Senator Obama was in Portland today and it's estimated that 75,000 people attended the rally. I live here and I'm stunned at the size of the crowd. He brought Michelle and the girls -- I'll bet the little ones were amazed.

Rally for Barack Obama draws roughly 75,000 to Waterfront Park | KATU.com - Portland, Oregon | News

Impressive pictures..especially the bottom one in the article.

HItler drew crowds like this too??????? Sickening.....Sherri

__________________
"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

I'm guessing you were upset to have missed those.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

You have to wonder what kind of brain can produce such convoluted thinking.

I am hoping like heck that you couldn't read what you wrote here or that you have had a brain bleed or a temporary lapse of sanity or some other logical excuse for why you wrote this.....comparing this crowd gathering to hear a Presidential Candidate speak to a crowd Hitler gathered??????

I do not like to judge people but you are making this far toooo easy for me not to judge you. Please get a grip.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Benazhir Bhutto
Mahatma Ghandi
Mother Teresa
The Pope

All of these people have drawn large huge crowds, but in no way could they be likened to Hitler.

Some people show up out of curosity, some show up to start trouble, and some have a genuine interest in what the person has to say.

You are so far out in left field that it scares me

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I think you're starting with a false premise on that one.

As a matter of fact I have had a brain bleed and three blood clots on my brain..so I dont appreciate your analogy You should be careful what you say to people... You have no idea what its like until you have actually been there,,,,I dont wish it on anyone.....Do you say "Wow that person must have had deadly cancer to be thinking like that??? It was and is a very serious situation for me and I dont appreciate people making light of it or using it with such sarcasim...I really dont care how you judge me... But I can assure you that it has had NO affect on my thinking...People started out think Hitler was good and look what happened....I am just not drinking the kool aid here....I believe Barack has made many questionable statements, he has been involved with very questionable people, and to think he sat 20 years under this racist, crazy pastor and didnt "know" about his statements...then when he saw that wasnt going to fly he denounced his statements to a point but he continued to take up for him.......I have a white pastor and if talked like that about the USA or african american people I wouldnt set in ONE more service....I believe Barack and his wife are both racist and I dont believe his true colors will show until he is in office....He scares me...He has stated in his books that he will take the side of muslims.....Think what you will of me but I dont want the white house turned into a mosque. He thinks you can set down and talk to radical muslims who blow themselves up on the streets

Now he says "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK..What kind of stupid statement is that????? Since when did we have to ask the world’s permission to do whatever we want???

Now he is whining because the Tennessee GOP said some things about his wife....His quote

"These folks should lay off my wife," Obama told ABC News, hitting out at a Tennessee Republican Party ad questioning the patriotism of his wife, a driven Ivy League-educated lawyer and mother of their two daughters.

"If they think that they're going to try to make Michelle an issue in this campaign, they should be careful, because that I find unacceptable, the notion that you start attacking my wife or my family," Obama said

Be careful...what does that mean??? Is that a threat of some kind???? She has made herself an issue in this campaign..going around stumping for her husband and she had made some very controversail remarks of her own...For the first time in her life, she is proud of her country??? Isnt that funny she is proud of the US until her hubby is running for President!!! She has said Americans are lazy, mean people....SHe needs to learn if she cant take it, dont dish it out...she seems like a very bitter person to me.....

Of course its one set of rules for Barack and Michelle and another set for everyone else....Sherri the Dummy because she has had brain bleeds

__________________
"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Sigh......I reserve the right to comment later when I am no longer speechless.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

(sher218) .. this link from a HISTORY class is very interesting. Uncanny

The History of Hitler - The Irony of It All

"He started using powerful propaganda that would eventually become known as The Big Lie. The theory behind the Big Lie was that the masses would believe a big lie more than they would belive a little lie, if they heard it often enough. Hitler bombarded the people with talk of peace, nonviolence and a strong unified Germany,"

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Just because the liberals here on this board come running to defend Obama everytime he speaks doesn't make the opinions of others stupid or questionable. Just because you support Obama doesn't make you experts on everything (even though I agree you act like 'know it alls' and love to call people names and hurt people's feelings.) I agree that Obama is someone who should be looked at and looked at carefully. He says nothing but yet has flocks of thousands jumping to see him. It amazes me at how the libs on this board all jumped ship on Hillary (after thinking a few years ago that the Clintons could do no wrong) and now support Obama.

