I thought this was great. Found it at: Daily Kos: State of the Nation

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Before I got on tonight I was thinking "gee, I wonder if someone will bring up gay marriage?". Well, here it is.

I had no intention of getting into this. We all know how we feel, some agree, some disagree with gay marriage. I don't think that anyone who is against would have said a word. No need. I still do not want to debate the issue. But, this email that you posted brings up many valid issues that ppl have with gay marriage but they are twisted in such a way as to sound ridiculous. Fine. But, if a conservative had done something similar....all hell would have broken loose. You are making fun of other's beliefs and like I said, if the tables were turned, a conservative would probably be turned in for hate speach

Just to clarify. While I don't believe God intended us to marry the same sex, or have sexual relationships, I think it makes no difference at this point for there to be legal gay marriage.

Melissa

The list is obviously tongue-in-cheek, it's so ridiculous.

I have no problem with gay marriage. Just wait till they have to go through the court system for a divorce like heteros! That's when the "benefits" of a "legal" marriage really kick in

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Mary

Yes, I totally agree with you, Melissa. Marriage should be between a man and woman.

So, you wouldn't be opposed to a gay couple having a civil union or domestic partnership that acknowledged they were a couple? And afforded them the same rights as a hetero married couple? Is a hetero couple who do not have a minister performing their ceremony NOT married? This is not a religious question, this is a legal issue. Just because the idea of gay marriage offends your morals does not mean that 1) it's wrong, 2) it shouldn't be viewed as a legal issue, or that 3) religious beliefs should take precendence over legal matters.

One of the most inspiring stories that came out due to this new law in California is the lesbian couple who were 83 and 87 and had been together 50 years! 50 years! That's phenomenal--making any relationship last and work for 50 years should be recognized, be it a homosexual relationship or a heterosexual relationship.

The word MARRIAGE can be defined as follows:

5. any close or intimate association or union:
6. a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.
7. a blending or matching of different elements or components

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Marriage should be only between a man and a woman, of the same race and religion, too, because anything else would be unnatural.

While we're at it, I'd also like only pretty people to marry each other, and no wierdos, because we don't want those types having children . . . no people with physical or mental defects of any kind because, as the good Justice Holmes said, "Three generations of imbeciles are enough,” or in the case of people still walking around with defects of some kind today, one generation is enough. I'd prefer they marry in one of the Protestant churches, since those are kind of neutral churches, in June, the only proper month for weddings. And divorce would be against the law, because marriage -- well, that's sanctified, right?

Oh, I'm sure we can think of other proper requirements for marriage, can't we?

What the Gay Brain Looks Like - TIME

If you believe that being gay is a choice, please read this article.
I found it very interesting.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Just because California OK'd gay marriages doesn't make it right. What people do in private, though, is their own business. But I feel marriage is a right that belongs only to a man and a woman, not two men or two women.

On the OP's list, number 3, the one about someone marrying their dog - if I'm not mistaken, I think I read something about a man wanting to marry his dog a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it. So is that the next thing -- just because it's a person's 'right' to do what they want -- they can marry their dog??

OK...so, it's the term marriage you're opposed to or what?
Marriage is a RIGHT? Just like voting, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, owning guns, etc? Hmmmmm....so if it's a right, aren't gays/lesbian protected under the same Constitution and Bill of Rights as "straight" people?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Awesome -- it's the Rick Santorum theory!

If gays can marry, then next logical step is world destruction. Woo hoo!

You go to church, right? Remember Sodom and Gomorrah?

The strangest argument that I ever saw was given by a Sen. John Cornyn in 2004 to the Heritage Foundation. It was titled, "So Your Neighbor Marries a Box Turtle."

There are people out there who think they are Jesus. It's no wonder that someone might want to marry their dog. Whe anyone thinks that legalizing bestial marriages is next when a dumb animal cannot sign or legally enter a contract, is beyond the pale.

Goodness, Sen. Santorum posting on our little board here! That's amazing. Hi, Rick!

