Just heard it on FOX news late Friday night (actually Saturday morning).

Excellent choice

From the things I have heard that Joe Biden said about BO, I am shocked. Joe Biden has said that he does not believe BO is ready to lead, or something to that effect.

WOW!!!

Can't wait to see who McCain picks.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I'm not at all surprised that Biden is the pick.

As far as McCain's pick goes, Most people are betting on Romney. McCain attacked Romney pretty hard during the primaries.

Here are some of Biden's comments regarding Obama and McCain. BTW - this is a McCain ad that aired today

John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

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It will be interesting to see how the democrats 'wag the dog' on this one! Biden has really said a lot of negatives about Obama. Lots of cleanup to do, for sure!!

I've always felt like Biden's favorite person is, well... Biden.

My first awareness of him was when he was grilling Anita Hill about Clarance Thomas. I seem to remember him pontificating about himself a lot, taking nearly all of his allotted question time to tell stories about himself and finally wrapping up with a question.

Excellent choice. I'm not remotely worried about the things Biden said about Obama a year ago -- everyone says stuff like that in a primary.

Biden is perfect.

And if McCain picks plastic man Romney -- woo hoo, there's some nasty stuff they said about each other, so it just proves my point. I would love to see the plastic man in second place on McCain's ticket!

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Reading is Fundamental.

I'll say it.

He should've picked Hilary.

Yes - I was still holding out hope...

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"The errors of faith are better than the best thoughts of unbelief." - Thomas Russell

HRC's husband destroyed any chance she had of getting the VP slot with his own petulant behavior, I'm afraid.

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Reading is Fundamental.

McCain needs an ad coupling Biden saying BO isn't ready to lead with BO's near slip in the Saddleback forum when he said the reason he wouldn't have chosen Clarance Thomas for the Supreme Court was because he didn't have enough exp... um....

I'm convinced, boys. I'm convinced.

Boy, time hasn't been kind to the Original Plastic Man, has it? Looks like it's time for a little more organic produce and a lot less processed mac and cheese.

Yes, but Biden said he would be honored to run with or against McCain. I don't think it paints a pretty picture for Obama.

Should be interesting once McCain picks his VP.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

As long as we're sharing pics, here's one of Grampy looking like he just got dropped off by the retirement community bus to do some grocery shopping.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

The quote in the ad came from the August 2, 2005, Daily Show when Senator Biden was talking about the possibility of running in 2008. The quote about running with Senator McCain is taken somewhat out of context as he also referred to asking Senator McCain to run with Senator Kerry in 2004.


Again, this conversation happened 3 years ago before Senator McCain lost all his sense and hitched himself to the Bush/Cheney wagon.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

And I didnt think Obama had a sense of humor!!!!!!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Here's our new President as Obama says........YouTube - The Drunk: Joe Biden drunk singing gaffe Obama vice president

TOO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!

Sherri

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"It isn't that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

Speaking of a sense of humor -- whatever were those guys doing before they passed out??!!

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Exactly. Not many people think the McCain of even two years ago is the McCain of today. He's whored himself out to the right wing for his own gain. There's nothing maverick about kowtowing to the neocon line.

It hasn't been very long since Lieberman was on the Democratic ticket and now he's up McCain's rear and helping him keep factions straight. Many Dems would like to burn him at the stake for his behavior. People change.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I actually don't think that McCain was ever a maverick. He's voted straight conservative ever since he's been in the senate.

Being a neocon is not something new for him. If you'll read some of his writings, he has always been one. In fact, he's probably more of a neocom than Cheney.

Me too!

And since I got a pop up telling my message was too short, I am adding this to make sure it's long enough.

I have always heard that Hillary was not interested in the job. Sge turned him down.

That may be but I can't for the life of my figure out why it was not announced. It would make it easier for those of us who supported her to move on if we knew that she had at least been asked. I said right from the beginning that she should be asked and she should, if she wanted to, decline.

Coming in second place doesn't give you the right to the VP slot. HRC lost, I'm glad she lost, and I'm very, very glad she's not going to be VP.

