I'm interested in those who seem to believe that a politician's religious beliefs should carry over into his/her legislative duties. In the Senator Kennedy thread a poster said:

"His Catholic belief should come FIRST in his life and everything else follows AFTER that."

I'm curious to know how many feel that a politician's allegiance to his/her church takes precedence over our country's Constitution and laws? Are we not headed for a theocracy form of government with such beliefs?

Kennedy has a 100% score from NARAL on pro choice voting. This is in direct conflict with his proclaiming himself Catholic. I think everyone follows their core belief system in making decisions. Everyone tries to follow what they think is right or wrong and most peoples beliefs follow some code of ethics. They are not voting on a state sponsored religion or anything like that but I HOPE their religious beliefs help guide their lives and decisions.

Some religions teach God first in everything, then family, then job/country... yourself last.

I do think that your beliefs/values play a big part in a person's decisions. Should someone only decide on an issue because of one's church views..I do not think so. You come up with your own viewpoints based on things that you believe and draw on your life experiences.

I have run for public office and served for 12 years. I was elected by the people to represent them. It was incumbent of me to vote the wishes of the people who elected me. I represented them. I was also to take into consideration the best thing for the people of my community when I voted for an issue. I got input from others in my district as I was their voice. I imagine that Senator Kennedy, being very experienced a statesman and understanding the role of an elected official knows that he was representative of the people who elected him and therefore answered to them in his voting.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Yes, you may have to answer to your voting public but you ultimately have to answer to God.

I believe that they do carry over. How could they not? I think that is what makes a person who they are and what they are willing to "fight" for. I don't understand how a person could put aside their own personal views in this type of situation.

Hypothetical situation: You are pro-choice. You are running for the position of President of the US. What do you base your "stand" on? What the people that elected you want??? You haven't been elected you. You have to pick a "stand", your core beliefs. I am pro-choice, choosing life. However, I would not campaign to make abortion illegal, it goes against my personal beliefs.

Now, if we are talking about someone such as a judge, that is different. There MUST be a seperation of their beliefs and the way they interpret (sp?) the law.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

And that is between me and my God. And no one else.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

"Do you really think that the Pope tells us how to vote? Please link where that is."

Found this bit of info:

Pope faces gay vote test | NEWS.com.au

It does seem to me he is telling people how to vote, but, I could be wrong.

Also found this about politicians voting for abortion:

Catholic World News : Pro-abortion politicians excluded from Communion: Pope

I'm not bashing anyone's religion, or asking anyone to justify why they are the religion that they are. Just wanted to address some issues from the other thread regarding politics and religion.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Getting back to Catholics. If a Catholic cannot vote for a pro choice candidate, they would have to stay home. The Catholic church opposes the death penalty, and Republicans firmly support the death penalty.

I actually know a lot of pro choice Republicans.

Yes, that is correct. However, if you are a Catholic, especially a high profile one, you better be voiting pro-life. If God is the ultimate judge, which as a Christian you should believe, then you better follow His rules first. Who will judge you when you die-your constiuents (sp) or God?

It appears to be you who will be judging.

The absolutes you state are what are screwing with your argument. The world is shades of gray and you seem to be and I am sure that you are not......but anyway, you are coming off judgmental and deeming to speak for what God wants for someone else's life. Couple that with your sure knowledge of who and what religion people are and how they better get right with God makes me think that you can't call yourself Christian so you better high tail it out of Christianity.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

A Lot of "His" rules are up for interpretation....
For instances the whole birth control issue: The Catholic church advocates natural birth control. Many others have no such rules.

Some religions advocate that women be subserviant to their husbands, while others actually allow women in the Priesthood/Ministry.

The comparisons could go on and on...
Just because a person is a member of a particular religion doesn't mean they believe EVERYTHING that particular religion preaches. It is possible to be a fine, upstanding Catholic and not agree with everything that is preached by the Catholic Church.

The Bible is a book--it was not written by God or Jesus for that matter. It was written by man and has been translated by man for 100s of years. I believe that there are probably mistakes in there, I also believe that man (or men) may have put their own spin on things!
Basically what it boils down to is this: A relationship with God should be a personal matter. If a person is at peace with God and with themself, then it's no one else's business!

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

From all your posts it is clear you do not like me. That's cool. I am basing my posts on two things-the teachings of the Catholic Churh on pro-life and Senator Kennedys status as a Catholic while being very pro-choice. (100% favorable by NARAL). I will state it again-you can't be a good Catholic and be voting pro-choice. Check out Father Pavones website.
I googled and found this. "Another issue is whether all pro-abortion Catholic politicians - Republicans or Democrats - should be denied communion. Many will be quick to use the excuse that one can't see inside the hearts of these politicians - but then have absolutely no hesitancy in judging us as being motivated merely by "politics."

However, these issues have been resolved by recent statements by the prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Josef Ratzinger. He has clearly stated that other issues such as the death penalty or application of just war doctrine, as serious as they are, do not rise to the same level of importance (termed a "proportionate reason") as abortion, and that pro-abortion Catholic politicians must be denied communion as they are objectively in the state of mortal sin. "
I think that answers all the questions about the Catholic teaching about being pro-choice. If you still don't understand this I can't help you any further. You may have to talk to a priest about this.

See my post concerning which is the gravest evil.

As an agnostic reading this thread, I'm finding it interesting. From my point of view, all it seems to me that religion does is cause arguments, hatred, fights, etc. And not just Christianity - I'm talking from the beginning of man's cognizant thoughts, man has fought over and because of religion. Mine is better, my god is better, my god says this, my god says that, my god's way is the right way, no mine is, etc.
Even to this day, people are fighting over which way is the right way, whose religion is better, whose tenements are better, who god loves more. I rarely find an arguement that isn't somehow rooted in religion. sheesh.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

But you are wrong. I don't know you so how can I dislike you. I do find problems with your posts, statements judging who can and can't be Catholic, but I don't have bad feelings with you at all. That is what mature debate is. I like debate. I like to know different ideas. I am always surprised at some of th ideas presented here at My Coupons by some of the posters.