You know what I think God hates? Not gays, not gay marriage. I think God hates closed minded, petty people who think that someone else married in a loving relationship is going to somehow affect them.

If God really hates gay -- as your statement implies -- why not leave that to the gays to worry about?

You stay in your own little world and be happy and let all those gay people and us friends of gay people go straight to hell.

Move on, don't look back, leave us alone. You remember Lot's wife, right?

actually if you go back to the root meaning of the word it was a sewing term that was called marriaging which was to join two opposite pieces together.
the opposite term faggoting was to join two like pieces together thus the term that used to be used for homosexuals faggots.

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Always be a first rate version of your self instead of a second rate version of someone else.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds.

as with the majority of Biblical stories, there are many interpretations of why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah--the one you believe, may or may not be factual!

The Bible is a book--translated by man, written by man and published by man. There are several dozen "versions" of the Bible. The one you hold so dear and believe in could very well have been corrupted by a mere mortal man!

Now, would you please address my questions regarding marriage as a right?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

ROFLOL, good one.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

And simply b/c the religious right wants it outlawed doesn't make it right. These same people didn't want interracial marriage either.

And PUHLEESE. The dog analogy is so overdone and makes no sense at all. Last I looked, dogs aren't considered sentient beings. So what if some idiot wanted to marry his dog. are you comparing all gay people to said idiot?

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Here we go again! Of course, you're going to say that the Bible was written by men. If you don't believe the Bible is written by God (II Tim. 3:16) 'inspired of God', which means God-breathed, then there is no reasoning on your part to even believe that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed. So why argue your point if you don't even believe the Bible?

As for the nit-picking of the use of the word 'right', well, to me that is just something you're trying to use to make your argument work for you. Marriage of a man and woman is an institution blessed by God.

No where did I say that God hates gays. You read what you wanted it to read. As for letting the gays worry about it, ok. That's between God and the gay person.

"You stay in your own little world and be happy and let all those gay people and us friends of gay people go straight to hell. Move on, don't look back, leave us alone. You remember Lot's wife, right? (Not my words but quoted by someone on this thread). That is a scary thing to say -- let all those gay people and us friends of gay people go straight to hell. That is not a good mindset. It is scary. Sometimes I wonder if people even understand the seriousness of what they're actually saying. Yes, Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt because she did look back I would think because of the horribleness of what was happening during the destruction of Sodom and Gomarrah.

Squeak, I LOVE your root meaning definitions! That's about as definitive as I've ever seen! No one can argue with that one.

And the dog analogy was only mentioned because it was mentioned in the OP's first post!

California voters will have the last word in November, when they vote on a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as between one man and one woman. Right now, over 1 million people have signed petitions for the amendment to be on the November 2008 ballot.

Not surprised that you don't understand my meaning. I'm not remotely worried about going to hell.

I do think some others on this thread might want to pack some warm-weather clothes, though.

Where's the deer? It's a shame to waste this human-sized salt lick.

jaded you obviously have your mind made up because you cajole any opposing opinion!
so why bother to ask the question? unless you like to start an argument and show how you can stomp it down!

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Always be a first rate version of your self instead of a second rate version of someone else.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds.

Oh, I understand what you meant exactly. I'm glad you're not worried, though. Why the funny quote about the deer and human-size salt lick? The Bible says that's what Lot's wife turned in to. Now you're making fun of what's in the Bible, too?

I do not believe that the Bible is the infalliable word of God--simply because while it may have been inspired by God when first written, man has re-intrepeted passages and/or made mistakes in translation. Plus, there is historic evidence that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah existed--and with or without the Bible, there are still several different theories as to the hows and whys of their demise.

I am not nit-picking the use of the word right. You stated that you felt marriage was a right of a man and woman. I asked you to explain what you meant by right--you chose not to address that until now. And even now, you are becoming defensive and angry in your replies. I'm trying to sort out what exactly you have an issue with. Is it simply the usage of the word MARRIAGE in relations to homosexual unions? Would you be ok if it were labeled something else, but yet gave them the same legal rights and priviledges and protections as hetero married couples?

