Since the other thread got locked, I'd like to comment on the welfare mother with 7 children. First, I do not believe that she exists. Welfare was reformed under Clinton's administration. It is available for 2 years. It provides a very meager existence.

I volunteered with the mentor program and the children that I met had mothers that were on welfare. All were born in wedlock. Most had abusive fathers. The most siblings any of them had was 2.

I don't think that someone receiving temporary assistance is a bad thing.

Of course there are people who abuse the system. But are they the norm? No, I believe they are the exception. It is convenient for people to trot out the "7 kids with 7 fathers on welfare" description because it is inflammatory.

"Women and Children on Welfare: Fact Versus Stereotypical Perceptions."

"Cammisa also addresses the same myth. Both authors rebut this myth with statistics saying that the average woman on welfare in fact only has two children. (Berrick, Pg. 15 & Cammisa, Pg. 16) In fact, Berrick notes that only one child is found in the families of forty-two percent of recipients. Thirty percent of AFDC recipients have two children; sixteen percent have three children while four or more children are found in the remaining ten percent (Berrick, Pg.15) The U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census documents that in 1993 mothers who receive WIC had an average of 2.2 children ("Mothers Who Receive WIC Benefits- Fertility and Socioeconomic Characteristics", Pg. 3). (WIC is the Special Supplemental Food Program for Women, Infants and Children which gives vouchers for specific foods to promote healthy lifestyles to low income mothers who are pregnant and/or have children under the age of five.) These statistics are consistent with Berrick and Cammisa's observations but the U.S. Department of Commerce also takes into account that the women used in this study vary in ages fromfifteen to forty-four..... "

"The second issue regarding women on welfare who continue to have more children to increases their welfare check is also a misconception among the public. Both Berrick and Cammisa argue that a welfare recipient's check may increase due to having another child but only on average by approximately $70.00 per month (Berrick, Pg.15 & Cammisa, Pg.16). Seventy dollars per month is hardly enough money to support a child and supports the notion that in fact many women on welfare find it harder to raise their children and to escape poverty and the welfare system if they have additional children. Berrick states:

one study found that women on welfare were more conscientious about using contraceptives while on welfare, that they were less likely to want an additional pregnancy, and that they were less likely to become pregnant while on welfare. Other studies have found that women on welfare become less interested in having additional children when they realize how great the financial strain of child rearing is. In sum there is very little financial incentive to bear further children while on AFDC" (Pg. 15)."


WORKS CITED

1. Cammisa, Anne Marie. From Rhetoric to Reform: Welfare Policy inAmerican Politics. Boulder, Colorado, 1998.


2. Duerr Berrick, Jill. _Faces of Poverty: Portraits of Women and Children on Welfare._ Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995.

3. Wilkerson, Isabel. "Wisconsin Welfare Plan: To Reward the Married," _New York Times_, February 12, 1991 , Pg. A16.

4. United States Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census. "MothersWho Receive WIC Benefits- Fertility and Socioeconomic Characteristics," Washington D.C. 1995.

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It depends on why the person is on welfare.
Is it because of job loss (not their fault), medical reasons, etc? Or is it because they are not trying to impove themselves.

I have seen both types in the volunteer work I do. (mainly a local Christmas mother program)
You can spot the ones that "grew-up" in the system they expect everything. The ones that have fallen on tough times because of things they can not control act very differently.

A helping hand-up is different than a hand-out.

I think there's a lot less abuse than there used to be. I also worked with the Jaycee Christmas program where all the families were referred by Social Services. Some of the letters were heartbreaking. Some wanted whatever the hot toy was, but some only wanted new underwear, socks. or shoes. Some wanted nothing for themselves. Some just asked for warm coats for their mothers. We managed to fill a lot of those requests.