While I'm certainly not interested in seeing the BO/JB Combo in the WH, I don't think that would've been in BO's best interest. Had he asked her and been turned down then by default the person who ended up in his VP Candidate slot would've been known to be "second choice". That's not great Page Ranking.

It also would have set him up for a lot of distracting comparisons between the strengths/weaknesses of the one he *wanted* (Hil) and the one he *got* (Joe) and discussion about whether his #2 pick could compensate for his self-perceived weaknesses. It seems that's how people pick their VP's - they assess themselves, figure out which demographics they can't really draw, and choose a VP who will appeal to them. All the talk shows would've been saying, "He wanted Hillary, probably because she's strong on ________, but instead he's having to settle for Biden, who doesn't have that particular focus."

I just don't think a candidate would want to set himself up for that in order to appease the fans of the runner-up.

[quote=wowitsdark;3035176
It also would have set him up for a lot of distracting comparisons between the strengths/weaknesses of the one he *wanted* (Hil) and the one he *got* (Joe) and discussion about whether his #2 pick could compensate for his self-perceived weaknesses. It seems that's how people pick their VP's - they assess themselves, figure out which demographics they can't really draw, and choose a VP who will appeal to them. All the talk shows would've been saying, "He wanted Hillary, probably because she's strong on ________, but instead he's having to settle for Biden, who doesn't have that particular focus."

I just don't think a candidate would want to set himself up for that in order to appease the fans of the runner-up.[/QUOTE]


If he wants the votes of many of her voters, he should have at least given it lip service. I also think, had he asked her, the talking heads might have been saying things along the line of, "He doesn't want Hillary but in an effort to bring the party together and to bring back some of her people who have decided to vote elsewhere, he has offered her the VP spot." And appeasing runner-ups has happened in the past and often with success.

And if she refused, which she should have, I think Biden would have understood the politics of it and not been insulted.

I like Biden but I wonder if his personality will overshadow Obama's.

I love this picture. Have you got any more? If I could blow it up, I could post it in my front yard and drive my neighbors even crazier than they are. I could even make it into a campaign button.

I am very very disappointed that BO did not at least offer the job and give her a chance to RESPECTFULLY decline. I am really really sick and tired of people holding Hillary responsible for Bill's actions and vice versa (although I am strong supporter of Bill as a political representative although not a moral one). I can deal with Biden as the VP and will certainly vote for the ticket, but really think it is a sad sad way that HRC was disrespected. And, it definitely will cost some votes for BO because of that disrespect.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

You know what I'm sick of? HRC supporters thinking that BHO supporters have to kiss her @ss. She behaved terribly at many times during the primaries and WJC was worse. Do you think, had she won, she would have felt obligated to offer the VP slot to Obama? Heck, no.

If she were on the ticket, I think some of BHO supporters would have walked away. This isn't about respect for HRC, but her and her husband's blatant disrespect for BHO during the primaries.

I believe that HRC very well may have offered the VP position to BO had she been the candidate. Do I think she would have felt OBLIGATED to do so...NO....but she would have realized the strong ticket that this would have made. I do not think that HRC was any more vocal in her BO criticisms than he was of her....they both chose to take the low road at points and they both have to live with those decisions. But, because I truly believe that this is a weaker ticket now for BO, I will work even harder to make sure that McCain does not win the White House.

By the way, see how the ticket and the Party use the Clinton's at the convention next week.....kind of hypcritical in my opinion, but they both want the Dems to be successful so will do their part and people will then see for themselves what they bring to the Party.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

And I'm sick of the Obama people that feel he is the annointed one. He won the nomination but he's not getting elected without her people and he seems to be doing nothing to bring them over to his side. In fact he seems to be trying to alienate them further. Since when is asking someone to be considered as VP kissing ass? She is as qualified as anyone else for that position. She ran a good campaign. She got millions of votes. Votes that he needs. His poll numbers are dropping. I expect he'll get a bump after the convention, but so will McCain, unless he falls asleep during his speech or forgets to make it. Joe Biden at least brings some warmth and humor to the ticket. He may help more than most VP nominees have in the past. As for OHB, he may be cutting off his nose to spite his face by ignoring her.

