I just went through every post in the McCain thread with 100 posts. NOT ONE TIME that I can see did I personally attack anyone unless you want to say "kool aid drinkers" is an attack. From my posts, however, I have received the following comments:
truble-she is one sick puppy, Sick, sick, sick.
usnamom-Get help. --low class, bigoted, not very nice---posts crazy ****---refers to me as belonging to the KKK, "you are not a good Catholic". McCain has serious character flaws so do you....
SOmeone is ashamed they are a Catholic because I am a Catholic.
Jaded-Refence to my post-I forgot how repressed many Americans are....
Jeanief-calls me disgusting, pathetic, racist, bigoted, ignorant and demented. Also I have bigoted, racist deluded responses.
Ok, ladies (lol), will you please state where I made ANY personal attacks against you???? You may not like what I have to say, you may not like my sarcastic writing method but I am not viscioiusly attacking anyone. Yes, I am sarcastic and I'm sure seeing that in writing has a different feeling than hearing it in a conversation. If you are going to start being snotty to me you are going to get some back. However, I don't call all the names you "open minded" people call me.
And in the Toby Keith thread-racist, homophobe, low brow (Neanderthal) mentality, sad, sick, pathetic and a cockroach. All for citing actual statisics about the crime/race problem that is developing where I live, which by the way, has been identified as a problem by the community leaders and the schools who are trying to figure out ways to handle the problem.

Racism very apparent in your posts....but being a racist you will deny this. Racists are bigots, pathetic, disgusting, ignorant, deluded and demented...but, once again because you have all those qualities and display them in your posts, you will never accept these as part of your makeup. You can deny them to yourself, but not everyone else who clearly sees them.

Not much of a challenge. I call a bigot a bigot and racist a racist. And racism and bigotry are bred in ignorance...

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

And what gives you the right to name call me? You can site reasons why you disagree with what I say but you don't need to resort to all the name calling and bashing. If pointing out facts is racist so be it. And of course I will get bashed again for saying that I have both gay and African American friends but of course that doesn't count because then I don't fit the name calling that you all love so much!

It's so funny to see people trot out their gay and/or African-American "friends" when they need them and then pocket them back up when the post is over.

In reference to your question, I didn't call you names, I merely mentioned that Americans are repressed. I feel that applies to you.

If you don't like what people have to say about you, either put them on ignore or stop giving people reason to do so. No one calls wowitsdark or mom2twins, etc names. Study their posts and find out why.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Yep, they are very nice people! I also know there are many, many other nice people on here who get slammed and beat up alot from certain chronically mean people.
We've already been through the trotting out my friends before and I knew someone would have to bring that up again. and try to twist it to a negative. It means that maybe, just maybe, I'm not the awful person you folks like to think I am. And how do you know I "pocket them up" when the post is over. YOu know me that well? I have quite a few gay cousins and I treat them just the same as anyone else. Why wouldn't I ? I have almost 40 cousins with two of them gay and one of them is one of my favorites. I really sound homophobic now huh? And the fact that I dated an African American for almost three years and just 10 minutes ago responded to an email from another black friend makes me pretty racist too. I got his daughers email to let her know how much I appreciate her service to our country as she heads to South Korea for more training. I think because I tend to write sarcastically some of you don't really understand my presentation.
I'm still waiting for someone to pull out all the things I wrote that would even remotely justify all the name calling. I called no one a bad name. I must have had over a dozen direct asaults on my character for my opinons and my statemetns of fact.

You know? Since I decided to not let certain posters push my buttons, I have been a much more contented person.

I'm just saying ladies (and gents if there are some here).....

I may respond to a particular post, but I don't sit and stew about it. I honestly can't tell you what certain posters have spouted in the last week.

Can't we all just get along??? LOL

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Kathy as much as you want, you cannot have it both ways. You come on here, post extremely inflammatory posts....then when you get slammed you come back here cheerfully saying "lol lol just a joke or just a test, you guys make me laugh and extend my life with all this laughter and all that crap, then you come on here and boo hoo about how awful we all are to you. You tell us we can't take a joke, just kidding, yadda yadda yadda, but then appear here as the martyr that did nothing to deserve all the treatment from all these bullies on here. Make up your mind...are you playing games (its is just a joke lol -one of your favorite ploys--or it is a test and we all passed--another of your favorite cover-ups) or you really are as vile as your posts make you appear. In either case, your posts are what draw responses from those members of the community that you are calling out. You set yourself up either way. Trying to make us feel guilty or feel sorry for you doesn't work simply because of your posts. Now that you are getting attention for your terrible posts--be they "jokes" or in earnest, you have only yourself to blame.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

As I have said, you might not like my presentation but you have NOT answered the question I posted. Where are any personal attacks made by me??? And if you don't like my posts what gives you the right to call me names? It's a simple question.

