I did some research and I thought I'd start another thread. This thread is not meant to argue the mertis of the Catholic Church. It is to inform what the guidelines are for voting in line with the Catholic Church. Hopefully this will clear up some of the questions brought up in the religion/politics thread.
!. "A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals". (PCPL,4).
2. In voting, as in every other decision with moral consequences, we must always seek to make a right judgment that is in accordance with reason and God's law. (CCC, 1783-1802).
3. The Church teaches that there are five prominent actions/issues that are always morally wrong and our opposition to them must be NON-NEGOTIABLE. As far as abortion-"With regard to any law permitting abortion, the Church teaches that it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, OR TO VOTE FOR IT". (EV. 73)
Once again, this thread is not to argue the teachings of the Catholic Church. You are free to choose not to be a Catholic. However, to be a "good" Catholic (a Catholic in line with the beliefs of the church) you are supposed to follow the teaching of the church. Yes, there are many, many Catholics who don't follow the guidelines of the Church but that doesn't make the guidelines incorrect, it makes that Catholic a person not acting in accordance with Church Doctrine. I hope this helps clear up some of the question brought up in the other thread.
(CCC=Catechism of the Catholic Church, PCPL=Doctrinal Note on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life and EV=Evangelium Vitae.)

What I would love for you to look up and study is what the Good Book has to say about being judgemental and minding your own business. No one needs the Catholic police. That went out with the Crusades.

Seriously, if someone were to look at your postings and found that you consider yourself to be Christian, they would NEVER want to be a Christian if it meant being like you.

Geesh!
I have just about had enough of this crap. You have no right to ever tell someone what they believe or should believe nor to tell someone how to live their lives. I would be ashamed of myself if I were you. Totally.

I wish that those sanctimonious so called "Christians" and I have seen you posting the last couple of days with your anti-Christ like crap would have a huge healthy cup of shut the F- up.

And in case you didn't get what I am trying to say.........stop the judgement or keep it to your own sad sorry life.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I don't think I am alone in it.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Thank-you for posting what you found. Since someone earlier had asked you for the infomation.

Dang woman, if you didn't live on the other side of the country I'd buy you a glass of wine!!

I don't like to lose my temper. I really don't think it should be necessary on a message board.

If I was perfect, perhaps I would never have to post what I posted. But I know that I am not. I have given some people the benefit of the doubt. I have tried to be polite, sarcastic, begging and pleading of them to stop trying to tell people what they should believe and what they are not religiously. It just was not sinking in. So, in cases like that, I guess you have to just be blunt.

I am drinking a glass of wine with you anyway, Ana. I suppose that the anti drinking police will be stopping by soon. LOL

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Let me see -- are you drinking red or white? Chardonnay, Zin or Merlot? I don't know if I can continue to truck with you if you're drinking anything less than a Chambourcin . . .

LOL. I am drinking a lovely glass of 75 Wine Company Cabernet that my husband got from a client last Christmas. It is a very nice red wine. I usually like a Merlot but we didn't have any. It is early but somewhere in the world it is cocktail hour.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Honey, you're in the same time zone as me -- it's definitely cocktail hour!

You definitely need that glass of wine to chill out!!!!
I am NOT being judgmental. There was a debate yesterday about politics/faith/Catholics/voting, etc... I started this post to explain why I stated the things I stated. I was hoping this would NOT get into the same name calling, judgmental crap. I just wanted to educate anyone who was interested in what the doctrine of the Catholic chuch has to say.
So, can we please keep this thread on topic and do away with the name calling and judgments, etc... That would be so refreshing!

Wouldn't it though? But unfortunately, the judgement has already been stated by your post in this thread.

"Once again, this thread is not to argue the teachings of the Catholic Church. You are free to choose not to be a Catholic. However, to be a "good" Catholic (a Catholic in line with the beliefs of the church) you are supposed to follow the teaching of the church. Yes, there are many, many Catholics who don't follow the guidelines of the Church but that doesn't make the guidelines incorrect, it makes that Catholic a person not acting in accordance with Church Doctrine. I hope this helps clear up some of the question brought up in the other thread."

What you don't seem to understand is that when you tell someone that they are not a "GOOD" Catholic, that is a JUDGEMENT! And a judgement that is not your place to make. It makes you look small and petty and not Christlike.

