From Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/16/b...n_n_113199.html

Because the only rights a woman needs is the right to be barefoot.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Why am I not even the teensiest bit surprised?......

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I'm not surprised, but I am SHOCKED this isn't garnering more attention on the news. To try and make it so that there HAVE to be people who refuse to provide birth control? WHAT THE HELL is this brain challenged admin thinking? They complain about welfare now, are they TRYING to up the number of kids and other women who get on it? Are they trying to up the number of abortions??!!!

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Does anyone know if this has to pass the house first?

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

does anyone know where I can read about this other than on Nancy Pelosi's sight??? I googled the HHS website and couldn't find anything.

thanks.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Clinton vows to fight insulting abortion plan | Reuters

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/op...ml?ref=opinion

ABC News: Birth Control Battle: Redefining Abortion?

Family Planning: Striking Plan B

Family planning groups object to abortion plan | Industries | Health & Drugs | Reuters

White House proposal gives health care workers choice in contraception, abortion treatment - ABC4.com

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Yes, I'm quite familiar with Google, but, I am looking for the actual wording of the bill or whatever is being threatened. I did, however find this little snippet Iowa Independent I did not dig into it, but, I thought Obama was pro choice? Here is saying he is not against the state denying women a late term abortion. Do I have that right?

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'm not certain, but I think this is an internal proposal and not up for law. In other words, this may be a proposal that Bush wants to implement for the Department of Health and Human Services. Because it is an independent agency of the executive branch, I think their policies are implemented internally and not voted on in the House & Senate.

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

AWESOME!!!!!! I hope it passes!!! IUD's and the pill are both abortifacients. Many people on the pill have concevied and wil never even know it. No need to flame me. I have a right ot my opinion.

I'm not a woman. My wife and kids may call me numerous things but I'm not a woman. I understand why women fight for this issue. I happen to believe that life, whole, meaningful, protected, sacred -- begins at conception. There is just no other, IMHO, reasonable place to draw the line, therefore anything that protects said life is a good thing. The line between person hood and non-person hood must be drawn somewhere. Again, I understand the differences of opinion regarding this matter, it just happens to be one I care about deeply. If we as a society, fail to protect those most unable to protect themselves, we have no right to call our society -- civilization. I understand the difference of opinion when it comes to believing when a life is a life. I happen to draw the line at the only clearly definable boundary, others are free to choose a different point.

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After all these years, I see that I was mistaken about Eve in the beginning; it is better to live outside the Garden with her than inside it without her.

Mark Twain

It isn't a question of opinion. And, your opinion is based on facts of how some forms of birth control work and your belief once an egg is fertilized, the mother no longer has a say in the outcome.

The question is a policy of potentially denying access to basic healthcare based on beliefs or opinion of what control a woman has over her body that are not shared by all, much less a majority.

I love you Greg!!! Well stated!!!
Nightowlrn, yes that is correct about fertilization!!!
I don't think it is denying basic healthcare. Birth control and everything else along that line are not basic humnar rights to me.

Perhaps you want to read Griswold v. Connecticut and then get back to us on that ....

I want to be sure I have this correctly....you feel that birth control is a form of abortion, as in it prevents a embryo/fetus from developing??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I think I can speak here - not all birth control stops the egg from fertilizing. What it does then is it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall.

Yep, that's correct.

Ok, can you please clarify for me. Do you think ALL types of birth control stop a potential life, and therefore, you liken them to abortion??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I find it appalling that someone else thinks they have ANY say in what a woman does with her own body. I am so sick of hearing about how wrong abortion is and now to try to deny birth control based on religious beliefs. CRAZY. Not all people have the same religious beliefs so how in the world is it ok to push your beliefs on someone else. As a Catholic I am embarrased about this. I feel it's a woman's choice. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I would NEVER tell someone else NOT to or make them feel bad about it. EVER that is a persons OWN decision. And don't even get me started about the birth control. Who in the world do you expect to raise and financially support all the unwanted babies who could come from that. I am proud to admit that I use birth control. I am being responsible and only having the children that we can afford to raise and take care of. I am in charge of my body and NO ONE needs to tell me what to do in that respect.

Jen

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Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!

A lot of people do not have any idea of how the pill and other birth control methods actually work. No surprise most do not understand how other medicines works either. (blood pressure, etc)
It is best to do your own research and not just follow blindly.

Here is a link to a well known book
Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions? Part 1

I don't know you....but I think I love you!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Here is something I found when I googled "how does the birth control pill work" :


How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?

