So, I haven't posted here in ages. Actually, I probably haven't posted here since the last election.

But, I have been reading threads tonight and I am somewhat disconcerted to read that there are some Hillary supporters who would rather vote for McCain than Obama.

I really don't understand this at all. I'll admit, I was a Hillary supporter. I remain a big booster of her. But she isn't the nominee. Obama is.

I really don't understand how someone can support Hillary and think that McCain is the next best choice. The two are worlds apart on policy matters.

Powerline blog, which is a very rightwing blog and a blog that one would think would encourage Hillary supporters to defect to McCain country, addressed this disaffection for Obama by Clinton supporters.

I hate to agree with the Powerline blog on anything. But I have a hard time understanding how someone can be a hardline supporter of Clinton and then vote for McCain. I won't call the behavior "childish." I would like to know, however, what drives your decision? Are there issues that drive you? Or is it just "I like the guy, who I have never met and who I just know through the TV screen better." Because if it is the last, I'd ask you to reconsider. By all accounts, most people thought that they'd rather have a drink with George W. Bush than almost any other candidate during the last election. Look where that got us.

This election is about a lot more than who is likable. It is about the positions that they can be expected to adhere to when in the White House. Obama's will likely be more towards those that the Democrats hold dear; McCain's are going to those that the Republican's do.

If you supported Hillary, you should be naturally inclined towards Obama. McCain's positions should be an anathema to you.

Why aren't they? What is it about his current positions bother you and what is it about McCain's positions draw you?

If it is that you loved Hillary Clinton, ask yourself "WWHD." It isn't supporting McCain.

I will not vote for Obama,i will vite for McCAIn,because i feel he is a better person to run the country, I was a die heart hillary fan, but she not running so i will vote for the next best person.

People are finally realizing that there is very little difference between the 2 major parties. With either you will continue the America mindset of intervention. The wars will continue..they MIGHT take troops out of Iraq, but they will just move them to some other place (Afghanistan, Georgia, Iran, etc). Very little difference in foreign policy.

With McCain you know exactly where he stands. He will do what he says.
With Obama people do not know what to expect. He has not be around long enough.

I love, love, love Hillary Clinton. But Barack Obama is our nominee and I think he is great and will vote for him. I can understand feeling regret that Hillary wont get her chance but I don't understand holding it against Barack (or our country). He may not have as much experience as others but he does have good instinct and principle and will do much better than McCain could ever do.

I do however, despise the nastiness that some Barack supporters, spew toward Hillary. I don't like certain people but would never act toward them as some Barack supporters act toward Hillary and her supporters. My mom taught me better than that. She also taught me to think for myself. Thank goodness for that, as she was a die hard Republican. Because of her tolerance and love, all her children choose their own political party. We all choose the Democratic party.

That's ridiculous. Absolutely untrue.

Really? Like when he opposed torture before he favored it?
Like when he opposed the MLK holiday before he favored it?
Like when he supported the Confederate flag before he disfavored it?
Like when he was against warrantless wiretapping before he favored it?
Like when he was for, against, for, against, for the tax cuts?
Like when he was against off-shore drilling and now he's for it?
Like when he was against privatizing SS and now he's for it?
Like when he was for the troops, but against increased funding for them?

Give me a break, you know where McCain stands. He switches back and forth more than a traffic light.

Edit to add: Obama was also against warrantless wiretapping but he vote for FISA.
Obama now says ok to limited oil-drilling
Also you should read what was in the last bill for the funding for troops ..stuff Democrats put in for other things other than troops. No wonder some did not vote for it.


What I was meaning is that with foreign policy (a major part of our taxpayers money goes for) is that McCain says we need a present in Iraq that what he means. Obama says withdraw troops..one of the reasons is because he wants to move them to Afghanistan,and other places.

If you notice I was mainly dealing with foreign policy. How is Obama any difference than the mindset of intervention? He has been very vocal of what he thinks about Afghanistan, Russia/Gerogia conflict, etc.