The BHO supporters might have walked if she had gotten the nod, but I doubt they would vote Republican. More than likely they will just stay home and I can't say that's true for the Hillary supporters. About a quarter of them, at this point seem to be voting Republican and I don't think many will stay home on election day.

I've always said I would vote for whichever Dem got the nod but it gets harder and harder to convince myself to do it. And it's mainly because of people like you. We should be on the same side but your side obviously doesn't want or need my side.

Anyone know what Nader is up to these days?

I agree with truble. I think the Clinton's went into the primary thinking her nomination was in the bag and when she got trounced badly in a number of States, it was too late. She wasn't my first or second choice but I would have voted for her had she won the nomination. IMO I don't think she would have offered the VP slot to Senator Obama. As an Obama supporter I'm not so sure I would have wanted him to accept even if it were offered -- her candidacy was a republican dream and I believe she would have been soundly beaten.

The Clinton participation in the convention means little to me -- I hope to be proven wrong but I expect her address will be lukewarm at best and I expect even less from President Clinton when he speaks. I defended them for years during the 90's and it's hard for me to put into words how disappointed I am in both of them. She ran a terrible campaign and he's acting like a 6 year old.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Wow! It's not often that I agree with you....
I'm a die-hard liberal, have voted Democrat the majority of my voting life---I will not be voting that way on this ballot. Whilst Obama may not be courting Hillary "fans" now, IF he gets elected, I bet that he'll be singing a different tune 4 years from now.

Quite frankly, Obama scares the living hell out of me. I don't trust that he has enough experience or enough knowledge to be an effective leader.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I agree 100% with Ana.

I'm just tired of hearing over and over and over and over how the election was stolen from her even though he fought for the position fairly. I'm tired of hearing how "we" don't respect her supporters. Well, does it matter? Again, "we" aren't running for president, Obama is. I'm just so sick of being told that I as one of his supporters am responsible for making Hillary's supporters happy and fired up.

I also am very very disappointed in both their behavior this past year. Especially after having defended both of them over and over and over.

HOPEFULLY we'll all vote together, but I am not banking on that fact, not with so many of the Clinton supporters swearing allegiance to McCain b/c he so embodies all Hillary stands for <insert heavy sarcasm here> . I'm personally sick of hearing about how we need to do more to bring her supporters to our side. Screw that. If you don't want to be a democrat, go vote for McCain and deal w/ the consequences if he gets it.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Oh, P.S. - Hilary still has $19 + Million in debt from her campaign. Where are her supporters when she most needs them? Puma, are you there??? No? I thought that Puma raised enough to retire her debt - did they donate it to McCain instead?

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

As I said in an earlier post, I will be voting the democratic ticket, but holding my nose while I do it. While I don't think that the ticket that has been put forth is the best that there is, I cannot see dealing with the same crap that we have had under Bush/Cheney for the last 8 years.

And, I have never stated that I believed that the election was stolen from HRC. I have stated both the candidates should be ashamed of themselves for digging into the dirty politics bag of tricks against each other. And, if you think that Obama doesn't need HRC supporters, you are very wrong. I don't think any HRC supporters need to have their @$$e$ kissed. But the continual bashing of both Clintons is not what is going to help bring the party's supporters under one roof.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

Neither is the continual bashing of Barack by her supporters.

However, I have soooo much more respect for you, who realizes that you hate the candidate but know that to vote republican is completely against what you stand for.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

You know what? Just as his preacher was a reflection on him, Obama's supporters are a reflection on him. You get more flies w/ sugar than vinegar, and "Barry's" supporters would do well to remember that.

I don't think McCain embodies all that Hillary stands for---but sadly I'd rather vote for him than Obama. Obama makes me nervous and queasy. As I have said, he scares me--more than McCain ever could.

