Bob Barr is the Libertarian Party candidate for president

Bob Barr Criticizes Barack Obama Plan to Provide Health Insurance for Illegal Aliens — Bob Barr 2008

“Sen. Obama doesn’t plan on giving them coverage. He plans on making the taxpayers give them coverage. There’s a big difference,” notes Barr.

But there’s an even more fundamental issue. Approximately one-quarter of those persons who are uninsured are in America illegally. “It’s not fair to expect U.S. taxpayers to pay for health insurance for the citizens of another nation. America’s bloated welfare state is expensive enough, and even after recent reforms it still creates a disincentive to work. Handing out insurance to people who have come to America illegally will encourage even greater illegal immigration,” Barr explains. “And that, in turn, will push up government health care expenditures, creating a vicious cycle of more and more spending and more and more illegal immigration.”"

I would appreciate seeing a reliable source for Mr. Barr's conclusion that:

B.O. says the number of uninsured that he wants to insure through his plan.

The number he cites is not equal to the number of uninsured legal citizens that we have in America.

The number he cites can only be arrived at when you add the legal uninsured PLUS the number of illegals that are estimated to be in this country.

He says he's not counting illegals, but if that's so.... who do all those extra numbers of 'uninsured people he'll cover' represent?

ETA: Obama says he'll cover the '45 million who don't have health insurance' or 'the 47 million who don't have health insurance' depending on whatever speech he's giving. That's not a significant difference. If he means 47 million and is just rounding down, no biggie, and in fact, page 21 of the 2006 census does say that there are 47 million uninsured in the US.

However, only 35.7M of those people are citizens and the other 10.3M declared themselves 'not a citizen.'

So if he's covering 47M.... he's covering all of the uninsured.... and 10.3M are not US citizens.

I guess that doesn't mean they are all illegal, but..... they're not Americans.

Mr. Barr specifically mentioned illegals. The article cited below uses 2005 figures and at that time there were 46.6 million uninsured. These uninsured are citizens or legal residents of our country not illegals.

The Number of Uninsured Americans Is at an All-Time High, 8/29/06

BTW, the number of uninsured has increased by at least a million each year since 2004 so if anything Senator Obama is underestimating the problem.

As for "I guess that doesn't mean they are all illegal, but..... they're not Americans", I'm always surprised and disappointed at such a remark. All of my ancestors were at one point not American and I'd venture to guess that's true of most of us.

Wow - you find me to be a disappointment? What a surprise!

If I waltzed into Canada tomorrow I wouldn't expect that their government would pick up the tab for casting my broken arm regardless of whether or not I was there legally.

There is a big difference between being a CITIZEN of a nation and being afforded the benefits of that citizenship and being a VISITOR in a nation and expecting those benefits. I would assume that a number of those foreigners are students just here to get an education who will eventually be graduating with a degree and returning to their homeland. Are we supposed to foot the bill for their health insurance while they're here?

And I doubt your assertion that ALL of those 10.3M are here legally. We don't KNOW that. We just know that they responded to the census, and both legal and illegal immigrants do fill those out. They go to every single residence in the US.

Do I want anyone who is sick to lay on the sidewalk and die because they don't have health insurance? Obviously not. But do I want the American government to spend billions of dollars creating a bureaucracy to cover free doctors visits for some university student from Indonesia who has the sniffles? Um.... no, not really.

You say the number of uninsured has gone up by $1M annually over that for years. I'd like a credible source for that, please. The percentage of chronically homeless people has dropped by 30% in the last four years according to a study that was released just this week, and for some reason I think that it's possible that there might be some correlation between the two.

I don't get into these McCain did this...blah blah blah. Obama did that ... blah blah blah.

But, as for health care, here's the thing. Corporate America wants them here. They make profits soar because they demand very little. in the way of benefits. They are just thrilled to have a chance to better their life and the lives of their loved ones. They aren't evil. Actually, the few "illegal" Hispanic people I know are honest and hold their family and faith in high regard. There is no way they are going "home" any time soon. So, do you want people dying in the street? Do you want the illegal child with measles or scabes infecting your child? Do you want babies born in the US to be more at risk than they already are if their mother is poor? The US already funds most of the healthcare provided in this country - Medicare and Medicaid.