Jaded,
The truth about Chrisitanity is that it is supposed to bring you closer to your fellow man with the compassion that Christ gave all of thos he came in contact with. I am sorry that those that the Christians you have come across are making you go further away. I am passionate about what I believe is the Christian behavior the Lord wants me to perform. I try to live by it, however, I am not perfect. But that's okay. He already knows that.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I don't think Kathy is judging, she's not stating her opinion, she is just explaining the stance of the Catholic church.

Personally, I've come a long way as a Christian and how I feel about abortion. While I still believe that it is wrong, I think the church has gone about it totally the wrong way. I feel that way about gay marriage as well. We cannot expect non believers to feel the way we do. If we really want to "change the world" and mirror Jesus, then it needs to start within our churches and our homes. We can't expect the secular world to behave in a "moral" manner when our divorce rate is the same as the worlds's among the many other problems. Unfortunately ppl are ppl, and we are sinners, so I'm not sure that will ever happen.

I happen to believe that our nation was formed a Christian nation. I've heard all the debates, so I'm not interested in sparring, but I've pretty much come to the conclusion that no matter what we started as, that is certainly not where we are now. So again.......we need to be living what we believe in our homes and churches and quit worrying about all the nonsense. We can vote for change, and have an effect on those around us, and I think that is our only hope.

And as far as the "separation of church and state" debate. the intention was to keep government out of the church. The idea was to protect the church. I do agree however that government officials have a duty to vote with their constituency, but what they believe will inevitably affect their decisions.

Melissa

I'm not judging who can and can't be Catholic. I am saying that Mr. Kennedy is not in line with the Catholic Church. I guess that's not my definition of being judgmental. If I said he's a slimey piece of crap and is going to Hell THAT'S judgmental. Nice answer to Jaded by the way. We are supposed to LOVE all first and foremost.

A politician's religious beliefs should never carry over into his/her legislative duties.

Unless someone's religion advocates child or animal abuse or pedophilia or their religion advocates terrorism then who cares. The reason there are so many religions is that there are so many people. We all have a different relationship with God.
I am so burning mad right now that some of these people claim to be "Christians" and here they are judging the hell out of people.
Look in the mirror. When you are perfect then come back how a "good Catholic" or "religious person" or "Christian" should act.
I cannot believe the hypocrisy.

I am Catholic I am prochoice and I DARE you to question my faith or my beliefs or my love for God & Jesus but most of all do not question my spirituality or my relaitonship to other humans beings in the world whether I know them or not.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Pro-choice = pro-abortion = the killing of an innocent child in the womb = a violation of Thou Shall Not Kill. A + B + C = D. Simple.
I do DARE to question the standing of a professed Catholic who is pro-choice. It's like saying I'm not a racist but I don't like black people. NOT questioning your love of God, Jesus, your fellow man, etc... but I stand firm on the statement that you can't be pro-choice and be a good Catholic. Read Pope Ratzinger and the late JP II's statements on it. Don't insult the messenger. Do you dare to disagree with both Popes?????

The Pope(s) can speak for themselves and they can speak for the Catholic Church, but that doesn't mean they're speaking for God.

That's only your version of the equation and no more likely to be correct than anyone else's.

We keep hearing a lot of "judging" being thrown around. What is wrong with judging someone? According to websters.com these are some of the meanings of judge:
8.to form a judgment or opinion of; decide upon critically: You can't judge a book by its cover. 9.to decide or settle authoritatively; adjudge: The censor judged the book obscene and forbade its sale. 10.to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess: He judged her to be correct.
You can judge in a good or bad way. When you say someone is going to Hell because of such and such, that, to me is a bad judgement, and your opinion. It just seems like this whole judging word is being thrown around way too much.

I agree with Jaded, too many arguments have stemmed from religion.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

[quote=truble2301;2996782]The Pope(s) can speak for themselves and they can speak for the Catholic Church, but that doesn't mean they're speaking for God.

If a person claims to be Catholic but doesn't want to follow the Pope then why are they Catholic???? That's the whole point!!!!!

And what part of that equation is inaccurate???????

I disagree with you on this matter. You're expressing your opinion.

The short answer to your hypothetical question is if my party's platform supported choice and I was elected by campaigning as a party member supporting the platform, IMO it is my duty to support the platform whether it agrees with my religious beliefs or not. If, at some point, I felt I couldn't support the platform I would consult with my constitutents (not my church) and do my best to represent their wishes or resign my elected office.

Taking choice off the table because it is such a hot button issue and posing another hypothetical situation, suppose you are a member of a church which strongly believes a woman's place is in the home. This belief is not well known among your constituents. Legislation is in front of you demanding that women be treated as equals in the workplace which is in direct opposition to the teachings of your church. Over half of your constituents are women and this would make an impact on their lives, do you vote for the legislation or support your church by voting against your constituents' interests?

I know the above is a terrible analogy but it's not out of the realm of possibility that something similar could happen and IMO is the core of the question.

Listen up folks. When I quote Catholic doctrine you don't have to agree with me. However, I have made statements and I have backed them up with documentation. That is not being judgmental. If you want to disagree iwth the the Pope that's your business. I stand by what I have posted.

In following this theory then how would you answer this if people wanted segregation to be brought back? According to your statements you would have to vote for that. Do you still agree?????

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996852]How does that statement remotely respond to mine?

IMO -- all of it.

[quote=truble2301;2996878]Not a clear enough response. The fetus is a human, not a dog. If it's terminated, it's heart stops beating. If you purposely stop a humans heart from beating permanently what part of that isn't killing and against that Commandment?

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996880]
You operate from a premise I don't agree with. Is that clear enough for you?

Why don't you answer my hypothetical first.

[quote=truble2301;2996881]Not really. If you are going to say that I am inaccurate I would prefer you back it up with facts.

Well you stated yours was a terrible analogy and since mine is based on something we have dealt with in history and you have the political background how about you educate me and answer my question??

