What are your thoughts on this? McCain voted against it, and Obama voted for it, saying we can't appreciate our veterans enough.

Thoughts?

McCain defends opposition to GI Bill - CNN.com

McCain, Obama spar on GI bill - USATODAY.com


I can't find a link that details the bill.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Since McCain has been in the military and understands it very well I trust the reasons he listed.

The bill was sponsored by Jim Webb, In many ways, Webb's military training and experience exceeds that of John McCain's, IMO, and he's at least, if not far more qualified, to speak on this issue.

As I understand it, the bill provides for our current military the same sorts of benefits the military received during WWII. How can any military man vote against such a bill? How could anyone say that the current soldiers deserve less than those of 60 years ago?

First, I think it was a cheap shot for Obama to drag McCain into his speech on the Senate floor. That is what started the back and forth jabs over miltary service.
McCain chose to not vote on this bill, was on the campaign trail, not in Washington. There has been lots of votes that Obama and Hillary chose to stay out on the campaign trail and miss.

From what I have read McCain does want to increase of benfits to the miltary. Just a different type of bill.
He thinks that this type of bill would not promote the idea of someone making the miltary their life.And having a sound miltary leadership in place (Generals, etc). He thinks that giving certain benefits people will only go into the miltary to get their free education, etc, then leave the service quickly.

My only problem with anything being offered is how in the world is the taxpayers going to pay for everything.

I did notice something in Obama's speech that got me thinking. He was pointing out in rural area some veterans have to drive hours to get to a VA hospital. And that he would like to see at least "clincs" build closer.
Sounds nice but I would think very expensive for the taxpayer.
One idea that came to my mind: Of course it might not work either.
I think it would make more sense to spend the money and upgrade local hospitals, clinics to be able to handle veterans (special needs). That way it would benefit a whole larger group of people. Maybe have a type of veterans insurance card. Hospitals already bill for medicaid, medicare, government programs.

I do believe most people want to show our thanks to miltary service people. But there is only so much money to go around for all the different programs that Americans want.

So a man who is gung-ho the troops chose to stay on the campaign trail for a nomination he already has rather than vote on a critical bill to support the troops?

A far lesser bill.

He didn't, did he?

The bill requires at least three years of service. I don't imagine that three years in a hellhole like Iraq goes quickly -- if you even live through it.

Interesting that there's money for a five year war, but no money for either decent healthcare or post-service benefits for the troops when they come home.

I believe firmly that, if the American people were polled, most would be in favor of the bill and against the war in Iraq.

"So a man who is gung-ho the troops chose to stay on the campaign trail for a nomination he already has rather than vote on a critical bill to support the troops?"

I could pulled up the information I am sure of "critical" bills that both Hillary, Obama chose to miss or only vote present on. So what he chose not to vote on a bill..that is the way the Senate works.

"A far lesser bill."

I am not for sure..it would be a lesser bill..maybe not the same benefits. But not everyone thiinks certain benefits are all that great. Not everyone is able mentally or wants a college education. So people view value of benefits differently.

"He thinks that this type of bill would not promote the idea of someone making the miltary their life."

John McCain has injuries from his years of being tortured. I do not think, even know if he is qualifed to staying in the service.

"The bill requires at least three years of service. I don't imagine that three years in a hellhole like Iraq goes quickly -- if you even live through it."

Of course, this bill would applied to any mitary service just not in Iraq. Some places where our miltary people are stationed are peaceful countries.

"Interesting that there's money for a five year war, but no money for either decent healthcare or post-service benefits for the troops when they come home."

The bottom line is there is NO money for anything. The country is in massive debt. We can not afford anything.

"I believe firmly that, if the American people were polled, most would be in favor of the bill and against the war in Iraq."
I do believe that polled they would be against the war in Iraq. But I do not know if they would vote for this "entire bill".

Obama is only against this war. I will try to find the exact quote.. but Obama has stated he is not against wars only stupid ones. So, he is not anti-war..just anti-Iraq war because he views it as a stupid war.

ETA: October 2002 Speech: Against Going to War With Iraq - CommonDreams.org
Uses the word "dumb". In some cases uses the word "stupid". I think the essence of what he is saying is the same.

I challenge you to do so. Find me a bill that relates to one of the critical aspects of their platforms that they missed in favor of fundraising.

It's a lesser bill. No one who's familiar with it doubts that. No one is required to take advantage of the benefits if they don't want to. I'm not sure anyone not able mentally, per your words, to be in college should be in the military either.