We pay less for a lot of stuff because of illegal immigrants. If our Country (Corporate America) wanted to stop it, they would. But, they don't. So, we pay less for food and services, but maybe more in taxes so when they get sick, they can get care. And, the faster we can make them better, the faster they can get back to work and pick your tomatoes, mow your lawn, serve your food, or put your roof on for half the price of a US Citizen. Additionally, they pay lots of consumer taxes and get little to nothing from them. So, I figure it is a wash. But, it sure comes in handy for Corporate America to get people people to hate the entirely wrong group of people, doesn't it? Be angry at the Corporations who hire them and who make the profits, but who let you provide for their health care because they know you don't want the person next to you at the grocery store giving you TB.

FYI - when we were in France in 2001, my son had an ear infection. We went to the local hospital who treated him, gave him medication and sent us on our way. They didn't care where we were from or how much money we had.

"Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's campaign Friday said his universal health plans do not extend to undocumented immigrants." Comes from this article dated 7/25/08

Obama says his health plan won't include undocumented immigrants - Phoenix Business Journal:

"There are an estimated 47 million persons on the U.S. without health insurance. Illegal immigrants and their U.S.-born children make up 8.3 million of that uninsured number, according to the Center for Immigration Studies.
Thirteen percent of American citizens do not have health insurance compared to 69 percent of illegal immigrants in Arizona, 70 percent in Texas and 64 percent nationally, according to CIS."

Will his plan cover the "47 million which include illegal immigrants" or will it only cover Americans?

If anyone has the chance, rent the movie "A Day Without A Mexican"

[quote=wowitsdark;3025030]

I was speaking generally but .... .

If I'm not mistaken US citizens visiting and or legally residing in other countries are eligible for that country's health program. I could be mistaken but as another poster on this thread said that was her experience in Canada and I know for a fact it is true for a friend who has lived as a legal resident in both Germany and Great Britain.

Don't most universities have health insurance plans available to students. I also think that most students attending school here are from fairly well off families who are able to afford health coverage for the student. If not, they are likely sponsored by an organization that would provide such coverage.

Frankly doubt an illegal immigrant would fill out a census form. Lots of citizens can't be bothered. If you can cite a source that refutes my "assertion" and btw, that of the census bureau, please post.


Right, buck up kid.

I think I said the number of uninsured had gone up by a million a year not $1M. At any rate, the number in 2001 was 41.2, in 2005 it was 46.6. Those figures came from the source cited in my earlier post, if you don't find the figures credible, please cite a credible source with contrary information.

There is a major difference between visiting a country ..or coming into a country illegal. People that come into this country are not "honest people", How can someone be "honest" when they delibertaly break the laws?
Wait until these illegals are old enough to go into nursing homes that is when the insurance costs will raise on all taxpayers.

It is a load of bull about your food prices would increase if we didn't have "illegal mexican workers". If people really cared about the people they would realize that you are aiding by keeping a group of people poor just so that you can have cheap food/labor.

And, that is exactly the point. I (you) are not the one's doing the keeping. Neither is Obama, who is just trying to figure out how to deal humanly with the problem created by those who hire them. Again, be mad at the ones who also have you convinced it isn't fair to tax them more. Poor, poor corporations ....

If the jobs weren't here, they wouldn't be here. Get angry at the ones making the policy to not go after the corporations, who benefit daily and who expect me (us) to pay the consequences.

To reiterate, Senator Obama's plan does not provide coverage to illegal aliens in spite of what Mr. Barr asserts.

I don't think its a load of bull that food prices would not increase without "illegal mexican workers." I believe that not only food would go up in price but also the new housing market would be impacted if contractors didn't have access to workers who were willing to accept lower wages undercutting our own citizens who not only demand but deserve to be paid a fair wage for such work.

ITA with your last sentence btw. Tell that to the companies/people who employ them.

It is not ALL the companies fault. We, (US society) is fine with the fact that people are paid less. Should not any worker be paid a decent wage? There have been cracked down on companies this past year on hiring illegals. But more people are upset because the illegals are forced to leave. Yes, the companies have to pay fines, etc.

If Obama plan is not going to cover illegals than he needs to quit using the 47 million number that he keeps talking about. He needs to use the right information or people that do check facts start noticing the difference.

Of course all people should be paid a decent wage. As a member of US society, I'm not fine with the fact that illegals are paid less undercutting our own workers but there is damn little I (we) can do about it besides boycotting here and there. Fines, heck, put some CEO's in jail!!

Speaking for myself, I'm not upset when illegals are forced to leave. I think there are some stories that get played on newschannels that tug on people's heartstrings but those stories are the exception, not the rule. Illegals are sent home every day and most people could care less.

Please show me credible proof that illegals are included in the 47 million number that Senator Obama uses.