If you truly wanted to just "inform" the public about what the Catholic "Voting Pamphlet" stated (as though one exists, because the Church allows people to use their own brain to decide what is right for themselves) You could have posted a link or left off the last paragraph putting your particular spin on the entire subject. You truly do not get it.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

USCCB - (Office of Media Relations) - U.S. Catholic bishops approve faithful citizenship statement

“In this statement, we bishops do not intend to tell Catholics for whom or against whom to vote,” the bishops explain. “Our purpose is to help Catholics form their consciences in accordance with God’s truth. We recognize that the responsibility to make choices in political life rests with each individual in light of a properly formed conscience, and that participation goes well beyond casting a vote in a particular election.”

The church’s role in helping Catholics to form their consciences is a central theme of the document. “With this foundation,” the bishops explain, “Catholics are better able to evaluate policy positions, party platforms, and candidates’ promises and action in light of the Gospel and the moral and social teaching of the Church in order to help build a better world.”"

AND the IMPORTANT thing is YOU DECIDE! I get to decide what to do.....I do......Not someone else for me......

I do not see one thing that tells me that if I do not follow the guidelines (not edicts), I am not a good Catholic.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

So, the bishops do not tell me how to vote, huh? Wow, that is news isn't it? (heavy, heavy sarcasm alert)

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

God's truth according to the Catholic church, and if you don't follow that truth then you must not have a properly formed conscience.

Just because "the Church" says it, doesn't mean it's true. Sorry, but that's how it is. And in case anyone thinks I'm anti-Catholic--I feel that all churches/religions fall within the same pitfalls.

NO ONE knows which church/religion is "the one" that God endorses personally and would attend should he assume human form.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

They can not tell you how to vote...because of IRS rules..tax except for church.
They can advise you how to vote.

Same way with Obama's church..they can advise you how to vote, but not how to vote.

What the hell does Obama's church have to do with advising me how to vote?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Or any church..I ONLY use Obama's church as an example.

But, the point is no "church" can tell you how to vote..only advise you. Because of IRS rules..no other reason.

Edited to add: A church can give you a voting guide. Explaining the church's views on different issues. It can contain the differnt candidates views. They can not come out and say in actual (name) terms..who to vote for or not vote for.

This is what is scary to me as a person who was raised Catholic but could no longer remain in a church which was punitive without being compassionate. The church is trying to "form to form their consciences" smacks of brainwashing put in kinder and gentler terms. Each individual should be able to vote their own conscience, based on their beliefs without restriction or strict "guidance", especially knowing that if your own INFORMED decision veers from the "suggestion" of the Church guidelines, they will still have a place to worship without having to feel guilty. My God is a kind, open-minded, compassionate God who encourages me to think for myself and allow others to do so also. My God knows everyone and accepts them for whom they are, warts and all.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I could be wrong, but like Kathy said in a previous post she was just clarifying something for someone else.

This my be how she feels....but it is what the Catholic church says, not her. She has tried desparately to make that clear......I don't see what the problem is. So you don't like her opinion. I don' t agree with her all teh time either.....but why harrass. Don't like it?? Don't read it.

Again...............WHAT KATHY POSTED WAS TO CLARIFY THE CHURCHES POSITION ON VOTING. NOTICE "GOOD" WAS IN QUOTATIONS. SHE IS NOT PASSING A JUDGEMENT HERE, BUT SHARING CHURCH INFO..........................

Thank you very much for understanding what I was trying to do!!! Bless you for being so kind!!!

I understood exactly what you were saying, Kathy. You didn't judge anyone. You just clarified what the Catholic position is.
If I wore the badge "Democrat" and believed the way I do, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single committed Democrat who thought that *I* was a 'good' Democrat. If I don't support the planks in the Democratic platform that are most important to the ones who get to define what a Democrat *is*, how can I *be* a good Democrat?

If I were to picket an abortion clinic (which I'd never do) ... could I *be* a *good* Democrat?

And if not... why not?

I have to think that if I did that, most Democrats would disavow me and tell me to go find a different party because what I was doing was in direct conflict with the core of what Democrats consider to be their platform.

I understand you to be describing the Kennedy relationship in that way. You didn't say he was going to hell or anything. You didn't even say he wasn't a good person.

Edited to add:

In another thread, a poster indicated that if Clinton is not chosen for the VP slot, that poster will not be voting for Obama. A poster or two took her to task, saying, "With Democrats like you, we don't need any...."... and now I've forgotten what it said, but there weren't a lot of warm fuzzies from the Democratic Faithful for that kind of attitude.

