Just thought this discussion was going well and wanted to answer some posts...

So marriage is solely for procreation? by truble..

Of course not. Sex was intended for procreation though. I myself find it quite enjoyable and I haven't precreated for years. And there are couples who cannot conceive. But like the other poster said, you can't deny our bodies were made to compliment one another. You can say that intercourse isn't the only way to have "sex", but really that is how we are created. For or against gay relationships doesn't change that fact.

As for the Bible, if God loves ALL People, then that includes gay people, so how can any one say otherwise??? by allinaugust

God absolutely does love ALL people. Of course He does. But loving someone does not necessarily mean that whatever they do is ok. In fact, sometimes loving someone means doing or saying the hard thing.

I've never understood this. People who say that gay people should choose to be straight. What age were you when you chose to be straight? by jaded

I make choices between right and wrong all the time, I bet you do too. So if you follow the logic of, I do what I feel, there are many many things that ppl would do that would send our society on a fast downward spiral. I already think we have that to some exent anyway.

For all of you who don't approve, how is gay marriage hurting you? Does this change your life? Does it keep you from doing what you want to do? What possible threat does this pose to you? by wildwood

Again, there are MANY things that ppl do in society that don't "hurt" me personally, or change my particular circumstances or any of the other things you listed. But, just because that is the case, doesn't make those things ok.

None. That's why the deafening silence, I expect. At its core, opposition to gay marriage is rooted in ignorance and/or hatred as far as I can tell. I've never heard a reason for opposing it that wasn't rooted in one or the other. by truble

Wow, the "deafening silence" was due to me not being able to get to the puter, plus the thread was closed after you posted. You are absolutely one hundred percent wrong in your accusation of hatred and ignorance. In fact, that comment was pretty ignorant and hateful. Your personal lack of understanding of a particular view does not make it wrong or untrue. And I am very aware that could be said of my opinion of gay marriage. However, it's not that I haven't looked at all aspects. It will not matter what studies, or possible problems with gay marriage that could be presented here were brought up. They would be dismissed as being from the wrong source, so I won't even go there. I will just say that I am neither ignorant, nor hateful.

Melissa

Without being graphic, it's clear that homosexual couples can have intercourse and very satisfying sex lives, so that part about the pieces fitting together is just foolishness IMO.

Yes. And for some people, the hard thing is "there's nothing morally wrong with being gay."

Not what she asked you. Can you answer her direct question -- when did you choose to be straight?

And it doesn't make them not ok, either.

No, I'm not. I said, "as far as I can tell." And, as far as I can tell, I'm one hundred percent right.

Just wondering ...Do people that approve of gay "marriages" also approve of other types of "marriages"? Such as, The FLDS in Texas, Bigamy. etc. (As long as the "marriage" is not forced).

Please, do not use the lame excuse that I am comparing apples to oranges. There is a connection for this line of questioning.

Make the connection, then maybe we'll answer. Because right now, it IS apples to oranges.

It is about your right to chose the way you want to live your life (marriage, lifestyle).

Being gay is not a choice, so that's not a connection.

If being gay is so "against god" then please explain the reason so many animals practice homosexuality. For those who believe that your god is against it, why would he/she allow it in animals?

I still haven't heard anyone here tell me what age they CHOSE to be straight.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Sexuality is not something one chooses. I think that God loves gays, otherwise, why would he make them in the first place?

We do have polygamists in this country. We have whole towns of polygamists. We have so many that law enforcement is overwhelmed.

Sexuality is not a choice. Polygamy has nothing to do with sexuality.

I'm confused here. What does God have to do with it anyway? I have no idea why religion is even coming into play in this conversation -- or what "your" religion defines as a marrige. Last time I checked (which with just over 6 months ago) if you want to get married in this country, you go to the courthouse with your ID and birth cirtificate, prove that you are a citizen and an adult, and after you pay them a fee, they issue you a licence. Having that license only provides you with a series of rights above and beyond what you already have as a citizen....such as recognizing you are part of a couple that is entitled to enter into other legal obligations/benefits.

At no time did the state of Illinois tell me that I was obligated to procreate or any other biblical mumbo-jumbo you want to try and throw at me (and yes, I used mumbo-jumbo just to get you fired up).

To quote the other thread:
Marriage of a man and woman is an institution blessed by God.

Well, God wasn't at my wedding in November....and he didn't send me anything off my registry either.

The State of Illinois is who "blessed" my institution of marriage. And they gave me the piece of paper to prove it. I don't see why I am above any other citizen, of age and consent....and you shouldn't either.

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

I don't approve any forced marriges - arranged, underage, or otherwise. I believe that you should legal only be able to have one marriage license at a time -- which is the current law in all 50 states. I believe that you should be the legal age of consent (also dictated at the state level) to enter into the contract of marriage.

Now, what is your point? I'm curious to see how you are going to relate two consenting adults, entering into a legally licensed agreement with the state to the FLDS. This should be interesting....