So you don't like my responses to your vitriol, put me on your ignore list. If you are trying to shame me into letting your "presentation" of your vitriol stop me from responding to your posts on a public forum, it is not going to happen. Don't like the poster, ignore me, simple as that. You are not my mother or my boss and have no control over my mind so get over it.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

That's classic. I'm supposed to ignore YOU but if I'm so offensive to you that you feel compelled to call me names then YOU ignore me.
Once again, where did I call anyone any names???? No one has been able to show that because I didn't. All of you who lower yourself to such name calling show YOUR true colors when you do that.

I never said I was going to ignore you, nor did I ever come on here crying out for sympathy for the poor way I am supposedly being treated. This is a public forum/message board and if you can't deal with backlash from your racist and bigoted stances, then maybe you would be best served by starting your own blog or board where you can censor the membership and the posts. If you post on a public forum you deal with with public responses. Deal with it or don't, but stop being a cry baby. I could care less whether you ignore me or not. Obviously if you choose to post I want you to have a chance to see my responses to your posts or I would not be posting on a PUBLIC FORUM where you will see them--I am just saying if you don't like what I post your option is to ignore me. It is also a mature thing to do. Post and see the responses or don't post...those are your options if you don't OWN the board.
Oh and by the way, I don't ever post and then "claim" that these are just jokes....trying to hide my true colors like you continually do. I post and then stand by my posts.

__________________
"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

QUOTE: -I am just saying if you don't like what I post your option is to ignore me. It is also a mature thing to do. QUOTE
And wouldn't that be the MATURE thing for you to do instead of resorting to name calling because you don't like what I say?????
Still, no one has pointed out any NAME CALLING OR PERSONAL ATTACKS I HAVE MADE. Yet YOU can justify your immature name calling.

One thing I have noticed is how when some people are called to the table on their posts (which they post, since we don't know each other IRL and that is all we can go on) they immediately resort to the "I am a victim" and "Everyone is picking on me" and "I haven't done anything wrong except point out facts" when it is apparent to more than one person that what has been posted is exactly what I think it is....racist, homophobic etc....

KTS, believe it or not, truble, Jeanie, jaded and the others you mentioned do not know each other so we have not influenced each others thoughts but independently came to the same conclusion over time from your very own posts that you are "Racist, homophobic, bigotted, mean spirited etc". I know I have read other peoples posts telling you that but it hasn't changed your posts which tells me and others that this is the way you want to come across. Which is okay but you should be ready to put your big girl panties on and accept whatever comes your way. Just because you haven't called us names (????) perhaps you have posted what I call racist, homophobic items. When I post here, I am showing a part of who I am....Liberal, conservative, kind, mean, racist, tolerant, you get my drift. So, when you post something that is unkind, racist, homophobic, etc....expect to be thought of as such.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

First of all I don't see myself as a victim. I do see mean people on here and there are certain people on here who will get pounced on quickly by a certain other group of people.
I just find it amazing how quickly people resort ot name calling when they don't like something they read and then tell the person who calls them out on it to ignore it if they don't like it. Seems to me certain pepole want to play both sides whenver it is in their favor.
As far as racism - I brought up verifiable statistics concerning the rising crime rate in my town that directly correlate to the rising migration problem from Chicago. YOU are the folks saying that my statements are racist. YOU are the people who are so quick to jump on someone and judge them. If those statemetns are racist then my whole town is racist and so are the state crime records. The truth is the truth and staing FACTS is not racist.

As far as my "racist" comment about names....check babynames.org.uk and click on African American names and read the lists. Then compare that to the top U.S. baby names per the Soc Security records and tell me the names are so similar that a name could never be associated with a race. Is it racist to call Mr. Obrien Irish? I work with a man from Nepal whose first name is Keshab. If you read that name would you really think he is your white next door neighbor? Probably not. But that's not racist. Or how about Lei Chan? Are they Asian? Or couse not, that would be RACIST!!!!

What gives her the right? The right to voice her opinion about you...?

The same right you exercise when you voice your opinions about people who are pro-choice, liberals, "bad catholic," or whatever topic you are choosing that day.

It's just an opinion. If you choose to take it personally (after all, we are just some strangers on silly coupon board) maybe you should remember these two simple things...

Number one... Just because a person is crafty enough to send a message without directly calling someone out by name, doesn't mean the intent isn't implied or clearly received -- when you express your opinion about a group or sub-group of people in a open forum (even if it is based totally on facts), chances are you might have someone present in that group that you offend. You may see things one way, they may see it another. You choose to put yourself and your opinions out there...and if someone you offend sees those as raciest, pathetic, bigoted, or close-minded that is their opinion. While you may not call someone out by name, generalizing can cause the same effect. Basically, if you are willing to put yourself out there, but better be ready to get it back...especially if you don't think about what you say before you say it.

Secondly... Haven't you ever heard the old saying "sticks and stones, can break your bones....?" I don't understand why you are so affected by what some strangers say about you? If you are so secure in what you think and your own beliefs, then what does it matter what if any names you get called around here? I haven't seen anyone personally attack you outside of the scope of your opinions...it is your that is turning it into a personal attack and considering it "name calling." And don't act so innocent...because you may not have directly called anyone a "name" but you've sure done your share in throwing around sterotypes and generalizations. So, what I'm trying to say is toughen-up, ladybug. If you can't take the heat, get out of this sandbox and find some new kids to play with.