If a Democrat took that tack and went on national television and said, "I refuse to endorse Obama because he did NOT choose Hillary as his VP!", right after the Democratic Party gave Obama their full support as the Democratic candidate at the convention, would Democrats say that a person actively campaigning against what the Democratic party said it believes in was a "good" Democrat?

Although the GOP has done a fine job of marching in lockstep behind Bush, Democrats allow diversity of thinking.

No, if you read the rest of Kathy's posts on this subject it is obvious that she is judging those who are pro choice and Catholic.

The way the post could have read that would not have been judgemental if she wanted to "share" her google skills with us and print what she found would have been to post just the quote and left it at that. But because she has posted that Sen Kennedy is not a good Catholic because of his stance on abortion, that Catholics who are pro choice are not good Catholics, that is a judgement.

Opinion is........usually stated with "in my opinion". Not stated as fact. I don't believe for one minute that she was just printing this info for someone's benefit to inform them of what they already know is the Catholic doctrine on abortion. She did it to hone in on her "judgement" that anyone who believes in pro choice is not a "good" Catholic and to condemn Sen. Kennedy and anyone who is Catholic and pro choice (note I didn't say pro abortion. I didn't see anywhere that the bishops said that anyone who does not vote for the candidate or platform they endorse, would be considered a "bad" Catholic or they might as well be a Protestant if they "disobey".

Perhaps it is semantics but it is without a doubt a judgement, that makes Kathy look less than kind, less than understanding of someone elses path towards God. I do not understand her need to judge what someone elses relationship with their church or God. It is unfathomable to me. But to each his own.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

No, they wouldn't, they need all the votes they can get Just a little interjection of humor folks. I felt like we needed it

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Here is part of what KTS posted:

Once again, this thread is not to argue the teachings of the Catholic Church. You are free to choose not to be a Catholic. However, to be a "good" Catholic (a Catholic in line with the beliefs of the church) you are supposed to follow the teaching of the church. Yes, there are many, many Catholics who don't follow the guidelines of the Church but that doesn't make the guidelines incorrect, it makes that Catholic a person not acting in accordance with Church Doctrine. I hope this helps clear up some of the question brought up in the other thread.
(CCC=Catechism of the Catholic Church, PCPL=Doctrinal Note on Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life and EV=Evangelium Vitae.)

I am not seeing where she mentions Senator Kennedy. I saw this post as her posting the information that she found in reference to following the guidelines of the Catholic Church.

My take on this line by Kathy "However, to be a "good" Catholic (a Catholic in line with the beliefs of the church) you are supposed to follow the teaching of the church." is that based on her findings that she posted, you are not in line with the beliefs of the Catholic church if you don't follow the posted "guidelines". I think had she not used the word "good" (although I understood what she meant - she meant good , as in following the beliefs of the Catholic church) it would not have seemed as judgemental.

I liken it to breaking the law. If you are driving in a 55mph zone, and you go 75 (or anything above 55) you are not abiding the law. Therefore, you are not a "good" driver.

I get it Kathy. Don't agree with everything you always say, but, the way I am reading this post, I get it.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Perhaps you didn't read the rest of her posts on other threads....I am not going to go find the posts she posted re: Senator Kennedy and his brain tumor and his subsequent death and where he might find himself but it was clear that she did not consider him a good Catholic because of his support of the law as it stands. I don't have time to find said posts as I am late for mass this morning.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

no, no....I remember the post. I just thought you were referring to something in THIS post that showed judgement of Senator Kennedy.

thanks for clarifying.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well I am not a good Catholic I am a GREAT Catholic. The basis of the Church is to BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER not to look at your neighbor to see if they are good or bad. The Church is involved with feeding, caring for, and tending to the spiritual needs of people all over the world. When someone goes to Church or to Catholic Charities to either volunteer or to get food or diapers or help with medicine nobody cares about if you are pro choice or not.

And just for the record I would never have an abortion however I will fight my last breath for the right of women to choose to do so. I have worked in social services enough years to know that it is a blessing in some cases because if some children were born they would not live long or if they did would not have any chance for a decent life.
How would you like to live life knowing you are the result of an 11 yr old being raped by her father, uncle, brother, grandpa, priest?
I have also lived through a time when abortion was illegal and I can assure you abortions have been going on since the first human woman walked the earth. Italy, the most Catholic of the countries, has had legal abortions for years. For the record the Church's doetrines don't allow birth control so abortion was used as birth control in Italy for decades.