As for Obama making statements that make me say 'huh', yes, he's made quite a few. I wonder what he means when he made the statement about the SUV's, our food we eat and what other countries feel about that. Is he going to try to take away our freedoms for the sake of other countries, so they won't be angry at us? Heck, the guy doesn't even know how many states we have in the U.S.!! The other day he said we had 57 states!! He keeps taking about change. Change, change, change. But what change? Obama seems to have all the right answers. He says what people want to hear and they all act like they're under a spell. Searching for answers, people turn to a man who 'says' he has the answers. Scary. Hillary wants to debate him (without mods and the way it's been done in the past), but Obama refuses to do it. I think it's because he's afraid to do it because he won't know the right answers.

So someone said something you don't agree with -- that's no reason to call the poster names.

BTW, President Bush has been called a lot worse than Hitler on these boards from some of you!!

so wait. ROFLOL. Let me get this straight. The same folks who got mad at what Wright said a few weeks ago are now defending someone comparing Obama to Hitler. The man who MURDERED millions of Jews, gypsies, Russians, etc. in order to make the white race more pure? That's ok? She's got a right to her opinion. But...

OMG, how funny. Thanks for that laugh. ROFLOL. Good one. Man. Y'all are hilarious.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I didn't necessarily consider it a comparison. I thought the point was that just because someone draws a huge crowd doesn't make him right. Why does everything have to turn so personal...??? Deal with what is said, why take ugly swipes at ppl??


Melissa

If one reads the OP---it is just commenting on how large the crowd was. Didn't mention right/wrong, good/bad, etc.

No one said anything positive or negative UNTIL the comparison was made to Hitler. Hitler was Satan incarnate and even as much as I detest "Dubya" I'd never compare him to Hitler!

If the point was that just because someone draws a huge crowd it doesn't make him right, then how about just bluntly say that!?

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

google "news articles about Obama compared to Hitler"

This has been in the news media. Something that Obama's crowd will probaly have to deal with in the coming months.

You don't think comparing Obama to Hitler in his ability to draw crowds made it personal??

Anyone who's spent more than a few hours on the internet knows what bringing Hitler into the conversation does.

The kind of people that compare Obama to Hitler are the kind of people that are never going to vote for a Democrat anyway.

Besides, you can't "deal" with willful stupidity.

Certainly not personal to anyone here.

I think you're wrong. It was meant to be a personal attack on the Obama supporters and to deny that, IMO, is to deny the obvious.

Out come the comment police again....

Isn't this a discussion board?? Were we only supposed to make "approved" comments?? What would those have been? "Nice crowd". "Wow, I can't believe that many ppl showed up?" " Wow, I can' t believe there were only 75.000 ppl" "look at the weird guy in the one pic" blah blah blah.

Ppl have opinions that differ. We can never know where a thread will go.......we should all know that by now. But the poster's comments were not directed at anyone in particular. Just a comment. I didn't particularly like Hitler being used, but I got it and moved on. Again, WHY make it personal?? UGH!!!

Melissa

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion....lol....I don't happen to scrutinize every comment made to see if someone was trying to attack me or something I believe in. I'm just not that paranoid. And btw.....I do deny it.

Melissa

Well Obama's supporters better get use to worst then this in the next couple on months.
Politics is not nice. Lots more to endure if the "rumor mill" proves true.

That doesn't surprise me.

And what "rumor mill" trash is that, exactly?

you just can't help yourself, can you truble? lol

Melissa

I guess I'm just that "paranoid," as you said.

I couldnt have said it better myself!!!!! You are soooo right....stupid people are so hard to deal with, especially when you cant get them to see it your way!!!!! Stupid, Stupid, Stupid people When we they ever learn, that if you dont agree with them, they are stupid Sherri

__________________
"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Not going to say..until the story breaks in the news media..otherwise just a big explosive "rumor".