So what? When you enlist, you don't know what kind of hellhole you'll end up in. Nor do you know where the next war will break out. There's no guarantee that anyone will be in a peaceful land for the duration of their enlistment. Are you saying that only people who are in dangerous places should receive military benefits?

We can save billions each month by getting out of Iraq. We're in massive debt BECAUSE of that war.

What's your point? That's what I said. I didn't say people are against all wars, just the war in Iraq.

Senate votes missed so far in the 110th Congress
Sen. Barack Obama 41.8 percent of votes missed.
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton 31.7 percent of votes missed,
I will look up the exact bills and the ones that were voted present on when I have more time.
ETA: The farm bill ... None of the three senators running for president -- McCain,Clinton, and Obama -- voted on the bill. Obama and McCain skipped the vote Thursday(same day as the vote on the Dem. GI bill) on overriding President Bush's veto of the Farm Bill, Clinton voted nay.


"We can save billions each month by getting out of Iraq. We're in massive debt BECAUSE of that war."

We are in massive debt for alot of reasons..this war just being one of the reasons.

Since "we" have not read the entire bill (only what the media tells us) I do not know if I would agree with the entire bill or not. When they vote on bills ..most of the time others things are attached to it that has nothing to do with the essence of the bill. That is only one reason someone might oppose the bill.

That's interesting, but not what I asked. Funny that you forgot to include the top vote-misser.


Primarily because of the war. 3.5 billion PER WEEK.

Link

Maybe YOU haven't, but I have and you're certainly capable of reading it if you're interested. In any event, McCain is clear why he opposes the bill -- he thinks it's too generous for enlistees.

(Forrestlayne)"I could pulled up the information I am sure of "critical" bills that both Hillary, Obama chose to miss or only vote present on. So what he chose not to vote on a bill..that is the way the Senate works."
(truble2301) "I challenge you to do so. Find me a bill that relates to one of the critical aspects of their platforms that they missed in favor of fundraising."

(forrestlayne)My entire answer..not just pulled out sections
"Senate votes missed so far in the 110th Congress
Sen. Barack Obama 41.8 percent of votes missed.
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton 31.7 percent of votes missed,
I will look up the exact bills and the ones that were voted present on when I have more time.
ETA: The farm bill ... None of the three senators running for president -- McCain,Clinton, and Obama -- voted on the bill. Obama and McCain skipped the vote Thursday(same day as the vote on the Dem. GI bill) on overriding President Bush's veto of the Farm Bill, Clinton voted nay."

I think that does answer your question both Obama and Clinton have talked about the Farm bill in their platforms (speeches).

I don't consider "talking about" and "critical" the same thing.

This whole issue about the GI bill is policitally using it.
Obama's advisors know that they have a problem battling McCain war record (image). And the fact that Obama has no military experience.

Obama's campaign is trying to make McCain look bad because he did not show up to vote on the GI bill. Policitally McCain probably made a choice to not vote..because Obama's campaign would have a chance to twist that into something more.

There were some Senators that did vote no on the GI bill. Are all these people against the military personel getting benefits? I doubt it..for whatever reason they did vote against it.

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

I don't disagree with that. I just think that choice was cowardly on McCain's part.

No, of course not, they're just for far lesser benefits.

"I don't disagree with that. I just think that choice was cowardly on McCain's part."

Clinton has pointed to Obama's "present" votes on the abortion issue in the Illinois Legislature to raise questions about his support for abortion rights.

'Present' votes defended by Ill. lawmakers

Of course there is a "difference" in voting present or not voting at all. Some also view voting present also as not be willing to stand one way or the other.

That's true. But anyone who bothers to investigate the reasons for it doesn't think that. It's much like a someone in committee voting against a bill, even when they support it, because by voting it down they have the procedural right to raise it again later. Sometimes people do things that don't make sense on the face of it because it will benefit down the road.

Can you tell me what McCain gains by refusing to vote on that GI bill? Maybe the political cover of never being accused of voting against it, even though that was the effet?

I guess he might not be in favor of the bill. But figured if he showed up and voted "no" that would have been policitally worse.
I think more of a case for political motive than anything else.
I think Obama was making a policital move also by bringing McCain into his speech in the Senate before the vote. Trying to tie McCain and Bush together.
Just politics.

Does anyone know the current educational benefit plan for the military??