No birth control and no abortion is the doctrine of a Church from centuries ago that had a need to populate the world and have more Catholics everywhere. What would the world be like today if all Catholics practiced both no birth control and no abortion?

We are not to judge each other. I don't care what it says in writing like I said before I am sure there are things we all do everyday which might us "bad" Americans but we don't give up our citizenship.

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

Great post. I am a great Catholic as well. I do not see the world in the colors of black and white. I am not limited in how I view the world as to see only good and evil. I am not hypocritcal in my views on the human condition and how I can help someone to have a better life. As a Catholic, I applaud those of us who will roll up our sleeve and put into action Social Justice....not point fingers, plant bombs, cut off financial means as a way to punish those less fortunate than myself.

You also get a glass of wine!

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

But... you very obviously show hatred to people who are against abortion.

Love the tolerance. I can feel the love.

Please post anywhere where I have posted hatred towards people who are against abortion......

Hatred is a very strong word and I am sure I didn't use in the context that I hate people who aren't with me in pro choice.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I'm not Catholic, but I don't quite think this is correct. I don't know that the basis of the church is to bring people together. I would assume that the basis of the church is to bring people to God. It is my understanding that in the Catholic faith, if you aren't a Catholic, you are considered lost, and that acts of kindness aren't supposed to be an end unto themselves, but rather as a first step towards bringing that person to a knowledge and understanding of their Creator. So it's not about bringing people together - it's about bringing people to God.... because if they're not 'in' the Catholic church, according to Catholic teaching, they are doomed to hell.

Actually, I think this is what Kathy was trying to say. She didn't say Ted Kennedy had given up his 'citizenship' as a Catholic. She essentially said that he was scoring *badly* on the checklist of "Things that Make a Guy a Good, Practicing Catholic".

OTOH, he might make a *good* Unitarian....

Well, let's just say you aren't sharing your wine with people who have a different opinion than you...

Once again my thread was NOT to debate whether or not you agree with the Catholic Church or me. It was simply posted to be educational for anyone who was interested. US, Marilyn, etc...can't you play nice and stop judging me??? That is not tolerant of you. I have judged no one other than stating a FACT-someone like the senator is NOT following the guidelines of the Catholic Church. That is a truthful statement whether you like it or not or whether or not you agree with it. You "tolerant" posters can throw all kinds of insults my way (shut the F up for example) if it makes you feel better but it still will not change the fact that Senator Kennedy is not in line with the Catholic Church and therefore not a "good" Catholic. I also stated in a post on the other thread that I hope EVERYONE goes to Heaven. How you come up with all the judgments, names, intolerance for what I said is beyond me.
By the way, I did not "google" this information. I purchased a "Guidelines for Catholic Voters" brochure published by Our Sunday Visitor. They have a website in case you want to verify what I have posted.
Please keep this ON TOPIC. (Thanks for all the supportive people on here-YOU ROCK!!!)

If you would like a glass of wine you may have one......

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

[quote=wowitsdark;2998229]
of their Creator. So it's not about bringing people together - it's about bringing people to God.... because if they're not 'in' the Catholic church, according to Catholic teaching, they are doomed to hell.

Actually as Catholics we believe in the Mercy of God and assume no judgments on where anyone is ending up. Things might not look good (Hitler) and we might make assumptions but no one on Earth knows for sure. We also do not believe that anyone outside of the Catholic Church is doomed to hell. Not sure where that came from but it's certainly not Catholic Doctrine. There's some joke out there about all the Protestants having a great time in Heaven. someone asks God where are all the Catholics? and God answers "they're over in a separate ares, they think they are the only ones going to Heaven". I thought the joke was pretty funny. I'm sure some Catholics believe they are the only ones but they aren't following Catholic Doctrine. And no, that doesn't make them a "bad" Catholic, it makes them an uninformed Catholic!!

"That's what I always think of when I think of Ted Kennedy. His negligence in that accident. That and he is one of the most liberal senators and a Catholic. You can't be a good Catholic and be liberal. For a Kennedy man he's lived a pretty long life. Hopefully he gets right with God before he passes."