I guess that I must be remembering wrong. Bush never had a crowd of people come to hear him speak? McCain is just speaking at diners limiting his crowds to 15 or so, right? Ron Paul (?) has never had a crowd hear him speak, I guess he uses the internet to spread his word. I am betting that Hitler would use the internet if he had it back then to spread his special message.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Yes, just a big, trashy, unsubstantiated rumor.

Rumors are aometimes proven true... example Rev. Wright.

You should either step up to the plate with this fascinating, race-changing information you supposedly have or stop using innuendo.

No one ever said Rev. Wright was a rumor.

I only said this is a "RUMOR". Rumors are always going around on the internet..but you wanted to hear it.

Seems like there is a video tape of Michelle Obama ranting against "whitey" at their church.

Garling Gauge GOP Rumor: Michelle Obama “Whitey” Video Lurks

The bad thing is..I do not find it hard to believe that she did say something like that.

Speaking of Hitler:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power | World news | The Guardian

__________________
@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

We know. we've been dealing w/ them for the past 8 years.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Nope not "comment police", but when anyone uses phrasing/words that aren't quite clear in the meaning and can be interpreted any variety of ways, I've always found it to be best to just be BLUNT and To The Point....

that way, there is less a chance of something said innocently enough getting blown out of proportion.

And frankly, I actually agree w/ Sher218 in regards to some of her observations about Mr. Obama. I just think that comparing Obama to Hitler is not going to help her win any arguments or convert anyone to her rationale...

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

What's the difference between rumors and lies?

First of all, I do not think that any lib on this board ever believed that the Clinton's were angels. You should know that we do not make very good followers. Sen. Clinton voted for the invasion of Iraq and that is a mistake that has caused more than a million deaths. It's also very hard to overlook.

Second, you must not keep up with the news. SUV's get notoriously bad gas mileage. We still use more oil than any other country, but China and India are quickly catching up. Gas is never going to be cheap again. Nothing we can do, whether drilling in the Arctic to ship oil to Asia or drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, is going to lower the price of gas. Most Americans aren't going to be able to afford gas guzzlers. Yes, I think that our lifestyles are going to have to change.
I don't for a minute believe that Obama doesn't know how many states we have. You cannot argue the fact that he is extremely intelligent and well educated. It's not like he went to Harvard on a legacy. He excelled in school.

You really don't have a whole lot of freedoms left to lose. I don't think you need to worry about that. Obama will restore those freedoms that you have lost.

Bush's foreign policy looks a lot like Godzilla's to me. For what we have done in Iraq, we are hated. More of the McSame isn't going to help one little bit. Both domestically and abroad, Bush is simply the worst president that this country has ever had.

As far as Obama's refusal to debate, he and Clinton have already done it to death.

As far as change goes, Bush's tax cuts will be allowed to expire. We will repair our relations with other nations. We will again enforce industry regulation. You'll get a raise.

My goodness, if all Obama supporters are of the same mind as the above quote, then get the kool-aid ready. Yes, I sure do keep up with the news. Yes, I know SUV's get bad gas mileage, but so do other vehicles. If someone wants to drive an SUV and has the money to put the gas in, that's their business because THIS IS AMERICA. This is still America and it is the business of no other countries what we in America do as far as what we drive, what we eat, etc. Obama supporters actually think Obama can repair relations with other nations simply by sitting down and having tea and conversation? These are people who think nothing of strapping bombs on disabled people, children and women and blowing up people! Yes, we DO have a lot of freedoms to lose. If Obama becomes president, I'm afraid we will lose a lot of our freedoms. What 'freedoms' are you speaking of that the 'all great and knowing Obama' will restore to us??
And I'll get a raise, you say, if Obama is elected. Wow, he really has you people fooled.

IMO, this is exactly the kind of attitude that spurred the 9/11 attacks.

Thus conversely the USofA should stay the hell out of other countries' business....We (the USofA) is not omnipotent, all seeing, all knowing country! Who are we to invade another country and tell them that their beliefs are wrong? I mean really!