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I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

I quote you because I also want to know the answer to this question

I have a BIL that is gay. At age 5 he would dress in his moms clothes and shoes and wanted to be called Samantha. At age 12 he still liked womens clothes (he had abandoned Samantha) and started to realize he thought boys were cuter then girls. At age 12 he "choose" to be straight. He dated girls and it felt wrong. Kissing a girl was utterly disgusting to him. At age 19 he came out of the closet. He is one of the most loving men I have ever met.

He has been gay bashed (beaten up) more then once, gets stared at when he goes places, people have actually told him he was not allowed to hang out with their kids (in high school). Why would anyone choose to live this life? He did not choose to be gay any more then I choose to be straight.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

Some people might be "born" that way but others chose it.

Please give me an example of someone that "choose" to be gay. I am having a hard time understanding your statement.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

All over the world thier are countries that allow gay marriages, men to have more than one wife, etc..
If legally people want gays to be able to marry how can you justify not allowing other forms of marriage to become legal? I am only talking about consenting adults.
So, in other words "marriage" can only be between 2 people? WHY?

Someone marries straight the first time, then gets a divorce, ends up in a same-sex union.
My friend, said she choses right now to be with a same-sex partner..but considers herself bisexual.
Right now she "choses" to be with this person.

I don't believe that anyone in the world chooses to be gay. I think there are some who experiment (like your BIL dating girls) but, that's the extent. Perhaps she means people who deny their sexuality altogether like Catholic men who join the priesthood.

Or why not siblings? If a couple of 70 year old brothers want to get married to each other who are we to judge? After all, like the whole 'multiple partners' thing, it happens in the animal kingdom, so it's all good, right?

Sounds like Gender Identity Disorder. There are studies saying this starts at a very young age and if picked up on early enough and with proper therapy can be helped to be the sex they were born to me. It kind of makes sense when you think about it. And this isn't talking about those rare cases where they really are born into the wrong body, so to speak.

Now that was very insulting to Catholics!!!

I feel that if you legalize any type of marriage other than man/woman you would then have to legalize any type of union between consenting adults. Cousins, siblings, parent/child over 18, polygamy, etc... Is that really where society wants to go? And while some of those examples seem just plain ridiculous so did gay marriage years ago....Be careful what you wish for!
Back to basic biology again-two men can't procreate, two women can't either. Seems pretty basic. Yes, there are all kinds of ways to have sex but that doesn't mean it was created to be that way.
And most of us man/woman supporters are not ignorant, etc...

He is very happy being a man now. He does dress in drag a few times a year, but does not want to be a woman.

My MIL is in this kind of situation. Her first marriage was to a man (FIL) and she is now with a woman. /she has been with this woman for 19 years and is still very happy. I do not believe she chose to be gay, I think she was open to happiness and finally found it in another woman. I believe you friend also "choses" to be happy. Man or woman should not matter.


I am very curious to see what the gay divorce rate will end up being. I wonder if it will be less then straight.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

You are confusing bisexual with homosexual. Bisexuals are just fine having sex with either gender, they don't have a preference. Homosexuals prefer the same gender.

Maybe it's easier for your friend to admit to be bisexual than being a lesbian. Maybe the entire time she was married to a man, she was a lesbian and has finally decided to be herself.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

You haven't lived until you've shared a deep passionate kiss with another woman!

As to your examples--in some states cousins can marry.
Incestuous relationships that result in children (procreation) leads to birth defects and genetic anomolies (Why many many years ago the royal family males were all Hemophiliacs).

Quite frankly, I don't give a rip is a man has 16 wives--as long as they were all of legal age and not forced into the marriage (reverse is true if a woman could stand 16 husbands).

Marriages that involve children are wrong. A child before the age of 16 or so is usually unable to decide what they want to be when they grow up--much less make a decision like who to marry.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Your statement assumes the only marriages are heterosexual marriages and therefore it's a fairly biased way to look at things.

What about GAY siblings of consensual age. Do you think there is anything sick and wrong about two such people marrying?

What an ignorant comment!

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Mary

Just because you have no idea why religion is coming in to play, does not necessarily make it wrong. Even without the religious slant, the fact is that marriage has always been between a man and a woman. You can't change that fact. So, whether it's religious reasons or not, there are some that will not agree with it. You can scream that you think there is nothing wrong with it until you are blue in the face, but I dont' think you will change the way people feel that way. It always takes time for ppl to accept change, and ppl being angry won't hurry that process along.

Of course the state didn't tell you you had to have children. God didn't tell me I had to either...what does that have to do with anything? The point was made that a man/man couple can't. That's all. Not that you HAD to if you were married.

Melissa

I was responding to a post about cousins being able to marry NOW in some states and that historically speak incestuous marriages (and since the only marriage that were legal until recent history were hetero) resulted in defects/deformities in the offspring.

Incest is incest whether it be siblings, or parent(grandparent)/child. Of course, there were incestuous relationships in the Bible so I guess that makes it ok (read further into the story of Soddom and Gomorrah)

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I am in awe of your ability to deceive yourself.

Bisexuals actually do have a preference. Swedes did brain scans and proved they have an actual preference for one sex over the other.

I am in awe of your ability to deceive yourself.

I'm sorry that you're insulted by facts. And, I don't think you speak for most Catholics.