Okay, enough of this...it's Sunday...and I need to go back to being a bad catholic. That, and I have a nice big glass of kool-aid waiting for me and I've got to bring in the flag yet (can't have it fly after dark, ya know). Oh, I better not forget to take my meds....because I need them ya know....cause I can't see without them....the forest and the trees, it all just get's very confusing you know, can't see the difference.

Always,
Your favorite Baby Killer

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

Facts are not racist, but the way you presented them is.....Let's see, you want the Confederate Flag to fly, when you presented the facts as you call them about the crime in your city, you chose to use names that were clearly AA names as proof of who was being prosecuted, just to name a few. Your posts about part A into part B was low class and the use of the word schlong was unladylike at the very least.

Just a few examples of who you have presented as who you are. Your comments to a member about her private pain of abortion was less than supportive before you got called out on it, which quickly changed your tune and then you were all about praying for her.

You fool no one, except maybe yourself. I call em as I see em. Once I posted to you that your delivery was what was hard to take and how you were coming across was not exactly what I thought you meant to come across as.....you continued to post the same way which only leads me and others to think that you are exactly as your posts read. All the tests in the world, all the jokes in the world do not change facts. Obviously, your tests are coverups and don't fool anyone....

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

[quote=Kelliiii;3029118]What gives her the right? The right to voice her opinion about you...?


Haven't you ever heard the old saying "sticks and stones, can break your bones....?" I don't understand why you are so affected by what some strangers say about you? I CAN TURN THAT RIGHT BACK AROUND ON THE PEOPLE WHO RESORT TO NAME CALLING!!!
Calling Ted Kennedy a bad Catholic is not the same as calling YOU a bigot or a racist, etc... I made a statement backed up by Catholic doctine and stated my opinion on here. THat's what we are supposed to be doing-NOT calling people derogatory names. Also, Ted Kennedy is a public figure who has made his stance on issues perfectly clear.
If you haven't seen people calling me names then you can't read!!!! I don't think disgusting, racist, bigot, homophobe, ignorant and demented are on anyones list of neutral terms or compliments!!!
Yes, I write very sarcastically. And yes I do leave open ended statements, etc.. but I don't think that's as offensive as out and out name calling. I think you are mature enough to see the difference. If not, maybe you can talk to an English teacher! Yes, that is sarcasm. However, was that statement the same as calling you IGNORANT OR STUPID? Not in my book .

[quote=kathytheshopper;3029120]
For the record, I happened to teach English (both Creative Writing and as a Second Language - at the university level) before I entered the corp world several years ago....and trust me, you do not write sarcastically. The "voice" you have in type is very different than what you think you putting down.

Secondly you called Ted Kennedy a bad catholic because he voted pro-choice and not anti-abortion. That implies that anyone who would take that stance is also a bad catholic....and I would fall into that category. So, based on my above post, you made a generalization about a group of people, and I happened to fall into it....which, by your "playground" terms...would be name calling....because in my book, questioning someone's religious principles or relationship to their church is no different than the names you've been called (bigot, homophobe, etc).

Again...this is the sandbox. Don't like it, get out.

__________________
I'm the kind of woman when my feet hit the floor in each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, she's up."

[quote=Kelliiii;3029127]And who cares about what I call Ted Kennedy anyway!!!!! And if you ask a conservative priest they would state that his votes and/or position on being pro-choice IS being a bad Catholic. He is a public figure who aligns himself with the church and continually opposes it's teaching. Check out Priests for Life. However, calling someone a bad Catholic for a stance as a public figure that goes against Catholic Doctrine is not an outrageous thing to do. I would do the same thing if I saw an Hasidic (sp) Jew who is a public figure eating a full course pork dinner on one plate mixing the different types of food repeatedly. I would say he was being a bad Jew. Not a bad PERSON but a bad Jew. Doesn't make me a bigot. And if a Muslim women took off her burka and went swimming in a bikini I would also think she's not being a very good Muslim!!! I thnk if you are offended by a poster stating someone who votes pro-choice repeatedly is a bad Catholic maybe that is your conscience trying to reach out to you.
You can't possibly equate out and out name calling with generalizations can you?????? I hope not! What is my writing type if not sarcastic? I use "playground" terms but calling people bigots, racists, etc... is OK?
So let me get this straight - If I disagree with someone on here I should just resort to calling them names instead of trying to explain things or use generalizations? Seens to me that is how all of you see things since none of you can find a post where I personally attacked any of you. I thought children got time outs for calling people names? Bullys do that too last I heard.