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Exactly!! But be prepared for an argument from the drinkers of the kool-aid served up by Mr. Bush and his minions.

My dear, Certainly this is America. What I am saying is that most of its citizens will never be able to afford the gas to put in the gas guzzlers. We import 60% of all the oil that's used here. There are countries that are encouraging us to produce less pollution. The Middle East, however, is laughing all the way to the bank. The sad fact is that the supply of oil is limited and you can safely bet that the cost of gas will just go up and up.

Frankly, Toots, I'm a little scared of what America is eating.

Obama is far smarter than what we have in the White House now. I do not expect to him to treat other countries with disdain. I do not expect him to violate international treaties. I do not expect him to threaten other countries with obliteration based on manufactured allegations. I do not expect Obama to kill hundreds of thousands of people based on lies. I do expect him to drink tea on occasion. But, I believe that the entire world will breathe a collective sigh of relief that America has returned to sanity.

By the way, none of the suicide bombers were disabled. The two women you refer to had their heads blown off. Somebody thought that the looked like they might have Down's Syndrome. They did not. Propaganda you know!

I do expect Obama to restore habeus corpus. There's no doubt that he'll stop the data mining program. We'll be free to go about our business without being spied on without warrants. What on earth would make you say that Obama would take away your right to do as you choose? Do you think that he'll force prayer in school?

I don't think that Obama is anything other than a man. He's a democrat and that's why your standard of living will improve.

(kvmj)"He's a democrat and that's why your standard of living will improve."

NOT TRUE. The last time a democrat was president my DH lost his high paying job due to NAFTA (Democrat deal). My standard of living went to nothing in a heartbeat.

NAFTA is a product of the right.

Then you should be happy that both Obama and Clinton want to reform NAFTA.

What did Bush do for you on NAFTA over the past seven years, six of them with a GOP controlled Congress?

President Clinton signed the agreement.

That's hysterical. A GOP president created it and it was passed primarily by members of the GOP, but you're mad at Clinton for signing it??

Please look at your history..once again democrats in denial.

Please, what have I misstated?

Please note: President Clinton pushed for it.

"In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]"


*****The point I was making in my other post..it is NOT TRUE that everyone's standard of living will increase JUST because a Dem. is in charge.

OMG, you've GOT to be kidding!

Wow, Obama has really snowed you guys! But I highly doubt he'll be our next President. There's too many out there that don't like the way the liberals do things (or lack of doing things).

If you people think that another 9/11 can't happen, I think you've got your head in the sand. If it wasn't for the eavesdropping and things that are going on behind the scenes in our government that the normal public doesn't know about, we'd probably already have had one.

If you think other nations will start 'loving' America just because we change a few ways, then I think you're highly mistaken. America is land of the free -- that's what the terrorists hate. They hate our way of living, our way of thinking and our alliance with Israel. That's one of the main things.

Having Obama in office won't change that.

Bush pushed it first. Once again, I ask: what did I misstate?

Not remotely.

Who said that? No one. How do you help your argument by simply making things up?

Which is exactly what I said that you took issue with and rolled your eyes at.

It is true that Clinton could have vetoed the bill, Newt had the votes to overcome the veto.

Bush has pretty much destroyed the Republican brand. I am always going to be amazed that it took Americans this long to wake up. Conservative policies have failed.

Most liberals believe that another 9/11 is more likely because of President Godzilla. You are absolutely 100% wrong that "they" hate us for our way of life. They hate us for the things that our government has done to them. The illegal wiretapping and datamining has produced nothing. Our government has done some terrible things in our name. In the past, the rest of the world was able to separate the American people from its government. Muslims are people just like you and me.

We have been incredibly uneven handed in dealing with the Israel Palestinian issue. Obama will be far fairer in dealing with this issue.

Rather than rolling your eyes, why don't you try opening them?

The fact of the matter is simple.
A democract was President, my Dh lost a job making over $25 a hour (also making time and half..for overtime). My standard of living dropped to nothing.

So, please do not think JUST because a democrat is elected President your standard of living is going up. The opposite still may be true.
The last time a democratic was in charge was the WORST financial time in my married life. The total HELL I went thur..so please do not say I do not know what I am talking about..I lived thur it.

