Can anybody point me to Obama's specific and detailed plans? I've read his web site. There are bullets but no details.

I'm watching his speech right now and I hear bullet points to fire up people but no actual details. Blah blah blah, I'm here for the whites, the blacks the red states and the blue blah blah blah. Exon is evil blah blah blah. Where are the details?

End the war. End the mind set that got us in the war? Doesn't it end when the people who want to kill us either stop or are dead? How is he going to end it? Oh let's go for the gratuitous applause, with Bush won't be on the ballot. Sock it to the "rich", a constant dem principle. What do dems not understand about the fact that it is the "rich" who provide the jobs by starting, running and supporting companies that employe well... everybody? So, if you suck money from the "rich" they have less money to employee people. The rich don't stuff their money under their mattresses. They invest it. They invest it in companies, they invest it in employees. They invest that money to make more money and that investment leads to jobs, and wealth for more people.

Ah the American dream... that father can't pay the bills if he has no job. That woman doesn't have a chance to work the night shift if her employer can't pay her. The teacher is paid by local government, not the federal government. Where is the $4k going to come from? How is this community service going to be tracked? Ah, in America there is hope if you work. Exactly. So let's take from those who work and give it to those who don't? Does he not see the incongruity of his rhetoric?????

Exon is evil, yeah, it is not hard to get people to not be angry about gas prices. However, who do you think owns Exon stock???? Yes, pension plans... Again, he just plays to the crowd who don't look beyond the words.

I realize that most American's have a short attention span and that political speeches are supposed to inflame people. I'm sorry for the running commentary. It is vital for all of us to look beyond the pretty words and dig into the actual truth. I've made up my mind, I'm sure that is pretty obvious. You need to do the research and make up your mind based upon facts, not rhetoric, not speeches, facts, detailed plans, consequences of those plans etc.

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After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

Greg you ROCK!!! I was just discussing this tonight with my 83 yr old lifelong Democrat mom. Even she has it figured out that Obama doesn't have a whole lot of plans he just emphases change and unity and I think people read into that what they WANT it to mean. Another poster had stated that she "felt" good about Obama and that was what she was basing her vote on. Thatt's scary. I hope alot of the Obama fans flood this post with lots of specific info on his plans. Not just "he's going to keep us safe", "he;s goes to unite us" and "he will bring about change". Fine, good, but HOW????????

and along those same lines I find it frightening that you choose to base your opinion and your position based on what others have "told" you based on their "research" because they are "experts" and "they've been trained in that", "they are the professionals"....

I am not a Obama fan--I find his demeanor to be very UNCOMFORTING, so this is not about who's the better candidate. It's about how I find your statements to be contradictory. It's ok to base your opinion on other people's opinion/research, but not ok to base your opinion on how a person makes you feel?? I don't understand your logic....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Research is based on facts (hopefully! lol) whereas feelings are based on emotion.
As far as the first paragraph where you are quoting some of my previous words those words were not directed at a particular candidate they were directed at the war and the reasons we are there, the choices that are being made, etc... They are trained for that, I'm not. However, I can read about candidates and their positions and draw a conclusion on whom I choose to support. I hope I clarified that for you.

Before we entered Iraq, there were no people we could consider enemies. There was exactly one terrorist. Of the one million or so Iraqi lives we have taken all had parents, brothers and sister, children, uncles and aunts. The survivors of the dead are the people we are fighting. Every death creates new enemies. The longer we stay, the more enemies we make. Our actions have made us no friends in the region.

Rather than committing genocide, the more prudent course would be to withdraw and offer assistance. As previously pointed out, more political donations from active duty personnel are going to anti war candidates. This tells me that those who have seen Iraq believe there's nothing they can accomplish.

Ah the American dream. It has always been a myth that tax cuts increase revenue. Thanks to GOP policies, the American dad has no job, no house to live in, massive credit card debt. The American mom has a job but she makes less than her less experienced, less qualified male counterpart. American babies can chew on lead laced rattles breathe dirty air and drink water laced with carcinogens. We can all wear clothes made by children held in bondage working 14 hour days. When the children grow up, they can perhaps get a job in a union free environment where all safety concerns (they cut into profits) have been abandoned and maybe they'll live. Maybe they'll be able to afford health insurance.

Pardon me if I seem unsympathetic to the plight of the corporation.