Brother, your panties are in a knot, aren't they? You can dish it out but you can't take it can you? Reread all your posts and see where someone might think you are a bigot, or a mean spirited person. Perhaps they might even consider you a racist. Remember, it has been your words that have brought someone to this conclusion about you, not words someone other than you printed here. They were your words, I read, that you posted from the beginning which painted a picture of you. Someone posted on here once that during debates, they learned a lot about people by what they posted. Everyone does. What do your posts say about you?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

you know that you are wasting your energy, right? Until someone gets their A$$ handed to them in real life because of their ignorant, rude, racist, mean or hateful words--they will not know that they are "that" person. And even then, it's iffy. A narcissitic person will always believe that it's the other person who is the issue or the problem. Borderline Personality Disorder is a mental health diagnosis that I think fits a particular poster or two here...be that what it may; You, I and everyone else can talk until we're blue in the freaking face, but nothing will get through to some people.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Thanks, Marilyn. I hear you. Hope springs eternal. But you are so right. I have said all I can say about it and the message keeps getting missed.

Time to move on.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Ok that's toooooo freakin' funny!!!!!!d
I will never get my you know what handed to me. Haven't in 52 years. No reason for anyone to do that.
Funny, my ex boyfriend (African American) and I debated race quite often but never thought of me as a racist.
Yep, my form of writing COULD lead people to think a certain way if they aer PREDISPOSED to read things into peoples statements in such ways.
I'm still waiting for quotes of my name calling that justify the names hurled at me. But don't worry, I'm not holding my breath because you won't find any. You can only come up with reading things into what I say, etc... to justify your behavior of calling me names.
With my ADHD son I have been to counseling with him for years and years and guess what???? I am sane, not any of the mental illnesses you are "hinting" at!!!! Goofy and silly, but sane!!!

Well, if that's what you choose to believe about yourself, then fine. Have fun w/ it.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Having been to counseling w/ a child, does not mean you are sane. To determine sanity YOU would have to go through some pretty extensive testing, but you know that already.. Oh and FYI, being diagnosed with a mental illness does not equal being insane. Lots and lots of people have mental illness diagnosis and are not insane--just ill.

And honestly you can say whatever you want on here as to your life, and we'd never know. If your happy, content and satisfied with the person you are---then you go with your bad self girl. Now, I've said all I'm going to say. Frankly, you are but a gnat in my universe---annoying, but in the grand scheme of things, not anything that I can't just swat away and forget

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Still, no one has come up with any posts.......................

I've resisted posting in this thread, and it really hasn't been difficult to do. It's not a very inviting place to 'be'.

I understand where Kathy is coming from. I understand her logic. She's stating cold hard facts, but without any feeling of sadness about them or explanation for them that would give an indication of her heart. We don't know her, so if someone already doesn't care for her because they have opposing politics, it's easy to read something into her posts and the reason she chooses to mention any particular given set of facts.

The most glaring example is the fact that she chose to highlight the fact that there is a disproportionate number of black criminals in her area, and that as the black population grows the problem worsens.

If that's a fact, it's a fact. Being aware of the fact doesn't make her a racist.

When she was accused of being a racist, she did what I'd assume is pretty much the only way to try to defend her own honor - explaining that no, on a personal level, she chooses people of different races as friends and romantic interests, and that where *people* are concerned, race isn't an issue, but she she looks at the *demographics*, it's evident that something is amiss within that demographic in her community. And the demographic just so happens to be defined by race.

I am guessing that the demographic also has a strong correlation with poverty and a 'hang together' mentality. I heard a speech Michele Obama gave to a college audience (North Carolina, perhaps?) where she was telling students of both races (I gathered) that they don't associate with one another and really chastising them for not taking advantage of the opportunity to experience the fullness of the diversity within the college's population. What she was noticing happens not just in the college setting, but within communities. Where I live, if you see a hispanic family having supper with others, the 'others' are highly likely to be hispanic. Same with white people. Interestingly, this doesn't seem to be true for the very small Asian population in my town. You see Asian kids intermingling with the white kids and rarely see a group of *just* Asian kids from more than one family. I have no explanation for this - it's just something I observe.

The vast majority of crime in my location is committed by white people. I say "vast"... which is a bad term because there is very little crime here. What crime we do have, by and large, is committed by white people from families that seem to have a history of drug involvement. I think it's the drugs that lead to the crime - not the fact that they're white.

And I'll bet in Kathy's are the influx of black citizens who are involved in criminal behavior are simply examples of the fact that 1) groups tend to 'hang' with those they perceive to be most like them (and race is one of the traits people *perceive* as a cultural commonality) and that the particular generic group of black citizens moving in happen to be more poverty-stricken and/or more likely to have families with histories of drug use.

There are populations of white people in America with similar issues - poverty and drugs. They just so happen to *not* be moving to Kathy's area as a *group*, generally gravitating towards an area of town and making a negative name for themselves.

Kathy has an awareness that the trait she *knows* those criminals share is their race. You can't look at someone and know their income level or family background or whether they do drugs. But you can see race or see a name and identify (with relative certainty) the race of the person bearing that name.

She didn't attribute the crime to the color of their skin. She *did* however notice a similarity in the criminals. The fact that a disproportionate number of the criminals are coming from a specific, new-to-town microcosm of the population no doubt reflects negatively on all who are part of that microcosm.