A Republican is president, my yard has chickweed. I totally get the connection you're making!

Still waiting for you to tell me what you claim I misstated.

You did not misstate BUT you do not accept the fact that a Demcrat president made this a top issue to get pushed thur.


But, actually I believe the economy is gone too far. I do not think any of the top 3 candidates understand what is happening. There is no quick, easy fix.

Where did I not accept that? Please point to the exact post. I pointed out that it wasn't as cut and dried as you seem to want to claim.

I'm glad to see you admit you were wrong when you claimed I misstated the facts.

It came across to me that you was trying to pass most of the blame unto the GOP while ignoring the part that a democrat president played. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Nothing is cut and dried. Excatly what I was trying to point out to the other poster. You can not use a blanket statment saying standard of living will go up just because Obama is a democrat.

The standard of living is always better under Democrats than Republicans. There are always going to be a few who miss out.

I thought that you would be a huge advocate of unrestricted, unregulated free trade. It's Ron Paul's position.

I disagree that the standard of living is better with a Democrat in power. For some maybe..for some better when a Republican in charge.

NAFTA is not "free trade". It is very controlled. One-sided with American workers getting the short end of the stick.
" I believe in free trade, but this is not free trade. This is regulated, managed trade for the benefit of special interests. That is why I oppose it." Ron Paul quote

Not what I said at all. Don't assume.

And again, I ask -- where did I say that??

Stop making things up and respond to what was said, not what you wish had been said!

(I was talking about another poster...clearly I stated that)
"Nothing is cut and dried. Excatly what I was trying to point out to the other poster. You can not use a blanket statment saying standard of living will go up just because Obama is a democrat."

Ok to clear it up so that I do not assume anything. Do YOU (truble2301) think that Bill Clinton and other democrats are in part responsibile for NATFA?

In that Democrats did nothing to stop Nafta, they have to accept some of the responsibility.

No, you didn't. That's another misstatement on your part.

If you can't even be honest about your previous comments and my previous comments, I see no point in responding to you any further.

"Excatly what I was trying to point out to the other poster"(Forrestlayne quote) ...that is not clear to you.
OK..I have been talking about (kvmj) post where she made this statement..."I don't think that Obama is anything other than a man. He's a democrat and that's why your standard of living will improve."

No misstatement on my part I never said you (truble2301) said the above quote.

My question to you from my above post. (forrestlayne)
"Ok to clear it up so that I do not assume anything. Do YOU (truble2301) think that Bill Clinton and other democrats are in part responsibile for NATFA?"

Toots!?!?!

Love it. I thought I was the only one that used that one anymore....

And before all of you start jumping on the NAFTA is a horrible thing bandwagon, I think you should really look at the ins-and-outs of it and how it really effects the American economy. It isn't as cut and dry as one would think it is. I've only spent the better half of my career dealing with international trade and still am boggled by NAFTA. It fact, it is such a complicated program that many businesses don't even bother with it and continue to pay the inflated tax rather than try and secure the discount. The perception is that it changed the world as we know it, when in reality it didn't have that much impact at all.

And as far as standard of living...times were tough for me in the Reagan years, when Bush Sr. was in office and the shift in the House/Sen went to the Dem, things were pretty good...I did exceptionally well when Clinton was in office and there was a heavily populated Repub House/Sen...........and now I am paying $4 for gas and watching the economy tank. I think we give too much credit to the power of the President and not enough notice to what is coming out of Congress and from the Cabinet. We've had some real jokers running the show lately. They have been more worried about their own PERSONAL agenda than doing what they were elected to do....that is to create balance and a true representation of what the average American needs.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be happy with either McCain or Obama in office if it meant that the country was safe and stablized economically. But the damage that was done in the last few years is going to take a lot of cleaning up....and frankly, I'm not confident that anyone is going to able to fix this in the next 4-8 years.

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Kelliiii ...(NAFTA)"The perception is that it changed the world as we know it, when in reality it didn't have that much impact at all."