FWIW--there's also mention in the Bible of races not intermingling, what's your opinion on that?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

This doesn't make sense to me. I "cajole any opposing opinion"? And what question are you talking about? The one I asked mom2twins? I don't "stomp" her opinion down, b/c she's quite capable of defending herself, whether I agree w/ her or not. I do disagree w/ her and want her answer about whether or not she's comparing all gays to an idiot who wants to marry their dog, especially b/c SHE brought that up.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Wow, it's true.

You're funny.

I'm Catholic, but not a "good" Catholic because of my support for gay marriage. If you are going to abide by this law - A man must not have sexual relations with another man. (Leviticus 18:22) - Why would you not abide by these other laws (Do we pick and choose which laws we want to abide by?):

- Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material, Lev. 19:19
- A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, Deut. 22:5
- If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son, he can take him to the street before the elders and have him stoned to death, Deut. 21:18-21
- Do not eat any unclean animal, Deut. 14:7-8 (No pork, regardless if you are Christian or Jewish)
- Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it; neither eat any meat not fully cooked. Only when meat is cooked until it is white inside with no tinge of red or pink whatsoever insures that all blood had been removed, Deut. 12:23 (Well-done steaks for everyone!)
- Drunkenness of any sort is prohibited, Deut. 21:20
- Divorce can only be for the cause of premarital fornication by the bride, Deut. 24:1-4

At what point does someone just admit homosexuality is distasteful to them and not use Bible laws to back up their point of view...unless of course they abide by ALL the laws of the Bible.

Here's a site to see laws of the bible, in case you're interested.

Personally my belief is the only "Commandment" gays are breaking is Adultery (Having sexual relations before marriage). And, NO I do not think "Legal" marriage is going to change that. Thus, my less-than-good-Catholic status.

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Mary

There are plenty of gays that would like to stop breaking the laws against fornication, Mary, by getting married.

I think it's so sad that some people are so darn worried about other people's marriages.

I think you mean fornication.
Adultery is when a married person has relations outside the marriage.

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

"Rooting around in the linguistic past doesn't help either side in this debate. In fact, arguing from word origins is such a losing strategy that it even has a name, the etymological fallacy." Jan Freeman-Boston Globe.

And actually you are wrong:

from the same article by Jan Freeman:
"The French gave birth to it in the 14th century, borrowed from the classical Latin maritare -- "a verb used, the Oxford English Dictionary tantalizingly notes, 'of people and animals and in viticulture.' "

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Did I read wrong or did most people who do not believe in gay marriage give religious reasons and/or quote the bible? I am pro gay marriage and I actually think it's very simple to understand why Supreme Courts have upheld gay marriage in most states that had made it legal. There is the simple thing in our country called separation of church and state. While your reasons are your own personal beliefs, they have zero bearing on the law. According to the laws in our democracy, men, women, black white, rich poor, we all have the same basic rights. Why should committed gay couples not be allowed to marry and have the same benefits as we all have? It's not just a piece of paper. When you are married you get tax breaks, ability to share benefits (insurance and such), and more.

I would just like to hear some valid reasons that are legal and not personal biases or based on religion.

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I dream to escape!

So you are saying that at some point you would find it acceptable? When might that be and why?

Marilyn...I've read the studies, seen the pics of the brains. I don't necessarily believe it proves anything. However, I am not convinced that some are NOT born gay. But, I do believe it is just like any other sin, we have to make a choice. It may be something that some ppl are just going to deal with. You cannot say that our bodies were created for homosexual sex. They just weren't. Men and women were created the way they were for a reason. That being said...

I really think it makes no difference what conservatives say anymore. As much as I wish it weren't true, I think our country is going to get just what we've asked for.

For the record...IRL you would never know that I am "against' the gay lifestyle. I know that unless you are born again you have no reason to believe it immoral necessarily. There are ppl I care about that are gay, and I would never alienate them by being hateful or unloving.

And since when is it hateful to think something is morally wrong???