Okay, if my constitutents wanted segregation brought back, I would resign my elected office and request that the community water supply be checked for hallucinations. Your turn.

Quote:
Pro-choice = pro-abortion = the killing of an innocent child in the womb = a violation of Thou Shall Not Kill.
That's only your version of the equation and no more likely to be correct than anyone else's.


For you Kathy, none of it. For someone who does not believe as you do, all of it. That is the beauty of religious freedom. It gives us all the right to choose. I, personally do not equate pro-choice to be pro-abortion. Pro-choice to me is being for choosing for one's self. Therefore, you can choose to continue a pregnancy or to abort a pregnancy (relating this to abortion). It does not automatically mean that a person will choose abortion just because they are pro-choice. That is how I interpret this. You, Kathy, interpret it to mean if given the option of choosing, a woman will choose to abort. Now, this logic can be dispelled, but, I will not argue that this is how YOU see it. It is not how I see it, but, neither of us is right or wrong in how we see it.

I understand you are quoting things from the Catholic religion, but, I personally see some of your posts as being "THIS is how it IS", which is the problem I have with many religions. To me religion itself is judgement at it finest.

Many times I'll read a post and there will be people saying "oh, what kind of sicko is he/she/it" or whatever the topic is. Others will say, "well, the Bible says such and such, and who are you to pass judgement???" I find both statements can be judgemental. As I said before, I think the "judgement" card is thrown around too much. Let's just discuss things, and if people want to "pass judgement" in your (general you) book, so be it......

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Let me get a cup of STRONG coffee....and I'll be back to answer this one

Ok, no cut and dry, in my book. As I feel that is how it is with Politics to a degree. I can see both sides of the Senator Kennedy debate. I would vote the way the people wanted me to vote, IF that were in the best interest of them. I was elected by the people to voice their concerns. Now.....having said that.....back to Senator Kennedy. This is just my opinion here: Senator Kennedy is a well know Catholic. One of the benchmarks of the Catholic religion is their stand on abortion. His voting record and religion are in direct conflict on this issue. IMO, THAT is what is being debated, determining wether or not he is a "good" (better choice of word needed here) Catholic. Is he a good example of someone of the Catholic faith? Maybe that is a better way to put it. I can definitely see Kathytheshopper's thinking on this matter, tho. I have several Catholic friends....one couple...OMG, the wife lies, steals, on and on, and the DH cheats on his wife, and they don't go to Church anymore. Are they "good" Catholics? They think so, so in their eyes, YES. And, their eyes are all that matter. I have another friend who is Catholic, and we were talking....I brought up confession. She said "oh, we don't believe in that". My jaw hit the floor.....HUH???? What type of Catholic are you, not believing in Confession??? And, I am still looking for the answer on that one....might have to ask them next time I see them.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

[quote=allinaugust;2996897]Quote:
Pro-choice =


. You, Kathy, interpret it to mean if given the option of choosing, a woman will choose to abort.
I don't believe this at all. Not in the least. Don't know why you feel that way. There are many, many pro choice people who think the option should be out there but would never choose abortion themselves. However, that can certainly be argued. ie "I'm personally against racism but if some else wants to be a racist that's fine with me". "I personally don't believe you should hit your wife and I would never do it but I can't tell someone else how to treat their wife".

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996907]
This is your quote: "Pro-choice = pro-abortion = the killing of an innocent child in the womb = a violation of Thou Shall Not Kill. A + B + C = D. Simple."

You say that pro-choice equals pro-abortion right there. You contradict yourself when you say you are not a racist, yet if someone else wants to be, that is fine with you. The same can be said about abortion. You would not choose one for yourself, but, shouldn't another woman be allowed to choose to have one or not to have one, for herself?? I, personally, hope she would choose NOT to have one,but, I like for her, and myself, to have the choice.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I hope your coffee was delicious!!! Have a nice pastry to go with it!!! Ok, Ted Kennedy is not a good example of someone of the Catholic faith. Is everyone happy now??? I hope so!!!! Your friends are not good examples of the Catholic faith either. Concerning Confession your friends are wrong. Confession is one of 7 Sacraments in the Catholic Church. It will always be a tenat of the Catholic Church. There are a ton of cafeteria Catholics out there-they align themselves with the chuch but pick and choose what parts they want to follow. Are they good examples of the Catholic Church? Nope. I have to disagree with "their eyes are all that matter" because if they proclaim themselves Catholic and behave in ways that are against the church that affects the church by giving people a bad idea of what a Catholic believes. And believe me, for many years I was a cafeteria Catholic and I can look back on my life and see how my actions may have given people a negative view of the Catholic Church.

[quote=allinaugust;2996911]Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess I should change it to Pro-choice = the opportunity to abort if you want to - which is the killing of, etc.... And no, I dobviously don't think a person should have the choice to abort their child. Hence, "I am not a racist but I think you should have the right to be a racist if you want to" would be an accurate analogy.

It was a bit strong, but, I need that right now.... I really should be cleaning. What I meant by "their eyes" is that "in their eyes, their eyes are all that matter". If THEY think they are being a good Catholic, they are. Just like you or I....if we feel we are being good people (take religion out for now), then we are. Others might feel differently, and that is their opinion. Others may say they are judging us, whatever. In your religion you believe that God's eyes are what matter, right?? I respect that. It's very very very difficult to discuss religion, I believe, unless both sides agree that their view is correct, in their eyes. That doesn't mean you agree with all religions, you just agree that how a person feels about their personal relationship with their God or Goddess or whomever they choose to believe in, is right, for THEM, and vice versa. I am not argueing the Catholic doctrine and if someone doesn't follow that that they are not abiding by it. That is up to them.

Ok, I'm really exhausted from all this......need to go expel some energy cleaning house......

BTW, I'm going to ask about that "non confession" thing next chance I get, thanks.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I never said you were inaccurate. What is this with putting words in my mouth? An opinion can't be inaccurate or accurate. Your entire statement is based on YOUR opinion, not facts. Why do I need facts to prove my opinion differs from yours? That makes no sense.