That's extremely unfortunate, because the other 95% of those within the demographic don't deserve to be painted with the same brush.

I think it's very unfortunate that Kathy is being put right up there with KKK members. I don't see her as actively seeking to do harm to people because of their race. I don't see her as wanting anyone to be denied rights because of their race or to be denied access to the community. She doesn't seem to pro-actively *attempt* to undermine the black race. She has simply observed a problem and it frustrtates her and she noticed that the criminals come from the same demographic.

*Noticing* it is much, much different than lynching someone in the middle of the night or dragging someone behind a pickup truck until they were dead. THOSE are racists, bigots, and dangerous criminals. Kathy... not so much. And the only defense she can really offer up is the fact that she treats *people* as *people* in her life, and her relationships are colorblind.

Obama gave a speech on Father's Day to a black audience, chastising them for the fatherlessness within the black community, and pointing out that it leads to crime and other negative outcomes. I honestly don't know if this is a situation like with the "N" word, where it's acceptable for those within the community to acknowledge it but those outside the community can't.

I'd venture a guess that most all of the people down in our local jail who give our local police trouble are white.

I'd venture a guess that if you went to our school and asked the teachers who tends to cause them the most problems and you'll be told divorced parents and hispanic kids. Why? The divorced parents make communication and classroom discipline plans extremely difficult ad the hispanic kids can't speak the language and are only likely to be in our local system for an average of three months before they move on. What's a teacher supposed to do with that?

Is it *racist* of me to be aware of that? Or am I simply noticing a fact - that a particular demographic of people who tend to stick together (as Michele Obama noted that people tend to do) tends to be non-commital to our community in a way that taxes our educational resources and shortchanges those who live here? It *is* a fact.

It's also true that some of my dearest friends in my life have been hispanic. And that if you walked into a classroom in my town, despite their level of income and the fact that many of their clothes come from garage sales (I know this because I can guarantee if you have a garage sale your first 50 customers will be hispanic families all shopping for clothes together), they will be THE best-dressed kids in the room, hands down. The white kids - my own included - look like slobs in comparison to those adorable little hispanic girls in their almost elegant little dresses. Unless you're a 'cool' white kid you probably don't come close to touching the 'best dressed' category. Does that make me racist or bigoted for recognizing that our white kids look sloppy?

I realize this is extremely long. I tend to do that, but in this case, it's because it's such a complex and touchy subjec that - as Kathy is finding out - to throw something out there without offering more than just the facts can really backfire and create an impression that may not be what one wants to create.

I'm sorry that what's happened is a lot of name-calling and yelling and screaming and ganging up on one poster.

I think it's unfortunate that the response to Kathy's 'facts' wasn't a pointed, "What do you think is the reason for all this black crime in your area? Surely you don't think that skin color MAKES you a criminal!" Rather than trying to draw her out and get a level deeper and invite her to offer up her beliefs about *why* that fact appears to be true in her community, the grenades began flying.

I also assume she probably *does* have a fine life. It's very easy to let an online conversation become a distraction and for things to turn shrill - especially if it feels like you've been misunderstood and are being tried and sentenced and everything you try to offer up as proof that the *personal* attacks don't have merit becomes fodder for more ridicule.

My goal is to *not* ever let a message board have that kind of an impact on me. Devinsmom mentioned on the Cafe' that her frustration with cell phone users is that they're not living in their reality - their brain is across town with another person despite the fact that they are standing in the middle of the baking aisle in WalMart and nobody can get around them because they're lost in conversation and not in the *moment* of shopping (I made the WalMart part up - she didn't say that! ). That same thing can happen with the internet. You become so frustrated and overwhelmed with trying to get the strangers in cyberspace to *understand* your position and your heart that you say all the wrong things to a group that has developed a mob mentality against you.

I really think that's what's happening here, and would encourage everyone to just step away for a few days, not presume or accuse anyone *personally* of holding anything in their hearts that may not be there.

Mercy is the most difficult to offer up to those with whom you disagree the most vehemently, but if you can manage it, I think it makes you a bigger, better soul.

Thank you wowitsdark. You are my hero!!!
I backed up my crime/race comments with FACTS but that doesn't seem to make a difference to some people. What you wrote is PERFECT!!!! So much better than what I have been trying to express. Thank you so much!!!!!
PS There is most definitely a mob mentality towards me. I stayed off her for awhile and have just recently started posting regularly again. Same old attacks as last time........pretty much the same people too! lol lol lol

Kathy, I think your 'problem' (not really the best word, but the one I can come up with!) is that you are looking at true facts and statistics without offering up a palatable belief about *why* a set of unfortunate truths happen to be true.

I mentioned in my other post that the sloppiest dressers in our school system are white kids. If I were to read on a community message board a post by a nameless person saying, "What's up with the slackers at the public school? 94% of the kids sent home to change clothes because they were inappropriate were WHITE!" I'd probably think the person had something against white people because *that* was the factor they chose to attribute the less-than-stellar behavior to.