Melissa

FWIW--there's also mention in the Bible of races not intermingling, what's your opinion on that?

Marilynk,

What it actually says is we are not to be "unequally yoked". It is referring to believers not marrying non believers. That is the New Testament verse some use to say we shouldn't intermingle races. If you are referring to OT verses, I apologize. I don' think there are very many believers who would say that races shouldn't mix. If they do they are just plain old racist, and it has no Biblical foundation other than the fact that they use verses out of context.

Melissa

No, I don't think I will. I believe that the lifestyle is immoral. What I do think is that the church and it's followers have blown it. We do not live what we preach. The divorce rate in the church is equal, or nearly so, with that of the "world". We cannot expect to be any kind of example when our ppl are not living the way God calls us to. We have judged the world by Biblical standards and forgotten to uphold those standards ourselves. Biblical standards are for believers.

I respectfully disagree with you on many different aspects:
1) if you (the general you) accept that even some people are born homosexual, then why would anyone suggest that they should "make a choice"? I mean, if they are born that way, then that would be like saying a person born deaf can just "make a choice" to hear.
2) I find it very disconcerting that you are one person here but apparently another person IRL....I've never said anything here that I wouldn't have said IRL (yes, even the things that I've gone back and apologized for).
3) As to whole having to be saved to think homosexuality is immoral--please don't be condescending. I think that basing your acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexuality solely on Biblical verse is faulty logic. God did not write the Bible--Man did. While I believe it was inspired by God, I believe like so many things in this world have been tainted by man's hands.
4) as to using Bible versus out of context--again far too many verses are taken out of context. Verses are often twisted, taken out of context or skewed to bolster whatever point they are trying to make.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

While I may disagree with your position on things--I do agree with you on the above the rationale. And I respect you so much for having the courage to say such things!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I respectfully disagree with you on many different aspects:
1) if you (the general you) accept that even some people are born homosexual, then why would anyone suggest that they should "make a choice"? I mean, if they are born that way, then that would be like saying a person born deaf can just "make a choice" to hear.

This is a dangerous argument that you make, imo. There are many ways that ppl will claim to born. deaf and gay are not the same, obviously. I also didn't say I accept, I just will not offhandedly reject it. Some are born with the predisposition to drinking/drugs. Should they just go ahead and do those things even though they are harmful? I know you don't believe homosexuality is harmful, but I do. We will not agree on this point.


2) I find it very disconcerting that you are one person here but apparently another person IRL....I've never said anything here that I wouldn't have said IRL (yes, even the things that I've gone back and apologized for).

I only meant that I don't go around debating this issue, not that I was one way here, and another irl. So you can feel free to be undisconcerted.


3) As to whole having to be saved to think homosexuality is immoral--please don't be condescending. I think that basing your acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexuality solely on Biblical verse is faulty logic. God did not write the Bible--Man did. While I believe it was inspired by God, I believe like so many things in this world have been tainted by man's hands.

I didn't mean that you had to be "saved" to believe homosexuality is immoral. I meant that it is unfair of believers to hold unbelievers to a Biblical standard that we hold. So, if that is the reason one feels it is wrong, fine, but don't expect others to abide by that belief. I totally disagree with your opinion about the Bible. I believe there is strong historical evidence that the Bible is true. We will have to agree to disagree.

4) as to using Bible versus out of context--again far too many verses are taken out of context. Verses are often twisted, taken out of context or skewed to bolster whatever point they are trying to make

I absolutely agree with this.

Melissa

Yes, we'll have to disagree on some of the points. I do completely understand what you're saying about IRL vs. here on the boards. That makes complete sense.

I don't disbelieve that the Bible is true. I just believe that it's not infalliable simply because man has had hand in it with interpretation, revisions, and editing.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

and just how does this verbal rhetoric make my definition wrong?
I'm sorry you think I'm wrong I did not pose a side I just corrected your definition of the word!
the word used before the word marriage was the greek word khath-oon-naw which means wedding and comes from two words khaw-than meaning female and khaw-thawn meaning male! my best friend has a phd in both hebrew and greek reads and writes the languages and this is the original meaning! sorry to rock you boat but YOU are wrong!