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996917]
Actually, that is kind of a good one....

While I don't approve of racisim, I certainly can't control another's thoughts and feelings. I can only educate them to the impact of their behavior based on those thoughts and feeling. They in turn will choose to act based on their own belief system. This can be likened to placing restrictions on what women can or can't do with their own bodies. Is it right for a political entity to force an individual to deal with their own bodies under govt. restricted guidelines regardless of their own belief system for the apeasement of another sect of a nation's population belief system (aka religion or other)? If that is the case, one can argue that forced female circumcision in Africa or the genicide of female babies in China is understandable and rightly enforceable.

Also, their definition of racisim could be very different than mine. Which could be compared to the argument to "when life starts." So argue that it is conception, others argue that it is when the fetus can survive indepented of the mother (birth). So, if one person considers racisim defined one way, and another person is taught to believe another definition, by what measurements and methodolgy do we detemin who is correct? What if it is intangible? What if it is based on belief system vs. science -- e.g., if someone is indoctirned to believe that racisim as a word isn't a negitive thing --they define it as it is simply suppoting one's race is a positive thing with no negitive implication to any other race.

Basically, it's complicated. And if I wasn't so hungry and needed to make a sandwhich, I might ponder a little more and give some more examples.....but, I'm over this. I'm going to stick with until all the leaders of this country have a vagina, they need to stay out of mine.

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996917]I didn't mean that the racist statement itself was contradictory, I meant that that way of thinking contradicted the pro-choice statement. Just wanted to clarify that. I understand you saying that you are not racist, but, if someone else chooses to be, that is their choice.

Ok, back to the vacuum.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

[quote=kathytheshopper;2996852]
So if I'm proud to be an American I have to agree with George Bush? Or what? If I don't agree with the Pope leave the Church? If I don't agree with Congress and The President then leave America?

Catholic People did not Elect or Appoint the Pope. It was done by a body that has been doing it for hundreds of years. We have no choice in the matter.

Just as I can be an American and not agree with the govt I can be a good Catholic and not agree with the Pope.


It's a good thing we have the moral police here.

We are talking about a man with a horrendous brain tumor who has spent all his adult life in the public and has spent time, energy, and his own money fighting for civil rights for everyone.

He's not perfect I'm not perfect and I am betting that neither are any of the people posting or reading here.

Maybe this is kind of like the woman who was raped in the alley at midnight while wearing a miniskirt.
If we look at her and say "I would never put myself in that position" then we can "blame" her in a manner of speaking and take comfort in the fact it won't happen "to me".
So if I see someone with a horrendous brain tumor and tell myself God smyted him for his antiCatholic beliefs then I don't have to worry about it happening to me because Heaven Forbid I would NEVER do what he did.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

You're right we judge each other all the time. However in this case I am hearing what sounds to me like "Ted Kennedy is a bad man because he is prochoice and I am a good person because I am not"

This man has fought his whole life for other people.

And the idea that God has smyted people for their beliefs is so ignorant to me. If God is smyting people why didn't the man in my local newspaper this morning who rapes little girls get a brain tumor? Because God thinks being prochoice is worse than raping little girls?

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I don't believe things like brain tumors are inflicted on people, nor do I believe hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are "created" for a reason. I think what was trying to be expressed is that Senator Kennedy was not adhering to the Catholic belief in no abortion, by voting pro-choice. That is what I got from it, anyway.

To me, the Pope is the representative of the Catholic Church, and upholds the doctrine of the Catholic Church. No, you don't have to agree with everything he says, but, I think in any religion, you would pick (stick with) that religion, based on their values. What I don't understand is how the Pope could add an additional sin to the list. What is that all about???

I caution strongly anyone that follows someone just "because that's how it is", sounds too cult like to me.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

No, I think that what kathy was saying was that Senator Kennedy was not adhering to the Catholic belief therefore he was NOT Catholic. Reread her postings:

That's what I always think of when I think of Ted Kennedy. His negligence in that accident. That and he is one of the most liberal senators and a Catholic. You can't be a good Catholic and be liberal. For a Kennedy man he's lived a pretty long life. Hopefully he gets right with God before he passes

If you truly are Catholic and follow the guidelines of the Catholic Church you cannot vote pro-choice and Kennedy certainly has. If he doesn't want to be a good Catholic then he should be a Protestant.

Just a couple of quotes from her. So, if she meant to say he wasn't adhering to what she thinks Catholics believe, then she could have said that and left it alone instead of saying more than once that one could NOT be a Catholic and vote Pro Choice. There is a difference.

I appreciate what you are saying though.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

[quote=allinaugust;2996954]I don't believe things like brain tumors are inflicted on people, nor do I believe hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are "created" for a reason. I think what was trying to be expressed is that Senator Kennedy was not adhering to the Catholic belief in no abortion, by voting pro-choice. That is what I got from it, anyway.

THAT'S IT!!!! I'm not sure where the smyting thing came from. Annadrose this is the point that is being made, not that he's a "bad" man, etc...

LOL, does anyone remember what the question was?

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Let me try this one more time..........
I did NOT say the Senator is not a Catholic. There's a bumper sticker out there that says "You can't be Catholic and ProChoice". Since so many people on this board like to take things out of context and pick things to pieces. I will say "You can't be a good Catholic in line with the belifes of the Catholic Church and be pro-choice". Wouldn't that be a much better bumper sticker?? lol
No one wishes a brain tumor on the Senator. I wish no one any ill will. I hope EVERYONE goes to Heaven.
I've spent a long, long time studying the Catholic Doctrine. It's so black and white to me that I apologize if I come across too harsh.

Yes!! About an elected official and their persoanl beliefs and whether or not they should influence their votes! I'm still waiting for that one poster to answer my question about whether or not an elected official should follow what the people want if they want segregation brought back. I'm sincere. I really would like an answer. My answer would be that's morally wrong and you would not vote for segregation even if the people you represent want it .

I responded in post #36.

Oops, missed that one. Good answer!!!! To answer yours-I'm not sure!!! I've been mulling that one over. Not sure you could legislate women staying home though.