"If you are truly Catholic and follow the guidelines of the Catholic Church you cannot vote pro-choice and Kennedy certainly has. If he doesn't want to be a good Catholic then he should be a Protestant, Pretty simple logic'

"Yep, it's a sin to use contraception if you are a Catholic. NFP is a very good form of birth control if used properly. I used it to get pregnant and it worked like a charm.
The Senator is not in line with the Catholic Church and if he wants to be a good Catholic he needs to go to Confession. I'm not being judgmental. It is the doctrine of the church."

These are quotes from a previous thread on Sen Kennedy. By Kathy. How do you interpret these statements in line with your post. She has stated that if he doesn't want to be a good Catholic, and he is not a good Catholic because he is a liberal therefore simple logic means he should be a Protestant. He is not in line with the Catholic Church and should go to confession. To me, these smack of judgement and judgement of all Catholics. Her statement that she assumes no judgement as to where anyone will end up, is inferred by her statement "Hopefully he gets right with God before he passes". what else could that mean except that if he doesn't get right he will not be seeing God, don't you think?

Are your postings bringing people closer to God or further away from investigating the Church and Christ? I think that the fire and brimstone act is all played out and is encouraging people to not want to be feel like you do or to have anything to do with what you believe. That is sad and I know that you do not want to come off like that, or I would hope not.

And those people who have suppported me, I thank you and I hear you! Thanks.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Do you think we should tell her it's a wine tasting party and an Obama fund raiser.

For the record, I am not pro abortion, I don't think that anyone is. I am pro choice. And there are many choices but I want those options.

Thank you for playing.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Nah, cuz then she might not come!

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Hold your horses missy! The one post I made was not in response to you but to Forrestlayne! I didn't judge you


Actually, I comprehended the thought you were trying to convey. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I got it.

Yeah, Yeah, I know I'm viewed badly by those who are "pro-life"/"anti-choice"...and you may be confused on what thread we're dealing with here--but sweetcheeks, I did not judge you or bash you in this thread. My one and only response wasn't even directed at you.

Thank you, please drive thru...

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Goodness gracious, sweet irony!

I am not against nor do I hate people who are against abortion. I do think it's odd that the same people who are against abortion normally are also against any welfare or most other social service agencies that provide for children.

If you are "pro-life" as they say, and you do nothing to help children that are less fortunate after they are already born that makes you a hypocrite so I hope all the people who are posting who think abortion should be made illegal are volunteering their time at Head Start, abused children's shelters, soup kitchens, the free clinic, fostering unwanted, neglected, and abused children, and if every person who voted against abortion has not tried to adopt a child then what the heck? What are people supposed to do? And why are you not helping them? If you are whether you are "pro-choice" or "pro-life" then God bless you!

Some of the notions expressed here are oh so old. The Catholic church and it's doctrines were for the most part self serving. Let's take the idea of "limbo" or "pergatory". The Church MADE THESE UP. There is no basis in the Bible nor anywhere else for this "place". Now that it no longer serves the Church they have officially recanted the idea of "limbo".

So I guess we need to ask ourselves: even though we align ourselves with a religion do we go by what we know God wants for us and is right for us or do we adhere strictly to the written words of an entity that is as corrupt as any entity run by humans and who have been known (Nicene council for example) to distort the sacred writings to enforce their will on the people?

Remember even though I am Catholic and love my church for the most part we are talking about the same entity that hid pedophiles and moved them here and there to protect the "good name" of the Church.

If anyone here believes totally word for word ANYTHING I don't care if it's the Bible or Driver's Manual or The Joy of Cooking then that person has a problem with reality. Everything was written by humans no matter where they got the words they interpreted them in a special way just as each one of you are interpreting this a different way.

Basically whether you are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, Baptist, or whatever each one of us knows in our hearts what is right and how to treat other people. We don't need somebody to tell us.

Do you really care whether someone else thinks you are good anything? Unless they are misinterpreting me for example thinking I am a thief when I am not then I don't care if you or you or he or she thinks I am "good" or "bad".

Remember when you point the finger at someone three other fingers are pointing right back at you.

And it cracks me up when someone who is sounding so righteous and judgemental says "don't judge me". Funnier than "I Love Lucy".

__________________
The political system is broke and it's a joke.

I love I Love Lucy too! great post, by the way.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

If Marilyn, US and Tammy are Democrats they absolutely do NOT allow diverstiy of thinking. Other wise there would be no "shut the F up" remarks would there??????