I'd say it's also likely that those same kids were from single parent homes in the lower income bracket.

If someone had mentioned, "What's up with all these divorced and never-married parents sending their kids to school looking tacky?" or "Do those parents not know that WalMart carries MODEST clothes at a CHEAP price that won't get their kids sent home?!" and mentioned the problem in conjunction with a demograpihc trait, well... it gives the impression that they're hyperfocused on the *trait* and that they walk around all uptight and angry about people who posess that trait.

Perhaps what has happened is that people from the north side (or whatever side you said) of your city began moving out because prices of homes that are a 'step up' have recently dropped, allowing them to 'move up.' The result is a lot of empty, inexpensive housing where those people *used* to live. People in Chicago looking to relocate - people who are of lesser income - have realized they can move there for a good price... and because of the 'hang together' factor, generally it's people from the black culture who are taking up residence in that area... but the root of the problem isn't the *color* of the skin of the new residents. It's that they come from rough backgrounds and areas of Chicago where crime is more commonplace.

Housing market influences created the problem, not race... but race was the element you *mentioned* as the common thread. You're probably RIGHT that it's a fact. But without an explanation about why that's what you *noticed*... an impression is created that may not be accurate.

How her entire post about racism came up was that truble posted about Toby Keith saying something about the way Borack Obama spoke and how it wasn't black enough and suddenly, Kathy posts something about the crime rate going up in her town because of a certain group of people with obviously AA names. It wasn't a necessary comment germane to the thread.

Her comments about being a homophobe were based on her crass comment (test) concerning which parts go into which parts which somehow made her argument that gay marraige was wrong.

The self righteous comments by her during the Kennedy posts re:his brain tumor show me less compassion than I typically would believe that someone who is a follower of Christ would show.

This is what is called a pattern. It makes every post posted by her suspect and the fact that she can post something outrageous and call it a "test" of everyone to see if we would jump on her for it is the silliest thing I have ever read. Why do the rest of us need tests? Why can't Kathy post and then take whatever comes of it like the rest of the world. If she truly believes something she posts, why would it have to be a test and then she have a come apart because people get all over her about it.

I think it would be different if it was just one or two people who notice this but I think there are more than one person. From the beginning, I was ready to give her the benefit of the doubt. Others have told her how she is coming across, her excuse that she is sarcastic doesn't cut it and if she posts like she has, better be prepared to take the flack because it is coming and it does no good to claim "persecution" or "I don't understand why people jump on me" or "this was a test and you guys failed".

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

As for presenting the facts to back up her claims...here are the direct quotes from the post about Toby Keith:


"Be careful about the racist word. In our town the crime rate has soared which matches the influx of "south side Chicgoans" moving here. The town has a 4% African American population (quickly rising) but fill 36% of the jail space. And no, it's not racial profiling. About everyday there's an arrest of a Latrel or Kanesha for some crime-robbery, mugging, etc... There's a "ghetto" area developing in a certain part of town...Now would you call me a racist? It must sound like I am but the facts tell the truth here.
I don't know anything about Toby Keith. I know things can be taken out of context. I just hate to see the racist term flung so easily."



"You guys are all a riot!!!!!! And yes it was a test but being the liberal minded person you are you will of course never believe it if it doesn't follow along with want you WANT to believe.
Facts are facts sweeties!!! in the last week here we had three black people stealing purses, a young black man robbing a gas station and a taxi driver exposing himself. ALL IN ONE WEEK. Like I stated the population is less than 4%. It DOES NOT make someone a racist to point out FACTS. There has been a DRASTIC increase in crime here, predominately black, and mostly do to an influx from Chicago. It is what it is. Facts are facts. Wait, mabye libs dont' like facts-just like to name call and assume the worst.
Do you realize how easily you take the bait? Trolling, Trolling, over the ocean blue!"


WHATEVER!!! lol What I have learned on here, if you call it trolling, I have learned from you and several other posters! I have asked for one thread that I started to be closed once when it went way past the limit and it was done BECAUSE OF THE RULES POSTED ON HERE. But, as usual, you folks don't listen to reason. Yes, that one post was a test. Funny how all this stuff must bother you A LOT since you all remember every little thing aboiut me and what I post. Funny!!!

Populatin in this town is 87% white, 4% black. Jail population is 36% black. That is not racism. That is a fact. WHen enough Tyrells and Tanisha's show up with their pics in the paper regularly getting arrested for this and that it doesn't take too much of a brain to figure out the rise in crime around here.
A + B = C. It could be from proverty or drugs or bad educations or whatever but the facts are the facts.
The facts are from the official state records online. I do trust this soucre. "


"Yes, I do no how many white people commited similar crimes that week-NONE. These are actual arrest records, with names in the paper, court cases online. I didn't make this up. THey are the facts.
The police aren't profiling the bank robbers on the secuity cameras, the victims descriptions and the arrests made from evidence and victim identification. How in the world could that be considered profiling???? There crimes are usually commited with witnessess. Not I suppose you could assume all the victims in this town have banded together and lied about the perpetrators but I think it's more likely to believe the victims and the outcome of the cases.
The percentage of crime in this county has increased proportionally to the influx of a certain race of people. That is backed up by statistics. That's not racism. It's FACT"



Not a single white person commited any crimes that week....only AA. I can't imagine where she lives but I would have to have a link from the government agency that she said she got this info from....that would be proof of what she has posted.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

wowitsdark you have summed up many things in a succint manner. Your communication and writing skills are exemplary and I think you could/would be a published author on some level. You do all of this without trying to make yourself an expert at everything.