I have not yet read the entire thread yet (but I will go back an do so), but I will say that when you are an elected official you take an oath to uphold the law. Say you are a judge--which is an elected official--who is anti-death penalty. If you preside over a case where there is a sentence of death, you cannot just ignore it because of your own personal core beliefs. If you cannot abide by the oath you take in public office, then you should not be in public office, period. As an elected official you cannot pick and choose what laws you will uphold. You are there to uphold the law.
When it comes to enacting or instituting law, as an elected official you must listen to those who put you in office. If you do not, then you will not be placed back into office.
An elected official is NOT a singular person representing only himself. We cannot take away his personal beliefs, but it is his/her duty to represent others who placed him in office. Not always easy to adhere to on a personal basis, but easily defined and spelled out.

Don't run for office unless you plan to honor that office and those who placed you there.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Well Kathy, there you go. You have studied the Catholic beliefs so you have the ability to tell whether someone is a good Catholic. Presumptuous but okay. I have studied comparative religions for years after it was a study in college. BUT I would not be so inclined to tell someone who is a Mormon whether they were a "good" Mormon if they didn't believe that they were going to be a God after death. Not my place....judgemental and rude. Two words that come to mind. But you get to be however you want.....you get to answer as to how you brought people to the Word. Did you turn people off by the way you acted or did you inspire people to aspire to what you have and are? No judgement, just some questions.

And to keep on topic. During the 60s, there were plenty of people who did not want the Civil Rights movement and subsequent intregation that followed. Some used biblical passages to back their views. However, the people who had the power did what was right for the country. I am sure that there were politicians in places that in their heart of hearts thought that the status quo in Alabama and Arkansas was fine, but when faced with the knowledge that it would be illegal for them to continue to vote as such, got on board. Strom Thurmond comes to mind. (Of course, a bigger hypocrit could never be found.....preaching separation but having a AA lover. )

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

EXACTLY!!!! Nice post!

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I think I'd have to disagree with this.

It seems like this position presumes - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that there would not be these issues if there were no religious beliefs.

What seems to motivate people, IMHO, is their beliefs. Sometimes it's an allegiance to country. Sometimes it's a loyalty to family. Sometimes it is based in religion. Regardless. we all have beliefs and ideas to which they are loyal and they are willing to go to the mat for them.

Undoubtedly, religion is a powerful motivator because most religions speak to the origins of man and man's responsibility to those origins. If I have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion that I believe that God created the earth, that he is still in control, and he has a set of expectations, I'll naturally want to adhere to those. If I think there are gods and goddesses in the sky that I need to appease to bring love or victory or harvest and rain, I'm going to do what I can to appease them. It's rather like obeying the laws of the land. If I love my country and know that one of the things I need to do to be in sync with my citizenship is not drive drunk, I'll do it. If one of the things I need to do is pay my taxes, I'll do it. House and educate (or let the school educate in my case!) my kids until they are of age? Certainly. It's all part of what we do here - part of our way of life. And there are some aspects of our way of life we'd be willing to fight for - or at the very least, argue about.

People feel the same way about their core belief systems about humanity and how we came to exist and if we owe anything to our origins. And when it comes to beliefs about origins, people who believe in a creator - whatever creator you want to talk about - they believe that same creator created *everyone* whether or not an individual even *knows* that they were created by _____.

So yes, people are going to be highly motivated by their beliefs regarding what they believe their 'moral authority' - the one who created the world and therefore whose precepts should dictate morality - wants from them.

But there have been many, many wars and conflicts that have been waged over territory or control of seaways or money or simply power. Yes, some wars are based on a shared religious worldview, but that's just one of *many* reasons. And sometimes people use religion as part of their argument when in reality, what they really want is something selfish and they think religion makes their case for them, so they pull it out of the hat.

If we're going to bash religion and wish to see it gone because of the 'bad' that has happened in its name, we also have to do away with the hospitals, the orphanages, the homeless shelters, the food pantries, the job training through the Salvation Army, the nursing homes... the many, many, many services that people have launched out of the obligations they feel to their creator.

Personally, I'd say my faith drives me more than my religion. My religion is indicative of many things about me. You *choose* your religion based on whether you believe it's precepts are in line with what you believe about the creator. So yeah... religion says a lot about a person.

With Kennedy and the Catholic issues, let's face it. He probably hasn't ever thought a lot about his faith. He is from a long line of Catholics. It's his culture as much or more than it is his *faith*, kind of like with the Jews in the Old Testament, their faith dictated their nationality regardless of their personal views. That's rather where Kennedy is - the Catholic part of him is his heritage, it's comfortable... and it doesn't always fit his personal views. If he were not part of that *culture* and looking objectively for a religion, it's not the one he'd choose because he is diametrically opposed to much of what it believes God wants from man.

But no doubt, his family would not embrace him rejecting their church culture, and many of his voting public wouldn't, either. So he sticks with it. Politically, he doesn't have much choice.

But I don't have a lot of respect for his *lack* of alignment with the religious sect he has chosen to align himself with. And no, I'm not Catholic.

And yet... it's all so circular.

I vote on a candidate because I believe they have asserted that the laws/issues they support are in line with mine.

If they win and vote what they claimed in their candidacy, then they will be voting their constituency.

Everyone is making that part of this sound so cut and dry, but you really can't just give a blanket "vote your constituency" statement and make it fly all the time.

There are things I think are best that perhaps the *candidate* I believe is best doesn't support. It's pretty much impossible to find a single candidate with whom I agree completely, and yet, often 'my' candidates win after having run on a platform that I agree with by about 85%.

So when those 15% issues come up and they vote the way they campaigned, they aren't necessarily voting what their constituency truly wanted.

And I have some dear friends with whom I disagree vehemently on politics. And yet when the election is over, we share the same senators, governors, and presidents. Which constituency do they vote "for'? Me? Or my friends?