Ya know, there are a lot more pro-choice Republicans than anti-choice Democrats.

Which party is it again that allows more divergant views?

f you are "pro-life" as they say, and you do nothing to help children that are less fortunate after they are already born that makes you a hypocrite so I hope all the people who are posting who think abortion should be made illegal are volunteering their time at Head Start, abused children's shelters, soup kitchens, the free clinic, fostering unwanted, neglected, and abused children, and if every person who voted against abortion has not tried to adopt a child then what the heck? AS I HAVE STATED MANY, MANY, TIMES, ALL MY PROLIFE FRIENDS DO THIS. ONE OF THEM HAS JUST ADOPTED A CHILD AND IS IN THE PROCESS OF ADOPTING ANOTHER ONE. IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT AS A SINGLE MOM IN THIS COUNTRY WITH TITLE 19, WIC, FOOD STAMPS, HEADSTART, ETC... THEN THAT PERSON IS DOING SOMETHING WRONG. IT'S NOT EASY BUT IT'S DOABLE.
Let's take the idea of "limbo" or "pergatory". THERE TOTALLY IS BIBLICAL REFERENCES TO PURGATORY. I DON'T KNOW THEM OFFHAND BUT HAVE HEARD THE VERSES QUOTED ON APOLOGETICS RADIO PROGRAMS. IT'S AVAILABLE IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE TIME TO FIND IT.

And it cracks me up when someone who is sounding so righteous and judgemental says "don't judge me". OTHER THAN CALLING TED KENNEDY NOT A "GOOD CATHOLIC" WHERE HAVE I JUDGED ANYONE?????? I HAVEN'T. I HAVE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE REFERENCING HOW HE IS NOT IN LINE WITH THE CHURCH. NOT INSULTING HIM PERSONALLY JUST STATING HE'S NOT IN LINE WITH THE CHURCH. AFTERALL HE HAS A 100% POSITIVE RATING WITH NARAL. ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK I'M SO JUDGMENTAL-YOU REALLY THINK A CATHOLIC WITH A 100% POSITIVE RANKING WITH NARAL CAN BE A GOOD CATHOLIC WHEN THEY HAVE A LIFETIME OF NOT FOLLOWING AN ABSOLUTE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? PLEASE GET YOURSELF INTO REALITY.

Kathy, purgatory isn't addressed in a 66-book Bible. Yours has the Apocrypha. Those of us who are Christian and not Catholic view the books that make up the Apocrypha as probably historically accurate, but not the inspired word of God... therefore, Purgatory isn't in a Bible that isn't a Catholic Bible.

I don't understand the blatant double standards of some on this thread.

I see people who profess to being Catholic throwing out challenges to those who are Catholic AND pro-life - in effect *daring* pro-life Catholics (which just means supporting one of the main teachings of our faith in this modern-day society) to get even more involved in their beliefs if they REALLY are pro-life.

What is that???

It seems very un-Christian to be so judgemental as to challenge those of us who are pro-life. We are pro-life because we believe that life begins at conception. Period. If we are pro-life, then we believe abortion is killing, and killing is breaking a commandment. Thus, we believe a mortal sin has been committed. That is the teaching of the Catholic church.

The Catholic teachings are exactly as Kathy has stated them. As unpopular as it may be, there it is. You can either choose to embrace it or not. If you don't, then I don't believe Kathy, me, or anyone else has the right to judge you. That is for the Lord.

It was not always easy for people to truly accept Jesus's teachings and follow Him when he was here. So it is very understandable that it is very difficult now, too. I understand that.

Why are some so quick to judge? Kathy was really flamed for simply putting out some information. It wasn't popular, but it was what someone else didn't think existed (on another thread). Don't shoot the messenger!

If you don't choose to read it, or believe it, or live it, then that's your choice. But withhold, please, from bashing Kathy, as well as the pro-life stand of the Catholic church.

Leave the judging to the Lord.

And I invite EVERYONE to have a drink!

WTF? I do not recall ever having told you to shut up....certainly not in this thread. Now, if you are talking about some other thread--I may have and don't recall it. And if I did, I do apologize--as I have stated before: The only time I responded in this thread was to something Forrestlayne posted. Wasn't even remotely directed at you.