This is another case of mc ignoring the stated rop and allowing gourp/mob action. Some posters are allowed to post as they wish. In the rop, posters are (supposedly) not to be attacked and yet there have been layers and layers of personal attacks and name calling.

The mob action was disgraceful and unwarranted by those involved.

dl

I can imagine where she lives -- in a fantasy world.

Don't forget her exhortation to fly the Confederate flag.

I haven't commented on this thread because, frankly, she's not worth our time. There will always be people like her who make themselves feel better by saying hateful things about people that are different from her in race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Just not worth your attention.

I'm so happy for you that your son is home safely!

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

Thanks, truble. He is home safely and will be getting married in a few weeks. He is a great kid and we are so proud of him.

I forgot about the Confederate flag item......

Geesh.

There hasn't been any mob mentality here. I think it is more of a case of when you post an inflamatory item on a public board read by many people, if ten people post about it, you can't call it mob mentality. I believe that everyone who posted about were offended by her posts and many more who didn't feel offended felt it wouldn't make any difference and wouldn't be worth their time to point out what was obvious.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

I didn't say mob mentality. I said mob/group action. There is always more safety in numbers and in this case, those involved continually fed off of each other.

Agreed, I do think some don't post, but not for the reasons you stated. They see how a few can attack and get away with it and don't care to have it turned on them.

dl

Nah, I don't really think it is that in this case.....I think that KTS had to know that what she has been posting was inflammatory and it was bound to be controversial and garner some attention. That is why she posts it. much the same way PUM posted stuff, only KTS has the capability to be nice (ie some of the posts she posts on the Cafe where she is praying for someone etc or is kind to someone) but for some reason, the things she posts here are inflamatory and then when called on them, she backs up and claims they are tests for us....who needs a test on MC?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

Not EVERYONE has the same feelings concerning the Confederate flag.
You do not have to be a KKK memeber or hate blacks, etc to want to have the right to fly that flag.
The Confederate flag means DIFFERENT things to different groups of people.

Why spend the time on your case against KTS when you could be celebrating with your family? Why not let it go. Enjoy your time with your son! Peace to you, and congratulations on having your son home safely.

__________________
"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

I stay away from all "debates" here on MC. But, I must say this thread, and many others like it, remind me of my pre-teenage years. Grown woman going back and forth slinging mud & verbally attacking each other. Not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular. Don't many of you have better things to do than to post on a board to people you don't really know? Seems that many people here need to get the last word in or to always be right. Makes a person wonder what is going on in your everyday lives to have to participate in this type of behavior on a regular basis.

Trust me, I have been celebrating my son's homecoming but I can multitask.....and I thank you for your concern. My boy has been risking his life for the second time so that everyone can enjoy freedom and to break down the walls of predjudice and bigotry in this world. He believes that if you can change one person's thinking today, then tomorrow, it will be passed by that person to someone else and you have touched two and so on and so on. I taught him that everyone is worthy. Even those we don't agree with.....you just try and point out to them and hope they can change their minds or at least see the other side of a topic. And how to point it out without being a total a**. It is not my job to change KTS mind but I thought that since she is so proud of her "Chrisitanity" and her "Catholic" upbringing, that I thought she might not know how she is coming across to people who are Christians or 'Catholics or those who might be interested in becoming a Christian.

Everyone hates hypocrits. KTS is quick to point out the flaws in "Liberal" thinking, the flaws in pro choice, the flaws in gay marraige which is of course, her right to do so, but it is also my right to point out the flaws in her argument especially since they seem to be so out there sometimes. But maybe, this whole thing is another test.

press-citizen.com | Arrests

press-citizen.com | Salaries 2008

The above is the arrest record for the last year or so and I couldn't see one Latrell or Kenesha.....wonder why? Would this be the "facts" that KTS posted?

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

So does a swastika. Do you think we should encourage people to display it?

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

People should have free choice to display symbols/flags, etc that represent some meaning for them.

OK, so your answer is yes that you would not object to the display of a swastika by a private person. What about by a state? My original comment wasn't about private individuals displaying the Confederate flag -- it was about a state doing it. And in, response, shopper exhorted "Fly that flag baby!!" Displaying a flag that symbolized hatred to many of the state's citizens is ok with you? Would displaying the swastika on City Hall in NYC be alright with you? The Confederate flag is no less a symbol of hatred to many than the swastika is.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

I have no problem with a state flying the Confederate flag IF that is what the majority of the people of that state want. I do not have a problem with a swastika on a City Hall building if that is what the people there want.
I do have a problem at the FEDERAL (not state) level of money being spent on any symbols other than the US flag,etc.