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

I so far from hate Mr. Obama. I admire him and am very inspired by him as a speaker, but just do not think he is ready for the office of President YET. I don't believe that he was the best candidate, but that far from means that I hate him. That is where I think that some of the problems in all this lies. Just because some people do not agree and follow BO, his supporters seem to think that means we hate him. Never have I stated a hatred for him or his ideals. I just happen to believe there was a better candidate out there. Please do not label me a hater.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

I meant as a candidate, not as a person.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

This pretty much sums up my feelings. Well said.

As for Sen. Joe Biden, the more I see and learn about him, the more I think he is a great choice,

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@@@
l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

I personally, get tired of many Clinton supporters acting as though I'm speaking for Obama when I say something, or when I as an Obama supporter am being held up as a reason they decide they won't vote for him. As far as I know, I'm not the one being voted for, he is, and frankly, he is not responsible for the actions of his supporters.

Ok then. Vote for him. Just don't complain about the appointing of more conservative supreme court judges who want to take away Roe v Wade, don't complain anymore about the war, don't complain anymore about ANYTHING to do w/ the republicans if you choose to vote w/ them. Vote McCain and be happy about it and all the consequences that come w/ him winning.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

Besides feeling your candidate was disrespected because she wasn't asked to be VP, what exactly did Senator Obama do during the primaries to make you think he disrespected her -- I'm talking about words that actually came out of his mouth. I could list a number of remarks made by Senator Clinton and her husband which were, IMO, if not dishonest, certainly mean spirited. I can think of one time when Senator Obama made a less then polite remark to Senator Clinton and that was during a debate when he said something about "liking her well enough". If anyone can remember more instances of his disrespecting her please remind me.

Do we know for sure she wasn't asked to be on the VP list? I heard she was asked to be on the list but refused unless she was guranteed an offer of the vice presidency. I don't know if that's true or not ...

And Jaded -- I so agree with this:

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Oh, get off your high horse!
Whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to accept it or not--a politician's supporters do reflect back on the politician. So, if the supporters are constantly acting the fool and being abrasive, that is what others see. So many Obama supporters act as if he is the second coming! I was accosted on my break the other day by an Obama supporter. I politely told the person that I would be voting in the election and who I voted for irrelevant. And no, I didn't need any information about Barack's platform, thank you. I swear to God it was worse then an LDS missionary, Jehovah's Witness and Amway salesman rolled up into one. The person literally followed me into my office building, and attempted to get on the elevator so (and these are his words--not mine) he could "show me how wrong" I was, and how I was "dooming us all to Hell" if I didn't vote Obama. I finally had to threaten to call the police to have him removed from the building before he'd leave me alone. And this is not an isolated incident--it's an every day occurrence that I witness Obama supporters harassing people!

Be happy? Don't complain? Good God--I don't really want to vote Republican, but I just cannot bring myself to vote for a man who doesn't have the experience, the knowledge, the expertise or the personality to run a Fortune 500 corporation--much less all it takes to run our country!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

Jesus Christ then. No wonder I hate Hilary.


Oh, I see! There's someone holding a gun to your head, MAKING you vote republican. Shall I call the cops?

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

You should have reported the person who followed you into your office building. I've never seen a campaign worker this far out from election day handing stuff out on the streets -- they haven't even started mailings or telephone calls here yet.

Thinking about your last paragraph -- when was the last time we elected a President who had the knowledge, expertise or personality to run a Fortune 500 corporatiion? I can't think of one who had all of those attributes or frankly any President in the last 50 years who had even two of them. Nixon, no; Ford, no; Carter, no; Reagan, no; Bush, no although he may come the closest; Clinton, no although again he came close; Bush 2 heck no!! McCain and Obama are no different this time around then what we've had to pick from in the past. Governor Romney was a dream candidate if those are the prerequisites.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

Fox had hour-long specials on both McCain and Obama last week. I learned a lot about both of them that I didn't have a clue about. Interestingly, I thought the one about Obama seemed to have much more positive spin than the one about McCain. They spent a fair amount of time on the S&L scandal and the Keating Five and McCain's failed first marriage. With Obama, they talked a lot about his childhood, but spend perhaps the most time highlighting his community activism in Chicago. They interviewed people he had worked with and showed a job training center he helped open in a neighborhood that especially needed it. They were extremely appreciative of his work. They also discussed how it was through those connections that he came to work alongside Jeremiah Wright and eventually embrace Christianity. They also shared how he slept on the streets in a terrible neighborhood during his first few nights in - was it NYC or Chicago? Can't remember, just that he had noplace to stay and that's what he did.

