After what happened to Senator Obama when he made his "bitter Pennsylvanian's remark" it will be interesting to see if the VP's joke about incestuous West Virginians gets a mention in the news.

"... Then came the offensive punch line. Cheney explained that during the course of researching his family lineage for Lynne's memoir "Blue Skies, No Fences" last year, he learned there were Cheneys on both his father's and his mother's side of the family. There was a Richard Cheney on his mother's side, the vice president said.

"So I had Cheneys on both sides of the family and we don't even live in West Virginia," Cheney quipped. ..."

Dick Cheney's Incest Joke Irks West Virginian Lawmakers - The Sleuth

Why is this different?

It was at an event that is just one big roast, and it was a joke from the minute it came from his mouth. Of course it would have been much funnier had he said Arkansas. I also don't think incestuous is an accurate term for what he was describing. Not at all. Inter-marriages, yes, but sexual relations between a parent/child or siblings.... not implied here. In the worst possible scenario for his joke, you're talking about the marriage of second cousins, I'll bet that is actually legal in most states... and it is probably more common in others. There is a set of double-cousins on my DH's side of the family (orig. from NM). I have a set of them (they live in TX). I know yet a third couple - but they are FIRST cousins and are from AR. If that's common in WV, it's common. No big deal. And it was a joke at an event made for jokes. I think lightening up is a good idea, for those that feigned offense.

When Obama made his statement he was trying to wax philosophical and attributed their sincerely held beliefs to some sinister motive, rather than sincerity, and in doing so impugned some things very important to them. And he did it while trying to make himself look like he could "fix" the things they didn't think were wrong. It was insulting, or at the very least telling, his disregard for their belief systems and the implication that if their lives were easier under a presidency led by him that they wouldn't lean on their faith or possess firearms.

I think that's *exactly* what he was describing. Arkansas wouldn't have been funny, either. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world he could have said, but I don't think it was even mildly amusing, either.

Sinister?! That's you (and maybe others) reading something into it.

I think that's the interpretation of some. That's not how I took it at all. I believe he meant that when times are difficult, people lean (as opposed to cling) on the things that they've always known, the things that are rocks for them. "Cling" was a terrible word and I think it's clear, in his remarks since, that it's not what he meant.

Amazing, let's pretend for just a minute if Senator Obama or Senator Clinton had the poor taste to make such a "joke". Coverage would have been 24/7 for days. The double standard is just amazing. I shouldn't be surprised though as the same people who will give Cheney a pass on this also gave Bush a pass when he "joked" about the missing WMD during a similar DC "roast". Oh wait, they probably had their flag pins on so no big deal.

BTW I believe the definition of incest is much broader then between parent/child or siblings but maybe what OP posted is just a "southern" thing -- just joking.

Actually, had Obama or Clinton make that joke in a roast sort of a situation, it wouldn't have phased me a bit.

I don't think it was the WISEST joke Cheney could've cracked, but he's also not running for office.

There are some stereotypes about my state and we laugh about them and don't tend to take them personally. Redneck comes to mind. The truth of the matter is, there *are* plenty of rednecks around here.

The reason it's bigger news when Obama or Clinton make verbal mis-steps right now is pretty obvious: They're running for office and every word that comes from their mouths is a word that should be intended to sway people. The stakes are high, and if they use words that do the opposite and *offend* someone they were trying to *woo*, that's news.

Cheney is on his way out right now, so it's not news people really care about.

For what it's worth, this is what dictionary.com says about incest:
1. sexual intercourse between closely related persons.
2. the crime of sexual intercourse, cohabitation, or marriage between persons within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity wherein marriage is legally forbidden.

The inter-connectedness Cheney was describing in his family, from what I understood, was that there was a Cheney on his mother's side of the family some generations back. What it sounds like is that some female on his mom's side married a Cheney, not that Cheneys were marrying Cheneys.

When you're from a small town, it is extremely common to have people with relatives on either side of the family who happen to also be related to each other. Your pool of possibilities is somewhat limited and so that's pretty common. There is nothing incestuous about it. Two of my husband's brothers happened to marry two women who are cousins to one another. Their kids have Jones' on both sides of their family.