It did change "the world" for the 680 employees at the mill my husband worked out.
Maybe not impact the world but when you are the one going thur it ..you remember too well..who was President in office at that time.

While I feel your pain and in turn, I have been with 3 different companines that had mass layoffs or closed their doors completely....my "world" hasn't just been changed, it's been rocked....the truth is NAFTA didn't close the door on your husband, the company he worked for made the economic decision to close their doors and move on. NAFTA is simply a choice, not forced policy....

...and if you want to really get technical, the first drafts/proposal of NAFTA (before it was called NAFTA) came out of the Reagan years....driven by lobbists...most likely people paid to represent the same industry your husband worked. NAFTA was not a creation driven by the office of the President....it was driven from American business over-whelmed by the economy of the 80's looking to find a way to avoid a recession causing them to force their doors. NAFTA encompasses only Mexico and Canada's relationship with the US. The real culprate of the 90's is we didn't plan for China, Japan and a change in India allowing it to become a player most recently. The media cried NAFTA back in the 90's, because they didn't even understand what it meant.

My point is....if you need to blame someone for the reason your husband and 681 people (I'm counting myself, because it happened to me to) lost jobs during the Clinton admin, get your facts straight.

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

I do have my facts striaght Bill Clinton did SIGN NAFTA into LAW.
It may have not been his total idea..but his name is on the law.

Wow.

Just another example where I'm fascinated with people and how they think.

I sometimes wonder what it would be like to live life with such a basic way of looking at things. Maybe life would be simpler...

...Nah. I spent too much time and brain power getting to where I am today. Why go backwards?

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Life is simple to understand ..the bottom line DH was making over 62,000 one year ... the next we filed taxes on less than 7,000.
Yes my whole "world" changed in an instant.
Whose fault is it... the people that made the LAW..who was that ..Bill Clinton signed it into LAW.

It's bound to be simpler to view life without pesky things like facts getting in the way, don't you think?

Only elitist like making things too complicated when things are indeed very simple. Most of the problems facing America has simple answers..but no one wants to believe that.

Anyone else find it funny to hear folks toss out elitist like it's a bad thing?

Definition:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

Kelliiii you elitist! hahaha!

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

It is a bad thing when you talk down to people just because YOU THINK you are so much smarter.

edited to add: (jaded) where is your "compassion" someone tells you what life was like living thur a hard time because of a policy put in place by a democratic president.
Even Obama disagrees with Bill Clinton about NAFTA. He says it has hurt America..or is this just talk.

Well, first, that's called being condescending, not being an elitist.

Second, could you please show me ANY post where I said or have shown no compassion about your husband losing his job? I searched and could not find it. And guess what? You're not the only one to have fallen on hard times. These past 8 years have brought most of America to its knees. I believe we've been brought here by a REPUBLICAN president. I'm trying to remember what your beloved republicans have done to get rid of NAFTA. Oh, wait, Bush LIKES it. He thinks it's done good stuff for America.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I brought up the "compassion" part because you have told me at loeast twice that I remember that I need to get some compassion. Last time was on a post on "the Cafe" section.

Eveyone on here wants to look the other way when something is told that they do not like about their party or who they voted for.

And by the way just because I am a Republican does not mean I voted for Bush. There are others parties to vote for when you do not like the 2 major candidates.
The person I like this time has voted against the war, voted against funding the war, has introduced bills to get rid of NAFTA, CAFTA and other things. No he will not get a chance at being president but he will still be in Congress working to improve America.

There were tax breaks for companies to take their companies out of the country. My husband works for a company that closed plants because of this fact and they recieved massive tax breaks and the employees who were displaced recieved training that was government paid for to change employment fields.

The President who signed it into policy did not tell whatever mill or company to shutter its doors and move the company to whereever putting people out of work. The anger is misplaced. The COMPANYdecided to take advantage of the various perks that went with closing that plant/mill. They could go out of the country and start the company again without paying their employees high wages.....insurance....retirement.....All things that cost a company as much as 1/2 again the employee in the US's salary especially with a union plant. Plus, now they get tax breaks to bring that product back into the country.