If you were looking to decide which candidate to *like* the most and which had a 'came from nothing and made good of himself by his own initiative", Obama would've given you all the warm fuzzies you could possibly have stood.

I have to admit that I was a bit unsettled for a day or so after having seen the 2nd show - the one on McCain - and felt the contrast between the two of them. My politics are so far removed from B.O. it's not even funny, but the way his history was presented made me want to like him.

McCain was almost - but not quite - presented as a gold digger. I was reminded of Hillary in that he had only lived in Arizona six months when he ran for congress. Apparently he squashed a question by his opponant about that issue by saying, "I was a military brat as a kid and a military man as an adult. The longest I've lived anywhere was for five years and that was in a cell in Vietnam." (paraphrased, of course).

By Friday, though, I had come to realize something about the two of them separate and apart from my politics. McCain has had his fair share of screw-ups, that's for sure. But what I was struck by was that he has had a vast bank of experiences, and he's not afraid to just say straight up, "I really regret my decision to...." or "I used terrible judgment when I...." Obama, in something of a Clintonesque move, always wanted to explain *why* he did this or that in a way that made you understand him so that his less-stellar actions/decisions were softened. Like he was making excuses.

I was also struck by the fact that the people who are in a position to speak on Obama's behalf are *community* activists. They were truly smitten by him and that's a good thing, but I got the feeling he'd never really met a world leader - only studied them in law school. I got the feeling that his passion was helping the underprivlidged and disenfrachised, and while those are incredibly wonderful things... it takes a different skill set than being a *player* in a game of hardball with someone who has a button connected to a nuke.

I don't hate him as a candidate either, just think he was not the best or right choice. What I am seeing that bothers me is that if we don't strongly support the candidate, we are said to hate the candidate when that is not at all the case. I think that this alienation is not good for the party or the ticket or the election. The fact that we are being challenged because we have differences of opinion and being told we "hate" someone is scary and just not right. I have not talked to one HRC supporter who "hates" Mr. Obama as either a candidate or a person. Yet, we are being labelled as haters. The devisiveness could be devastating.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

No, jaded, I'm doing what I feel is the best in a really crappy situation. The lesser of two evils (so to speak). I don't like "your" candidate. I don't feel his the best candidate for the job. I think he's more "fluff" than substance.

I don't HATE any of the candidates that have run(ok, I take that back, Huckabee comes really close to being someone I hate--but I actually do know him)...I don't know them well enough on a personal level to hate them. I'm sorry that it offends you so much that I'm doing exactly what you are doing: Making a decision based on the information I have looked at, and to some extent my own personal feelings. I, like most people, hope the decision I make is the correct one.
But the difference between you and me (besides some obvious ones) is that I am not a zealot. I think in the end, we all hope that whoever wins does a good job. Regardless...I'm done w/ this argument/discussion. I have far to many things that I need to do to get ready for the work week and the start of school for my kids (on Wednesday---yippee!). You have yourself a wonderful night and a superb week to come!

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Mental that one, I'm telling you. ---Ron Weasley, "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets"

The upshot, IMO, is that if you claim you were an HRC supporter and now you're willing to vote for McCain, or not vote at all, you were supporting her based on her genitalia, not her issues. Because on the issues, there's not a whole lot of light between her and Obama. And on experience, she's got a few extra years in the U. S. Senate but less overall elected experience. So to say Obama's not ready, you have to concede that HRC wasn't ready, either.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I'M a zealot, but you're the one still mourning the legitimate loss of a candidate and swearing you will vote totally against what you say you believe in b/c of it? That's hilarious. Thank you for the early morning laugh time. I'm gonna have to share that one.

Enjoy getting ready for school. Maybe take a moment to get used to the idea of liking school prayer - I know a lot of republicans have argued for it in school.