Question: How Does the Birth Control Pill Work?
Answer: Birth control pills, or oral contraceptives, contain hormones that suppress ovulation. During ovulation an egg is released from the ovaries, without ovulation there is no egg to be fertilized and pregnancy cannot occur. There are 2 types of birth control pills -- the combined pill and the Minipill. The combined pill contains both estrogen and progestin, while the Minipill contains only progestin.
The progestin in the Minipill may prevent ovulation; however it may not do this reliably each month. The Minipill works further by thickening the mucous around the cervix and preventing sperm from entering the uterus. The lining of the uterus is also affected in a way that prevents fertilized eggs from implanting into the wall of the uterus. The Minipill is taken every day. You may not have a period while taking the Minipill, if you do have periods that means you are still ovulating and your risk for pregnancy occuring is greater.
Combination birth control pills come in either 21 or 28-day packs. You take one pill each day at the same time for 21 days. If you have a 21-day pack, you stop taking birth control pills for 7 days at the end of the pack. If you are taking a 28-day pack, you continue taking pills every day, the last 7 non-hormonal pills serve as a reminder to help you remember to take your pill at the same time every day. Your period will occur during the week you take the 7 reminder pills.









I am confused on how a woman can get pregnant while properly taking the pill??? Key word here, PROPERLY.




This is where I disagree with the Republican platform. I am Pro Choice. My body, my choice.



Kathy, do you consider a condom a type of abortion as well???

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Back off, I love her more!

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

It's always funny how the people who oppose contraception, abortion, or even sex ed are the FIRST people to jump on the "I'm sick of people being on welfare" bandwagon.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Why are you linking that to me?

Can you explain this to me please. also, where do you get this information? thank you.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

How about this = I personally wouldn't beat my child but I would never tell someone else not to..... You either think abortion is taking a human life or you don't. What about the right of the female fetus? Isn't her mother giving her a death sentence?
So do you think all physicians should perform abortions? Does your state have a seatbelt law? Do you disobey it because they are telling you what to do? What limits do you have about someone else thinking they have any say in what a woman does with her body-if your friend was a cutter is that ok? Would you step in or just ignore it because it's her decision?
Some birth control methods allow for the fertilation of an egg but make a hostile enviroment so it cannot implant and continue to grow. Not all forms of birth control do that. The pill and the IUD do. Foam, diaphrams, condoms, etc.. don't.
That Catholic church is right on and as always is put down by people who don't understand it. People/churches who consistently stand up for what is right get persecuted.
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. Abortion is evil.

This might explain it.....the same medical information can be found other places.
Life Issues Institute - Contraceptive Pill

"So the widely used contraceptive pills have three functions, any one of which is said to “prevent” pregnancy. Only two of the functions, however, actually do prevent pregnancy: (1) the barrier mechanism of the mucous plug at the cervix, (2) the suppression of ovulation. The third function, however, does not really prevent pregnancy, but rather produces a micro-abortion at one week of life.

The original contraceptive pills, 30 years ago, contained a high dose of the hormone estrogen. Because of this, almost 100% of their effect was to suppress ovulation. But there were side effects from this high estrogen content, and that was primarily the substantial risk of blood clots. If these broke loose and went to the heart, lung or brain, they were very dangerous, and sometimes fatal, even for young women.

During the years since that time, the drug companies have progressively reduced the amount of estrogen in the pill so that now, depending on the pill, it is only 1/20th, or even 1/30th as much as it was when the pill was first introduced. With this reduction in estrogen, there has been a drop in the complication of blood clots, but, with the reduced estrogen, there has been an increase in what we call “breakthrough ovulation.” The estrogen level is so low that it doesn’t suppress ovulation all of the time anymore, and sometimes there is what we call a breakthrough ovulation—ovulation which breaks through the effect of the drug and is simply a plain old ovulation. It just happens. Fertilization, then, can occur. But if fertilization occurs, implantation within the nutrient lining of the womb is prevented by another action of the same pill. That action is a hardening of the lining of the womb. What occurs, then, is an induced micro-abortion at one week of life.

How frequent is breakthrough ovulation in a woman taking a low-estrogen contraceptive pill? Well, let’s take a high estimate—20%. Probably lower than that. How frequently does pregnancy occur when there is an egg or an ovum waiting? Probably not much more than two or three times out of the twenty.

So if we use a high figure, a 20% breakthrough ovulation, that would mean a two or three percent fertilization rate. But, as a matter of fact, pregnancy occurs only about 1% or less of the time, so, in the other 1 or 2%, fertilization does occur, implantation cannot occur, and the little embryonic baby dies.

The bottom line, then, for the commonly used contraceptive pill is this: In 97 or 98% of the time, the effect is one of preventing pregnancy. But, in perhaps two or more percent of the time, the effect is abortifacient. There is no way in the normal clinical practice of obstetrics of knowing which is happening, or when."

Can you (or anyone else) find which pill does this?? What I have read about the pill is not the case you are mentioning. I am not referring to the "morning after" pill. I am just referring to the BC pill that you take every day.


What is not to understand?? The Catholic church does not believe in giving a woman the right to make choices about her own body. As a woman, you should be appalled by this. Are they telling men what to do with THEIR bodies? What is there stand on circumcision?? Did they dictate that as well???