There was no incest implied in the relationship Cheney described, with someone on his mom's side having married a Cheney at some point in the family tree.

I would have taken the West Virginia reference as more a chiding about "small town" and the inter-connectedness that occurs (and truth be told, can seem a little hillbillyish on the face of it!).

EXCUSE ME? No, it wouldn't have been any funnier had he used "Arkansas". Do you know that is a typical stereotype of Arkansans? Having been born in Arkansas, I have to face some stupid joke about that whenever anyone asks where I'm from. It's offensive and degrading to insinuate that incest is the norm ANYWHERE.

Of course I have figured out the best response to that stupid assumption about Arkansans is to make the person feel like a fool for making the joke. I'm proud to be an Arkansan--and do not appreciate people who think that Arkansas is just some backwater, redneck, inbreeding state.

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West Virginians on both both sides of the political aisle took offense at what the VP said. I understand regional humor and laugh at the jokes made about Oregon's rusty, webfooted citizens although if the remarks are being made about us by Californians I do take offense. As in all things, humor is a personal matter and it appears some West Virginians considered it tasteless. In the big picture, it is a small matter and as you said he's not running for office but regardless such a remark by the VP IMO is in poor taste and a call for an an apology not unreasonable.

Edited to add that, if as you said, Senators Obama or Clinton had made such remarks at a "roast", I would have been very much offended for the citizens of WV but again, to each his/her own in the humor department.

You are assuming that I didn't grow up on Arkansas myself. Ironically, the only first cousins that I know who are married to one another ARE Arkansans and they crack jokes about the stereotype all the time. They're actually quite well-to-do and very nice people. One of them had a dad in the military and was actually raised overseas and they didn't grow up really knowing each other. It's a rather crazy story, and they themselves joke about the Arkansas thing. That's why I'd personally have found it to be funnier had he said Arkansas. I had absolutely no clue that stereotype existed about West Virginia. None. I do think "small town" when I think WV, but I don't think incest. I hope you don't either.

And again - incest is not what he implied. Marriages between relatives, yes, but not CLOSE relatives. Until his wife investigated his family tree going back many generations, they didn't even know that there had ever been a Cheney on his mom's side. The funny part is that they found he and Obama were 8th cousins!

Read the relationship Che

Incest is exactly what he implied.

I agree - it is a personal thing. I can laugh about stereotypes about my religious affiliation, my geographical heritage, and a number of things. All too often, there is a bit of truth to the stereotypes whether or not we like to admit it. We can get all worked up things or laugh them off.

While that article said that both sides of the aisle were angry, there were definitely more Democrats quoted than Republicans.

Personally, when I see those Press Club clips, things always just look a little too schmoozey to me. I don't know if the taxpayers pay for them or not, but the whole atmosphere just seems a bit too 'exclusive' and high-brow and one-uppy (on the part of the reporters who are invited to attend). I always think the self-effacing statements made by the politicians regardless of party are usually pretty funny, but something about the press/guests who get invited just leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I realize they spend their lives camped there in the White House press room and develop some camaraderie with one another and with the politicians, but for some reason, the schmoozy images I see make me think more of Hollywood than the serious business of reporting from the most critical office in the world.

Again, I disagree.

The media has tagged it an 'incest' comment.

I just see a 'cuzins marryin' cuzins' sort of a hillbilly implication, even though in HIS family, that's not even what apparently occurred. From what I understand, a relative from his dad's side married a relative from his mom's side several generations back.

Cousins marrying cousins isn't incest.

The thought of it rather does creep me out, though! lol

Actually, cousins marrying cousins is incest. First cousins marrying is always considered incest.

Not in my world. It's gross to me, and other than the couple I mentioned whom I don't know particularly WELL (they're friends of my friends who live in a different place) I don't know any first cousins who are married.

But I don't believe it is incest. Incest, from what I have always understood, is sexual contact between parents/children and siblings or grandparents/grandchildren. Any of those abuses or 'relationships' I believe qualify as incest.