It's funny that you mention that . I was just talking with DH the other night about a friend of ours who is running for a political position. He is a Democrat ( I still love him, tho ) I told DH I plan to ask him why he chose the democratic party. Not in a condescending way, but, in a way that will help me to understand how people choose between the two parties, but, I, like Forrestlayne, believe the parties are very much the same.

Listening to all the speakers at the DNC (and I'm sure the RNC to come) you can't help but be moved, and feel inspired. They speak of helping families and our military. They BOTH talk of this. I guess their difference is how they go about it. One wants to take from the haves and redistribute to the have nots, and the other wants to reward the haves, and inspire the have nots to be a haves. This is how I see it.

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Doing the right thing isn't always the same as doing the easy thing.

I agree. And he was wrong.

IF necessary as part of a comprehensive energy bill. Not as a cheap slogan or panacea, as McCain does.


I did read it. It was a very good bill. McCain spouts off on his support for troops, but when push comes to shove, he doesn't do it.

So in one small area McCain means what he says? We should stay in Iraq indefinitely?

No, you gave that as a supposed example of how the parties are alike. Which is absurd. If both parties agree that breathing is good for humans, that doesn't make them alike.

She rocks, doesn't she?

I'm very sorry.
Please check your PMs

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l/ l/ l/
Dont go through life,
GROW through life

Real eyes...realize...real lies.

John McCain, until this election cycle, would've been considered by conservatives to be on the left side of the right side... placing him closer to the overall middle than many Republicans.

Obama is considered to be on the left of the left, placing him squarely on the left.

Hillary at one time would've been left of left, but throughout her campaign as she contrasted herself with Obama, she created an image that was more on the right side of the left.... putting her closer to the overall middle.

So at the end of the day, people may perceive Hillary to be closer to McCain in terms of 'centrist' than they do Obama, despite the fact that both HC and BO are on the left side of the paper. Couple that with the negative spin the Obama camp put on HRC during the primaries (by necessity) and you may have some voters who feel disenfranchised by those now controlling the Democratic ticket.... and who see McCain as a few inches closer to them than Huckabee or Romney would ever have been.

Were I to not vote party line, I'd be more apt to defect in a presidential race than a congressional one, simply because of the powers allocated to the majority in the House and Senate, and the desire to see those powers fall to the party with which I align myself. Since the executive branch is a stand-alone, you may see more swing voters there.

I think, for many, the reasons for either not supporting Obama or supporting McCain are so varied that there is no one right answer. I think some of the Clinton supporters are/or have in the past been mainly Republican voters. Perhaps voters that were not entirely happy with the Republicans and who found something in Hillary Clinton that resonated with them. For many of these, the simple fact that she was a viable female candidate might have been the primary reason.

For some, it might be the fact that McCain has a military background and Obama does not. I keep hearing that ditzy Elizabeth Hasselbeck on The View, during previous election cycles, talking about how George Bush makes her feel safe. Funny he has the opposite affect on me.

Others have been waiting so long to see a woman as president and have invested so much of themselves in that, that letting go is just about impossible. The disappointment is so deep and so hurtful that they want to lash out at the person who won. There is no logic that will appeal to them. They will either come around on their own or they won't. And the more they feel slighted, the more they are badgered, the more they will dig in their heels and refuse to budge. After all, women didn't get the vote to begin with because of a bunch of weak willed women. They were an angry, smart, determined group, and they just kept going and going.
Most of the current group of Hillary die-hard supporters, (me included), will now, probably, never see a woman as president. And for many, that's more than a hard pill to swallow, it's a reason to mourn.

And of course the last, and unfortunately just about as big a reason as the others, is that Obama is a person of color. There are no polls that can determine how much of a factor this is. And it might turn out to be very minor, but I suspect it's not. Just like all these politicians caught with another women and lie about it, so will anyone who is polled about it. In fact, people are very good at lying to themselves about things like this, (we all know a few people like that don't we?). In a close race it might very well make the difference and there is no way of figuring out if it will or if it won't.