NO, I don't agree with any church or anyone/thing else telling me what to do with my body. I respect your passion for your religion and am thankful I have the right to make choices for myself.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Thank you. That is something I can live with. Isn't the whole idea of taking the pill to prevent pregnancy??? This just seems to accomplish it in a different way, and if a woman is OK with that, that is her choice and her business.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Not trying to argue. Just pointing out..that SOME of us believe that life begins at conception. That the rights of the unborn person are equal to your rights.

I do hope that all the information on the birth control methods are given to a person at the doctor or clinic. Then that person can make an informed decision.
But most people do not read most of what is given to them, whether it is medical, business (mortages, credit cards forms, etc).

1) child abuse is illegal in all states that I know of.
2) I do not think all Drs. should perform abortions. That is something the Dr. has to determine on their own.
3) your example of a "cutter"--People who self injury generally are mentally ill to some extent. They actually don't have much control over it. Of course, if I knew a friend was ill, I would step in and offer to help her in getting the assistance she needed. HELP--not force her to do anything. I could never see forcing a woman to carry and birth a baby because of my own personal beliefs in when life begins.


And let me say this---if you think abortion is evil and will be the downfall of humankind as we know it; I pity you because you haven't a clue what true evil is! I don't think anyone here is persecuting you for standing up for what you believe. We're more put off by your attitude and demeanor in presenting your beliefs/thoughts. Militant comes to mind when reflecting on some of your postings. Frankly, I don't know who's right/wrong in this debate. I guess if the pro-choice people are wrong then we will find out on judgment day, now won't we?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Actually I have been persecuted many times for what I believe in. Not under penalty of death or anything serious just vicious words and hate speech and stares at work from the "liberals". lol I do know that true evil is very insidious and in that respect most people dont' even recognize it. That is why many people justify abortion, they don't recognize the evil of it.

For question #1-I think you missed my point but that's ok. #3 I know that cutting is a mental health issue but if that's how they deal with stress who are you to judge? If they want to hurt THEIR own body then can't they do that?? At least they aren't taking a life. Just an example of how things can be skewed and why I don't buy into the "you can't tell someone what they can and can't do with their bodies" rational for abortion.

*sigh*
Kathy--has it ever occurred to you that you are persecuted not for what you believe, but for how you behave/act in regards to those beliefs, or how you express those beliefs? Remember the old adage you catch more flies w/ honey than w/ vinegar? I'm just wondering.

Your example of cutting, dealing w/ stress, not judging....Wow! How you came up with that, is beyond me.
A person with mental illness is not generally in control of their thoughts/behaviours (especially in the example you use)--of course a kind and caring person would step in and say "hey, looks like you have a problem. You want some help?" Still you can't force them to stop--because that's how things are...unless they are juveniles. But, keep in mind, you can force a person who is mentally ill (extreme circumstances) or mentally incompetent into a controlled situation. These people DO NOT have control of their own brains or bodies! So, to compare a mentally ill person to a woman who is pregnant is comparing apples to oranges.

Oh, and I understood your example in #1 PERFECTLY--you were attempting to compare an action (child abuse) that is illegal to an action that is legal.

How about we compare this--I gag at the mere thought of eating a banana. The smell of bananas makes me physically ill. Conversely, I don't see how anyone can eat bananas! I think people who eat bananas are committing a crime against nature and should be shunned, treated as pariahs. But, that's just my own personal feelings. I am sure that there is at least one other person in the world who feels the same way about bananas as I do. So, let's make eating bananas against the law. Let's substitue abortion for bananas: "I gag at the mere thought of an abortion," "(the thought of a person having) an Abortion makes me physically ill." "I don't see how anyone can have an abortion." "Other people agree with me" "let's make abortions illegal".
Hmmmmmm.....just think about it. I'm not asking you to change your mind. What I'm asking is that you consider how you come across, and understand that maybe the 'persecution' is something you bring upon yourself.

(oh and I really don't like bananas--but, hey! Lots of people do, and I would never presume to take bananas off the market)

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Legal vs illegal-we've been there and done that and being legal doesn't necessarily make it right.
You have no idea how I conduct myself in private. I used to pray with another group in front of an abortion clinic-NO signs, no taunts, nothing negative. (Can't make it there now because of the timing with my job schedule). Just a group of us that prayed every Friday with a priest. We are harraassed all the time. We don't say a word back unless it is a kind word. We get honked at, yelled at, told to get a job, F*** off, etc... None of us has EVER said anything back. One young lady said God bless you to one of the haters and was told to F*** off. Most of the people are little old ladies!!! Very threatening!!!! I happened to wear a "Walk for Life" hoodie into the office once looking up so info for my other job and one person there now pretty much hates me because of my shirt!!! Very tolerant!!! NOT! I've also been harrassed at work for being a Catholic!
None of you know me. I'm actually a kind, easy going person even if my posts don't seem like it. I laugh all the time. I'm kind of the life of the party type. I just tend to write in a sarcastic tone and it comes across as very negative to some people. Even my ex-husband will tell you that I'm a very nice person! That ought to tell you something! lol
I think cutters have control of their brains and bodies. They just need HELP dealing with the issues that are causing them to do that. A schizophrenic doesn't have that control however.
Actually for those of us who believe abortion is killing a child none of the examples listed even compare to legalized murder of the innocent. So, the banana scenerio just doesn't cut it.