There are so many forms of welfare. It's not just welfare but other handouts as well. There are many people who have held their hands out and been conditioned to see it filled. Yes, I know I can't encompass all, but there are those who have a nice ring on that hand with manicured nails and a cell phone on the hip and then go out to a nice car. It happens and it is irritating. Have I seen it first hand? Yes, I have. Do I think all these people have simply fallen on hard times? No, I don't. Many have expectations now and feel entitled. Free daycare for babies having babies at their school, free or reduced housing, free meds, social security for grandparents raising grandchildren, free funerals at the end. But it's all ok, those of us who make good decisions, work hard, pay their taxes, mortgages, self support, etc can just keep getting it taken away to "help" others. Tired of it myself.

dl

We've adopted families in my office in the past and at first I was put off by some of the young kids that wanted Gameboys or Wiis or whatever, but someone else pointed out that it's highly unlikely that a 7 year old even has any idea what those cost. He just knows it's the cool game and he wants something decent and cool like all the other kids. Instead of being annoyed after that, I felt really badly for the kids when we couldn't provide that.

Welfare is not eternal and one day those babies having babies and getting free daycare will be working three jobs trying to put food on the table and pay the rent.

Since when is Social Security, something you contribute to your entire working life, considered a "handout?" Even millionaires collect these benefits.

Welfare - MSN Encarta Interesting link

Development of the Modern U.S. Welfare System
"U.S. president Franklin D. Roosevelt led a social and economic reform movement as a response to the depression. Part of his New Deal program was the Social Security Act, enacted by Congress in 1935. This act and its 1939 amendments established a number of social welfare programs, each designed to provide support for different segments of the population. Programs included Old-Age and Survivors’ Insurance (OASI) for retired people and their families (to which disability insurance was added in 1954, forming OASDI); Unemployment Compensation for those who lost work temporarily; Aid to Dependent Children (ADC), later known as Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC); and grants to states to provide medical care. In 1946 the government created the Social Security Administration (SSA) to oversee the provisions of the act.

I just thought I would add my two cents... I do know quite a few on welfare, family, friends and such. Some have definately taken advantage of the system and continue to do so, however others were forced into becoming single moms, with ex's who've cheated and left them with the 3 kids, or are in jail or such. Those who have done that have done amazing things in order to get them selves off welfare. They've gone to school which was paid for, but in the end, they were off welfare, so it farred better for the state to pay for their schooling. The others abusing the system do have multiple kids by multiple fathers(definately the stereotypical welfare mom), work for a few months then get back on the welfare... What a lot of people don't talk about are the types of "welfare" that's really not considered welfare, but should be. Bankruptcy... There are a lot of people "keeping up with the Jone's" and get into debt that WE all end up paying for, and these are the people making 6 figures, but can't figure out how to live within their means... How is this really any different, besides we are paying for their lavish vacations, and jet skies?

Social Security paid to grandparents raising their grandchildren, I do consider a handout when the parents should be taking care of these kids ! This is skipping a generation who did NOT work their entire life!

dl

Are you saying that if a grandparent is raising a grandchild that their social security benefits should be terminated?

No. I realize sometimes the written word doesn't come through as clearly as if we were having a conversation. I will try one more time, I had written: Social Security paid to grandparents raising their grandchildren, I do consider a handout when the parents should be taking care of these kids ! This is skipping a generation who did NOT work their entire life!

If the parents are dead, missing, coke addicts or in jail -- then what should happen? Put the kids in jail with the parents or something? You think it's appropriate to punish the children for the parents' sins?

This link might explain somewhat

Kids and Families: Benefits for Grandchildren

If the parents are dead, then typically the minors are entitled, even if the parents ( and rare for both parents of minor children to be dead ) don't have the required minimum 10 quarters. If the parents are missing, coke addicts or in jail, I don't know that I have the answer, except that I am tired of the system paying and paying and paying. Social security was desiged to supplement, not support.

We've made it far too easy for someone else to take care of our responsibilities. Entitlement.

dl

Thank you for the link. Note the word gnerally is used. This helps open the "requirements" up.

(not to op, just in gerneral) I have to work my 10 quarters and yet others do not! While noble for any grandparent to step in and raise their grandchildren, once again we are giving a handout. It is not the grandparent's responsibility to do this, it is the parent's. And go ahead, blast away, but in some cases, we have grandparents who couldn't raise their children (obviously) to be responsible and now they get another generation to play around with.