The swastika symbol has been in existence for over 3000 thousand years. It does not mean hated to everyone nor does a Confederate flag. Just because it "might" offend some does not mean it should be discard.

So, to clarify what I *think* you're saying: a state displaying symbols which are considered emblems of hatred by many is ok as long as a majority of the people at the state level are in agreement with it. Is that an accurate restatement of what you said?

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

People in that state should vote on it ..if it is what most what ..then so be it.
Once again not EVERYONE considers the swastika or Confederate flag or other things to mean hate.

No, not everyone. But most people do. I live in the former Capital of the Confederacy and even here people recognize it as a symbol of hatred and divisiveness. No one eager to unite this shattered country would suggest flying that flag for any reason. And, IMO, anyone who eagerly advocates that the Confederal flag be flown over the state capitol of any state, much less a state with a population distribution like South Carolina's, is showing either complete ignorance of the meaning of the flag or total indifference to it. If you know what that flag means to a population and you nonetheless yell "Fly that flag, baby!!," sorry, in my book you're a sick puppy. It's no different than spray painting a swatsika on a synogogue.

__________________

Reading is Fundamental.

OK--how could anyone NOT consider the swastika a sign of hate?
Native American culture does use/has used a reverse swastika in some of their petroglyphs, symbols, but it is reverse of the swastika...

Ahhh...the Confederate Flag....I see you're in Virginia, so you are well aware of the symbolism of the Confederate flag. I don't think everyone thinks it means hate, but it surely represents a time in our history that was less than stellar. That flag is associated now with bigotted rednecks--sorry that's just the way it is. If a person wants to fly that flag on their private property I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think it should represent a state/fly over any state capitol. The South is no longer it's own sovereign union--it's part of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

(and please--I was born and raised in the South. I'm well aware of Southern history and what the Confederate flag stands for.)

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The swastika for thousands of years has been a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, to name a few.
I do live in Virginia but not always.

For all you Southern History buffs!.......... What does the confederate flag stand for in your eyes.


I am just looking for other imputs.

__________________
"Madison AnnMarie " 6/13/2008

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=8652d1ea.pbr

http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=adbcb309.pbr

from religiousfacts.com

The swastika (Sanskrit svastika, "all is well") is a cross with four arms of equal length, with the ends of each arm bent at a right angle. Sometimes dots are added between each arm.

The swastika is an ancient symbol found worldwide, but it is especially common in India. It can be seen in the art of the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Celts, Native Americans, and Persians as well Hindus, Jains and Buddhists.

The swastika's Indian name comes the Sanskrit word svasti, meaning good fortune, luck and well being.

In Hinduism, the right-hand (clockwise) swastika is a symbol of the sun and the god Vishnu, while the left-hand (counterclockwise) swastika represents Kali and magic. The Buddhist swastika is almost always clockwise, while the swastika adopted by the Nazis (many of whom had occult interests) is counterclockwise.

And to answer Irishblonde: While I understand that the Civil War was not necessarily a war strictly about slaves; others may not. While the Confederate flag initially stood as a symbol of the State within the Confederacy, it has been adultered by biggoted and hateful people over the years. Unfortunately, it's the flag that the KKK used as their symbol--which the KKK is one of the ultimate groups of hate mongers. White supremacists use the Confederat flag to represent themselves (as well as the swastika).
Some people can see past that for the actual pure history of the flag, and don't have an issue with the flag. I, however, hate to see anyone flying "that" flag because of all the bad associated with it.

__________________
Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I live in South Carolina, the state where the Confederate flag is flown on cars, on shirts on hats and once at the state capitol building. My high schooler has asked what the flag means and has been told "Southern Pride" He wonders why no person of color has the "Southern Pride" flag flying on his house, car, on his shirt or hat. Does it mean, the person of color has no pride in where he lives?

The flag is a symbol of an era past. The South will rise again! they say. Fly your colors is a common saying here amongst the natives of South Carolina.

It is just a symbol of a time of hatred just as much as the swastika was/is.

__________________
GO NAVY WRESTLING!!BEAT ARMY!!!
RJB 3/18/60 - 5/22/04
We miss you, sweet brother
God Bless the USA!!!!! Praying for my Youngster son at United States Naval Academy, class of 2014!!

http://mylifeundertheabaya.blogspot.com/

ROFLOL!!!! And yet, here you are, rolling around in the same mud.

__________________
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

If I'm not worth your time why are you one of the "mob mentality members" that always pounce on me????
I believe that sexual orientation comment was made after many posts debating gay marriage. I think it had to do with someone wanting to know why it's not the same as hetero marriage and I finally got so frustrated that I made that comment. The comment was crass but also true. If you don't like what I say IGNORE me. YOu just said that there will always be people who say hateful things.....Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black????? YOU justify namecalling if YOU think it warrants it.