I'm not really sure why you're so fixated on what I said about Obama making me feel safe or why you feel the need to bring it up in every thread since then, but since you are/do, then please get it right. I never said I was basing my vote for him on that feeling. I simply stated I felt like that. sheesh.



FYI - you and greg can also go to Barack's website, click on the link at the top that says ISSUES and read his plans for yourself instead of waiting for others to explain it to you.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Greg, it sounds to me like there is no way Senator Obama could satisfy you so I suggest you not frustrate yourself further and just warm up to Senator McCain. He seems to be perfectly willing to twist himself into a pretzel to attract voters such as yourself. Apparently you're content with the state of our country, and the last 7 years have been good to you and yours, so he's your guy!! The grand old party is also offering up Ron Paul and the Rev. Huckabee for Pennsylvanians to vote for. As the Reverand would say, your cup runneth over with candidates, pick one of them and stop knashing your teeth at our candidates, I can guarantee you neither of them will satisfy you.

LOL, I guess the blah blah blah was a tip-off for you too, eh?

As jaded said, the detailed plans are there on his website, under "Issues". If you scroll down, you can find them in PDF form. I'd take the time to directly link, but I don't really think you are interested in knowing. I think your OP was a veiled effort to criticize Obama and his ideas. As you (OP) have already stated, you have made up your mind and I don't think what anyone says here would sway you.

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

something about Kenya and cocaine

Nut and fruitcake

What you are doing is playing a game of semantics. You say that others have formed your opinion of the war, and you will more likely than not vote for the candidate that is most in line with the opinion that you "developed" by depending on others. Thus, you are NOT choosing your candidate based on your own opinions.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Wow Greg - you really summed up my feelings well. I feel so scared thinking of 4 years with an almost CERTAINTY (IMO) of Obama as president. I feel that we will be moving towards socialism in a BIG way. When I was a teacher, a colleague of mine used to say, "Those of us who are working are the fools." The more I see of how things work in this country, the more I see he's right. Where is the incentive to work and try to improve your life situation when a growing percentage of your earnings is taken by the government to "do good" for everyone, including increasingly those who don't work? We give 10% of our earnings to charitable causes. Should we stop now and just let the government spend that $ for us? I hate to do that as I feel that most everything the gov't has tried to do, it has botched

Thanks for putting words to my thoughts -
Susan

I would be just as scared having McCain or Hillary as president. So I think it does come down to who is the lesser of the evils and who will mess up the country the least for the next 4 years.

I really am sorry that you are so scared. I so sympathize.

Fourteen years of the republicans in charge of Congress and 7 plus years of Mr. Bush as President scared me too. I so agree with your statement: "I feel that most everything the gov't has tried to do, it has botched". Truer words were never spoken about the Bush administration.

I gather that your family made great strides during these past 7 years; you're pleased with the current state of our economy; and feel safer with the majority of our military fighting in the middle east. Sounds like McCain's your guy -- your grandkids can pay the bill for you being "scared".

I sometimes feel that way--and I'm sure a lot of other people do too. And that is crying shame that of the candidates none of them really inspire confidence. And we, the voters, are picking the President based on hopefully mitigating future damages.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Just wondering where you got your information to support this?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

The only terrorist harbored within the borders of Iraq was Abu Abbas, one of the hijackers of the Achille Lauro. Sadaam ran a very secular nation. Al Qaeda, by contrast, has very religious motivations. He was certainly sympathetic to Hamas, but, they did not reside within the borders of Iraq.

There are several good books on the subject of Iraq:

The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of Its Enemies Since 9/11, Ron Suskind

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq, Thomas E. Ricks

Imperial Life in the Emerald City, Rajiv Chandrasekaran

Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War, Michael Isikoff and David Corn

Bush at War, Bob Woodward
Plan of Attack, Bob Woodward
State of Denial: Bush at War, Part III, Bob Woodward

On the Brink: An Insider's Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence, Tyler Drumheller and Elaine Monaghan

The last book is the one you should probably read first.

When we elect individuals to public office who purport to hate government, I don't see how it can come as any surprise that they screw it up royally. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know I've gone back and forth with you before over things so I am going to let this rest. I stand by my explanation.

I understand...it's hard to argue with logic!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Oh sooo funny.

