non-issue

Do you, or have you had children at home? Do you take the deductions for dependants and/or child care? Then you are getting assistance. Why should those without any children subsidize your children? WTH?

You not only judge a person's decision making ability, you sit in judgement of their morality.

I do believe that single mothers with 7 children is Chapter 2 in the Big Book of GOP Fairytales. I believe the chapter title is "Welfare Queens."

So you think it is a good idea for a person to keep having children they can not afford??? That's good to know.....I know several people who share this belief with you. Should I send you there address so you can pay for their children???

There are mothers (and fathers) out there with many children, on Welfare. I'm not sure what you're trying to say about some GOP book

A person has the right to have as many children as they want, with whomever they want. As I said before, I just don't want to pay for someone else's poor choices. There is nothing in the Constitution that I'm aware of that says you can have as many children as you like, and everyone else can pay for them. If it's there, please point it out to me.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I do know people like this, in fact. I don't just spout out things I have no knowledge of.

What does a tax deduction/credit have to do with the assistance I am referring to?? I'm not seeing your logic here.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.