That mill/plant board of directors is who needs to be blamed because no one forced them to move their company out of the country and close your husband and your future. But I believe that no company owes its employees anything except a paycheck to their employees for time worked and they have the right to close any plant/mill and/or move it at their will to make money for their shareholders.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

To make myself as clear as possible..The reason I brought it up is because "some" people have stated that since Obama is a democrat the standard of living will go up for EVERYONE.
Which is not true. Some people benfit from a democrat president others do not.

I believe it was both the Dem and Rep. that agree to things. But when the President signs something into law, I would think he agrees with it.

And by the way I think the same thing about the war..it is not JUST ONLY republicans that voted for and continue to fund the war. Democrats also have to take some blame.

While I understand this line of reasoning, I don't think it goes far enough.

If one company tried to be a hold-out and insist on only doing business in America, refusing to go to Mexico and trying to protect jobs for its employees, there is a very slim chance they could've pulled it off.

As soon as one company heads south to Mexico, that company can offer the same product at a much lower price.

If they can produce Widget A for $1 and sell it for $10, they'll have a much better chance of keeping their doors open than an American-only company that has to expend $9 to produce Widget A, who can barely make any profit at all at $10 for the same item.

Regardless of the origins of the widgets they all have to compete for the same customer. And those who can't win customers can't stay open.

But it's complicated.

The reason Mexicans cross the borders in droves is because they want a better quality of life. I don't pretend to know anything about the Mexican economy, other than that it's worse than ours. If NAFTA makes it better for them in the long run, will does that have the potential to help their economy? Are their problems ingrained in culture and related to work ethic? Or governmental policies designed to keep a select few wealthy and in power?

BTW - I think of an elitist is someone who got that label because of the perceptions they seem to have about themselves, not because other people regard them as super-special.

They also call that narcissism...

I don't know much about the Mexican economy but my husband's company also opened in India, China, Brazil so Mexico is not the only country that benefited from NAFTA. But again, shareholders hold the CEO of a company to make money for them. If they do not do so, the board can fire them and hire someone who will.

In Micheal Moores movie, Roger and Me, he looks at the effect Roger Smith, CEO of GM's decision to close automotive plants in Flint, MI had on the town and community. He wanted Roger Smith to take responsibility for putting people out of work, out of their homes. It is not that simple. If we have a capitalistic society, then no company should have to keep open and not make money. If Micheal Moore wanted to blame someone, then maybe the blame should be spread around to the consumer who did not buy the cars, to the unions who demanded high wages, to the city government who did not offer tax incentives, to the power industry who did not make concessions (at least in my husband's company,this was a major reason they could not make money in the PNW). Because everyone is out to make money, everyone lost. But it all comes down to the dollar as the bottom line.

It doesn't matter which party signed the legislation, when it was signed it put more money on the table to be had and I don't blame companies for going after it......as a shareholder it is their fiduciary right and responsiblity to make me money. The legislation was bantered around for years before signed and it was designed for the very purpose of making big business richer. I don't like Wal Mart because they put small business owners out of business but in the end, when I am trying to feed my family, I have to go there because it makes money sense to shop there as prices are lower. It is the capitalistic way.

Is it right to expect a company to lose money to keep a plant open in America? Is it right for an employee to expect his/her company to keep them employed at any cost? Is that what is expected?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

If it was truly a free market economy that would be different.
Instead we have policy like (NAFTA and others) in place that give companies American tax dollars (incentivites, breaks) that make it more profitable to move to other countries. They move to other countries because of cheap, cheap labor. What has happened over the years is that no one has protected the American worker.
True a company can open and close a business. But when they do close it is not only those jobs that are lost, it effects the whole economy of the area. Other business are depended on the fact that others have a paycheck to spend.
Should not we protect are own workers first? This is just one reason the American economy is on the brink of disaster. We are no longer a nation that manufactors things, look around most everything we buy is made somewhere else.

Nowdays our government wants us to understand the global economy and sacrifice for the rest of the world. Instead of "helping" other countries rise up and achieve a good economy with a reasonable standard of living, we have taken away from the American worker to do that.

You know what, I'll take that......works for me.

Been called a heck of a lot worse!

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."