With cousins, I'd consider it 'too close' and 'not advisable'... but I don't think it's considered incest and know that in many states it is illegal.

And Marilyn, I wanted to be forthcoming here and say that I am NOT an Arkansan. I grew up near the Arkansas border, however. I actually love Arkansas. You're fortunate to have been from there. We had a cousin with a houseboat on Lake of the Ozarks Our honeymoon was in Eureka Springs. I grew up fishing on Bullscholz (sp?) and riding the rides with Li'l Abner and Daisy Mae (May? It's been too long!) at Dogpatch USA in... was it Harrison? The Ozarks are beautiful.

Legally, marriage between first cousins is prohibited. It is incest. Whether your state is exception is dubious.

Yes, I am very fortunate and very proud of the state that I was born and raised in. I show my pride now--even though we no longer live in Arkansas! I show it right down to my Razorback tattoo.

My point is this--when these kind of remarks and jokes, coming from highly placed and public figures, are allowed to stand as "oh, he was just joking", it continues to propagate the idea that certain places are backwoods/rednecks/hillbilly--or whatever. And it's frustrating--just like it's frustrating when people assume because you have a Southern Accent you are an idiot/less educated.

It's just like here in Montana where the jokes are about the lonesome cowboys having relations with the sheep...

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I've always thought incest was sexual relations between "blood" relatives and is not limited to parents/grandparents.

Incest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isn't it interesting the different perceptions even among our small group.

ITA and was the point I so clumsily tried to make.

But the comparison was made to Obama's comment, and Obama's comment wasn't a bad joke gone awry.

I assume every state has its negative stereotype and I think people would do well to just laugh them off. New Yorkers are rude, Californians live in the land of nuts and flakes, Texans are too big for their britches, all Nebraskans pick corn...

You just have to be lighthearted, chuckle along, and let it roll off your back.

Hi fellow Arkansan. I was born in Fort Smith. So was my brother, and at least three of my cousins were born in Arkansas. And no, not one of us married each other. Yet!

[quote=wowitsdark;3001687]But the comparison was made to Obama's comment, and Obama's comment wasn't a bad joke gone awry. .../QUOTE]


The point of my OP was that in light of the blowback Senator Obama got over his bitter Pennsylvanian's remark my curiousity was piqued as to what reaction the VP's IMO equally offensive, if not more offensive, remark about West Virginians would generate from the news media. Since I've heard no further discussion about his remarks on the news this morning my assumption that there would be little or no attention paid was correct. As you said, he is not running for office but as Marilyn said, such offensive remarks made by a highly placed politician propogate assumptions about segments of our population which are not true or IMO particularly funny. But. as I've learned from this thread, senses of humor vary.

If Cheney were running for office you'd better believe it would be all over the news.

That's true. It's bad taste.

Gotta agree.

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Cheney is a heartbeat from the President. He should have more class and more dignity afforded to people who helped elect him into office. Just because he is a "short-timer" should not allow him to be excused for denigrating, hurtful and IGNORANT remarks. For such a seemingly educated man, he definitely should have KNOWN better and DONE better. But, I am not surprised by his audacity to think it was okay to say something that offended an entire state.

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If that offended the entire state of West Virginia, then the folks from West Virginia must be really thin-skinned because jokes about West Virginia have been going around for as long as I can remember. Heck, we have good friends from West Virginia who joke about West Virginia!!

Class and dignity from Cheney? Are you drinking?

Jay Leno last night said that Cheney had apologized to West Virginia. He said that what he said was so stupid, you would think he came from Kentucky.

Uh-oh.

I hope Kentucky doesn't boycott Leno now!

Yes, which is exactly why Obama's comments don't even warrant a comparison. This is NOT said in defense of Cheney. I'm glad he offered that apology. However, Obama was actually attempting to make a "sincere point" with his statement - IMHO this was much more damaging and offensive.


Agreed here, too. There are stereotypes about almost any state I can think of, and each one is less-than-desirable.

The same can be said about nationalities, which I'm sure we've all experienced.