The Catholic church used to sanction gay marriages.

It's a problem, isn't it?

I know of two couples, in which both spouses were gay, that were married in the Cathedral of the Sacred Heart here in Richmond. The bachelor and bachelorette parties took place at some of the local gay bars. I guess they weren't good Catholics, either.

Until the scientific communities ...medical, biological, psychological fields, etc agree than I still think some people may be born gay others may choose to be gay.
One study does not mean a fact.

Naturally, you should think whatever you like, whatever evidence may exist to the contrary.

We are approaching just about the same area of acceptance/non-acceptance of so-called miscegenation, or inter-racial, marriage was just a few decades ago. Like it or not, it is here and legal and way beyond time. I have been married to my husband for 28 years. Luckily I grew up in California where people generally accept people as people, looking beyond race, religion or gender identity. My DH on the other hand grew up in Mississippi---a completely different atmosphere---I would say a 180degree opposite. For all but 4 years of our marriage we have resided in California--with NEVER a problem or impolite comment directed at us. However, when we lived in Michigan for 4years, we experienced constant, overt, rude and demeaning experiences with those, so-called, wonderful "mid-western" values we are always hearing about. The minute we had our first child we left that area of the country and returned to California so our children would never have to be faced with that type of ignorant, hateful behavior of people. I have two wonderful children who have grown up without facing any such incidents. When we go to Mississippi, we still get stares and whispers behind our backs. Ignorance is hard to redirect, but it will happen. Same situation with gay couples and gay marriages. It is hear, it is not going away and people will have to let go of their ignorance and biases and allow these couples to freedoms and rights that we as heteros take for granted. I have not exactly "walked a mile in the shoes" of gay couples, but I know what they have faced, continue to face, and will fight through to be able to experience the "forbidden" relationships they crave in their lives.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Ok, what I gather is that most only believe gays should be allowed to be "married" only because they are "born" gay.
What if years to come studies prove that people that are into "marrying 2 or more people" are just "born" that way? Will that make it right?

so I'm assuming my question can't be answered. Not surprised.


This is such an annoying tactic from opponents of gay marriage. "well, if THEY get married, then next will be siblings, then animals and humans, then..."

INCEST HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH GAY MARRIAGE. NOTHING.

When you can't come up w/ a good reason, stop trying to change the subject to incest, bestiality, men w/ 32 wives, child abuse, etc. Jesus christ. That is so annoying. DEBATE THE SUBJECT.

So? What kind of reason is that to continue something? Before 1959, marriage was "always" between a couple of the same color. But guess what? That too changed. Before 1865, slavery was accepted, but guess what? That too changed.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I am not the one that you are quoting..but I would like to answer anyway.
It is somewhat a tactic..but not the way you word it.

The tactic is to show that if you accept "gay marriage" how can you not accept other forms of "marriage".
If you truly believe in equal rights (concerning marriage) that means equal rights for other forms of consenting adults (not animals, kids, but adults)
WHY support only gay marriage?

I do not believe someone chooses to be gay any more then someone chooses to be handicap.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

Why is it such a BAD thing to choose to be gay?

I DO feel this is ok. As long as they are consenting adults. If a man wants to have 30 wives let him, as long as he can provide for his family. If a woman wants to have 30 husbands let her, as long as she (and they) can handle it.

No, I do not feel gays should get married because they are born gay, they should be able to marry the person they are in love with.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

And since you support heterosexual marriage, why not support man-dog or woman-cat marriage? As long as the animal is of the opposite sex as the human, of course.

It's not a bad thing, anymore than a unicorn is a bad thing. They're just both based in the same reality.

I never said anything about supporting animal realionships..maybe someone else but not me. I have said consenting adults.

Oh, but once you're willing to support consenting adults, it's just the logical next step, isn't it, just like gay marriage leads to polygamy, right? Give in once -- well, it's just a slippery slope straight to hell.

I asked BIL this very question. His response, "Why would I choose to live a life of discrimination? This is how I was born. Saying I chose this is like saying a handicap person chooses not to be able to walk." I will never forget the passion in his tone as he said this. It is offensive to me because I know how offensive it is to him.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

Wow, this went downhill fast. Why? Because not everyone agrees with those for gay marriage? Just because you don't agree with someone's reasons for feeling a certain way, does not make the other person wrong. And just because you think something, doesn't make it true. And it doesn't matter how many ppl agree with you, you could still be wrong.

and yes, I realize it goes both ways....

Melissa

Young men, without an hormonal outlet, have a tendency to become violent. (we have concerns about China in that respect)

I would imagine that there have been times in our past and it may occur again in our future, that plural marriage was necessary in order to sustain the population. It has traditionally been men that go to war.

Wait... WHAT? In what universe is marring animals the next logical step after gay marriage? Did I miss something?

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

No gay marriage doesn't lead to the other stuff.
But if you believe people have the right to marry who they "love" than you can not discrimate against other forms of marriage.

Well said.

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Calling a illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist."

Your logic is just a beautiful thing to watch.

But good for you for taking a stand against people who love each other getting married.