Good Grief! I have not problem w/ diverse thinking. I have no issues w/ agreeing to disagree.

Let's see--I was compared to a rapist, terrorist and a child molester--but I didn't lump every Catholic or every Republican or conservative into the same group...

Now, not that I mind being lumped in w/ Truble or usnamom. In fact I think I've been lumped w/ Truble before, but goodness! I haven't done anything in this thread!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I AM challenging those of you who profess to be "prolife". If you are doing something in your daily life to make the lives of underprivileged children better then you have put your money where your mouth is. If you just insist that people give birth for your moral reasons then I surely hope you are helping those chilren and women.
If you are not then you have nothing to say.

Pergatory/Limbo were MADE UP by the Catholic Church. Since the beginning most organized "religions" had more to do with controlling the people than with "bringing people closer to God" (this includes making things up to suit their needs)if you don't believe me study/research/ask someone who knows about ancient history and the history of the Church/other churches.

So I am wondering how you justify that. If a doctrine was invented to control people then why should I consider it "sacred"? Why should I be considered a "bad" Catholic?

If whomever was the President of the USA made it illegal to listen to rock and roll music and deemed every American who listened to it was breaking the law would that make me a bad American? Would you all stop listening?

Well my ancestors followed Catholicism from the begiining (I come from a long line of Italians) and I guarantee you the rules have changed. Nobody here has even brought up Vatican II when the Church changed all kindsof things and started allowing all kinds of things.

I waited to bring it up to see if any of you who are quoting doctrine would mention it. Educate yourselves. It changed many things and my point is if the Church can make things up and change their mind about doctrine on a whim then how can it be "sacred"? Maybe in twenty or fifty or a hundred years they'll change their view on abortion as they did so many things before.

Then what?

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The political system is broke and it's a joke.

But Anna, is it truly considered 'changing their minds' when you're talking about Catholicism and edicts that come from the Pope?

Not being Catholic, I may not understand it correctly, but I was under the belief that because of the concept of apostolic succession that the Pope was presumed to be revealing God's current will. If the Pope revealed something in one age that was revealed to be different in another, would the Catholic church not view that as simply a change in God's will for man for that time, rather than a fallibility?

Within my faith, I answer to God and only to God. Our church has a set of elders, but they are there more to guide and assist in disputes than anything. They don't presume to reveal anything 'new' from God, but rather to simply do their best to interpret the inspired word that's been around for thousands of years. While anyone who presumes to be a teacher of others is said to be held to a higher standard by God, they aren't considered 'inspired' in any supernatural line-of-succession way, so I admit I don't fully have a handle on Catholic doctrine there.

Matthew Chapter 12 verses 32-46, 5:26 and 18:34-35. Let's not debate it and argue about this-it's just an answer to your question.

Quote: Well my ancestors followed Catholicism from the begiining (I come from a long line of Italians) and I guarantee you the rules have changed. Nobody here has even brought up Vatican II when the Church changed all kindsof things and started allowing all kinds of things.

I waited to bring it up to see if any of you who are quoting doctrine would mention it. Educate yourselves. It changed many things and my point is if the Church can make things up and change their mind about doctrine on a whim then how can it be "sacred"? Maybe in twenty or fifty or a hundred years they'll change their view on abortion as they did so many things before.

Then what?[/quote]

No, they will NOT change their minds on abortion.
To educate YOU, Catholic DOCTRINE will not change. All the other traditions, etc... can be changed or modified like in Vatican II for instance. But the root doctrine stays the same.

Marilyn-you have not been nice to me many times. It was not you that said the shut up line, it was one of the others I stated. But I was making the point that you and several others can be downright mean. Just because you didn't say that one quote doesn't mean you don't say mean and condeming things to/about me.

You'll have to show me where I said "shut the F up," would you?

When you can't -- since I didn't -- then you need to take that advice, whoever gave it.

I get to express an opinion on the stuff you say, just like you get to express an opinion on what I say. "Being mean," as you said, goes both ways. There's a world of difference between allow diversity of thinking and believing that some people's thinking makes a whit of sense. As far as I'm concerned, you can think anything you like, but I have the option to think your views are wrong, uninformed and/or dangerous. That's not squashing diversity of thinking at all. That's disagreeing.

What you don't get to do is tell flat-out lies. I'm pretty sure Catholicism is against lying, isn't it?

Guess you're not such a great Catholic yourself, are you?