I've often thought that there are many things regulated, voting, driving, drinking, that maybe, just maybe having a baby should be. Look, we might be moving in that direction with all the freedoms we are losing, as well as the proposed restaurant ban on obese people. Maybe there should be regulations on who has children. Now there's one to think about !

dl

Have you looked at what social security pays? It's not supporting anyone.

well not sure where you came up with it only provides for 2 yrs I guess thats a general rule but thier are ways around it I know people who have been on it longer than that because they are in "school" they get everything paid for & live better than I do I had a so called friend who said she wouldnt live on this side of town well excuse me I paid for my house she lives in free housing in a great area & she even gets gas money to get back & forth to school btw she has been on the system 7yrs & has it really figured out she had a great job for a very short time but she was so immature they fired her & she has a 4yr degree now going for her docterine or something & no one will hire her so she keeps going to school I dont think its fair at all then I have a cousin also on it & yes she has 4 kids all babies 3,2,1 & a new baby is she working the system you bet why I have no idea I guess her parents didnt teach her any other way

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mom of 3 greats girls

I used to work in the Child Welfare system in Virginia. I have first hand experience working with welfare clients. No, the welfare payments are not alot, however alot of welfare clients also live in subsidized housing and might only pay $25 a month for rent, then they would also qualify for food stamps the amount increases with the more family members you have, as does the welfare payment increase with how many family members there are (most do have a cut off I think it was 8 kids then it doesn't get any higher, could be different now). Also qualify for WIC for the younger kids and the kids also qualify for free medical care, free lunches, etc. Plus they would be eligible to go to use the food bank and church food closets because of their income level. Now why would anyone want to go to work at McDonalds and get paid $7 an hour and lose all these benefits and have no free time? No one in their right mind really. Although they would receive day care at that point and the kids would still receive free lunch. They would then have to move into regular cost housing, actually pay for their food, no welfare payments, etc. They would actually be worse off going to work, unless they were able to get a much higher paying job that requires an education. Then they could go to school for free, keep all their benefits, get free day care, etc.

I really resent all my tax dollars going to pay for all these programs. We work, we pay taxes everytime we get paid, then on April 15th we write a check and pay more taxes. Our taxes go to pay for these programs (among a bunch of other things too). We hold jobs so we can have health insurance and dental insurance (don't even get me started on Universal Health Care). The system has been messed up for years. I guess part of it has to do with my backround, I had my first child when I was 16, I stayed in school, I never used any welfare programs except WIC, I never used day care, food stamps, nothing. I worked after school to pay for things, my family helped me with babysitting. Then I went straight to college, on scholarships, still never went on any welfare, worked a job (worked in a day care center so I could get half price rates for my child) and sold Avon, also sold plasma to make ends meet and buy food and pay rent. After I got through college I never really had a problem getting a job, got one right away, made sure it had good health care benefits, etc. So I know it can be done, because I did it. It depends on how bad you want it. I don't have a problem with people getting help if they lose their job or it's temporary, but for someone to get welfare services for an undetermined amount of time (I don't know of any cut off time) , I do have a prolem with that (unless they are disabled, have mental health problems or are elderly that is an exception to me). But if you are able to work, then I think you should be working.

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One thing that ticks me off is the so called friend I had who was on it had 50/50 with thier dad on visitation he basically had them half the month then they were in headstart & daycare which state also paid for so she had them about 15 nights if that heck thats if her parents didnt watch them which usually they did her dad grandpa took them one weekend & her mom grandma took them one weekend a month so she had them what 8 nights a month for supper & that was it she got like $500 or more a month in foodstamps which she didnt use so she would take a sister or someone else she knew shopping & sell the food to them or they would buy her something NOT FAIR AT ALL I couldnt be friends with someone like that I had to disconnect I think thats really very screwy!!! The system is screwed up like that too why couldnt the dad get half the foodstamps or why didnt they consider well they are with him half the time she only needs half the money ya know

Oh yes & another thing to ponder same person would let her mom claim her & her kids so the grandmother claimed EIC because the mother doesnt work now how fair really is all of this & its all glitches in our system

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I agree there are "glitches" in the system but the above scenerio wouldn't be possible without the collusion of the grandparents, ex-husband and sister, all of whom are "in" on scamming the system. In a perfect world if and when she gets caught. your friend and all those who knowlingly participated in the rip-off should be responsible for paying back some or all of what she received.