All I'm going to say is this: If a person were to accuse you of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you? Just think about it.

If you have to tell me what a grand and wonderful life you have and how nice of a person you are--it just kind of rings of who are you trying to convince? Me? or Yourself?

I know I can be caustic. I know I can be snippy and snarky. I expect to get backlash when I am. It seems like you expect other people on this board to just take your vitriol and venom and not respond....

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Didn't you know? Vitrol and venom in name of God or the Republican party don't count here

You're one of the "nice" people if you argue with them because of God.

YOU were harassed? You were harassing them! The whole point of a sit in, pray in, whatever is to harrass the doctors, clinic, and women seeking an abortion into changing their minds about the procedure. They weren't bothering you. They were quietly making a choice that is right for them. You went to them. You bothered them. How can you possibly see yourself as the victim of harrassment when you're the perpetrator?

I understand and respect that. There is NO doubt abortion is not a black and white issue. On one hand you have the potential life of the unborn fetus versus the rights of the woman carrying this fetus.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Funny, but you never see groups outside of kidney dialysis clinics, or cancer clinics. Don't those people need prayers as much, if not more than, the woman having an abortion? What about the living children who may end up having to go through their childhood w/o a mommy or daddy? Oh and let us not forget the children who are afflicted by end stage renal disease or cancer. Don't they deserve to have a show of support? I mean it is my understanding that the pro-life people who pray in front of abortion clinics are not only praying for the unborn, but also the souls of the women who are having the abortion.

Wouldn't it be nice if one day, a group of people parked themselves in front of the local dialysis clinic and said "God Bless You" to everyone person who went in?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

And just because YOU don't think it's right, doesn't mean it's wrong.

I agree with MarilynK, your presentation is what puts people off. I think I can honestly say that all the pro-choice people I have seen write on this board CAN and DO see the "other" side of the issue. YOU, Kathy, don't even see it, or refuse to acknowledge it (a right is being taken away if abortion is made illegal). Can you see how a woman's right to choose what is right for her would be taken away if abortion were made illegal??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Yes, that would be wonderful. However, to pro life people abortion clinics are murdering the unborn. That is the difference.

well, then--you might want to be parking yourself in the yards of your neighbors who have teenage boys. If they are masturbating they are, undoubtedly, spilling a lot of seed that could, given the right set of circumstances create a child that could be the next Einstein, or discover the cure for cancer.

ETA-Who exactly are you praying for? The unborn? The women who are making decisions? The doctors/medical staff performing the procedure? What is your intent in standing outside a clinic? What do you hope to accomplish?

I'm asking in all seriousness. What do you hope to accomplish by protesting outside an abortion clinic?

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Actuallty the prochoice people on here have been extremely mean to me. But I am used to that! I would LOVE that right to be taken away from women. I dont' think there should be a right to kill the unborn. You prochoice folks act like the pregnant woman is a VICTIM. She rarely is a victim. She makes a decision to be sexually active. She is not a victim at all. The unborn child is 100% a victim. I used to be pro-choice so don't throw accusations out there that I have no idea about the other side. I am passionate about it now because I realize that abortion hurts woman and children and that women are deceived by the whole it's your right to do whatever you want statements.

Actually there is tons of evidence that I am a Christian.
I stick up for myself when I am insulted. Sometimes teh truth hurts and some people take it as venom, etc....

YOU aren't there so don't go making judgments. WAIT, that's what Libs do all the time!!!! No, it is not harrassing them at all. Until you can witness a peaceful prayerful situation like the one we have here you have no room to judge us. And by the way, if you prochoicers don't have a problem with having an abortion why would peaceful prayerful people bother you in the first place???????? We don't say a word to anyone, snear, hold up signs, ANYTHING that could be construed as harrassment.

perhaps a large group should go pray at war zones. tons of murder going on there. Or in Zimbabwe or Sudan. They could use some prayers if you believe so strongly. Hundreds of thousands have been murdered there.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

You didn't answer my question..........

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well, since no one here knows you personally, don't you think it would be beneficial to give us the same evidence that you profess to have IRL?

And yes, sometimes the truth hurts and people don't want to accept the truth--I think that's the case with you. It's really easy to spew venom and hate on an anonymous board because no one know you. You don't have to keep up the facade of niceness here because no one knows you, you can let your hair down so to speak. With that said, I truly hope my impression of you is wrong. Vaya Con Dios.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Lets see, there's an abortion clinic in town. A bit easier than going to the Sudan!