In the end, I assume my elected officials will use their best judgment. That's what I expect of them. And I vote for the one that seems, in my opinion, to have the best judgment about right vs. wrong, best vs. worst, helpful vs, harmful. Core beliefs about right and wrong will surely play a part in someone's judgment. How could it not?

I think this is true.

I find it so interesting that people prefer to be called pro-choice rather than pro-abortion. I believe that if you are pro-choice, you are choosing between life and death.

If you are pro-life, your only choice is life.

Maybe their should be more than just the two choices. I see Pro-Choice as supporting a person's right to choose for themselves. I am Pro-choice and would choose life. I will not force that decision on someone else, tho, just like I would not force my religious beliefs on anyone else, or any other beliefs I held. The abortion debate is not black and white.

this, of course, is just MY opinion.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I disagree: the abortion debate IS black and white for pro-lifers. Since we very simply believe that abortion kills babies, there is no "gray" area whatsoever.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU KellyJef!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Abortion is a behavior, not a belief.

In our culture, we tend to base our laws on whether a behavior will cause a bad or grave situation. Our punishments are often based on the severity of the results... or at least, we want them to.

Though this isn't 100% true, for the most part we don't regulate personal behavior that isn't going to effect others. Not always, but mostly. Smoke in your house where strangers don't have to breathe it. Drink 'til you're drunk - just don't drive. I know there are examples where private behavior is legislated against, but that's not really where I'm going with this...

Abortion is an action, not just a belief or concept. We tend to punish activities that have a dire consequence to other parties - especially innocent people.

If I believe a child in utero is a child, just like my nine year old who is sitting here on the couch with me, there is no way I can, in good conscience, approve the idea that someone else have the *choice* to do away with that child, just as I wouldn't approve the idea of getting rid of a nine year old for any reason... not because of his eye color, who his father is, that having him around is inconvenient, not because I can't afford to feed him (none of which are true in my case... just using this as an example).

I could never say, "I'll never kill my own nine year old, but I don't want to take away the rights of other people to kill theirs," because it's simply morally wrong.

If you're pro-life, the consequences of the 'choice' of abortion - the cessation of life that was not guilty of anything except existing in the wrong womb - has a consequence to an innocent party that is grave enough that you believe the *choice* should not be afforded anyone.

Just like you wouldn't give someone the *choice* to kill their nine year old.

To me, that's the rub. I understand what people are saying when they say, "I'd never have an abortion MYSELF but I want the choice to be left open for others who believe differently." I really do. There are some things I feel the same way about. I'm not a smoker, but I wouldn't presume to take that right away from others.

Abortion to me is different, because I do believe that the growing unborn infant has a right not to have death inflicted upon it. I think that right supersedes the right of the mother not to have to give birth. It's simply a choice I don't think anyone should have the right to make.

I'm 'pro' a lot of choices. Just not that one.

That was extremely well written!!!!! Kudos!

Thanks, kathy.

I also wanted to add that a lot of the time, the argument seems to be that a woman has a right to decide what happens to her own body. Even that isn't entirely true. A lot of things happen to our bodies that are simply out of our control, and rights aren't even an issue. We get cancer. We go bald. We get cellulite. We lose limbs. We get birthmarks. We get appendicitis. We get mono. We get calcium deficiency and cholesterol trouble. Our eyes go bad, our ears go bad, and some people need Viagra.

Pregnancy is short term, not usually life-threatening, and a completely terminal condition, unlike rheumatoid arthritis or lupus or something that is debilitating that is a life-long battle.

We really have very little choice about what happens to our bodies. There is a lot we simply can't control. And unlike those other conditions, the result of pregnancy isn't a bad thing - it's actually a blessing, whether someone parents their child or gives it for adoption if they are unable to parent.

When I hear people say it's all about choosing what to do with one's body... that one just doesn't fly with me. I have to make choices about what I do with my body every day that aren't always choices that I *want* to make, but they're necessary. I'd like my body to stay in bed longer. I'd like my body to be on a beach. I'd like my eyes to not need corrective lenses. I'd like the choice to not have a lot of things *happen* in and to my body that I'm not particularly fond of. But life doesn't work that way, and we deal with it. That's why, I guess, the drama of the 'IT'S MY BODY!" argument doesn't fly that far with me...

It's my opinion, too, and I think you phrased it very well.

I really don't understand the anti-choice people who say things like "no abortion except in cases of rape or incest." That's completely hypocritical IMO.

I agree that it's illogical, unless you view having to carry the baby to term as punishment, and a rape or incest victim is innocent and therefore doesn't deserve punishment.

If your position is that it's a child, regardless of how it came into existence your position should be that it has the right to live.

quite frankly, I get tired of pro-life/anti-choice people wanting to impose themselves on others lives without being willing to help out financially. Either put up or shut up as far as I'm concerned.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I think most women (except rape, incest) used the freedom of choice, when they made the decision to have sex. The pregnancy that might result is a consequence of that choice.
I also view that your right ends where someone's else begin. To me "life" begins at conception. Without conception there would be no life.

So smoking is a choice to get tongue or lung cancer, driving a car is a choice to die in a car crash, and swimming in the ocean is a choice to be killed by a shark as well? Going to a public school is a choice to be killed by a VT-type madman, living in a wooden house is a choice to die in a fire and sky-diving is a choice to crash and die? Living in NYC is a choice to be assaulted, walking alone after dark is a choice to be raped, and going to an ATM is a choice to be robbed at gunpoint?

There's a world of difference between a choice and a risk.

I'm guessing that Jaded meant pro-life or anti-choice when she wrote "I get tired of pro-choice people wanting to impose themselves on others lives without being willing to help out financially."

Without sperm there would be no life, either. Should vasectomies be against the law?

When you make a free decision of choice then you have to deal with the consequence of that decision.

Having sex does have consequences. We are not animals..everyone with a brain should understand if you have sex a result "might" be a pregnancy. You have a choice to use birth control or not. You have a choice to have sex or not.
I do not see sex as a risk but as a free choice. (Except where rape or incest is involved).