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

I saw something on TV the other night that said how Obama does not own up to his wrongs. The example they sighted was that he continued to say how the surge was not working, even as he walked the streets of Iraq (hope I got that one right).

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

How is that statement wrong? There is no political reconciliation in Iraq. The middle class has not returned. Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed. Although there has been a significant decrease in violence, especially for our troops, I cannot look at the surge as having accomplished much at all towards healing Iraq.

He said the surge is not working because the surge IS NOT working. The purpose of the surge, according to the statements of GWB months ago, was to provide a more stable environment and reduce the violence so the Iraqi government can get up and running. In that, the surge is a complete failure. Not our military -- our military has done what they were asked to do. However, the stated purpose of the surge was to make room for the self-governance to take place and that has not happened.

It's not a flaw to refuse to say you're wrong when you're not wrong.

I am a democrat, but like others in my party I am sick over the cult of personality that has carried Obama to the nomination. To my eyes he is a cipher on which people impose all their own beliefs and hopes and plans. My husband, on the other hand, is very excited and positive about the Obama-Biden ticket. I can tolerate Joe Biden, but I do not think I can bring myself to vote for Obama. Nor can I vote for McCain. For the first time in my adult life I am tempted not to vote at all, but that seems wrong also. So for the moment my plan is to write in Bill Richardson, the man who I think is best suited to the job.

The kicker is that none of my angst will matter in the end anyway, because I live in a red state. :/

Obama grilled on whether surge cut Iraq violence | Politics | Reuters

You said yourself "there has been a significant decrease in violence". I would say that shows the surge helped.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

How do you figure this??? The viloence has been reduced. I'm not following your logic.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Another interesting link:

Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

The reduction in violence wasn't the purpose of the surge and is completely irrelevant to its success or failure! Go back and read what Bush said when he ordered it about why it was being done.

Of course the surge was a success IF the purpose of the surge was to reduce violence. But that wasn't the purpose at all. And the purpose hasn't been achieved, ergo, the surge was NOT a success.

Your state has a slim chance of going blue. By writing in Richardson -- who I liked very much as well and supported until it was clear he couldn't get the nomination -- you're supporting McCain.

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Reading is Fundamental.

I don't think it's a negative that Obama has developed a following. As far as people ascribing their own hopes and beliefs on him, Obama has said as much himself. Hope is not a very rational emotion. On the other hand, he has clearly embraced progressives values and worked hard to strengthen them. His ideals have not changed.

McCain, I believe, would be a huge disaster for this country. I do fear a McCain presidency. He is no friend to women; his economic policies would deeply aggravate our problems; his health care reforms would make the insurance industry very happy but deny many more Americans coverage; I believe he would nuke Iran and probably send troops to Georgia; and he seems quite determined to continue the "unitary executive" theory implemented by Bush's minions. McCain, I think, means the end of the American experiment.

I'll vote for Obama. Like you, I'm in a red state. Why can't we get rid of the electoral college?

"The premise of our strategy is that securing the Iraqi population is the foundation for all other progress. For Iraqis to bridge sectarian divides, they need to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. For lasting reconciliation to take root, Iraqis must feel confident that they do not need sectarian gangs for security. The goal of the surge is to provide that security and to help prepare Iraqi forces to maintain it. As I will explain tonight, our success in meeting these objectives now allows us to begin bringing some of our troops home."

Taken from his speech in Sep. 2007 -http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070913-2.html


Do you have a link to a different reference??

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

That's the speech he made when he needed to start backpedaling on the reasons for the surge. Here's the original speech, which makes it very clear that the purpose of the surge is to make room for political reconciliation and for the Iraqis to secure their own country. Neither of which have been achieved.

Link

A small part:

Utter failure on holding Iraqis to those benchmarks.

Reading this, I would say, yes, the surge has worked.
The most urgent priority for success in Iraq is security, especially in Baghdad. Eighty percent of Iraq's sectarian violence occurs within 30 miles of the capital. This violence is splitting Baghdad into sectarian enclaves, and shaking the confidence of all Iraqis. Only Iraqis can end the sectarian violence and secure their people. And their government has put forward an aggressive plan to do it.