I, too, would have voted no to the new GI Bill. This reminds me of another thread, I think it was the one where Obama didn't wear a flag pin, and one poster said something about patriotism being wrapped in the flag.....ahhh, it was a great comment. I'll have to pull it up. But, to me, this is right on the mark with that. Just because someone serves their country doesn't mean we owe them everything, and just because someone votes against a benefit for the military doesn't always speak poorly for them.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

The bill is far from everything; it's what GIs returning from WWII got. Do the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan deserved less than the those GIs got? Yes, according to McCain.

As to your last comment, it's not just his stance on this bill that makes me think poorly of McCain, FWIW.

I noticed alot of articles point to WWII but at that time there was a draft in place. Now it is a purely voluntary to join. The government uses these type of benefits to make it more worthwhile to join up.

It does encourage more of the lower income level to join up because it is a way that they think will get them to a better life ..college benfits. Of course some people enjoy military life and join for that reason only..as a way of life.

Again, I ask, does anyone know the CURRENT educational benefits offered to the military?

Truble, I know you don't care for McCain, and no matter how he voted on this bill that would likely not change. Noted.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Just trying to dig up some links to read up on about the current bill, and the WWII GI bill benefits:

Much More Money for Veterans? :: Inside Higher Ed :: Higher Education's Source for News, Views and Jobs

Current GI Bill: Learn to Use Your GI Bill - Education - Military.com

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I completely agree.

From allinaugust:

"Truble, I know you don't care for McCain, and no matter how he voted on this bill that would likely not change"

I'd have a darn sight more respect for him if he gave more than lip service to veterans benefits. His bill was overwhelmingly rejected, so clearly I'm far from the only one unimpressed by his efforts.

FWIW, I've read the the Webb bill will cost $5 billion/year. The war in Iraq costs 3.4 billion/week. I know where I'd far rather my tax dollars go and it's not into the quagmire in the Iraq.

Your second link is very good.
You can follow it to this page
Veteran GI Bill User's Guide - Education - Military.com

Also if you want more information try google "The Montgomery GI Bill " it might give you more answers.

Yes, I know. We're taking full advantage of the benefits, just wanted to know if anyone else actually KNOWS the current plan(s) in place??? How can you say someone should or shouldn't vote for something without knowing what is currently in place

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Are you basing his "lip service to veterans" on just this bill?

I respect that, and I'm not debating the bill from a monetary standpoint (at this point anyway )

Still wondering if you know what the current educational benefits are???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Why do you keep asking us for the current benefits? Some reason you can't look them up yourself? A quick Google search led me to a stack of sites comparing the current benefits with the proposed bill.

As for his lip service, supporting Bush's war is a clear indication to me that McCain doesn't give a rip about the troops. The troops were put in in insufficient numbers, with crappy gear and are being treated poorly when they come home. So that all factors into the equation.

No, I definitely know the current benefits. It just seems to me that McCain is being bashed for not voting for this new bill just because he is McCain, and this is a benefit for the military, and oh how dare he not vote for this. There is an EXCELLENT plan currently in place for educational benefits for our military, why should he vote for this?? It would also encourage people to join for the minimum time needed to get this new education benefit, and then BYE BYE. So, we'd have a higher turn over rate. It is the enlisted ranks that "train" the officer ranks, and that is who this bill would mostly benefit.

Thanks for clarifying your opinion.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

You might have a higher turnover rate, but you would also have a greater influx of recruits. In the long run, it would enable the troops not to undergo tour after tour in combat zones. Maybe it would lessen the instances of PTSD.

You would also expose more people to the advantages of a career in the military.

Why?
Is it easier to just follow/trust blindly than to do some research and make your own decision? Albeit it may be the same decision; But, personally, I prefer to research and come to conclusions based on that research than to just blindly trust/follow a politician.

I'm not bashing, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't do their own research and form an independent, informed opinion.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The reasons he gave made sense to me. I trust him more than most politicians when it comes to military decisions because of his experience. That's not blindly trusting.

With all due respect to McCain, and I do respect that he suffered greatly for this country, his military experience doesn't exceed that of Jim Webb and Jim Webb quite clearly supports the bill. Trusting McCain because he was in the military, without more, is indeed blindly trusting.


Because this is a far better plan and McCain claims to whole-heartedly support the troops.

So, by this thinking, he should vote yes to anything that would benefit the military?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Where did I say that? Oh yeah -- nowhere.

I also meant to mention that I would dispute your evaluation of the current plan as "excellent."

but WHY did they make sense to you?