And I have to say, in all my years of voting, this is the first time I have felt such an immense emotional response to choosing a candidate to back. And my choice was made very subconsciously. When I went into the voting booth for the primary, for the first time in my life I really did not know who I was going to vote for until I saw myself voting for Hillary. I understood that she was not perfect, (who is?). But I couldn't not vote for her when the time came. I am always involved and have strong feelings but I am totally surprised at myself that I have felt such a huge sense of sadness and loss. I will not be voting for McCain, in spite of threats to do so on some of the other threads. But I still have some time to come to a place where I can vote for Obama without sobbing and maybe others are feeling like I do.

BTW this has been rather cathartic for me. Thanks for listening. Next time I want a couch to lay on. And a large box of tissues...lol..

Ah, I think I understand. I felt the same way about my candidate and swore I wouldn't vote for Senator Clinton if she won but I knew in my heart I would reach the point where I could and would. Such historic choices and rotten timing that "we" had to make the choice of one or the other.

On a lighter note, I'm still searching for a companion for the "man in the hat" picture for your collection.

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Ana
The Republicans have been putting lipstick on a pig for 8 years. Is a pitbull wearing lipstick an attempt to keep us from noticing the pig?

I couldn't agree more with both of these statements. But at the end of the day, I will vote for Obama, his obnoxious supporters notwithstanding, because I agree with the platform of the Democratic Party.

I read about a woman who went to the primaries with her mother. When they got home, her mother started crying because both had voted for Obama and her mother did not think that she would ever get another chance to vote for a woman.

With a heavy heart I will vote for Obama....although I do not think this is "his" time--just don't think he is "seasoned" enough--but definitely never even considered voting for McCain. Too much of what we have been dealing with for the last 8 miserable years. I have never designated myself with a party---I am listed as "declined to state" on all my voter registration papers (which means that I do not get to vote for some offices in the primaries unfortunately), but am decidedly more liberal than not. If I were so inclined as an HRC supporter to not vote for Obama, the worst I would do (which I would NEVER do---never missed even so much as a local bond election since the day I was old enough to vote) would be to NOT vote at all for that office--but never would I throw my vote to McCain. Just so anti-HRC platform to ever be able to justify that.

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"Well-Behaved Women SELDOM make history."Laurel Thatcher Ulrich


"Yesterday is but a vision, and tomorrow is only a dream. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a dream of hope." Anonymous

"Your candle does not lose it's light by lighting another candle" Generosity

Have the courage to be yourself.

DANNY !!!!!!!!!!!!!! WB. I'm not posting much on this unless it concerns some ignorant remark or lie related to homosexuality or abortion. Or, the odd, incindiary attempt to portray Obama as a threat to our national security. However, I saw this post and it brought back memories of a time when I really had some faith in the American people .... I lost that in 2004 and I doubt it will ever return.

NIGHTOWLRN!!! I've missed you. A small part of me has missed this board. Generally speaking though, I'm trying to avoid engaging in fights on message boards. I've lost the idea that I can change anything or any views on them.

I really appreciate that you remember me. It's fun seeing old names. The old "award" was a hoot. Good times, good times.

As far as this election goes, I'm hopeful. It truly is time for change. I thought Hillary would bring it. I still think she will through the Senate. I'm confident Obama will if elected.

If I have to spend another four years with a president who doesn't understand working class Americans, who thinks that might equals right, who supports peeping into things based on nothing more than vague suspicion based on persons' country of origin or anything else that they want to slap a label of "suspicious" on, who has no problem with holding people in limbo without the right to due process, who wants to pack the Supreme Court with more result-oriented justices who never saw a civil rights bill that they liked or a corporation which they didn't adore, I think that I'll check out of the message boards entirely. Who needs the stress?

Four years ago, when I last posted here, people talked about Bush like he was the next great coming of the Lord. Look where that got people who thought he seemed like a great guy. It perplexes me that people are still making decisions on who to vote for based upon who they think is the more upright person based upon media portrayals.