I stand by what I believe in. I'm done for now. Just wanted to state an opinion is regards the the original post.

INTIMIDATION, period end of story. You don't have to say a word, hold a sign or make a gesture. You are giving off the air of judging people who are doing what they feel is right. Trust me, the majority of women who have abortions don't just "decide" to do it. Most think long and hard--HELL, some of us even prayed for insight and guidance!

You tell me that if you were walking into work, and there was a group of people gathered outside your office building--and you KNEW that they did not approve of the job you were doing it wouldn't intimidate you? Or perhaps cause you to have some fear? Even though they never said a word, or held a sign?

Peaceful, prayerful people don't bother me. Nutjob, zealot, fanatics on the other hand do. I'm not saying you are one, I'm just saying what bothers me!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I found this link : Bush Bureaucrats at Dept. of Health and Human Services Redefine Contraception as Abortion | BuzzFlash.org

Even doctors opposed to abortion shy away from establishing contraception as abortion. Cristina Page, in her article for The Huffington Post on this matter noted the following:

In 1999, the physicians -- who, like the movement at large, define pregnancy as beginning at fertilization -- released an open letter to community stating:
"Recently, some special interest groups have claimed, without providing any scientific rationale, that some methods of contraception may have an abortifacient effect ... The 'hormonal contraception is abortifacient' theory is not established fact. It is speculation, and the discussion presented here suggests it is error ... if a family, weighing all the factors affecting their own circumstances, decides to use this modality, we are confident that they are not using an abortifacient."

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Roundup: Catholics Campaign Against Contraception Ban | Reproductive Health | RHRealityCheck.org

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I've read the Bible and a few modern translations. I have no recollection of any "proximity" rule related ot where prayer occurs as it relates to the subject being prayed for. Just exactly how "peaceful" is a truck with pictures of dead fetus parts of unknown origin driving up to the entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic? How "peaceful" is it to get people so riled up that the unstable ones decide shooting a doctor or nurse, or bombing a healthcare clinic is ok?

If you have a problem with the law, change it. What you do is harassement, pure and simple.

Additionally - that you even speak of this subject in the workplace is horrible. No wonder people at work stare at you.

You really do need to get a life. The last time you had sex ,Czechoslovakia was a country. I think you are just bitter and jeolous and want women to be as sexually repressed as you are. You are mean and angry and hide behind God to rationalize it. Go out and get a boyfriend, it might help.

I read a joke once - a person died and came up to the Pearly Gates and as she approached, St. Peter yelled over his shoulder to God, "Remember the whiny, self-rightous one we were talking about .... " I wonder why you remind me of that joke.

Nothing wrong with PEACEFUL protest.

Well, how about peaceful prayer vigil in front of a USMC recruiting office, or a National Guard armory, or a Army Reserve base, or a military resupply depot.
It's all about perspective and what you WANT to do.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

If by "wrong" you mean illegal - up to a point you are correct.

Deceived by whom? The women I know are intelligent and make up their own minds on issues. If there's some nefarious, mass brainwashing going on, who's behind it? Who is the Deceiver? Who is deceiving all the women that believe it's their right to choose what to do with their bodies? Do you have a clue how nutty you sound?

I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever been called a Lib! And isn't 'judgemental' a term that liberals usually fling at conservatives?

I'm glad I dropped by My Coupons today or I never would have learned about 'The Deceiver' of women and the new breed of 'Judgemental Libs'. Either I'm really be out of the loop or you're really delusional. I hope it's the former because the idea of "Judgemental Liberals" tickles my funny bone!

This is a statement I can totally believe

Kathyblablabla - do you also do these prayer thingiemabobbers at IFV clinics? "Babies" are being thrown out left and right there. And, you wouldn't be wasting precious prayer time there. EVERY woman who goes in there ends up with extra babies and most get tossed. At Planned Parenthood, woman seek birth control, sexual education, tubal ligations, STD treatment, HIV Testing, Pap testing, Breast exams, pregnancy tests and prenatal care, ???

Did you know, that in 2006, 3% of PP services was abortion. 19% was cancer screening. Do you really think GOD wants you to scare woman who can't affort cancer screening anywhere else from seeking care at PP because of your hysterical harassment in the name of GOD ????

EXACTLY!

Kathy, let's put this into a perspective you might be able to understand.

What if a huge group of people decided that you shouldn't have the right to air your views on abortion and decided to protest YOU. What if one of these people got their uncle to issue them the necessary permits so that it was completely legal? What if all these people sat outside your house and blocked your driveway so that you felt uneasy about leaving your home? What if dozens of people showed up at your job every day just to let you know that they didn't like what you're doing? What if dozens of people were waiting at your house when you got off work so that you felt uneasy about entering your home? What if your neighbors told them to go away and stop bothering you?