I know that I'm irritating, but I don't understand your rationale.

It's like going to a Dr. and that Dr. telling you: "you have the plague and will die in 14 days", well that may make sense to me--but you can be darned sure I'm going to do some research and get at least a second opinion! Why? Because even though the 1st person is a Dr (and very well may be correct), I want to know for myself (by doing research, getting a second opinion, etc.) that there isn't another option or route to take.

Same w/ this issue: McCain very well could be "correct" in his reasoning, and it may make sense, but I would like to come to that conclusion based on what I know--not what HE says.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

1. I don't have the time nor the desire to research every single issue out there. What I read about McCains reasons are good enough for me. As least I read them.
2. I would get many opinions on my health too. But that's a whole lot different than ONE issue out there in the political world.
3. I totally trust McCain over Obama in military issues. Doesn't John also have a son serving in the military now? And his father was in the military too. All reasons to trust that he thinks these things through and comes up with what he thinks is the best. That's all I can hope for.

1) you read McCain's opinions... well, good for you? I read lots of opinions daily--and while they make sense, I still question and research. Maybe it's just my inquisitive nature
2) it may be a lot different to YOU, but to someone who may be affected by this ONE issue--it's very important
3) WOW! Just Wow! You trust McCain over Obama--simply because McCain was military and has military family members? And you just hope for the best based on the idea that McCain thinks things through?

And this isn't picking on you because it's McCain. I would say the same exact thing to Jaded or Truble if they had responded the way you did!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Jim Webb was in the military, in far higher positions that McCain ever attained, in fact. And his son was in Iraq. So why not trust Jim Webb's opinion, which is contrary to that of McCain's?

I am surprised that you hold Jim Webb in such good regards. ETA: I didn't mean it judgemental..just meant by the way you post.
There was a scandal during the last couple of days before the election between George Allen and Webb.
It was concerning some parts of Jim Webb's fiction books.

Jim Webb's Books 'Racist, Misogynistic,' Conservative Critic Says -- 10/27/2006
ETA: this is only one person's opinion..but it does include some parts from the books.

Jim Webb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good for you that you have the time to research EVERY bill, etc... that comes up! Someone is affected by every issue.
No need to continue explaining myself. If my reasons don't suit you that's cool. I'm happy with them.

the question was "why should he vote for this???" Your answer was that McCain whole-heartedly supports the troops. This is a bill that would benefit the troops, yes?? So, therefore, by your reasoning, he should vote for it. You said it, not me.


Really??? There are people in the military now getting their college education paid for. You don't consider that to be excellent?? Have you or your spouse used the Educational Benefits that the military offer?? Do you know the "intimate" details of the educational benefits??? Not asking you to spell them out for me, I know them quite well, just looking for a yes or no answer.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'm very much in agreement with this thinking. I feel the same way. Sadly, people do follow things "blindly" just because of who says them. Not just in politics, either.

Not condemning anyway for their way of thinking, but, it's just not what I would do.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Senator McCain has 22 years of military experience, Senator Webb has 4, 8 if you include his 4 years at the Naval Academy.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Why wouldn't you count Webb's time as Secretary of the Navy?

So all of you with this line of thinking research every bill that comes up huh? Or only the ones you consider important? All of them? How do you have so much time to do this? There are no issues then that you trust your elected officials on?

It really doesn't take long to read headlines and then the articles you are interested in. It doesn't take very long to do further research on legislation you want to read in more depth.

Oh, sorry. Sure, we can count that:

"He had served as an assistant secretary of defense under Reagan and was appointed secretary of the Navy in 1987. A year later, Webb resigned the post abruptly amid clashes with Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci."

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I am on the lines of thinking that kvmj expressed.

None that I can think of. The only person I trust that much is my DH.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Did you know that Webb graduated first in his class? McCain says that Eisenhower asked to speak to the cadet who graduated last in his class and ended up speaking to McCain. McCain now claims he was 5th. from the bottom.

McCain also downed 5 planes. The Forrestal incident was particelarly tragic.

Jim Webb "Women Can't Fight"

Va. Candidate Webb: 'Women Can't Fight'

He certainly had "ideas" for the military.

Exactly!!! But I've been criticized for blinding following even after I explained that I did read what McCain said about his reasons. For some that wasn't good enough. And yes, info is at our fingretips with the internet.

Wow you must have alot on your plate! You must have to research every single vote, bill and measure!