For those of you who were Hillary supporters who are talking about voting for McCain instead of Obama, I really think that you should examine the issue more closely. I appreciate those of you who are sorrowful for the fact that we may never get to vote for a woman again. I don't believe that is true any more. I think that Clinton really busted down some barriers even if she wasn't the nominee. The mere fact that Clinton has such strong support shows you that that there is no reason why another woman couldn't do the same. To say that she was unique really says, on some level, that other women couldn't do as well as her, and that she wasn't a usual woman. Now, don't mistake me, I'm not saying she was average. She was extraordinary. But there are a lot of extraordinary women, and we can see others come forward as well.

If you are looking at McCain, and you were a Hillary supporter, I'd take some time to ask myself what it was that attracted you to her. Hopefully, at least part of it was her message. Her positions on things. Obama is much more in line with her positions than McCain. He just is.

If you are voting strictly on who you like as a person more, I don't think you are voting on the right basis. I really liked Bill Clinton as a president. But I don't know that I particularly liked him as a person. He was vain glorious. Selfish. Self-destructive.

He was still a great president. And that is what we want. A great president.

McCain is certainly not a likeable guy, regardless of what the media portrays. He has a wicked temper. He apparently is very vengeful. He also has no fixed belief on much of anything.

There are two things that I finding appealing about McCain. I like his personal story. I admire his sacrifice during the Vietnam War. It isn’t a reason to vote for him, but it is admirable. I also feel some sympathy for him because he was so maligned by GWB during the last election, with GWB’s campaign spreading rumors that he had fathered an illegitimate black baby. This last, however, also informs me on reasons that I don’t like him. He is apparently willing to let that all go, and to engage in or at least to close his eyes to some similar tactics with Obama, and to embrace GWB to appease the far right. That’s just pretty disgusting to me. He just doesn’t have any integrity to me. He’s Dorian Gray. He is willing to become less of a person as long as his public image appeases the masses. I don’t respect that.

So whether I was voting purely on issues, which I am, or whether I was voting purely on who I thought was a better person, I’d vote for Obama. Or, at worst and I can't imagine things ever coming to this, I wouldn't vote. I was a Hillary supporter. I can say with confidence that anyone who believed in her and her views would vote for Obama. Just as she says.

The point you are missing is that for many of us there very likely will not be another presidential election with a woman running. I am on the young side of many of her more fervent supporters and should Obama have eight years in office, chances are good that many of us, me included, will not be around to see a woman in that position again. When my mother was born, women could not vote yet. My grandmothers were adults when the law was changed and so much else has changed in the years since I first voted. My husband has said for some time now, and for once he may be right, that there will be an AA male president before there is a woman.

So it may happen, it may not, but there will be a lot of us not there to make that trip to the polls if it does happen.

I guess where we disagree is that I think that we could see another presidental election where a woman is running in the next eight years. Four years ago, I didn't think I'd see a woman or a black as a major candidate. And I did.

Obama really came out of nowhere, didn't he. I had never seem him before the last convention. What's to say that we don't see a woman gain similar traction.

I'm not trying to downplay your sorrow. I think it's justified. I certainly hear it from my sister, who was devastated by Senator Clinton's loss. I just think that there is no reason to think that we couldn't see another woman, indeed perhaps Hillary Clinton herself, make a run in the future. She's only 60. In eight years, she'll still be younger than McCain is today.

So, I understand where you feel bad. Since I was a strong supporter of her too, I feel bad as well. But I don't see her as the last hope for a female candidate in my lifetime or even in the lifetime of my mother, who is turning 70. I prefer to see the positive fact that there are a lot of people (cough*my dad*cough) who supported her when I never would have believed they would have before she ran. And they will support another good woman candidate.

And good women candidates are out there. They are rising, rising, rising in state politics and being elected to Congress and being appointed to federal offices in increasing numbers.

Do you remember Ann Richards? She was limited by her times, I think. There are more Ann Richards out there. Hillary paved the way towards them being regarded as legitimate candidates for the highest office.

I'm 48. There will be a woman president before I die. If I'm wrong, you can see me on the dark side.