Are you going to believe that these people who are bothering you are the victims of harassment because your neighbors said something to them? Are you going to believe that each and every person in this crowd means you no harm? Are you going to believe that you could be in danger?

I'm not mixing apples and oranges. This a spot on analogy of what you're doing to those people at the clinics. Before you say that they no right to bother you because you have the legal right to believe what you want, just remember that they have the legal right to make a choice and you're bothering them.

I can't fathom why you believe that it's ok for you to harass them but think that people who say anything to you about harassing them are the bad guys. You went to their business intent on making them do what you think they should do. I guarantee that if all those people in that mythical crowd were harassing you and the shoe were on the other foot, you'd change your idea about who's the victim PDQ.

You're not the victim, honey. You're the perpetrator.

good luck. I"ve been trying to get her to at least acknowldege the other side of things....not AGREE with it, but, for God's sake, acknowledge that it DOES exist......No luck so far. But, I guess I can pray about it, and hope the she "sees the light"????

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Marilyn & Jaded, Love you guys too!!!!

I just get so sick of others trying to force their views on others because of their religious beliefs. Like I said, I'm a Catholic but would NEVER dream of pushing any of my beliefs on others. Besides I disagree with the churches view on birth control. Like I said my body, my choice. And I also respect the decision some women make to have abortions. They did what was right for them and who in the world am I to judge.

Jen

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Mom to Jake, Zach & Meghan
SJCC STREAKS FOOTBALL!!
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I do not believe that a fetus is a human being. It is a potential life. I do not believe that it is killing a child. It is ending the potential life. The fact that the potential life is harboured in my body gives me every right to decide whether or not it has the chance to live. That is my decision, not yours, not the Presidents, not your God. It is a decision that I must make for myself with my backround and my higher power. I think it is hypocritical of so many that are prolife with infants but once the fetus is born they don't give a crap. How do you feel about war. Millions of innocent breathing children are dead because we bombed them. Are you against war? Have you silently prayed against the slaughter of those innocent breathing children? How about the death penalty. Do you mind injecting a living breathing person with drugs to kill them? Are you sure every person that has died like this was guilty? If you are going to be pro life at least be consistant.

No matter where you look, you'll never find anything that backs up that one. No expert disputes that a growing fetus is alive. But if reframing it this way makes YOU feel better...

I don't understand this one - who is "prolife with infants but once the fetus is born they don't give a crap?" Is that what you really meant to post? What does that mean?

How do I feel about the war? I despise it, as well as the fact that *innocent breathing children are dead*
I have prayed for an end to war and an end to all destruction of innocent life of infants, children and adults.

I have prayed even harder for the unborn children. They need more prayers than everyone.

Did you know that the most dangerous place you or anyone could EVER be is in the womb??? Your chances of losing your LIFE (that's what it is - hands down - LIFE) are greater there than on any battle field on earth. Do the research.

We lose more babies to abortion every year than we have ever lost in any war.

You may choose to be pro-choice. But be honest about what you tell yourself. The actual question about when that embryo becomes a baby is what is argued. But not whether or not it is LIFE.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I think, and this is just my opinion, that there are a lot of people in Iraq and Afghanistan that would argue that the womb is more dangerous than were they are right now at this very minute.

Ok, we lose more embryos to abortion than we have ever lost in war. I'll take you at your word. You seem to have investigated this and could cite sources if needed. But, I'm able to accept what you say as more probable than not. And I can even see where this is true, simply because wars have typically had an ending point. Thus far, abortion has not.

But, tell me how many children would have been born and either placed in the foster system, or raised in situations were drugs and alcohol were the sustanance of choice by the birth mother? How many children are currently in the foster care system because the mother was either unwilling or unable to care for the child because of their drug/alcohol addiction? How many children have been born and are currently cared for by a state agency or some Federally funded program because they were born w/ drug and alcohol related defects or conditions (FAS for example)? Will those children ever be normal? Would it have been better for the mothers to have aborted than to have given birth?
How many children live below the poverty level because their mother gave birth to them because her religious beliefs prohibit birth control and/or abortion? (please don't think I'm picking on Catholics--they aren't the only ones who eschew birtch control and abortion).

Like I said before, we can play the "what if" game all day long. I would just like to see both sides of the argument acknowledge that the other side MIGHT have some valid points.
I understand why some people believe that life begins at conception. I understand their thoughts that abortion is killing an unborn baby. I have the capacity to understand complex thoughts and opinions, even if I don't agree with them. But, in this argument, their really are no winners. If you outlaw abortions then you have women having babies who don't want them, or you have women getting kitchen abortions and dying, or you have children born w/ severe defects because the mother couldn't/wouldn't give up drugs/alcohol for 6-9 months. If you allow abortions, then there is a huge issue of at what point should they be legal, the Christian community is appalled and angry (anger may not be the best descriptor, but best I could come up with), then you have the whole state rights vs. federal laws. So, I think in the end, we have to do the best we can and learn to accept that in truth there really isn't a cut and dried answer that's going to make everyone happy.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

My sentiments exactly. I completely understand the pro-life stand on this. I did a report on this in college, and the pictures I came across were UNbelievable.