And no, I do not feel that I have to "pay" for anyone's "bad choice" they might make in the lives.
whether it is a choice of having sex, the car they drive, buying a house. They made that choice freely!!!

Sooner or later people have to learn to accept responsibility for their actions.

Answer to your question:
Without sperm there would be no life, either. Should vasectomies be against the law?
That again is a choice that someone can freely chose, just like getting your tubes tied, taking birth contol, using condoms, etc.
You are only preventing something..not taking another life.

So now we're equating having a baby to being killed in a mass shooting in a classroom?

I seem to recall that a poster was called, for all intents and purposes, a whack-job for equating Obama's crowd size with Hitlers. I'd say this set of analogies ranks right up there in the absurdity competition.

Pro-lifers would rather just tell the mother to have the kid she may not want, pay for it w/ money she may not have, and then complain about it when she ends up on welfare. And if she hates the kid and beats him/her, then at least it's still living, albeit in abject HELL.

whatever.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

It's not a pro life movement. It is only pro birth. Quite a few of the most vocal anti abortionists also want to outlaw contraception.

And, abortion is not a behavior. It is a medical procedure.

Actually, it is pro-life.

An egg and a sperm are not alive. Frankly, I don't care what happens to an egg or a sperm.

Once they become something that *is* alive, yeah - I'm 'pro' that life.

I should have said abortion is an action, rather than a behavior or a belief. We rarely punish beliefs (though the thought police does seem to be alive and well in some circles.).

We punish actions, and usually make laws against actions that bring dire consequences to people or property.

I'm really surprised at the lack of responsibility we expect people to assume for the realities they themselves create. I really am.

Not at all. I comparing the notion of taking a risk by doing something to the choice to do something. But I bet you knew that.


Depends on your definition of "alive," doesn't it? Certainly they're not dead things.

To all of you anti-choice peple, which is what I consider you if you don't give someone the right to choose what is right for them, what do you do for these women who face these choices??? Do you help with child care?? Food?? Diapers??? Hell, a hug or shoulder to lean on?? Maybe some babysitting?? Or have you taken in one of these unplanned/unwanted children?? I didn't think so.

I do as much as I can to help people in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy, giving my time, energy and resources, knowing my own limits.

I am not for someone aborting a pregnancy, but, who am I to judge that they can or can not handle that pregnancy??? Who are YOU to judge that for someone?? And, really, that is what it comes down to. You are judging them and their situation and forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

This debate will never end, I know that.

I saw a bumper sticker that I think says it all, at least for me:

"Against abortion??? Don't have one!!!"

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

But what is "can't handle that pregnancy"? Seriously not being snarky. I think it comes down to 'don't want to handle the pregnancy' or 'not convenient to handle the pregnancy'.

To follow truble's line of thinking, if someone drives drunk, has an accident and kills someone, and then goes to jail, we should say, "Don't put them in jail unless you're willing to be the one to get a job to take up the slack their family will feel with them behind bars!"

So let me get this straight. If you participate in a behavior that has a possible outcome, and then when that outcome occurs you don't like the work that's going to go into it, anyone who wants you to have to follow through with it better be prepared to fund it.

Frankly, I would assume that while money plays a part in some abortion decisions, I think your position assumes that if some kind stranger walked up to a girl carrying a baby inside her womb and said, "Hey, I'll buy your diapers if you go ahead and have that baby" that immediately the girl would change her mind. I don't think that's necessarily true.

If someone colors their hair the wrong color and wants to do away with it, who cares? But if someone makes a baby, I care.

So yeah, I guess I'll embrace your anti-choice sentiment if that makes you feel better, because that is a choice I don't think anyone should be allowed to make.

And actually, no, truble, I didn't know where you were going with all those horrific things and comparing them to having a child. You made the analogies, not me.

Edited to add that there are many things one would presume they 'can't handle' that they have to handle every day and come out stronger for the experience. We live in a society that wants to allow any behavior and omit any possible result that anyone might consider negative. I don't know that that makes us a healthier people.

The whole point comes down to accepting responsibilty for your decisions (actions).
It may be tough..so what you "made your bed lay in it".

I am not judging them just telling them it was their decision so own up to the responsibilty.

Yes, I do help others ...by donating food, diapers, etc to the food bank.

I am sorry people go thur rough times but I have a lot less sympathy for someone that bring their problems on themselves.

If you know you do not want any children then be a mature, adult and take responsibilty and use some type of birth control. It costs alot less than having a child or an abortion.

That might follow your line of thinking, but not mine.

I didn't compare them to having a child. That's in your mind. I clearly noted, as was my point, that there's a difference between a choice, which is what the other poster claimed an unwanted pregnancy was, and a risk, which is something altogether different. Taking a risk is not the same thing as making a choice.

I think that's untrue.

And if you do use birth control and it fails? Then what?

(truble2301)"that there's a difference between a choice, which is what the other poster claimed an unwanted pregnancy was, and a risk, which is something altogether different. Taking a risk is not the same thing as making a choice."

Having sex is a CHOICE that has consequences that everyone understands..a pregnacy.
I did not claim an unwanted pregnancy is a choice..but that it is a result of your choice of having sex.

You deal with it. If you absolute do not want a child have surgery to prevent it or do not have sex.

No birth control is 100% effective. If you take the chance you take the responsibility and have the child.

Vasectomies don't kill a child. Also, most prolifers DO contribute financially to help single moms with their expenses.

To your first paragraph-aren't you being judgmental in assuming we don't help. Most of us prolifers do help in many ways.

Your bumper sticker? It's a child in their that prolifers want to be able to be born.

We're not judging someone in a crisis state. The child has no choice in the matter. What is the child growing in the womb is a female? Where's HER choice?