Our past efforts to secure Baghdad failed for two principal reasons: There were not enough Iraqi and American troops to secure neighborhoods that had been cleared of terrorists and insurgents. And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have. Our military commanders reviewed the new Iraqi plan to ensure that it addressed these mistakes. They report that it does. They also report that this plan can work.

Now let me explain the main elements of this effort: The Iraqi government will appoint a military commander and two deputy commanders for their capital. The Iraqi government will deploy Iraqi Army and National Police brigades across Baghdad's nine districts. When these forces are fully deployed, there will be 18 Iraqi Army and National Police brigades committed to this effort, along with local police. These Iraqi forces will operate from local police stations -- conducting patrols and setting up checkpoints, and going door-to-door to gain the trust of Baghdad residents.

This is a strong commitment. But for it to succeed, our commanders say the Iraqis will need our help. So America will change our strategy to help the Iraqis carry out their campaign to put down sectarian violence and bring security to the people of Baghdad. This will require increasing American force levels. So I've committed more than 20,000 additional American troops to Iraq. The vast majority of them -- five brigades -- will be deployed to Baghdad. These troops will work alongside Iraqi units and be embedded in their formations. Our troops will have a well-defined mission: to help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs.""

From your post:
"A successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations. Ordinary Iraqi citizens must see that military operations are accompanied by visible improvements in their neighborhoods and communities. So America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.

To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq's provinces by November. To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country's economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis. To show that it is committed to delivering a better life, the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion of its own money on reconstruction and infrastructure projects that will create new jobs. To empower local leaders, Iraqis plan to hold provincial elections later this year. And to allow more Iraqis to re-enter their nation's political life, the government will reform de-Baathification laws, and establish a fair process for considering amendments to Iraq's constitution."

I think we did "our part" in cutting the violence.

I guess we just see it differently.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

Well, we disagree, since the purpose of the surge was to allow the Iraqi government space to accomplishment their benchmarks, which has utterly failed. America's troops have cut the violence, but that was not the purpose of the surge. It couldn't be any clearer that America's military has done its job but the surge itself has failed.

You can argue the other side, but it's unfair to say that Obama refuses to admit he's wrong, when it's very clear that he is not. The purpose of the surge -- reconciliation, etc. -- has NOT been achieved. If Americans fought and died on the shores of Omaha Beach but lost the battle, would you say that the purpose of the landing had been achieved? I wouldn't.

The surge reduced violence to the point that the Iraqi government had the space to restore such services as safe drinking water, trash pickup ect. The Iraqi government did none of these things. Moreover, Maliki is pursuing Sunni leaders throughout the country (remember the "sons of Iraq"?) and arresting them. This is not reconciliation.

Therefore, the surge, having accomplished none of its goals other than a reduction in violence, has failed.

If Obama had been *for* the surge, I wonder if the left would be cheerleading its utter effectiveness.

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm...."

Sorry, Obama supporters aren't quite as shallow as you'd like to believe. We're not Bushies, hurrahing everything he says, or McCainiacs, willing to drink the "He's a maverick!" kool-aid.

Go back and read. Most of us supporting Obama now were against Bush eight years ago and against the war six years ago. This isn't something new to us, as much as you'd like to believe it is.

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Reading is Fundamental.

And may I add, not members of the pseudo "support the troops" party whose candidate hasn't voted for pro-veteran legislation in years.

That's something that really should make you go hmmmmm

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

And my point was missed entirely.

Or is it just easier to pretend it's not true and try to lawyer it into something different?

I do not understand why people think that just because you are a Republican that you agree with Bush on everything (including the war).

If that is the thinking then ...Democrats must agree with Obama on FISA, etc that he has currently voted on. His stance on Russia/Georgia conflict. His position on sending even more troops than McCain to Afghanistan.

INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL POLICY AND UNDERSTANDING - Did the Surge Work?

Nor do I understand why people think just because one is a supporter of Senator Obama you agree with everything he says or does.

To paraphrase another poster "... things that make you go hmmmm..." huh?

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

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