The bottom line for me is that I think it should still be MY choice. Personally I do not choose to have an abortion. But, I am thankful we have the right to make decisions on our own, about our bodies. I still stand by the bumper sticker "Don't approve of abortion??? Don't have one".

For the men, I wonder how they would feel if it were illegal to perform circumcision??? Or, if it were mandatory...... Hmmmm

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Believe me, Marilyn, I have a great deal more respect for a voice that can say "I understand why some people believe that life begins at conception." And I can say that I understand the argument that pro-choicers use when they express that "a baby's life begins at birth." I don't agree with it, but I absolutely understand that they do believe this to be fact.

What I cannot accept is anyone suggesting that the embryo growing inside of a mother's womb isn't "life." That's just ignorance.

This issue has run its all-too-predictable course too recently for me to place any real energy into it. The same people are arguing the same points, complete with the identical scenario from last time of trying to back Kathytheshopper into a corner because of "the way she expresses herself."

There are many perspectives here, and I'm always interested in the justifications people employ for what they believe. This topic is too overplayed from recent weeks. Nobody changes anyone's mind here. But it is worth getting clarification on points every now and then.

Regarding the point you brought up about unwanted children placed in foster care, or abused, there is always the adoption route - many, many childless families in our own country are on years long waiting lists for the babies they can never, themselves have biologically. This does include children with special needs.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I would like her to answer questions when asked them. How she chooses to express herself, that's her prerogative (sp?). I don't like when people start spouting off, and then when asked to clarify or back something up.....POOF, they're gone, or do circles with what they have already said.

I'm with you.....this discussion is not really going anywhere.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well, comparing unwanted foreskin to an unborn baby - that's a new one...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

An embryo, be it a chicken, a feline or human defines life and living organism that the cells begin to combine, so I understand your perspective.

Ahhh...if a mother is two damned shelfish that she won't give up drug/alcohol to give a baby she chooses to carry to term, what makes any of us believe she's going to be unselfish enough to place the child in a home that will love and care for it. KWIM?

So much of this discussion are fueled by personal feelings and opinions--and when there are disagreements it can feel very much like a personal attack (been there, done that, etc.). It' when we can agree to disagree and at the very least show respect to the other that we will be better human beings!

As to how people express themselves here--Yes, it is their right to express themselves any way they see fit. But, if they come across as a biggoted know it all, judgmental, cranky, witch--then they should expect to be called on it. And sometimes, you don't really realize how a post could be interpreted unless someone says "hey, that was really rude!" (again, been there, done that). Also, if someone is wanting to change people's minds they will have more luck with a calm rational approach and manner.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

No, not comparing unwanted (in some cases at least, I guess) foreskin to an unborn baby....I am equating being able to make your own choice about your body, or body of a loved one. I see the right to have or not have an abortion your own personal right. Just like a man has the right to keep or remove his foreskin. Did that make sense?? How about piercing your ears...that is YOUR right if you want to do it or not.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

The biggest problem with the intense desire to overturn Roe vs Wade is the lack of understanding of what it could mean in the long run. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor tried several times to help the Right to Life folks understand the downside of what they were/are trying to do but could never seem to get any of them to understand the concept of Costitutional Law.

The right to use birth control, have an abortion, have children, not have children, ie Reproductive Rights, all fall under the Constitutional Right to Privacy. If Roe vs Wade is ever overturned ALL of us, EVERY American, will lose their right to make their own family planning choices. The initial changes will most certainly result in abortion and many, if not most/all, forms of birth control becoming illegal. But fast forward a decade or two. The government decides ALL family planning issues. What if the government decides that single women can't have children? Or the blind? The deaf? How would you feel if your child, now an adult, were forcibly sterilized by the government? Or forced to have an abortion? Remember, when you give up your reproductive rights to the government, there is NO guarantee that the government will choose what is physically best or morally right for you!

What about the individual rights of the person that the mother choses to abort (terminate, kill, get rid of, whatever term that you like)?
Why is it that a doctor can be held responsible for that unborn person if they do not have rights?

If a woman is going to the doctor, then she obviously intends to carry the baby to term. She intends to let the life inside of her become a person. In that instance it's like a person in a vegetative state--if the Dr. does not provide the accepted standard of care then they should be held accountable. That person in a vegetative state has rights, but is not truly living.

By choosing to terminate a pregnancy you are terminating life and any possibility or expectation of a human being. Sorry to say but up until about 5 months, most embryos from all species look alike. And I believe that if science continues to progress they will be able to implant embryos from one species into another. Who knows what the end result would be.