I was born into an upper middle class family and my life has been much easier than yours. My parents were able to put myself and my three sisters through college easily. On the other hand, my life has not been as easy as Paris Hilton. She has done quite well for someone who did not even finish high school.
I have always had good jobs with good benefits. I was able to put my son through college easily although he did receive an academic scholarship.

I am glad that you were able to beat the odds and go to college. I am also glad that taxpayers were able to provide you with assistance when you needed it. I would also be willing to bet that your family was able to provide you with support. Others aren't as lucky.

The problem is poverty itself and how we, as a society, can address it. Neither receiving the meager assistance offerred by Social Services nor the $7/hour job at Burger King is going to get anybody out of poverty. With the latter option, the welfare recipient would have the cost of daycare, transportation and other excpenses thrown in. We all know that women shouldn't have children when they cannot afford to support them, but, as you know firsthand, it happens every day.

Bill Clinton ran an exp-eriment while he was in office. He moved welfare recipients into middle class neighborhoods. It didn't do a thing for thing for the parents. However, the kids did well in school and most went on to college. We obviously cannot do that with everybody.

How do we improve the schools enough in poverty stricken neighborhoods that kids want to succeed. How can we assure a living wage as we switch from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy? How exactly do we assure that everyone in this country has access to the same opportunities? I'm not sure just how much education one needs to work at Burger King.

As a country, we face some tough times ahead. I just think we can do a better job in addressing poverty.

I do think some American do cheat the system but I am more upset with the illegal immigrants that take advantage of the American taxpayer.

If We Subsidize Them...

"Costs of social services for the estimated 21 million illegal immigrants in this country are approaching $400 billion. We educate 4.2 million children of illegals at a cost of $13.8 billion. There have been almost 2 million anchor babies born in this country since 2002, with labor and delivery costs of between $3 and 6 billion. There are currently 360,000 illegals in our prisons and we have spent $1.4 billion to incarcerate them since 2001"

This such a complicated problem. I don't think the majority of illegal immigrants are coming here for the benefits available. It might be simplistic but IMO if the jobs weren't available we would have much less of a problem with illegal immigration. If appropriate fines and even jail time were levied against companies and inviduals who hired illegals I think the problem would be lessened to a great degree.

As an aside, I think the idea of a border fence is almost laughable -- lowest bid will win the contract and guess who will likely be hired to build the fence

Ummm...couple of issues w/ the above:
1) why didn't YOU report her for the abuse and fraud? If it so ticked you off--you should have said something to the proper authorities. If you didn't then you are guilty by association.
2) I find it hard to believe that the grandparent(s) was able to claim them as dependents unless they had legal custody of the minor children, and I certainly have a difficult time believing that an of age adult could be considered a dependent--especially if she was receiving govt. subsidies.
3) How many kids did she have? $500 seems a bit excessive unless she had a lot of kids, and even then there is a cap on the amount one receives for subsidies.

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I agree with you regarding the emphasis should be put on stopping the employers from hiring illegals in the first place.

As bad as NAFTA was for the USA, it's even worse for Mexicans. Subsistence farmers in Mexico cannot sell their corn locally, or anywhere else, because heavily subsidized American corn is so much cheaper. Another problem for Mexicans is their government. Only the wealthy elites ever run for office. Although they make all kinds of promises, they never keep them. They don't have to. Mexico's elected officials are subject to term limits and will never face re-election. They are not above taking bribes from businesses.

These "anchor" babies are Americans. Thay have the same rights as all of us.

well the dhs here dont care what people do they will tell you unless you can prove things sorry how can I prove things I would love for people like that to get busted but it just dont happen & as for who her mom claimed she claimed the kids for sure not sure about her but since shes a student couldnt she??? And as for $500 in foodstamps yes please look it up thats how much you get for one parent & 2 kids family of 3

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