They hate the country so much and are quick to forget about the Clintoon years. Do we need to display the Monica dress to get you to remember those shady days? Never forget the Monica dress! Clintoon let the terrorists into this country. Since revealed Bush has stopped them from doing any further harm and yet you people cry "oh it's illegal". My bambino says it's fine so there. Go ahead elect the Clintoons again so they will give the illegals all drivers license so and maybe benefits too. Or Obama who doesn't even know what country to represent. move the whitehouse to Kenya.

I love you!!! People just don't seem to care what happened in Clintons term. For some reason the Clintons always seem to get a pass. Whitewater, alleged sexual abuse by many women, Clinton lying on national television.....none of it seems to mater to the Bush haters.

no,no....he apparently had a different definition of "sexual relations"....YEAH,that's it!!! He reminds me of some of the Televangelists......

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

One blue dress vs. a million dead Iraqis, 4000 dead American soldiers and 2900 ordinary American citizens.

How exactly did the blue dress hurt you?

ITA, I miss the days when republicans were consumed with President Clinton's sex life. I even wish President Bush could have "gotten a little on the side" maybe we wouldn't have invaded ... oh never mind

What exactly happened in the Clinton years that had as detrimental effect on our country as what Bush has or hasn't done in some cases?

I'm really curious. If someone can point to what the former President Clinton did that 1) caused a recession, 2) committed our troops to a war that as it stand right now is looking less and less winnable, 3) caused our reputation within the International community to suffer.

What former President Clinton did in the White House (with his extramarital affairs) was not good--but not one person died because of it.

Let's back up even more in history and reflect on the 1st President Bush and his "effectiveness" in the Middle East. Had he finished what he started w/ Desert Storm--we more probable than not wouldn't be over there NOW! I'm just saying.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Had Clinton been paying more attention to the first attack on the World Trade Center and the USS Cole and some of the other terrorists attacks (our military barracks overseas) instead of paying attention to the girl in the 'little blue dress', then perhaps we'd be in much better shape now and not have so many dead American soldiers.

He does not have a plan,he is playing on people fears,

Had Bush the 1st been succesful w/ his war in the Middle East, we probably wouldn't have had the 1st attack against the WTC, the USS Cole or other terrorist attacks....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Clinton did pay attention to the terrorist threat. He actually prosecuted those responsible for for the first Wtc. It is Bush who asleep at the wheel. It is Bush who let the perpetrators of 9/11 go.

Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike
Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike - December 16, 1998


This next article is more opinioniated
Clinton’s Worst Crimes - The Ornery American

You know, you really should read up on some of the above. The man responsible for the first World Trade Center was caught, tried and jailed. The USS Cole attack happened days before the presidential election. The investigation was completed into who was responsible for the attack after Pesident Bush was inauguarated. Did he do anything to catch those responsible?

For sure you should read up on the 1983 attack on our Marine base in Beirut when President Reagan was in office. Perhaps if we had responded appropriately then ...

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is that the guy they killed today/yesterday??? He also was in on the Pan Am hijacking....????

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yep, and may he burn in hell!!

Car bomb kills Hezbollah terrorist | The Australian

I would like to see a link to facts that prove we have killed a million Irag people. I don't believe that for a minute. I have done research and know that the UN delcared Sadam had killed 500,000 of his own people and a human rights watch organization puts it closer to a million. THis was under Sadams reign. This is not counting the rapes, etc.. I'm sad for the lost lives of our American heros. The only consideration is that they voluntarily enlisted-and they still are. My 23 yr old son has a good friend who enlisted two years ago. And yes, he has been to Iraq. Ordinary citizens being killed? Over there they take that risk just being there, don't there? Would you want to have lived there under Sadam?
The blue dress didn't hurt me. That's pretty silly. But neither has George Bush hurt me! And I am low income not a rich oil barren like everyone thinks he helps. I'm doing ok. I bet Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey would tell you how they were hurt......

We can keep going back farther in the blame game. I think we should agree that it was because of Adam and Eve!

OMG! They take that risk by living in the land that they were born in??? WTH!? They didn't choose to be born there, they may not have the means or the ability to get out of the oppressive state that they live in. I have some pictures of some beautiful children in Iraq--sent to me by a very dear friend who is over there for at least another 6-8 months. Those children are innocent. They have not done anything to anyone! But yet, they could very well be killed in the fray of battle. They have no choice but to live there

Secondly--My DH went to school w/ Paula Jones. She was a doorknob long before she met up w/ former President Clinton. What do I mean by doorknob? EVERYBODY got a turn!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I thought you were speaking about Americans living over their for their jobs, like contractors. NOT children born there.
Well, I guess if someone is "easy" it doesn't count if she actually refuses it huh? Heck, Clinton even ADMITS he has a sexual addiction problem.