It's really easy to get emotional and think of the embryo as "what if", "could bes" "maybe" "probably", etc. It's really easy to get angry and think how cold and cruel and callous of any woman to terminate a pregnancy---but, and I hope none of you pro-choice women have ever made mistakes in your life, and if you do, I'm assuming you don't try to correct them. Some pregnancies are mistakes! Period end of story. Shouldn't have happened, made a baaaad decision (sometimes a really bad decision) by having sex with someone you loved/trusted, or whatever. If a woman views the life growing inside of her as a horrible, life altering mistake, and she can correct it, then she should have that choice and that right.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I am not a person that uses "emotions" in my thinking. I just based my opinion on the proven scientific facts that are recognized by the majority of the medical, biologicial, and science fields.

If you notice..I do not bring "religion" into the subject. Because that always has someone bashing someone's else's religion..while on the other hand that same person will claim their own verison of "religion justification" for what they have done.

I doubt if I will ever change my mind ..I do not think anyone has the right to take another life..just because they chose to.

Edited to add: I doubt also that a lot of people will change their mind either way. So, I will try not to argue the point any longer.

I call bullsh*t....every person uses some level of emotion in forming their opinions! EVERY person, unless they are robotic. I didn't bring religion into the comment you quoted. I don't intend to chang anyone's mind. But sharing thoughts, opinions and ideas can only benefit us a whole. I'm not asking anyone to change their mind. What I have always held was that we should try and acknowledge that the other side of the argument has some valid points and try to reach some sort of mutual respect.

Here's a thought that came to me: Anyone who joins the military knows that they stand a chance of having to kill another person(especially in these times), thus they are choosing to kill--all hypothetically speaking of course. Police officers are the same way...so, are these men and women who choose the military or law enforcement are wrong?

What I'm saying is their are very few hot topic issues that are as cut and dried as some would have you believe. Shades of gray, shades of gray--not just black and white!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Off topic, but, I'm going there anyway...... Something that bothers me is when a person tries to get out of military duty citing it is against their religious beliefs to fight in a war, kill people, etc. What the hell did you join the military for????

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

It holds also that those who are pro life must be also anti capital punishment, don't you think? As well as anti war. Anti anything that takes away or has the potential to take away life from anyone. But I find that most people who are anti pro choice are also pro war and pro capital punishment. Seems sort of contradictory, doesn't it?

In another thread, we have a poster saying that smoking marijuana should be legal because it is my body or some such thing. I think that this is what those of us who are pro choice and I use pro choice and not pro abortion because that is what I am...for the choice to do what I want with my body. I want that choice. I want other women to have that choice. I personally cannot see a reason for me to have an abortion but I can see how another woman might and I want her to have the choice to either carry the baby, give it up for adoption or have the pregnancy terminated. I feel compassion for her predicament and support her adult decision to do what she wants with her life in this regard. I do not have to live her life nor do I have the right to tell her how she will live the rest of her life.

Though I can see the other side, and I can empathize with those who are pro life, for me it is about the legal rights that I have as a woman. I do not want my rights taken away. Nor the rights of someone who is pro life.

On another subject upthread....re: a pray in at a PP office.....I can't think of anything more intimidating....and it is meant to be. Kathy, I hope you can take what is lovingly offered to you in the way of advice from the ladies here today and change your delivery of your "Christian" message. You get more flies with honey than with vineagar. And that is said with great care.

I would like statistics also on how the womb is the most dangerous place to be as well. I also think that those people who live in war torn countries and in poverty stricken countries and those in America who live in the poorest parts of our country might disagree. about where the danger lies. They are the ones who need prayers yet I don't see anyone sitting outside of Harlem or Watts or even at the borders praying for those souls who are gong to be lost because of hunger, crime and abuse.

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I can remember before Roe. Sometimes women would see no choice but suicide. Others would attempt self induced or back alley abortions and bleed to death, Others gave birth and threw the baby in a dumpster. It was far more common back then that it is now.

I would never want to go back to those days. And, I think about women like Andrea Dwyer who's xhildren should never have been born.

Here is one of the many sites out there. Abortion Deaths Compared to War Deaths


If you choose to research this further, you'll find much of the same.

You could ask the people in the war torn countries and in poverty stricken countries where the dangers lie. You'd have gained some real insight into their own particular real hell.

But if you wanted to know factually where the most dangerous place one could ever spend time (if they, indeed, survive it), it would be in the womb.

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

OK--could you please provide specific sources that show the womb is the most dangerous place? I mean, all I can find are religious oriented cites using the same tagline. And really, if you have to resort to this kind of tactics to argue your point, then it become pointless.

(I get the point that you're trying to make, but, come on...)

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The figures from the Planned Parenthood Guttmacher Institute show ...From 1973 (since Roe v. Wade) through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred here in the USA. That was 3 years ago..so the number is even higher.
Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

I'm going to close this thread now, please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.......Thanks!

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Nicole