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Always be a first rate version of your self instead of a second rate version of someone else.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds.

Thank you, but I think I will believe what I can actually read and see for myself, as opposed to your alleged "friend" w/ the PhD.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I didn't bring that up, Jaded, and you know I didn't. YOU brought it up first when you made your first post -- it was #3 !!! And heck, no, I don't compare gays to an idiot who'd want to marry their dog (LOL!) (Wonder who would wear the white veil in that one -- the man or the dog?)

The post I made (which was not written by me) was tongue in cheek. I didn't realize that yours was also. My fault.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

If you want a nonBiblical idea how about human anatomy? Men and women are made complementary and made to procreate. Men and men together can't do that physically, the same with woman/woman. That has nothing to do with religious beliefs - just a simple look at anatomy ought to give us some clues!! If men/men and women/women are supposed to be a couple then I think men and women would have the necessary "parts" to procreate. It's just not that way.

So marriage is solely for procreation?

In today's world, I would think that people should be more for things that bring love and peace to others. I have never been able to figure out why some people would want to stop someone from loving another human being and wanting to be legally responsible for them. What does the fact that two people, two souls want to be together have to do with me except make the world a better place. Years ago, the bible was used to say that interracial marraige was against His word, the bible was used to say that people could have slaves. That black people were not real people with real rights. Of course, we now know that it is in the interpretation of the Bible and I believe that the claim that God doesn't like gay union will join those other beliefs because it is man's interpretation.

Why should I tell another person they cannot love someone else and be with them with the same rights I have? Especially when they promise to love, honor and cherish that person as long as they both shall live? It is another case of being in someone's business where I don't belong and that business does not harm me at all. I think I read that in a book somewhere....something about treating others like I would like to be treated. I wish those who got married in the last day or so happiness. I love being married and since I believe that God wants us to have a partner in life if we can and if someone finds someone else to be happy with, I am sure that He is happy and disregards what "parts" they have.

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GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Sex is not just about procreation! And if that's all a person is getting out of sex then they are SOOOOo missing out on some true enjoyment!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

This needed to be repeated!! BRAVO!!! And, like MarilynK said, you have my respect for saying these things. I know this is not a thread on "religion" exactly, I would like to say that this very thing is what turns many off to religion. People need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Ok, here is my take on it all.....I am not sure where I stand on gay marriage. I know the gay lifestyle is not for me,but, neither is eating raw oysters, which some people really enjoy. To each their own. After reading some of the opinions in this thread, I am leaning towards "sure, why not???" If 2 same sex people want to marry and be held to the same legal responsibilities as a heterosexual couple, I think I'm good with that. I don't approve of "special rights" for gay couples, tho.

As for the Bible, if God loves ALL People, then that includes gay people, so how can any one say otherwise??? I have a BFF who is the most dear person in the world. She is very much live and let live, but, does not "approve" of gay people. That baffles me since she goes to church and believes that God loves everyone. How can anyone pick and choose then???

I don't think being attracted to the same sex is a choice, just like being attracted to the opposite sex is not a choice. For those of you heterosexuals, try seeing the same sex in a sexual way.......might skeeve some of you out, huh??? Well, that is how I think gay people feel when they "try" to fit in to "normal" society and be attracted to the opposite sex. I believe it is how their brain is programmed.

good discussion.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

What about a man who is paralyzed from the waist down, and can't "procreate". Should he not be able to marry??? There is a whole lot more to marriage then procreating.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I've never understood this. People who say that gay people should choose to be straight. What age were you when you chose to be straight?

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

For all of you who don't approve, how is gay marriage hurting you? Does this change your life? Does it keep you from doing what you want to do? What possible threat does this pose to you?

None. That's why the deafening silence, I expect. At its core, opposition to gay marriage is rooted in ignorance and/or hatred as far as I can tell. I've never heard a reason for opposing it that wasn't rooted in one or the other.