1) how could you misunderstand what was meant when we were talking ordinary citizens? I think you are playing dumb on purpose

2) no, it's not ok IF she actually refuses. My point was I don't think she would have actually said NO! But I don't know--and neither do you. All we have is he said/she said. You ASSUME that former President Clinton is the liar. Having someone who actually has personal knowledge of of one of the parties involved--I tend to believe Paula was star struck and didn't get what she wanted, then she went to the press with her sob story.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Once again the American people were more interested in the affairs going on then the stuff the actually matters. I am only pointing this out because still people are only interested in Bill Clinton "sex affairs" and not what he actually did accomplish as President.

Too many have died because of the US and the UN. Not only because of Bush but also Clinton.

Clinton’s Worst Crimes - The Ornery American

"Maybe Americans don't care about the hundreds of Iraqis Clinton killed during the impeachment trial bombings of Iraq, and the scores of Iraqi civilians (and sheep) killed during the almost daily bombings of Iraq in the two years since then. Most Americans, incredibly enough, don't even know we're still at war, that we've been bombing Iraq every other day for the last two years!
Okay, for the sake of argument, say we can forgive Clinton for killing a few hundred or thousand Iraqis with bombs.
Bombs are merciful compared to what Clinton has done to the innocent children of Iraq, the most vulnerable of all, by maintaining ten years of the harshest sanctions in the history of mankind, begun on August 6, 1990, and kept in place at the insistence of the United States"
"On May 12, 1996, television’s "Sixty Minutes" interviewed Madeleine Albright (then U.S. ambassador to the UN, now Secretary of State). Leslie Stahl asked Albright, "We have heard half a million children have died [from economic sanctions in Iraq]. That's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?"
Albright replied, "I think this is a very hard choice. But the price, we think, is worth it."

Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike - December 16, 1998

Clinton wasn't even president on August 6, 1990! That would have been . . . oh, yes, another Bush!

He could have so "no" and stopped the sanctions but he chose not to. Bill Clinton was the forty-second President of the United States, serving from 1993 to 2001.

"Over one million innocent Iraqis, mostly children under five, have died miserable deaths simply because Clinton and Albright refuse to admit that sanctions are a mistake,"

George H. W. Bush was behind the sanctions.
Clinton continued the sanctions.
George W. Bush continued the sanctions for more than the first two years of his regime. And, of course, when the sanctions went away, he simply chose to bomb the place back to the Stone Age.

But in your world, only Clinton is responsible, right?

Both Bush and Clinton are responsibe for Iraqis deaths. Millions of people have died because of both Bushs and Clinton.
The sanactions ended in May 22, 2003.
But yes for 8 straight years Clinton maintain the sanctions. Clinton also bombed Iraq.


I was pointing out that Americans are still wanting to debate Clinton's sex life while ignoring what really matters.

I'm not. I couldn't care less about Hillary Clinton's sex life.

Hard to debate what isn't there..... I don't care about Clinton's sex life, just the fact that he lied under oath. I don't like lieing from anyone.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Bill Clinton literally did not have sex with that woman. I believe what they did would be classified as foreplay.

As far as I know, only Nixon and George W. Bush are the only presidents in the last 60 years not to have affairs while in office.

Are you serious??? Come on..... would you consider foreplay a part of "sexual relations"??? Bill Clinton claims to not have had "sexual relations" with that woman. Let's just call a spade a spade, shall we???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

It's true that you can't say Bush or Cheney lied under oath -- because they refused to be put under oath. Makes you wonder what they're hiding.

Foreplay is a part of sexual relations. He just has his own wording and defination what "sexual relations" is . I think it was his way to get around the subject. And not lie. We all know he lied. I can't and will not support a man or woman who thinks this way. When I had to explain to my children at the time what oral sex was , I had enough, It was all over the news, day and night.

I think the US is ready for a female president, but not Hillary.

Sorry if the past few posts are off track of the original post.

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"Madison AnnMarie " 6/13/2008

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