I'm not assuming anything about anyone...I'm speaking from personal experience:

At 22 y/o I became involved in a very destructive relationship. I was young, stupid and emotionally immature. He was 24 y/o, addict and alcoholic, raised in an abusive household,didn't have a job or a car. My first "mistake" was getting involved w/ the guy--but I 'loved' him and I was sure that if I loved him enough I could "fix" all that was wrong with him. One episode of unprotected sex--and yep you guessed it: I was pregnant.
I thought long and hard, prayed without ceasing, cried, consulted friends and family. I chose to have an abortion. There were a lot of reasons--none of which I feel is any of business but mine. But, I can guarantee anyone reading this--"convenience" was not a reason. It wasn't that I was incapable of providing physical care of a baby, I could have....
I made the decision based on what I felt was best for all involved--INCLUDING the fetus growing inside of me. I made my peace with MY GOD and myself long ago and far away.

It seems very easy for some of you to take an anti-choice stance. And, if any of you have been in a position to have to make that choice and chose to either keep the baby or place it up for adoption--that was YOUR choice, aren't you glad you had a choice to make?? Aren't you glad you had the freedom to choose as opposed to the government telling you what you had to do?
I respect the opinion that life begins at conception. Please accept that not everyone feels that way. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean you are correct.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Amen, sister!


...and thanks for having the courage to share.

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Some of us have "been there, done that" or have very close friends that have been in that situation. It still doesn't take away the fact that it was a baby growing inside. It's not the childs fault. I don't know if you have living children or not but you are the mother of a deceased child. It you ever have problems contact Rachels Vineyard. They have some great retreats or read Forbidden Grief by Dr. Theresa Burke. No one judges women who have had abortions. We just feel bad for them. There are long term effects from abortion, even if they are repressed. Lots of good articles online. Sorry for the loss of your baby. Have you ever thought maybe things would have worked out ok if you DIDN"T have that choice?? My best friends daughter has THREE babies out of wedlock with her ex looser boyfriend. Yes, three!! And birth control did not work for the last two. It's been harder than heck for that family and her mom is working two jobs to help with the kids while their mom gets her degree so she can provide a good life for her threes kids. Those kids are precious and such a joy. Yes, it's very hard but it's worth it. The 4 yr old is my Goddaughter! Bless you!

ITA and thanks for expressing it so well.

Please don't take this wrong--

I'm not repressing anything. I don't want or need your sympathy. I have made my peace with MY GOD. Assuming that I have committed a sin, I believe God has forgiven me. Your sympathy and feeling bad for me is wasted energy.

I have NEVER considered that the situation I was in could have worked out. Finding out that I pregnant opened my eyes to just how bad a situation I was in. And I was not equipped emotionally or mentally to bring an innocent child into an abusive relationship where the father was (and is for all I know) an alcoholic and addict. And I didn't think that I could put the child up for adoption when that child stood a pretty high chance of having birth defects due to the alcohol use (by me and the sperm donor) and the use of narcotics and such by the sperm donor.

My mother, who is an ordained minister, and I have discussed my abortion on more than one occasion. And you know what? She's thankful that I made the decision I did. I know that I'm not going to change your mind or anyone's mind for that matter.

But please, please, please--do not feel sorry for me. Do not "pray" for me, and do not believe for one minute that I have repressed issues regarding the decision I made. I have issues--but according to my therapist those issues aren't even remotely connected to the abortion. (and FWIW I do have children--they were wanted, they were conceived in true love, I was emotionally and mentally capable of dealing with whatever happened.....) Oh and please don't give or offer your blessings. I have plenty!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Neither does an abortion.

I'd be interested in where you get the statistics to shwo that "most" pro-lifers contribute financially to help single moms.

Bull Absolute bull.

IMO, there's virtually no difference between prohibiting one woman from having an abortion and forcing another one to do so. Both are wrong.

You have no idea how much I hoped you would post this exact post, Marilyn! Exactly. Here is a huge high five up top

Kathy, please do not say that there is no judgement on those who have had an abortion. I read your posts and those of other prolifers. The judgement is here in your post to Marilyn. You don't see it but you believe that she needs help and is in need of spiritual guidance or support so you gave her a place to go that while I am sure is a nice place, it was not asked for and she was judged to need some help for facing what she has already expressed that she has already dealt with.

I know you don't think you are being judgemental. Choice is a freedom that we have. I wish that the "churches" would quit trying to legislate. You cannot legislate what the bible says unless we all have the same lockstep view.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

You need to read my posts more carefully. I said IF she ever needs any help dealing with this. Seems to me you read thing in MY posts that I did not state. Now who's being judgmental?
All the prolifers that I know in my community DO NOT judge post abortive women. We have enormous sympathy for the predicament they are/were in and the dire choice they had to made. Sure there are some out there that do just like there are nasty pro-choice people out there. Like the ones that spit on this sweet little old lady who was peacefully and prayerfully praying outside the local clinic. You don't want me to assume that YOU would do that just because that person and you are pro-choice? I bet not.
We have baby showers for the local pregnancy clinic, give contributions, fiind resources for people in crisis, etc..

If you aren't aborting a baby then what are you aborting? It's not just tissue. It has unique DNA. We all started out that way.

What does an abortion kill? Tissue? It has unique DNA for a human being. Just because someone doesn't want it, can't afford it, etc... does not make it less a child than someone who is pregnant and wants the baby. What about someone who wants the baby and miscarries at 8 weeks? They aren't mourning lost tissue folks. You can't have it both ways-"tissue" if you want to abort and a baby if you want to be pregnant. Makes no sense.

You do realize that is true of all species? In the first trimester no embryo is capable of surviving; and...I can show you pictures of other mammal and bird embryos that look exactly like a human embryo.

It's not a baby until it draws a breath or it can survive outside the mother's womb.

Again, I know that I'm not going to change your mind.

"Pro-Lifers" seem to assume that everyone should see things in the same light that they do. My choice was not forced upon me, I made it of my own free will. If I had been forced to carry the embryo to term, I can honestly say I would have gone insane, and most likely been suicidal.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

A plant has unigue DNA. A sperm and egg each have a complete set of DNA. There is a huge difference between a living breathing human being and an embryo.

Of all the people I know who have had abortions, I do not know even one who regrets her decision. Because of their abortions, they were able continue their educations and careers and raise children when the time was right with complete emotional and financial stability.