The information I posted earlier came from The Center for Immigration Studies.
While some might not consider it a "credible source" it is cited in refernce for a lot of studies, articles, etc.

"The Center for Immigration Studies ( CIS ) is a highly regarded independent, non-partisan, non-profit Washington D.C. based research organization founded in 1985.
Its mission is to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy by providing research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, and fiscal aspects of immigration on the United States.
CIS provides a variety of services for policymakers, journalists, and academics, including an e-mail news service, a monthly Backgrounder series and other publications, congressional testimony, and public briefings."

Acording to my post earlier..statement is from the Center for Immigration Studies.
"There are an estimated 47 million persons on the U.S. without health insurance. Illegal immigrants and their U.S.-born children make up 8.3 million of that uninsured number, according to the Center for Immigration Studies."

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I don't doubt for a minute there are millions of illegals in our country but just my quick reading of how some of the numbers were arrived at convinces me that a group like CIS (funded in part by Richard Melon Scaife btw) would not be above manipulating the numbers to fit a desired outcome.

I know there are a lot of illegal mexican workers in the construction business (think about the housing boom of 2005) and I wouldn't say it did a dam thing to "cheapen" the price of a home.

Not sure if this was mentioned or not, but, not all the illegal Mexicans are "working men". DD works at the hospital and told me about a bus load of pregnant women coming in for health care, and none of them was a legal citizen.

I have no problem with people immigrating here, but, do it the legal way.

__________________
Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I agree - the crew that did roofing in my neighborhood was, I believe, largely illegals, but the bid I got from that company to do our house wasn't any cheaper than the bid I got from the local guy who does it with his son.

My physician cousin who lives within about 8 hours of the US/Mexico border frequently delivers babies of Mexican women who just came to have their babies, get that US birth cert., and return home to Mexico. They show up in the ER in labor with no pre- or post-natal care as part of the experience.

You ask me for a source of where Obama got the "47 million" number. This is the information that Congress is given and accepts as a base fact.
You might not agree with it..but that is what decisions are being based on.

The number given by the CIS is viewed as being low-balled by most places. The estimated number of illegals is higher than that and most do not have medical insurance.
I agree numbers and statistics can be manipulated to proof whatever you want

Senator Obama's figure matches up with the 2006 figures at the census site cited by another poster. The breakdown is 46,995,000 total uninsured. Broken down as follows: 34,380,000 native born; 12,615,000 foreign born. Of the foreign born 2,384,000 are naturalized citizens and 10,231,000 are non-citizens. I suspect there are some who would make the leap that if they are not citizens they are illegal but that is simply not the case.

Researching CIS and based on it's funding, I'm not surprised that there are some members of Congress who accept CIS conclusions as "fact". I doubt, however, that both sides of the aisle view CIS conclusions the same.

The simple fact of the matter is that we do provide emergency care to illegals but to my knowledge, we do not, nor does Senator Obama want us to, provide long term health coverage to illegals.

As far as women coming across the border for the express purpose of having their babies born here, I frankly think we should reconsider the law that allows those born in this country to automatically become a citizen.

Please also remember that republicans controlled the entire government from Mr. Bush's election until 2006, plenty of time IMO for those who are agonizing over Mr. Barr's interpretation of Senator Obama's proposal to correct the situation.

There is a fairly simple thing that can be done to make it less profitable for people to hire illegals. Simply pass severe monetary penalties plus mandatory jail time for anyone hiring an illegal. The jail time would include the president and/or CEO of any company that hires them as well. It wouldn't take long for the jobs to dry up and many would just go home. Most company heads would simply not take the chance and those that did could be dealt with. Right now they get slapped with a small fine and scolded for being naughty. Two weeks per illegal to run consecutively and a fine of say 100 K to come out of their pockets and not payable from company money. White collar criminals are treated too nice and often have their monetary damages pulled from the company coffers. We have to stop treating corporations differently than individuals. They demand free speech and other rights given to individuals but they don't want to be treated that way when they break a law. Then all of a sudden the onus is on the corporation to put up the money and not the person making the decision to begin with.

If we would follow through with this, the problem of health care for them would be smaller and more manageable because there would be fewer here.

Plus it would answer the question of whether our food would cost more. Since much of it comes from other countries, I'm not sure.

Obama lost me on health care when he pretended during the primaries that universal health care was EVIL and then turned around and calls his plan universal even as the fact checkers say that he'd have cracks in his plan that would leave thousands out in the cold. It's unacceptable.